New christianity post (others are way too long)

[thalbergmad]

try to disprove the Bible when im gone

Try and prove it.

Go and take some cyanide now, and if God protects you and you answer this post, i will convert immediately.

Thal

[pianistimo]

what an ungodly thing to say.

[thalbergmad]

Not at all, simply seeking the truth.

Thal

[timothy42b]

and now I have to admit to a little shame.  The Mark comment was a setup. 

Those verses in Mark do not appear in any document we have prior to 415 AD.  So it is highly likely they were a forgery. 

So it was kind of a setup.  Most mainstream Christians don't put any stock in fringe areas like this, because they have some sense of how the Bible was written, and know we can't rely on every part of it literally. 

[thalbergmad]

and now I have to admit to a little shame.  The Mark comment was a setup. 

Those verses in Mark do not appear in any document we have prior to 415 AD.  So it is highly likely they were a forgery. 

So it was kind of a setup.  Most mainstream Christians don't put any stock in fringe areas like this, because they have some sense of how the Bible was written, and know we can't rely on every part of it literally. 

HAHA, nice one old chap.

Thal

[timothy42b]

I think that had I realized how young Lugal was, and that his mother might appear, I might have responded differently or not at all.

Anybody else? 

[thalbergmad]

the first one i can think of is the text of Flavius Josephus called Antiquities.........he very clearly mentions Jesus by name and mentions that he led a movement of people called christians

Jesus is also mentioned in the Talmud.....in the writings of Tacitus as "Christus,” who “was executed at the hands of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius”

How could Jesus be leading a movement of people called Christians? Christianity did not exist then. Therefore, would you not say that this text was a later Christian insertion?

Tacitus does mention Christ, but are you sure that he is referring to the same person on which you base your faith. Was Jesus Christ really called Jesus Christ or was he called Edwin ben David or something else. Was there anyone else living at the time that could be referred to as Christ?

The word Jesus derives from the Aramaic "yeshua", which can mean Joshua but can also mean "the deliverer" or "savior". Therefore, Jesus could just be a title. Christ comes from "christos" the Greek translation of the Aramaic "meshiha" meaning "the anointed one". We seeem to have a double title:  "The deliverer (or savior), the anointed one". Seems to be as much of a made up name equal to anything Holywood could come up with.

Another important Jewish chronicler, Philo of Alexandria, does not even mention Jesus. The 2nd century writers Lucian and Celsus portray Jesus as a sorcerer and formenter of rebellion. Strange how that never ended up in the New Testament. The historian Suetonius writes that during the rule of Claudius, the Jews rioted in Rome and the instigation of "Chrestus".

So apart from the edited collection of fables in the New Testament, you have not really got a lot and what you have got is not exactly clear. As for the work of Jesus, the miracles and resurrection, you have nothing.

I personally believe in his existence, but the rest is a matter of faith which i appear to lack.

I apologise for the sensible post which is out of character.

Thal

[ahinton]

How could Jesus be leading a movement of people called Christians? Christianity did not exist then. Therefore, would you not say that this text was a later Christian insertion?

Tacitus does mention Christ, but are you sure that he is referring to the same person on which you base your faith. Was Jesus Christ really called Jesus Christ or was he called Edwin ben David or something else. Was there anyone else living at the time that could be referred to as Christ?

The word Jesus derives from the Aramaic "yeshua", which can mean Joshua but can also mean "the deliverer" or "savior". Therefore, Jesus could just be a title. Christ comes from "christos" the Greek translation of the Aramaic "meshiha" meaning "the anointed one". We seeem to have a double title:  "The deliverer (or savior), the anointed one". Seems to be as much of a made up name equal to anything Holywood could come up with.

Another important Jewish chronicler, Philo of Alexandria, does not even mention Jesus. The 2nd century writers Lucian and Celsus portray Jesus as a sorcerer and formenter of rebellion. Strange how that never ended up in the New Testament. The historian Suetonius writes that during the rule of Claudius, the Jews rioted in Rome and the instigation of "Chrestus".

So apart from the edited collection of fables in the New Testament, you have not really got a lot and what you have got is not exactly clear. As for the work of Jesus, the miracles and resurrection, you have nothing.

I personally believe in his existence, but the rest is a matter of faith which i appear to lack.

I apologise for the sensible post which is out of character.

Thal

It's only the length, not the sense, of your post that seems out of character (not that it actually is so - I wrote "seems" deliberately).

