"Pedal Points"

[m1469]

In really working to understand the repertoire that I am studying, I am (finally) taking the time to look up any particular aspects of theoretical interpretion that I don't understand as well as I would like.

So, "pedal points" is one.  My question is, can a repeated note pattern, on the same note, be considered a pedal point ?  For example, in the "Andantino" meditation in Bb () in Mozart's Fantasy in c minor, K 475, we find a repeated "F" in 16th notes within the bass, starting in the 17th measure of that ... er ... section (  :- ) and continuing on for three more measures, then a 4 measure hiatus, then another 4 measures of the repeated "F" :

f f f f f f f f f ... (you get the idea)

So, yeah, I just want to know if that is a pedal point  , and I think I have another question that I don't know how to ask yet (but maybe not  ).



ps -- I am probably going to be filling this board with questions, hee hee, so anybody who wanted to go through our various theory books and study specific subjects, this could be a really good way to do that .  Also, maybe you would want to do a similar thing 

[m1469]

Okay, well, I have decided that if it's not a pedal point, I don't know what else it is  .  Maybe I will turn this thread into a documentary on pedal points ... now, finding pedal points that are willing to be interviewed might be difficult.

[counterpoint]

The main thing with  "pedal points" (orgelpunkt in german) is, that there should be some really harsh dissonances resulting of the combination from sustained (or repeated) bass note and independant chord progression.

In the given example from KV 475, the F of the bass is regular part of each of these chords, so this is not an orgelpunkt in a strict sense of the word.

[pianistimo]

tried to access a jstor article about mozart's own pedal piano.  i have some stuff around here about it somewhere.  will try to find it.

also, here's an article on the basic form and theory of the K 457:  you can see there is a lot of chromaticism in the other voices - even if the f stays constant for a while in the pedal.  it's as though he makes the pedal part of the middle (tenor) voice sometimes - and actually switches it around in places.

https://www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_97-01/984_sub_moral_appen_PDFs/chapter-5.PDF

[pianistimo]

say,m1469- do you mean measure 107?  the fantasy isn't really separated into separate movements, per se - but played all the way through as a fantasy of ideas strung together.  so - in my book - the measures don't start again - but continue.

i think youare correctm1469- that the bass note (which is hit first) is held (even if not indicated) by the pedal (or in this case - maybe finger!) and an 'effect' is given on our acoustic pianos that would be similar to mozart's pedal piano - where he allowed bass notes more 'grandness.'  maybe he was intimating this in the way he wrote these measures(also at measure 109).

i haven't played a pedal piano - so i don't really know what i'm talking about fully.  but, i would like to see one of these pedal pianos.  they sound very interesting. 

[m1469]

YIPPEEEE... thanks for the replies and information, counterpoint and pianistimo.  Yeah, I am talking about mm 107-110, and then mm 115-118.  I know these aren't actual movements like a sonata, but, I thought it was easiest to describe it as I did if not everybody has the piece all measured out.


(I will be back)

[daniloperusina]

Pianistimo, I think you misunderstand. It hasn't anything to do with using a pedal. It's a name for a specific harmonic event, where a bassnote is held, or repeated, for some length, sort of in disregard of what happens harmonically in the voices above.

The name "pedal point" derives from the organ, of course. See the german name above! A bass note that the organist is playing with his foot.

Maybe that place in Mozart can be considered a pedal-point. However consonant or dissonant the rest is, the bass is static. On the other hand, it all sounds very F7, with thirds ascending and descending, regular scale followed by chromatic.

The opening of Beethoven's Pastoral sonata. That's perhaps a more straightforward pedal-point.

[mcgillcomposer]

Pianistimo, I think you misunderstand. It hasn't anything to do with using a pedal. It's a name for a specific harmonic event, where a bassnote is held, or repeated, for some length, sort of in disregard of what happens harmonically in the voices above.

The name "pedal point" derives from the organ, of course. See the german name above! A bass note that the organist is playing with his foot.

Maybe that place in Mozart can be considered a pedal-point. However consonant or dissonant the rest is, the bass is static. On the other hand, it all sounds very F7, with thirds ascending and descending, regular scale followed by chromatic.

The opening of Beethoven's Pastoral sonata. That's perhaps a more straightforward pedal-point.

Good answer.

I should also add that this pedal, if you choose to call it such, is 'standing on the dominant'. As such, the entire section over the F bass anticipates a return to the tonic (Bb). Nothing major, but you should keep this in mind when you're playing...Mozart is STRESSING the anticipation of the tonic harmony.

[steve jones]

So, "pedal points" is one.  My question is, can a repeated note pattern, on the same note, be considered a pedal point ?

Absolutely, yes.

Though I guess it could also be considered an ostinato perhaps? Not sure.

But yeah, whether the note is sustained or repeated, it still plays the same harmonic function (often to destablize the harmony building up to a climatic cadence).

The opening of Scriabin's famous Op 8 No 12 etude is a fine example of this technique imo.

SJ

[mknueven]

Please excuse my quick reply since I have not had time enough to read all responses thoroughly.
I have always been a little confused about what pedal point meant - and sometimes thought it had to do with the actual pedal of the piano.

So then - after skimming this thread - it sounds almost like a suspension -if you are always holding that one note regardless of the rest of the notes in succession - is that true or not?
thanks

[imbetter]

a pedal point is when the tonic cord is repeated in the base while the tonic cord inverts in another voice.

[counterpoint]

If in doubt, ask aunt wikipedia 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedal_point

[mknueven]

thanks imbetter and counterpoint

So according to wikipedia - it does have somewhat an effect as a suspension, though not the same...