Technical exercise and advice requested

[m1469]

Hello, I am currently working on Rachmaninov's Prelude in b minor, Op 32 no 10.   I need any technical suggestions people could give me; perhaps you know of a technical excerise that would help me ?

In measure 48, we begin a fioritura group of notes, and my RH has been having problems in getting tense when using the fingering provided in my score, so I went ahead and changed it to what felt more comfortable to me and made much more sense to me (considering the passage work that comes before it). 

Let me tell you what I came up with :

                         f#b  ebef#  ef# bf#
RH (ascending) -- 3  5  3134   13  14

After hearing so many people rave about exercises and technical development in general, I went back to the books.  I slowly played through scales, arpeggios, octaves, thirds, sixths, chromatic scales, Pischna, Hanon, Schmitt, Czerny vol I and II of his selected piano studies, and then also Czerny's School of velocity, Op 299, various other people's works who are less known (why not ?) and then Brahms 51 exercises.  I also decided to play through some Bach just to see if I could find this precise figuration and fingering to go with it, but I just couldn't -- I couldn't find it anywhere except for in this precise piece and in this precise place within the piece, and to fit my specific hand and personal needs, too.

Am I missing something ?     What should I do ?  I mean, I could just practice that specific place in the Rach's music, but I feel pretty naughty doing that since I have obviously missed the boat somewhere else  .

Any help you can give me is greatly appreciated .

[dnephi]

I'll look into this and get back to you.

[m1469]

Okay, thanks  .

[mike_lang]

If you'll pardon my audacity in replying without having tested the fingering myself at the piano, it seems to me that the fingering that is in (my) score, 235 123 123532 521 321, actually facilitates the passage by grouping the the ascent into three sub-gestures, the first and third of which require a subtle, efficient supination of the wrist (à la Chopin 10-1). 

Perhaps once the positions are found, it would be helpful to rehearse the shifts (and rotation on the last pair) between F#3, B3, E4, and F#5, each with their corresponding finger from the above system.

Hopefully I have not retraced steps you have already taken.

Best,

Michael

[ramseytheii]

Hello, I am currently working on Rachmaninov's Prelude in b minor, Op 32 no 10.   I need any technical suggestions people could give me; perhaps you know of a technical excerise that would help me ?

In measure 48, we begin a fioritura group of notes, and my RH has been having problems in getting tense when using the fingering provided in my score, so I went ahead and changed it to what felt more comfortable to me and made much more sense to me (considering the passage work that comes before it). 

Let me tell you what I came up with :

                         f#b  ebef#  ef# bf#
RH (ascending) -- 3  5  3134   13  14

Yikes.  I think as a basic principle of fingering, apply Occam's Razor: the less movement, the better.  This one is jumping all over the place and seems unrelated to the musical phrase totally.  No offense but Yikes!

At the tempo, you can't reasonably expect 3 to leap over 5, especially at the interval of a fourth.  Also, the stretch from F# to B with 3 and 5 creates tension.  Then the thumb is being used way too many times for such a fast passage.  Let's try and consolidate more notes into fewer hand positions.

His fingering is written technically for large hands, but it also fits those with small hands who have long reaches between the fingers.  I met a girl with tiny hands, who could stretch from C to A with the second and third fingers.  3 to 4 could comfortably stretch a fourth, and uncomfortably a fifth.  To put it in perspective, I have large hands, but 3 to 4 for me is comfortable though I never use it only for a third, and my 2 to 3 can comfortably, though I never use it, stretch a fourth.  She has tiny hands with a big stretch.

So I don't know what kind of stretch you have, but you can use the thumb more economically if you happen to have a small stretch for instance:
1 2 5 1 2 3 1 2 3 5
OR
1 2 5 1 2 3 1 2 1 5
though it is dangerous with more thumbs.  I suppose you could try:
1 2 5 1 2 3 2 1 2 5
but it will make the delineation of the phrase more difficult (because you aren't starting each wave with the thumb).

I recommend practicing Rachmaninoff's fingering in creative ways until it feels comfortable, it is really the best for this passage.

Walter Ramsey

After hearing so many people rave about exercises and technical development in general, I went back to the books.  I slowly played through scales, arpeggios, octaves, thirds, sixths, chromatic scales, Pischna, Hanon, Schmitt, Czerny vol I and II of his selected piano studies, and then also Czerny's School of velocity, Op 299, various other people's works who are less known (why not ?) and then Brahms 51 exercises. 

I think that when - or if - you study technical exercises, you should not do it willy-nilly, but try and categorize them so you can refer to specific exercises for specific passages.  For this one, I would recommend Brahms 51 exercises nos. 8a and 8b, because they are specifically for stretching in between the fingers.

Walter Ramsey

[m1469]

If you'll pardon my audacity in replying without having tested the fingering myself at the piano, it seems to me that the fingering that is in (my) score, 235 123 123532 521 321, actually facilitates the passage by grouping the the ascent into three sub-gestures, the first and third of which require a subtle, efficient supination of the wrist (à la Chopin 10-1). 

Perhaps once the positions are found, it would be helpful to rehearse the shifts (and rotation on the last pair) between F#3, B3, E4, and F#5, each with their corresponding finger from the above system.

Hopefully I have not retraced steps you have already taken.

Best,

Michael

Thanks, Michael.  Well, I had been using this very fingering, actually, for about 3-4 years, and this one passage just never came for me.  It was very hit and miss and I did practice as you recommended, actually, but it's the tightness between the 2nd and 3rd fingers from f# to b in both octaves that always did me in.