"The historian Suetonius", indeed; so Sue was around even that long ago...

I too believe in the existence of the person that many now call "Jesus Christ" but, as I wasn't around at the time of that existence, I, too, have of necessity to be careful what I say about Him, because his life and works are so very far removed from my own time. I have no reason to suspect that His teachings were other than of considerable importance but, frankly, I'd be able to feel easier about it all had I had the opportunity to share some bread and wine with Him as He dispensed His wisdom in what I imagine to be His totally unpompous way - a way that is so uncharacteristic of the manner in which He is so often portrayed by high Catholics and born-again-Presbyterians alike.

OK, so on a score of 1 - 10 in the pianistimo-Christimo way of life, I recognise that the above marks me out as somewhere between minus 411 and minus something rather larger than that, but that's the way it is, I guess - so (to refer to another thread in this section) the likelihood of my being kissed by pianistimo is obviously in similar proportion...

Best,

Alistair

[pianowelsh]

a Christian dosent sign up to christianity like signing up for a Tecso store card. If you are a Christian the bible teaches that God by his Holy sprit has brought you to himself.  That he has opened your eyes to who he is.  That Jesus has brought you into his family by paying for your life with his own blood.  Scripture also says that Jesus shall not loose any that God the father has given to him.  So even if the best argument in the world was presented if you know Christ and Christ has done all this for you. You wouldnt dream of forsaking it.  Thats why Christians are going to their deaths in N korea - they can deny their Lord.

[timothy42b]

Thats why Christians are going to their deaths in N korea - they can deny their Lord.

The early Christian church, in the first 100 years, was sharply divided between those who believed in martydom and those who violently opposed it.

One contingent felt that in dying for your beliefs you showed ultimate faith and would obviously be immediately rewarded in Heaven.

The other contingent felt that meant God had to be a bloodthirsty creature who was pleased by the death of the faithful.  They rejected that view of God as hopelessly Old Testament, and believed instead that a Loving God would never want his chosen people martyred. 

You did know this, right?  It's not exactly a secret.  There were many similar disagreements in the early church. 

[ramseytheii]

a Christian dosent sign up to christianity like signing up for a Tecso store card. If you are a Christian the bible teaches that God by his Holy sprit has brought you to himself.  That he has opened your eyes to who he is.  That Jesus has brought you into his family by paying for your life with his own blood.  Scripture also says that Jesus shall not loose any that God the father has given to him.  So even if the best argument in the world was presented if you know Christ and Christ has done all this for you. You wouldnt dream of forsaking it.  Thats why Christians are going to their deaths in N korea - they can deny their Lord.

Scripture also says if you don't accept his unprompted sacrifice for your sake, you will burn forever in eternal torment.  Why mention one but not the other?

Walter Ramsey

[thalbergmad]

There were many similar disagreements in the early church. 

I have been reading about this lately, and it is definately an interesting subject.

I was rather amazed that Jesus's "Divinity" was not even decided until the end of the 4th Century and then by vote.

The fact that the New Testament was put together some considerable time after Jesus's death by Humans for Human reasons, with Human bias and frailties, would seem to indicate that baseing your faith on it and using it as a valid historical document, is stretching credibility to its limits.

The more i read, the more i think that Christianity is built on unsteady foundations and those who believe in its every word without question are ignorant morons.

Thal

 

[timothy42b]

I was rather amazed that Jesus's "Divinity" was not even decided until the end of the 4th Century and then by vote.

If you read the New Testament carefully, without the bias of modern theology, I think you will see that some of the disciples believed divinity started at birth, some at resurrection, and some at ascension.    IOW Jesus was not always divine.  We gloss over these disagreements today but things were not clear back then to the people who were actually there. 

Jesus's divinity vote was forced by the emperor Constantine who had political gain in mind, and seemed to be frustrated with the church's inability to give him a clear answer.  Not much difference today! 

[thalbergmad]

Not much difference today! 

Indeed not.

I have read that the last Pope, delcared Mary's hymen to be intact.

How the hell he knows that is beyond me.

Thal

[8426]

I have read this whole topic. I am not disappointed.
I have learned some things, the staunchness and powerful defense of the atheist, the seemingly weak response of the Christian. It seems that few are those Christians who are fully able to prove their beliefs.
Also the great care I must take in expounding my defense (with God's help), less my words may be used against me (a favorite of the atheist).
Some of you are quite rational. I hope my rationality may turn you.
I will try all that is in my power to cover all that has been said and defend Christianity. It may seem a great remark until I am attacked.
I will take as much care as I can. And yet all true wisdom that I have will and is ascribe to the Great Master.
Soli Deo Gloria
Should I start a new topic or defend now?

[lostinidlewonder]

Trying to explain Christianity and defend against attacks is a waste of time. It is a distraction to our main aim, and the devil delights in it. The topic has been picked apart in other posts anyway so there's no point repeating ourselves over and over again.

[thalbergmad]

I think Christianity is weakening in England.

The Church is run by a group of ineffectual beardies who cannot make up their minds whether to allow poofs to be ministers. When anyone of our so called "bishops" makes a statement, it just goes to show how far away from modern reality they are and how pointless their existance is.

Church attendances appear to be down, you cannot find an organist for love nor money, the average age of the churchgoer is about 90 & health and safety regulations have almost closed down every mothers union lunch club in the Country.

Whether or not the decline of Christianity is a good thing I guess only history will tell. I do think that the enforced brain washing of our children is a bad thing, but on the other hand, its decline does appear to be going hand in hand with a decline in Society in general.

What we need are strong Church leaders who will appeal to the people and stand up to gay and Islam loving government.

If this sounds like sh*t, it is because i rad rather too much beer last night.

Thal


 

[morningstar]

OK skipping ahead and avoiding all the repeated content from sooo many other threads...btw welcome back pianistimo !
While this seems to be an innocent attempt to make conversation, it's been done many many times. Starts off OK then becomes completely detracted from what it was intended to be, becomes a spam thread and gets locked. Utilise search function. Please.
Something you might find useful here though...I converted to christianity recently from-well, nothing really so may have something to contribute outside of the topic pages. Enjoy anyway.

[timothy42b]

I have learned some things, the staunchness and powerful defense of the atheist, the seemingly weak response of the Christian. It seems that few are those Christians who are fully able to prove their beliefs.

Should I start a new topic or defend now?

Ah, an intelligent apologist.  At least we hope so.  Welcome!

You have correctly perceived that the skeptic and/or liberal Christian tend to get the best of the arguments with the fundamentalist Christian. 

There are a variety of reasons for this.  Some are obvious, others not.  I can elaborate if useful. 

I would caution you about assuming all Christians share whatever particular flavor of theology you personally have.  That tendency seems to be universal here, but it is wrong. 

I would also caution you about the shock and hurt feelings factor.  Rational people know that there are elements of any religion that are problematic, to say the least.  Until very recently you couldn't have this kind of conversation, because we - all of us, religious and skeptics - just agreed to give religion a free pass from critical thinking, from having to defend anything.  It was strictly hands off, bad manners to even consider.  So if you come here and make statements that you can't support, expect to be challenged, and don't react with such surprise. 

I would also suggest that the strategy used by most of the Christian evangelists here is fatally flawed, and it can be done better.  But you probably have your own ideas of how to do it. 

[maul]

Other posts are too long? What the hell does that have to do with anything? You need to go the official Plague of the Mind post to discuss this BS.

[morningstar]

Other posts are too long? What the hell does that have to do with anything? You need to go the official Plague of the Mind post to discuss this BS.

Other topics. Seriously? The plague of the mind thread must be at 1500+posts by now lol

[timothy42b]

Other posts are too long? What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Because it's good manners to read the whole thread before diving in, and who could possibly do that?  There are individual posts so long and tendentious I didn't make it all the way through.  (thanks largely to ...ahem........one individual <grin>)

However if this new arrival has a particular angle he wants to pursue, splitting off a new thread is probably the way to go. 

For example, maybe he wants to prove that Christianity is right, Buddhism wrong, but Jainism more practical.  I.e., an intrareligion debate.  Etc. 

[thalbergmad]

I want everyone to convert to Thalism.

New Religion.

Thal

[communist]

https://celestialmechanic.com/audio/newevidence.htm


If you can disprove this I will convert to Thalism

[thalbergmad]

I don't want commies in my religion and any twat can post links.

https://www.bible.ca/tracks/b-hugh-ross.htm
https://ptet.dubar.com/reasons-not-model.html
https://www.creationists.org/hugh-ross-heresies-and-bad-science.html

Thal

[communist]

Any old twat can open a damn link

[thalbergmad]

Indeed, but not every twat can understand it.