I consulted with a wonderful teacher just recently who advised a special movement from the finger number 2 to 3 that did help to relieve the tightness, but in the upper octave, when I would do the same movement --except reach to the F# above with finger number 5, vs just to the "E" in the octave below-- it just didn't work for me.

So, I decided to stick with what I posted above, because that particular fingering never once causes tension for me (and it doesn't force my hand out of a more relaxed and natural position) if I use forearm rotations, or supination of the wrist, as you suggest.

I took this piece to a masterclass one time, and the master actually suggested that I completely skip one of the notes altogether and just go to the next (in order to avoid this tension).  Well, I just wasn't willing to do that in this case (I have been willing to do that in select chords if I can't reach all the notes, but this is different).  So, I guess it's a bit of a difficult passage.

Did you happen to listen to my recording attached to the original post ?  If so, how does it sound to you ?

Thanks .
m1469

[m1469]

Yikes.  I think as a basic principle of fingering, apply Occam's Razor: the less movement, the better.  This one is jumping all over the place and seems unrelated to the musical phrase totally.  No offense but Yikes!


Walter Ramsey

hee hee... yeah, I realize it seems a bit absurd  , but I think it works, actually.  It's not a fingering-type I have ever come up with in my life before, but I think it's rather .... charming, actually  .  The problem with starting with my thumb on the f# is that I can't easily achieve this considering the passage just before it -- so the thumb is kinda not quite an option in this scenario.  In this case I decided over sheer physical comfort rather than worrying about how much movement I was doing (just as long as it wasn't actually inhibiting me in any way).

Did you happen to listen to the recording attached to the bottom of the initial post ?  What do you think about the phrasing ?

Thanks for the suggestions and thanks for the exercise recommendations, I will take a look at them .

[lostinidlewonder]

The passage in question is actually measure 49, in Boosey+Hawkes edition anyway. and it is as Ramsey suggested. It is an arpeggio pattern and should feel like it with an open hand nice flattened fingers.

m1469 your fingering offered: 3531341314 has too many jump movements for the passage in my opinion. 353  the last 3 is a jump ok this is acceptable but being followed by another one I believe that the 14 is pushing it too far. I would love to actually see your hands play it with that fingering it would be a mystery !

[m1469]

I would love to actually see your hands play it with that fingering it would be a mystery !

Well, you know lostinidle, I would love that, too  .  And, of course, I am a mysterious woman  .  Okay, but seriously.  I did feel a bit unorthodox when I first decided to change everyhting around, but I was genuinely frustrated and decided to completely wipe the slate clean and treat this passage as though I were a complete beginner with no preconcieved ideas whatsoever, only aiming for comfort and ease.  Nobody came here, knocked down my door and arrested me as it turns out, so the fingering stuck  :-.

That brought up a few issues in my mind, actually, most of which I won't expound on at the time.  But, I did think -- what makes it 'too many jumps' if it sounds and works better than ever before ?  I realize that it seems like it's not the most efficient use of my hand, however, it is !  I am spending a lot less energy, actually, doing it this way.  So, I thought, if it's easy for me and it sounds good -- who from the audience is really going to know that passage well enough to know what I am doing ?  Who will even notice ?  I suppose that would depend on who the audience is, to some extent.  But, if it came off cleanly and beautifully in a performance, why would anybody take issue with it ?

I don't know -- it's just stuff worth pondering, in my opinion, since that would completely over-haul my entire piano-playing-attitude.  I mean, what if I ONLY did what was easy and didn't waste time trying to adopt conventional methods of doing things when/if I have tried them and they didn't actually work for me, or if what I thought of came more easily for me ?  Why limit myself when nobody else is going to come play the piano for me ?

Thanks for the comments and for the measure number correction -- I was not sure if mine were entirely accurate or not (but I went back and checked and they are accurate according to me) -- or maybe Boosey (and Hawkes, too  ) is counting the pickup measure as meaure number one ?  I didn't.  In any event, I guess we all found our way .

So, I may experiment some more -- but I may just end up doing exactly what I am doing currently.  Once our computer becomes capable, I will see if I can't post a video  .

[cmg]

I, too, have the Boosey & Hawkes edition.  The groupings of 235 123 123 seem to be the most rational and effortless way to play this passage.  I really don't understand your problem with it, unless it's tension. 

Use a flat, open, relaxed position and the notes fall right into place.  It's very pianistic, actually.  In practicing, isolate each grouping.  Feel that position in your hand.  Freeze-frame and relax. Then shift to the next.  And so on.  With good rotational technique you can easily connect the groupings as the tempo is increased.  Plus, you have the damper pedal to help you out. 

I wonder why you intellectualize technical issues so much.  This passage is really not that challenging, particularly compared to other repertoire you say you play.  How do you manage Chopin if this gives you so much trouble?  Stop thinking and let your hand/body tell you the answer.  Be mindful of the tension in your hand.  If it's there, stop.  Release it.  See if your fingering is taxing your hand to the degree that tension is creeping in.  Most tension arises from attempting wide stretches the hand can't accommodate.  You'll usually feel this tension in your thumb initially.  See what you can do about re-fingering the passage.  There's ALWAYS a workable solution for any hand.  That's why God gave us "rotation technique."

And, the best "exercises" you'll ever find are in Chopin Op. 10 & 25.  If I were you, I'd dedicate my time to mastering them.  Every problem and its solution is posed there.  Just practice slowly without tension for months and months and Chopin will show you the way.   

[m1469]

Well, yes, tension is precisely the problem as I mentioned earlier. 

I have decided to take a couple of photos, which looks more relaxed to you ?