[aslanov]

First of all, let me say thank you for the presence of:
Thal and
prometheus
you save me from saying a lot

Onto lug-w/ez mention of christ's records

from what i have gathered, tacitus' records speak of a "christ", a word which doesnt refer to jesus christ, but of an anointed one. now who that anointed one is, i dont know, but you cant claim it to be jesus just because tacitus used the word christ or christus.

secondly, the flavious josephus writings, im pretty sure, have been proven to be a forgery. and its not very hard to prove that. i'd assume by some half-life dating system they could very easily.

lastly, but not leastly
what a pointless thread this is......your clearly hear to try and force your ideas and beliefs onto other people. if you had the intention of really getting to the truth here, you wouldnt go to a forum where people will lay their beliefs and knowledge on to you, because all of us our biased in some sense, however scientific we may be.
If you genuinely want to find the truth, you read, you research, rigorously, and put your beliefs aside and let the truth take you wherever it does, whether you like it or not. you cant come into an argument about the existence of god, with a firm belief in his existence. well you can, but not the way you do, in which you blindly believe everything the bible says, which is just nonsense to do so. Why? what makes those who wrote it SO special? answer me just THAT question. what makes them so special? why believe these unintelligent (i mean that as in, there's no science in anything they say) ancient people's words? just because they are ancient? or because they give you a fairy tale which comforts you, and makes you feel important, and safe, and secure. a story that feeds your ego. get over it. get over yourself.

I shall post no further in this thread. you've heard enough argument to start research yourself on those topics. bugger off.

[general disarray]

you cant come into an argument about the existence of god, with a firm belief in his existence. well you can, but not the way you do, in which you blindly believe everything the bible says, which is just nonsense to do so. Why? what makes those who wrote it SO special? answer me just THAT question. what makes them so special? why believe these unintelligent (i mean that as in, there's no science in anything they say) ancient people's words? just because they are ancient? or because they give you a fairy tale which comforts you, and makes you feel important, and safe, and secure. a story that feeds your ego. get over it. get over yourself.

I shall post no further in this thread. you've heard enough argument to start research yourself on those topics. bugger off.

You answered your own query on why people buy into that which they cannot prove.  It "comforts" them, thereby giving them the illusion of being "safe" and "secure," and, yes, it feeds their "egos," by making them feel "special."  Basic group psychology.  The more of us, the more significant we are.  It's that simple.  And that depressing, given that religion, and the conflicts it sets up among peoples, causes more grief than any one issue on earth.

My last post on this crap topic, as well.

[mrba1979]

I want everyone to convert to Thalism.

New Religion.

Thal

I imagine it would require a hefty health insurance plan.  How much is a shot of penicillin these days?

[ahinton]

I want everyone to convert to Thalism.

New Religion.

Thal

I'm not sure that it is a religion but I am sure that it is not new; we've surely all heard of the Thaliban before.

Best,

Alistair

[anne126]

All "religions" are logically incoherent (all of them being based on the concepts of morality and free-will).


Also, one cannot prove that God exists, and just as well one cannot prove that he doesn't.

[timothy42b]

Also, one cannot prove that God exists, and just as well one cannot prove that he doesn't.

Well, that's not precisely true. 

Although, note that we tend to reserve the word proof for mathematics, and within science we just say evidence.

If God is a purely spiritual nonmaterial supernatural being, we can neither prove existence nor nonexistence, nor even investigate the possibilities.

That has been the position of science for a long time - ignore it as non material.

As long as the benefits of God are purely in an afterlife, this is logically consistent. 

BUT!  and it is a very big BUT! indeed, the moment you allege that God intervenes in THIS world, we can investigate using the methods of science.

Does He answer prayers?  Is faith rewarded with health and prosperity?  Very very easy to gather data and support or refute.

(no, none of these attempts has ended up in support.  ) 

[dolly lo]

I have a feeling that in America the religion is something very important in the life.. More than here, in Europe. There are so many christians like it seems? People take it too seriously, no?

In my case.. I don't believe in God. At least in this idealized God (for many reasons that I can't explain now because of my poor vocabulary lol. A philosophical debate is too much for me)

Anyway, people need to believe in something..

[lostinidlewonder]

If God could be "proved" on human terms he would not be that great. It is also quite arrogant that we humans think we know everything there is to know in the universe, we don't even use a large % of our brain power/capability/capacity etc.

[thalbergmad]

we don't even use a large % of our brain power/capability/capacity etc.

Especially in this thread old chap.

Thal

[gep]

The way I see it, there are three possibillities:
1) God(s) exists, can put things right (kill Hitler as a baby, say), but chooses to do nothing. Little to worship there, I think
2) God(s) exists, but cannot do anything about it. Little to worship there too, I think.
3) There is/are no God(s), nothing to worship then.

There are (and have been) myriads of different(!) religions, each with any number of variants, EACH of which has the Total, Absolute and (especially!) Unquestionable and Undeniable Truth. Of course, all the others are deluded and wrong, and only YOURS is right!

Of course, religion is a very powerful tool to differentiate Us from Them. We are of cousre superior over Them, for We are the Chosen, while the Others are inferior and should be subjugated.

I think everybode needs something to fool themselves, in order not to perish in the sight of his insignificance. Some believe in politics, others in science, some even in Man. And some believe in religion. And I would defend the right of anybody to believe as and what they want. Just apply the same to everybody else, please. There's little that I detest more than those chaps who, with eyes blinking like a terminal drug addict, approach you in the street asking if you have "heard the Good News". 

[communist]

The way I see it, there are three possibillities:
1) God(s) exists, can put things right (kill Hitler as a baby, say), but chooses to do nothing. Little to worship there, I think
2) God(s) exists, but cannot do anything about it. Little to worship there too, I think.
3) There is/are no God(s), nothing to worship then.

There are (and have been) myriads of different(!) religions, each with any number of variants, EACH of which has the Total, Absolute and (especially!) Unquestionable and Undeniable Truth. Of course, all the others are deluded and wrong, and only YOURS is right!

Of course, religion is a very powerful tool to differentiate Us from Them. We are of cousre superior over Them, for We are the Chosen, while the Others are inferior and should be subjugated.

I think everybode needs something to fool themselves, in order not to perish in the sight of his insignificance. Some believe in politics, others in science, some even in Man. And some believe in religion. And I would defend the right of anybody to believe as and what they want. Just apply the same to everybody else, please. There's little that I detest more than those chaps who, with eyes blinking like a terminal drug addict, approach you in the street asking if you have "heard the Good News". 

god gives us free will to do whatever we want, so he wont smite us for that. If god exists and can not do anything about it, therefore he does exist. His existence is something to worship.

[ahinton]

The way I see it, there are three possibillities:
1) God(s) exists, can put things right (kill Hitler as a baby, say), but chooses to do nothing. Little to worship there, I think
2) God(s) exists, but cannot do anything about it. Little to worship there too, I think.
3) There is/are no God(s), nothing to worship then.

There are (and have been) myriads of different(!) religions, each with any number of variants, EACH of which has the Total, Absolute and (especially!) Unquestionable and Undeniable Truth. Of course, all the others are deluded and wrong, and only YOURS is right!

Of course, religion is a very powerful tool to differentiate Us from Them. We are of cousre superior over Them, for We are the Chosen, while the Others are inferior and should be subjugated.

I think everybode needs something to fool themselves, in order not to perish in the sight of his insignificance. Some believe in politics, others in science, some even in Man. And some believe in religion. And I would defend the right of anybody to believe as and what they want. Just apply the same to everybody else, please. There's little that I detest more than those chaps who, with eyes blinking like a terminal drug addict, approach you in the street asking if you have "heard the Good News". 

A lot must inevitably depend on what the very term "God" might mean to each individual at any given time; the usual definition that one encounters seems to me to be along the lines of some kind of perfect but invisible, immortal, omniscient and omnipresent superhuman, which I find too bizarre and remote a concept to equate to anything in which one can have realistic and reasonable expectations of "faith". Others might submit a notion of an invisible force of creative energy as a kind of driving force that enables the universe in all its variety to develop and metamorphose, although even this rather more sanguine and pragmatic concept does not appear obviously or easily to attact "faith".

The "my religion is right and everyone else's is wrong" is not only an attitude that is as reprehensible as it is widespread but also one that threatens to undermine those commonalities between the world's best known faiths as briefly alluded to in the chapter Paths Leading to the Same Summit from Dr Ananda Coomaraswamy's book The Bugbear of Literacy.