1.  Suggested fingering (with a "nice, open, flat hand position") :



2.  My magical fingering (with a truly relaxed and natural hand position) :



Okay, granted, I am not actually sitting at my piano, but the idea is similar.  How can I possibly, truly "relax" within that first position ? It's actually not physically possible.  As I said, there was a way that somebody showed me to be able to use the same fingering while remaining more relaxed, but I still find what I wrote up above to work better for me.

[m1469]

This passage is really not that challenging, particularly compared to other repertoire you say you play.

Oh, like what ?   

[henry_v]

m1469,

I think your are using, unfortunately, a wrong approach to solve this problem. I can hardly imagine this fingering being usefull in a very fast tempo (still being able to hear all intonations clearly and with a natural dynamic phrase), I am sorry.
After reading your post I've studied this passage for 10 min. to see what the problem is. I think there are several options regarding fingering, the one being written in my score (2 3 5 1 2 3 1 2 3 5) seems to be at the end, the most natural. Problem is, this fingering needs a rather complex movement of hand/arm (it's mainly about rotation and a kind of circular movement of the hand) in order to play it easy or effortless.
In the beginning it seems to be far more easier to play it with your fingering, because it doesn't need any kind of flexibel movement of the hand, just changing of positions. Unfortunatly your fingering will limit in speed, accuracy, quality of tone etc.
I can think of one other option: 2 3/4 5 1 2 3 2 3 1 3/4/5, but still being inferior to the first one.

You talk alot about playing with comfort/ease in general. Of course, this is one of our goals we want to achieve, and it's necessary for natural playing and it's the ultimate test case to see if one has truly mastered a passage. But don't confuse playing comfortably with using tricks and thus avoiding the problem.
It's also not true that if one can play a passage with ease at a slow tempo that one can play it at any tempo. This is only true if one uses the right technique to play the passage (at any speed). You can be playing with 'great ease' (or at least the feeling of ease) at slow tempo using a wrong technique. 

In this case, you can play perfectly the passage with the fingering written in the score (even if you have smaller hands). I've seen  the photo's of your hands you posted. There you play it like a chord. It's not about that, because when I play the second note with my 3rd finger, my second finger isn't in contact with the F#, because of rotation of my hand in order to put my 5th finger at the right place (on the E).  This way, it will be much easier playing the passage, using a the most logical fingering.
Unfornately, to truly understand the movement, someone (probably a good teacher) has to show it to you.

I hope all this is not too confusing. Hope it will help you.

                                             

[m1469]

m1469,

Unfornately, to truly understand the movement, someone (probably a good teacher) has to show it to you.

Thanks for posting in, henry.  I have figured that a truly good teacher would just be able to point me to an exercise that would fix the problem (probably Hanon ?), since all problems can be solved and are found through exercises.  So, I thought, why bother my teacher at all ?  Why not just ask for the specific exercise that many people must have gone through and remember in their exercise training ?

I think the problem is that what is most "logical" for one person is not necessarily logical at all for another.  And what is logical in one context is not necessarily logical in another.  If the problem is that I am caused tension when trying to go from 2 to 3, even if I am not touching them at the same time (and, at tempo I have little time to "relax" between them and actually MUST stay "stretched"), then perhaps I ought to stop doing that ?  In this case, yes, I will avoid the tension because it's not something I am willing to try to get used to anymore -- I have spent enough time doing that and it's not gotten me hardly anywhere as far as I am concerned.

In the first photo above, I was simply displaying what my hand looks like when/if I follow what was most logical for another person :  "nice, open, flat hand" -- it isn't logical for me, and apparently it's not logical for you, either.

I still consider myself to be exploring.

[cmg]

Well, yes, tension is precisely the problem as I mentioned earlier. 

I have decided to take a couple of photos, which looks more relaxed to you ?

1.  Suggested fingering (with a "nice, open, flat hand position") :



2.  My magical fingering (with a truly relaxed and natural hand position) :



Okay, granted, I am not actually sitting at my piano, but the idea is similar.  How can I possibly, truly "relax" within that first position ? It's actually not physically possible.  As I said, there was a way that somebody showed me to be able to use the same fingering while remaining more relaxed, but I still find what I wrote up above to work better for me.

Okay, first you have terrific hands, m'lady.

But, you're missing the point on tension.  I think DannyElfboy wrote extensively on this some many months ago, explaining that you must "contract" muscles -- as in your spread-finger photo -- to make the fingers do their work.  But as soon as that particular, specific job is done, you must let go of the contraction and snatch a miliisecond of non-contracted "relaxation."  If you hang on to that contraction, you get tension.  Yes, that odious word and condition.

So, with the passage in question, you must realize that any contracton to initially set the hand to depress the keys, is a mini-burst of tension.  Right?  Play a chord and you need firm fingers, but the instant you strike the keys with that perfect shot, you let the hand "relax," but not so much that it collapses like a rag doll's hand.  Just enough to rid yourself of the initial muscle contraction.  Then, almost instantaneously, you let the weight of the hand/arm/shoulder/butt/legs/flip-flops move into the keyboard.  In other words, relax.

Now, use this notion on each of those Rach Prelude note groupings.  Not all of them make you extend your hand so fully, so the next group is where you let the contraction/tension dissipate.  Look, Miss m1469, try Opus 10/1 (Chopin) for a few minutes at the keyboard.  The principle you need to explore is embodied in every bloody measure of that Etude.  And the secret to making the big stretches as tension-free as possible, is ROTATION.

Well, this is meant to be helpful, but re-reading it, I sound like a lunatic.  Sorry.  Good intentions nonetheless.  

[cmg]

p.s. that spread-finger photo of your hand wouldn't look that locked and rigid if you had shown us a video.  You see, that spread position is part of a rotational movment.  In the photo, you've frozen the worst aspect of it.  In movement, you wouldn't be locked into the torturous grasp in that way.  It would be a fluid, flow-through of a rotational gesture over a rather large span.  Not locked into position like some arpeggio-machine thingie.

Comprenez?

[m1469]

But, that is the point, I have practiced it as you are talking about for years.  And, I am perfectly aware that there will be times when we must be firm in order to play, and then relax -- how many repetitions I wonder did I do like this ?  As it turns out, it actually takes very little weight or effort to depress the piano keys so I only use another "technique" when I have no other choice.

Anyway, in this case, I can do both ways slowly, but only one way quickly.  And, one of these ways I could probably do all day long (why fight that ?), while the other I can hardly do three times in a row (as is required) and it is much more labored (why force that ?).

So far I have not heard anybody actually complain about my recording.  There are actually things I might say about it, but either people are trying to be nice or they have nothing to say.  :-


btw -- I am glad that you like my hands 

[henry_v]

Thanks for posting in, henry.  I have figured that a truly good teacher would just be able to point me to an exercise that would fix the problem (probably Hanon ?), since all problems can be solved and are found through exercises.  So, I thought, why bother my teacher at all ?  Why not just ask for the specific exercise that many people must have gone through and remember in their exercise training ?

I think the problem is that what is most "logical" for one person is not necessarily logical at all for another.  And what is logical in one context is not necessarily logical in another.  If the problem is that I am caused tension when trying to go from 2 to 3, even if I am not touching them at the same time (and, at tempo I have little time to "relax" between them and actually MUST stay "stretched"), then perhaps I ought to stop doing that ?  In this case, yes, I will avoid the tension because it's not something I am willing to try to get used to anymore -- I have spent enough time doing that and it's not gotten me hardly anywhere as far as I am concerned.

In the first photo above, I was simply displaying what my hand looks like when/if I follow what was most logical for another person :  "nice, open, flat hand" -- it isn't logical for me, and apparently it's not logical for you, either.

I still consider myself to be exploring.

About exercises, I don't know how to answer that one, since I've never used them. I think that some Chopin etudes (op. 10 nr. 1 or 25 nr. 1 for example) will give you all the technique you need for this passage. However, I am quite sure that the 'secret' lies in the way moving (although as I said before, it's not simple, but rather complex and difficult to understand from writing).
You say that at tempo you have little time for relaxing between the two notes (F# and B). You need  a completely different sensation. To describe it I must go into detail and I am afraid it will be even more confusing. Anyway, why play strictly legato? why not more 'jump' from one note to another?
If it's still not working, I gave you my second  fingering option (inferior to the original one but still being more appropriate than yours I think).

And yes, I completely agree with you that what is logical for one person may be not for another person. With 'wrong approach to solve the problem' in my previous post' I was referring to the fingering you use, not to your question about exercises. You can use exercises for this problem, or better, making an exercise yourself out of this problem/passage.
I still think your first fingering will not get you there, the fingering written in the score will not give you any tension, unless you are doing something wrong.
If possible post a video, that will point out many things more clearly.

[cmg]

Your fiortura sounds fine!  A little notey, but you can play this!  I tried the passage myself (haven't played this in some time) and realized my hand instinctively did this:

124 123 123 532 521 432.  That way I'm prepared for the next round with the same fingering beginning 124, not 2.  I like, personally, the 124 because it sets up my rotational mechanism immediately.  My hand isn't big either.  Can play a 9th, just barely reach a 10th.

[cmg]

Anyway, why play strictly legato? why not more 'jump' from one note to another?

That's the ticket!  Forget the strictly legato part.  Look.  Try practicing the passage WITH pedalling.  Forget finger legato.  Let the pedal do the work.  Just relax with it.  You certainly have the technique to play this.  Your brain is getting in the way.  Be sloppy (pedal) and stupid for a few minutes, will you?

p.s. if you will note in Op 10/1 there are several bars that demand "jumping."  Don't think in such a Bachian technical way about technique here.  God gave you a pedal, now please experiment with it.

[m1469]

Be sloppy (pedal) and stupid for a few minutes, will you?

hmmmm ..... well, only if there is chocolate icecream involved .

[cmg]

 

[m1469]

 


(pssst ... *whispers* what are we looking at  )

[m1469]

About exercises, I don't know how to answer that one, since I've never used them. I think that some Chopin etudes (op. 10 nr. 1 or 25 nr. 1 for example) will give you all the technique you need for this passage. However, I am quite sure that the 'secret' lies in the way moving (although as I said before, it's not simple, but rather complex and difficult to understand from writing).
You say that at tempo you have little time for relaxing between the two notes (F# and B). You need  a completely different sensation. To describe it I must go into detail and I am afraid it will be even more confusing. Anyway, why play strictly legato? why not more 'jump' from one note to another?
If it's still not working, I gave you my second  fingering option (inferior to the original one but still being more appropriate than yours I think).

And yes, I completely agree with you that what is logical for one person may be not for another person. With 'wrong approach to solve the problem' in my previous post' I was referring to the fingering you use, not to your question about exercises. You can use exercises for this problem, or better, making an exercise yourself out of this problem/passage.
I still think your first fingering will not get you there, the fingering written in the score will not give you any tension, unless you are doing something wrong.
If possible post a video, that will point out many things more clearly.