If approached and asked if I have "heard the good news", I respond that I know about the credit crunch, the wars and famine that continue to tear much of Africa apart, the widespread persecution of individuals in places as diverse as North Korea and Guantanamo Bay and the rest and that this fact proves me capable of reading a newspaper if nothing else; that response (which is true) or countering such an unsolicited approach with "I'm a Roman Catholic" (which isn't) usually shuts them up and leaves them to go pester some other unfortunate victim...

Best,

Alistair

[lostinidlewonder]

The way I see it, there are three possibillities:
1) God(s) exists, can put things right (kill Hitler as a baby, say), but chooses to do nothing. Little to worship there, I think

What does it mean "can put things right?" on what terms? On human terms? So whatever changes that are made makes our mortal life now easier? It seems useless that what God gives us is only for this mortal life as it is a speck next to the somehwat infinite space and time we exist within. So why would one only want to worship God so that their mortal life now is benefited? One prays to God that we see through the thick of the chaos that is in this world, not necessarily hope that it is wiped from existance. History will show that we always have chaos in our lives, political, social, economical etc.

2) God(s) exists, but cannot do anything about it. Little to worship there too, I think.

Highlights again a wish for something to do done on human terms? Cannot do anything about how he exists? How do we know what he is doing for us in the background, in the afterlife, in death where we know nothing? If worshiping gave you a mansion and a lot of money and success in life then you will be worshiping the Devil who is the master of the materialistic world we live in. God is the God of life, who has power over death of which no human or devil has control over.

Also in the material world we do worship people who create things. For example if we agree that God is the clockmaker of all events that happen naturally in this world and otherwise, then we would worship him. Just as one worships somewhat and agrees that Rolex is a top quality watch maker. We can see their watches in action, the end product, we don't care about the exact way in which they make them, they would never tell you! But we see their end product and are very impressed by their skill. Something worth looking up to? The $ sure say so. But God doesn't need $.

3) There is/are no God(s), nothing to worship then.

How are you measuring if God exists? In the material gain you get in your life? If that is your measuring stick you will never find God. Naturally if there is no God exists there would be no concept of worshiping him.

Of course, religion is a very powerful tool to differentiate Us from Them. We are of cousre superior over Them, for We are the Chosen, while the Others are inferior and should be subjugated.

The intricacies of each religion is unimportant if one initally does not possess reverence for God. If one in all sincerity believes in God they will not judge others struggle or difference in worshiping God, they will however challenge and be challenged by their personal relationship with God. It is too bad if some people want to compete and say who is right or wrong, but those who spend their entire life thinking this way are missing the point.

I think everybode needs something to fool themselves, in order not to perish in the sight of his insignificance. Some believe in politics, others in science, some even in Man. And some believe in religion. And I would defend the right of anybody to believe as and what they want.

I like to believe that the majority of people in this world are sane and competent. No one really FOOLS themselves in anything, or encourage delusions to satisfy deep rooted needs. One who is very confident in themselves will be open to all information that is presented to them and not feel like they need to be on the defense.

I get people from the Mormon Church or Jehovah's Witness come knocking on my door I welcome the discussion. Not that what they say I believe in, but what they say is valuable to me. If I weigh their evidence and their scripture, it solidifies the stance which I personally have. I use to debate with them and make them never return to my home, it sure gave me an ego boost that I could shut them up and point out where they have gone wrong. It is a sweet taste in your mouth but very bitter in your stomach. This means, it is immediately a great feeling but where does it lead me to crush other peoples ideas? Is that how I measure my belief? Do I want to lead my life correcting other people with what I think is right? Do I want to call everyone else delusional? Sure we can do this, it feels great, but where does it lead us in the end? Bitterness!

We should be open to knowledge but never be TOLD, rather discussed with. Anyone who says to you, BELIEVE ME THIS IS THE TRUTH, don't believe them. Any Christian will know that honey catches more flies than vinegar, the wise make knowledge interesting to deal with, unforutnately not everyone can do it this way and many have a sledge hammer approach, both in how they try to preach and defend against knowledge.

[thalbergmad]

I get people from the Mormon Church or Jehovah's Witness come knocking on my door

So do i, and regretfully for the last lot, i was watering the lawn at the time.

They are worse than double glazing salesman and even harder to get rid of.