Yes, I tried to post a video, actually (which could only be done in slow-motion because it's just my webcam) but for some reason it doesn't come out.  Obviously the Chopin's etude would only apply if I used the original fingering.

btw -- what, exactly, makes a fingering inferior to another ?  The number of rotations involved ?  The tension felt ?  The sound produced ?

Please, feel free to describe in detail.  I think that it actually can be clear.

[henry_v]

So far I have not heard anybody actually complain about my recording.  There are actually things I might say about it, but either people are trying to be nice or they have nothing to say. 

It's difficult to judge your recording because you completely isolated the passage (in all aspects). However, to me, it sounds quite mechanical (partly the piano maybe, are you using a digital?) and irregular (both in tone quality and rhythm, even if you play on a digital), and at least didn't convince me that the fingering you use is a fine one. It may sound worse when you use the original fingering written in the score, therefore I think you are using a wrong technique/way of moving.

By the way, nobody is forcing you playing in a laboured way, on the contrary, I try to explain that this passage can be played in a very natural, fluid way, if you know how to do it.

But may I ask you, are you truly satisfied the you play it? If so, then, what's the problem?

[m1469]

Where are my irregularities, exactly ?  I am not disagreeing, I just think that if they are there, they can be pinpointed (as a matter of fact, I can hear some myself -- but don't you think we would be hearing the same thing ?).  And, I am curious what you mean by mechanical AND irregular ?  That's a bit of an odd and normal description to me.

And, no, I am not *completely* satisfied with my playing, yet.  Nor was I before, which is why I changed.

[cmg]

Where are my irregularities, exactly ?  I am not disagreeing, I just think that if they are there, they can be pinpointed (as a matter of fact, I can hear some myself -- but don't you think we would be hearing the same thing ?).  And, I am curious what you mean by mechanical AND irregular ?  That's a bit of an odd and normal description to me.

And, no, I am not *completely* satisfied with my playing, yet.  Nor was I before, which is why I changed.

Oy vey . . . your turn at bat, Henry.  But I'd suggest insisting that our dear friend take a break from this Prelude, kick back and fix herself a nice chocolate sundae.  Then a cool bath.  Then a big martini.

[henry_v]

Yes, I tried to post a video, actually (which could only be done in slow-motion because it's just my webcam) but for some reason it doesn't come out.  Obviously the Chopin's etude would only apply if I used the original fingering.

btw -- what, exactly, makes a fingering inferior to another ?  The number of rotations involved ?  The tension felt ?  The sound produced ?

Please, feel free to describe in detail.  I think that it actually can be clear.

For the chopin studies, yes, try to use his fingering, then you will discover the kind of technique Chopin had in mind.

About fingering, what is important at the end, for me, is the sound. Well, talking about sound is a very, very complicated matter, and achieving a good sound or the best sound possible for a piece or passage will take a lifetime of study and is very difficult to talk about.
In this case, your fingering has many unnecessary jumps (from B-5 to E-3 and F#-3 to B-1) and involves much use of the thumb, very short one after another.
So, if you want to achieve fluidity, velocity and a legatissimo sound (what I think this passage is about, very shortly, and what btw also is indicated in the score), that fingering would make it very difficult and will not help you achieving it.
If one faces a technical problem or feels any kind of tension, sometimes using a different fingering can be a solution.
Anyway, I still think the meaning of the passage will dictate you the technique and in this case the fingering.

[m1469]

Oh, okay.  I will switch to what you are talking about.  It's crystal clear to me now.  Thanks.

[m1469]

Is this better ?

[henry_v]

Where are my irregularities, exactly ?  I am not disagreeing, I just think that if they are there, they can be pinpointed (as a matter of fact, I can hear some myself -- but don't you think we would be hearing the same thing ?).  And, I am curious what you mean by mechanical AND irregular ?  That's a bit of an odd and normal description to me.

And, no, I am not *completely* satisfied with my playing, yet.  Nor was I before, which is why I changed.

Yes, they surely can be pinpointed. Also I can explain what I mean with mechanical and irregular (I am rather glad you ask it).
about rhythmical irregularities, I think anyone could hear that you make a jump (actually the ones I described in my previous post) from B to E for example. In order to have no false accent on the E, you have to slow down, or breath, or however you want to call it to prepare the E. In this context, you have no time. So, whether it will sound irregelar (which isn't always wrong, but  in this case is) regarding fluidity of the movement or in quality of tone. that's one example.
With mechanical playing I simply mean that I hear playing without dynamic or musical/artistic intonation.
Let's now analyse the beginning of the passage. You can divide it into three segments: F# B E - B E F# - E F# B F#. So which one is the most important? which one is the most expressive? for me  obviously the last one (E F#B F#). Why? The passage is like a wave, and culminates here (on the last F#). Btw look, at the intervals,  B -F# is the largest one, right?. Therefore, for me, the most important interval and most expressive one. For that reason, the composer marked a crescendo until F# (highest one) and even put an accent (in my version).
In order to play this crescendo of the last segment really fluid, effective and fast one cannot change position here (which you have to do using your fingering).
In your recording, I hear wrong accents (for example F#, the low one, which should be softest, as indicated in the socre). I don't hear one fluid line and it sounds to me quite arbitrary regarding the dynamic shape. That's what I mean with mechanical playing.
Actually by saying this, I'm not judging anything about your musical capabilities, please don't get me wrong. But my experience is, that when it comes to play difficult passages, most people lose this kind of logic construction, which for me remains the most important, because it's  the basic foundation of a musical concept.

[henry_v]

Is this better ?

Is there any difference? Sorry, I didn't notice 

[m1469]

.

[ramseytheii]

Well, yes, tension is precisely the problem as I mentioned earlier. 

I have decided to take a couple of photos, which looks more relaxed to you ?

1.  Suggested fingering (with a "nice, open, flat hand position") :

If it works for you nobody can tell you it doesn't, but remember just because it says 2 3 5 doesn't mean you have to be able to play all three fingers at the same time like a chord.  YOu have to be able stretch between one and the other, not play a chord!

In this I remember the words of F. M. Alexander, there is no such thing as posture, but acture.    To paraphrase, no such thing as position, only action.

Walter Ramsey

[henry_v]

I made one mistake in my previous post: I wrote "... am your judging musical capabilties...'' . it must be '' ... am not judging your musical...''. I have already modified it. Sorry if this was offending to you, it was just a mistake.

[henry_v]

Oh, well, one very obvious difference is that the file is smaller and another difference is that the second file has a "2" in it

Still I cannot hear the difference 

is this a test case?    Did I pass the test? 

I just rather trust my ears than you modifying some numbers

[counterpoint]

Let me tell you what I came up with :

                         f#b  ebef#  ef# bf#
RH (ascending) -- 3  5  3134   13  14

What about

124 245 123 532 321 542  ?  (this starts with 1st finger on f#)

[opus10no2]

Hey m1469, knowing you're a tall woman( good thing  ) I wonder what your hand size/span is, after seeing your pics.

[m1469]

Still I cannot hear the difference 

is this a test case?    Did I pass the test? 

 

I just rather trust my ears than you modifying some numbers

However, despite the sound, if I modify my finger numbers it would greatly please you  .

[henry_v]

However, despite the sound, if I modify my finger numbers it would greatly please you  .

Haha, for sure  ,
no, to tell you the truth, it completely doesn't matter for me with which fingering you use, even if you play it with your nose or whatever...
The only thing what really matters is music. Problem is, my ears are quite sensitive, so I can directly hear with which fingering one plays, since all the fingers are different and produce different kind of sounds. So these things work together, since music and technique cannot be separated.

So leave that 'despite the sound' (did you actually read/understand my post? it is about the sound as I pointed ) out and we agree perfectly with each other 

[m1469]

The only thing what really matters is music. Problem is, my ears are quite sensitive, so I can directly hear with which fingering one plays, since all the fingers are different and produce different kind of sounds. So these things work together, since music and technique cannot be separated.

Well, of course, I will want to test that, too  !!

So leave that 'despite the sound' (did you actually read/understand my post? it is about the sound as I pointed ) out and we agree perfectly with each other 

hee hee... well, actually, yes I did understand the concepts in your post, but I am going to go back through and delve into the specifics.  I listened to a recording of me playing this awhile ago, using the suggested fingering, and there were some of the same interpretational problems (as well as a number of other problems, too).  So, I 'get' that some fingerings won't necessarily help the overall idea, but even when I was using the fingering suggested, it was all I could do (mostly) to just get through the passage somewhat musically unscathed. 

Some of what you are talking about I had already noticed in my own recent recording and agree with right away (I hadn't ever actually recorded it yet) -- however, some of it I am going to need to listen to again with what you say specifically in mind and see if I really agree with (what you say you are hearing).  Whatever the case, at this point I feel like I have a little more control with it and that is really going to have to factor in for my decisions about what I can do with that "control" -- if I can't play it at all, then that's not going to work  .

I was thinking about this during my choir rehearsal  , and I have decided that I will take advice, but ultimately I really am going to trust my own ears, my own body, my personal needs -- even if it seems absurd and everybody disagrees.  I don't really have a whole lot of other choices at the moment.  The rest, I will just do the best that I can -- if something is not working, or if, as I develop musically, something just doesn't fit my concept anymore, then I will grow out of that and change it -- I know myself that well at least.  I think I am ready to just trust that and move forward .

So, thanks for your comments .

[m1469]

In this I remember the words of F. M. Alexander, there is no such thing as posture, but acture.    To paraphrase, no such thing as position, only action.

Walter Ramsey

Thanks for the reminder, Walter  

[lostinidlewonder]

It is amazing how many ideas come forward when we have pictures to look at! Pictures can describe piano hands a lot easier than words but still is no substitute for video, which is no substitute for being there in person. So we have sorta good stuff to work with.

The only comment I have to say is that the spread in the first picture the 235 does not have to be covered all simultaneously by all three fingers. In fact the rotation that is described in posts is a subtle half circle anticlockwise motion which is then followed by a quite stable position where our hand does not need to move too much, returns and repeats. Easily said but the exact motion must fit your hand personally so I find it useless to try to explain this further in words without things getting confusing.

We must always play groups of notes with one motion of the hand, so the entire group of 16 notes should feel as two systems, one going up and the other returning, and the fingerings you use should encourage this, if it is many singular movments then you have a lot more to conrol. Yes you will gain mastery with it, you can do so with practically any logical fingering, but we must strive for the most efficient. Sometimes this needs to be demonstrated, and the EXACT way to play the fingering has to be coached. But you can always find it with persistence and question, this thread is a good idea to solve your problem.

And in the recordings you are giving small pauses each reptition before you hit the lowest note F# . Is this ideal I wonder? Also you should start a lot softer at the beginning strike out at the highest note then return to more gentle notes. Of course if you are neglecting dynamics thats ok!

One suggestion for fingering the downward movment of the figure could be:

5(highest note) 21 421 321  this encourages the control of the decresendo. You have to ensure that the fingerings you choose give you enough control to the volume.

[ramseytheii]

It is amazing how many ideas come forward when we have pictures to look at! Pictures can describe piano hands a lot easier than words but still is no substitute for video, which is no substitute for being there in person. So we have sorta good stuff to work with.