Thal

[gep]

Quote from: gep on April 17, 2009, 01:42:42 PM
The way I see it, there are three possibillities:
1) God(s) exists, can put things right (kill Hitler as a baby, say), but chooses to do nothing. Little to worship there, I think

What does it mean "can put things right?" on what terms? On human terms? So whatever changes that are made makes our mortal life now easier? It seems useless that what God gives us is only for this mortal life as it is a speck next to the somehwat infinite space and time we exist within. So why would one only want to worship God so that their mortal life now is benefited? One prays to God that we see through the thick of the chaos that is in this world, not necessarily hope that it is wiped from existance. History will show that we always have chaos in our lives, political, social, economical etc.

Let me put it this way, any god(s) that allows someone like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot or there ilk to exist and do there horror to other people isn't worth praise, but worth damnation. Any god(s) that allows thousends of children and people to die horrible death through disease, abuse, hunger and whatnot isn't worth praise, but worth damnation. It is religion(s) that have created most of the "thick of the chaos that is in this world". It is religions that have created most of the hatred, wars and misery that afflicts human societies. Not even the greatest of natural disasters have come close in numbers of people dead, disabled, impoverished and whatnot.
"History will show that we always have chaos in our lives, political, social, economical etc." Yes, AND history will show that we have always had religion in society. It is religion that has been giving the justification for most of the misery that has been part of human existence. The more religion is embedded within a society, the more repressive, intollerant and violent that society will be.

How do we know what he is doing for us in the background, in the afterlife, in death where we know nothing?

Ah yes, the eternal carrot-on-a-stick of the afterlife. "Now youlive in squalor and misery, but ah, in the afterlife you will be rewarded!" The beginning of the slippery slope that leads to things like "If you blast the unbelievers to Hell you will be rewarded 70 virgins in the afterlife!".

If worshiping gave you a mansion and a lot of money and success in life then you will be worshiping the Devil who is the master of the materialistic world we live in.

True, the worst thing you can do is give people what they want. It would be much better to give them what they need. In this respect, by the way, it is funny to note that the most Christian nation in the world is the USA, and nowhere else is material gain so important as there. And I never heard of a church who didn't like donations...

God is the God of life,

As shown in Auschwitz and the myriad copies thereof.

who has power over death of which no human or devil has control over

What power of death? It is a bit strange, by the way, that God has allowed the Devil(s) the exist, no? Assuming he is powerful enough to obliterate them.

Also in the material world we do worship people who create things.

Speak for yourself here, please. I do not worship people. Admire some, yes; worship, no.

For example if we agree that God is the clockmaker of all events that happen naturally in this world and otherwise

We don't. All events that happen naturally in this world happen naturally. Such is the nature of nature.

Just as one worships somewhat and agrees that Rolex is a top quality watch maker. We can see their watches in action, the end product, we don't care about the exact way in which they make them, they would never tell you! But we see their end product and are very impressed by their skill.

But I do care about how they make them! Just as much as I want to know how natures works the way it does. I see the end product, and am very impressed by it, yes. For which reason I cannot believe in a god that has created it and then behaves as the most religions say he/she/it/they behave. Man has created god(s) in his image, not the other way round (in which case he/she/it/they would probably not have done such a lousy job!).

But God doesn't need $.

Try explain that to any representative of any faith. Ever met any who refused money. But then you will probably say that God doesn't need money, but the firm does to be able to do the necessary things, right?

How are you measuring if God exists? In the material gain you get in your life?

No, I'm no American. I do so by thinking over all arguments in favor and all arguments in disfavor. So far, I have found not a single argument in favor.

Naturally if there is no God exists there would be no concept of worshiping him.

This is bogus, you say that God exists because people believe in him. That would logically mean that all gods people believe in or have believed in should exist too. If there was no Isis there would be no concept of worshipping her. If there was no Loki there would be no concept of believing in him. etc.etc.etc.

The intricacies of each religion is unimportant if one initally does not possess reverence for God.

The intricacies of any religion are plain silly, stupid and often even repulsive if one initially does not posses reverence for whatever god(s) they worship.

If one in all sincerity believes in God they will not judge others struggle or difference in worshiping God,

Reality as one can see every day is rather different. Any religion is, by defenition, hostile to all others.

It is too bad if some people want to compete and say who is right or wrong, but those who spend their entire life thinking this way are missing the point.

So very true. Unfortunately, this sentence could serve almost as a description of Man in general. Especially that part that serves religion (such as priest,imams, vicars, rabbies, etc, etc). If you are in a certain faith, you must assume that you are Right, and therefor all others who disagree with you are Wrong. If you are civilised you might allow those who are Wrong to be Wrong, but no religion has that civilisation because they do not like competition.