The only comment I have to say is that the spread in the first picture the 235 does not have to be covered all simultaneously by all three fingers. In fact the rotation that is described in posts is a subtle half circle anticlockwise motion which is then followed by a quite stable position where our hand does not need to move too much, returns and repeats. Easily said but the exact motion must fit your hand personally so I find it useless to try to explain this further in words without things getting confusing.

You said that much better than I could!  It's not a chord or a position, but a movemeny, a rotation that you describe.

"No position, but action!"

Walter Ramsey

[henry_v]

Well, of course, I will want to test that, too  !!

hee hee... well, actually, yes I did understand the concepts in your post, but I am going to go back through and delve into the specifics.  I listened to a recording of me playing this awhile ago, using the suggested fingering, and there were some of the same interpretational problems (as well as a number of other problems, too).  So, I 'get' that some fingerings won't necessarily help the overall idea, but even when I was using the fingering suggested, it was all I could do (mostly) to just get through the passage somewhat musically unscathed. 

Some of what you are talking about I had already noticed in my own recent recording and agree with right away (I hadn't ever actually recorded it yet) -- however, some of it I am going to need to listen to again with what you say specifically in mind and see if I really agree with (what you say you are hearing).  Whatever the case, at this point I feel like I have a little more control with it and that is really going to have to factor in for my decisions about what I can do with that "control" -- if I can't play it at all, then that's not going to work  .

I was thinking about this during my choir rehearsal  , and I have decided that I will take advice, but ultimately I really am going to trust my own ears, my own body, my personal needs -- even if it seems absurd and everybody disagrees.  I don't really have a whole lot of other choices at the moment.  The rest, I will just do the best that I can -- if something is not working, or if, as I develop musically, something just doesn't fit my concept anymore, then I will grow out of that and change it -- I know myself that well at least.  I think I am ready to just trust that and move forward .

So, thanks for your comments .

You're welcome 

Whatever choice we make will always be dependant of many other things. So, Therefore, ultimately, you (and only you) have to make your own choices, since you are responsible for them (as you already pointed).
However, my aim is not to change your fingering or whatever, but rather to make you aware of some things I wasn't completely sure you were.
I am pretty sure you are on the right way asking people for advice (whether it is on the net or in real life).
Good luck! 

[m1469]

So, how about all of you get on YOUR videos and start showing me what you are talking about if it's so difficult to explain and videos are far better than photos.

Now, I have made a few videos that I have transported to "putfile."  They are working for me now when I just click them (they weren't before), so I hope that they will work for you, too. If there is no image for you when just clicking the link, then you will actually have to DOWNLOAD the file (if you scroll down below where the image is SUPPOSED to be, there is the option to download).  They are not big files so it shouldn't take that long.  

1.  

https://media.putfile.com

The first set of notes with the following fingering :  35 3(14) -- I will actually play the first set of three notes, however, as you will see, after playing the second "3," my hand is perfectly set up and even resting naturally on the f#(4) and b(1).

Also, no matter what, each individual note will have at least one individual rotation (however small) and sometimes two, as well, the inertia from the 5 to the second 3 is caused by the same motion as started the passage; I am just carrying it through and over with a full wrist supination and then a rotation back to the "e" with my 3rd finger (which it would have on it's own anyway).  

The problem, I realize, is that the motion between finger 5 and 3 will need to be very quick to keep the sound even (which, I am not convinced NEEDS to be the case since this is a color passage and is not in strict time -- I will listen to some recordings and see).

2.  

https://media.putfile.com

This is the final set of notes; everything leading into the full wrist supination and everything afterward.  This is starting where I left off in the first one -- 13414.  Again, the motion from the first three notes is carried over into the motion of the next two notes and therefore, I don't know that I would call it a separate motion.  (What is separate motion, anyway ?  Shouldn't everything be ultimately connected ?) Each individual note has its own rotation, as well.  This group carries the same potential "problem" as the first did, as far as keeping the sound 'even' over the distance travelled by the hand.

3.  

https://media.putfile.com

The entire ascending passage -- in one smooth motion .  I don't think any of this LOOKS awkward at all.

Now, I will gladly take the need to move faster, but relaxed, over the need to deal with tension and note inaccuracies.  As you can see my hand never struggles with incorrect fitting.  The thing that will matter most, if I can do both fingerings equally comfortably, is the sound that is produced, as henry was talking about.


*off to rehearsal* 

[henry_v]

Thanks for posting some videos, m1469  .
It's very interesting to see your hands moving and it explains a lot to me. I have one very important (at least for me) question about that: do all your movements arise from a musical concept? Is it really the musical/artistical idea  that dictates to you what your hands should do or how they should move?

In short, I believe that there are no hard things in piano playing (at least technically). The way hands/fingers act at the keyboard (visible or invisible) gives us a lot of information about what is in the mind.
Generally, what I see is that you do a lot of movement for the sake of moving. You talk alot about rotation (this can be a very misleading word, I think we mean all something different by it), is that what you are doing? Why? Does it help you (doing it this way)?
I am very curious, did some teacher show this to you, or did you do it from yourself?

Please, try to understand that I am not out to critisize you in any way, but I have to say that this way of practising/playing looks kind of strange to me, and explains me alot about the problems you speak.
Unfortunately I cannot make a video of myself, showing it to you how to play it, but I will go into detail very soon, explaining my way of doing things. I really hope I can help you and give you some information to think about.

Anyway, thanks again for showing your video 

[m]

In measure 48, we begin a fioritura group of notes, and my RH has been having problems in getting tense when using the fingering provided in my score, so I went ahead and changed it to what felt more comfortable to me and made much more sense to me (considering the passage work that comes before it). 

Let me tell you what I came up with :

                         f#b  ebef#  ef# bf#
RH (ascending) -- 3  5  3134   13  14

After hearing so many people rave about exercises and technical development in general, I went back to the books.  I slowly played through scales, arpeggios, octaves, thirds, sixths, chromatic scales, Pischna, Hanon, Schmitt, Czerny vol I and II of his selected piano studies, and then also Czerny's School of velocity, Op 299, various other people's works who are less known (why not ?) and then Brahms 51 exercises.  I also decided to play through some Bach just to see if I could find this precise figuration and fingering to go with it, but I just couldn't -- I couldn't find it anywhere except for in this precise piece and in this precise place within the piece, and to fit my specific hand and personal needs, too.

Am I missing something ?     What should I do ?  I mean, I could just practice that specific place in the Rach's music, but I feel pretty naughty doing that since I have obviously missed the boat somewhere else .

Any help you can give me is greatly appreciated .

m1469,

At the moment I am travelling and don't have the score in front of me to check original fingering.
From the pics it seems you "block out" the pattern, preparing the hand for three notes, so the hand is in a "wide open" position and of course it creates tension. The trick is to "think" of it as of narrow position, where you stretch only for one interval and once you play the note the previous finger immediately releases the previous note and hand is in the "closed" position.
The closest technique I can think of is Chopin Etude Op.10/1.

The short "rotation" and your fingering could probably work for some certain short runs, but I feel they are out of context of this long melodic line.
In other words, your fingering and the way you move your hand creates very short lengths of phrasing, which is contrary to the musical and pianistical content of this passage, where the physical motion should be "circle like" or infinite one, rather than "rolled", where the motion stops every two-three notes and since it is out of musical context, the passage becomes much harder than it actually is.

Another thing, you play "all the notes", where each one is equally important. As a result, the really important ones (obviously top ones) get bured, your fingers get stuck in the keys, pushing too hard and creating lots of unneccessary tension, and most important, the passage loses its musical meaning. It should be played on "one".
 
But, before you start I'd suggest forget motion, fingering, your instrument, just close your eyes and feel and see not even the sound, but musical wave of this passage.
Most likely you will see something where the intensity reaches its peak on the top of the passage, and then like a baloon loses the air when going down... Or like a birst of wind, immediately calming down just to get another burst again... Or... whatever your fantasy pleased...

After that, pretend that you are trying to conduct it. Remember, that invisable orchestra consists of people who have no idea what music is, so in order them understand what to do in every little detail you will need to show with your hand in the most expressive way. Most likely, that will be the most natural pianistic motion you've found.

After that you will find that the reason you got tension is just as simple as you were playing the "bottom" part of the passage too loud and it should be lighten up SIGNIFICANTLY, so you leave space for creschendo on the top few notes. Together with your newly found breathing pianistic motion it will help the music to get that neccessary momentum.
 
And after that you already won't need me to tell you what fingering to use 

Best, M

[henry_v]

m1469,

At the moment I am travelling and don't have the score in front of me to check original fingering.
From the pics it seems you "block out" the pattern, preparing the hand for three notes, so the hand is in a "wide open" position and of course it creates tension. The trick is to "think" of it as of narrow position, where you stretch only for one interval and once you play the note the previous finger immediately releases the previous note and hand is in the "closed" position.
The closest technique I can think of is Chopin Etude Op.10/1.

The short "rotation" and your fingering could probably work for some certain short runs, but I feel they are out of context of this long melodic line.
In other words, your fingering and the way you move your hand creates very short lengths of phrasing, which is contrary to the musical and pianistical content of this passage, where the physical motion should be "circle like" or infinite one, rather than "rolled", where the motion stops every two-three notes and since it is out of musical context, the passage becomes much harder than it actually is.

Another thing, you play "all the notes", where each one is equally important. As a result, the really important ones (obviously top ones) get bured, your fingers get stuck in the keys, pushing too hard and creating lots of unneccessary tension, and most important, the passage loses its musical meaning. It should be played on "one".
 
But, before you start I'd suggest forget motion, fingering, your instrument, just close your eyes and feel and see not even the sound, but musical wave of this passage.
Most likely you will see something where the intensity reaches its peak on the top of the passage, and then like a baloon loses the air when going down... Or like a birst of wind, immediately calming down just to get another burst again... Or... whatever your fantasy pleased...

After that, pretend that you are trying to conduct it. Remember, that invisable orchestra consists of people who have no idea what music is, so in order them understand what to do in every little detail you will need to show with your hand in the most expressive way. Most likely, that will be the most natural pianistic motion you've found.

After that you will find that the reason you got tension is just as simple as you were playing the "bottom" part of the passage too loud and it should be lighten up SIGNIFICANTLY, so you leave space for creschendo on the top few notes. Together with your newly found breathing pianistic motion it will help the music to get that neccessary momentum.
 
And after that you already won't need me to tell you what fingering to use 

Best, M

Wonderful post! These things were almost exactly what I had in mind, but found it difficult to write it in words. I don't think I have to go much into detail, because it is more or less clear now.

[lostinidlewonder]

m1469 I would post a video for you if I knew how to make clear videos and upload them, unfortunately I haven't got time to invest to work that all out for the moment! It is exciting to see someone actually take time to make photos and videos of a technical question. I would have liked to see you play the passage as you would play it in performance. The snippets you have given us to look at are slowed down and thus look somewhat different to what your hand would look like playing the whole passage at tempo.