I like to believe that the majority of people in this world are sane and competent.

That would be nice, yes. Now get them to ACT sane an competent.

No one really FOOLS themselves in anything, or encourage delusions to satisfy deep rooted needs.

You must live in a very pretty but remote and isolated place....

One who is very confident in themselves will be open to all information that is presented to them and not feel like they need to be on the defense.

Correct. The problem with most if not all religions is that they do not want there subjects to be "open to all information that is presented to them", since this causes doubt or even questions (if not questioning).

I get people from the Mormon Church or Jehovah's Witness come knocking on my door I welcome the discussion.

Personally I detest the way they come back and back again.

I use to debate with them and make them never return to my home

Then you are possibly the only person who has ever manged that, lucky you! Normally they are like weed, no matter how hard you cut it down, it will come back again and again.

it sure gave me an ego boost that I could shut them up and point out where they have gone wrong.

Because you are Right en they are Wrong, right? It must indeed be an ego boost when you've got all the Right Answers.

where does it lead me to crush other peoples ideas?

I do not know, but I do know where it has lead to many times over in the past, the present and sadly no doubt in the future. Why would you want to crush other people's ideas? I have no need to crush your or anybodies ideas. I disagree with you, yes, but I grant you the same right to have your ideas as I want to be granted to have mine. If you believe to have the right to crush other people's ideas, than you should grant other people the same right to (try and) crush your ideas. The trouble with religions is that they invariable want to crush other people's ideas (usually by crushing the people).

Is that how I measure my belief?

I most sincerely hope not!

Do I want to lead my life correcting other people with what I think is right?

I hope not! Unfortunately, there are myriads of people who do just that.

Do I want to call everyone else delusional?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you calling everybody who doesn't share you beliefs delusional? Sure, I believe that everybody who believes in (a) god(s) delusional, but I grant them the right to be. Just as long as they grant me the right to believe in what they will call my delusion. As long as people have the decency to let everybody have their own private delusions (and as long as everybody agrees that their delusions apply to them only), society would be not so
 bad.

Sure we can do this

And more often than not indeed do it....

it feels great

And that's the problem...

but where does it lead us in the end

And has it lead us, and no doubt will it lead us for as long a humanity will exist...

Bitterness!

Of all kinds Man is able to concieve. And man has never been as creative in anything as in concieving all sorts of bitterness for his fellow man.

We should be open to knowledge but never be TOLD, rather discussed with.

True insofar as you cannot discuss facts. But indeed alsways distrust anything that is TOLD merely because it is told.

Anyone who says to you, BELIEVE ME THIS IS THE TRUTH, don't believe them.

Again true, but what you say here is a bit in contradiction with

I use to debate with them and make them never return to my home, it sure gave me an ego boost that I could shut them up and point out where they have gone wrong

I think?

Any Christian will know that honey catches more flies than vinegar

As any politician knows too. But the truth is, truth is not always honey...

the wise make knowledge interesting to deal with,

So very true. If only schools and teachers would understand (many do, though, but are denied the opportunity to make it happen).

many have a sledge hammer approach, both in how they try to preach and defend against knowledge.

Again so very true.

In short, I believe in "treat others as you wish to be treated". Many religions are more of the "teach others how to wish to be treated".

please do excuse the typos....

[thalbergmad]

The best post IMO of this entire thread.

Thal

[lostinidlewonder]

 It is obvious that your measurement of Gods worth is through how he serves you in the material world. If this is your measuring stick that highlights your respect for him there is little respect to gather and I don't think one would be suprised that you come to the conclusion that he does not exist or is useless.

The fact that "bad" things happen in this world and evil people do their worst does not prove nor disprove God it is irrelevant information.  Do we simply throw our hands up and say, Oh bad things happen God cannot exist!? It just doesn't make sense to say, I believe in God if all these bad things never happened. It is like saying, I don't believe that the government is in action unless they ensure that the local park gets a new swingset. You may never get your swingset but that doesn't mean the government is not in action dealing with things that you might have no concept of. Or you may say I will not believe that my government is good unless they can fix the problems in Iraq, if they do not fix that they are a failure and a loser and not worth EVER supporting.

To say God does not exist because evil happens in this world is at least to me a strange way to prove or disprove God and you still have not elaborated enough on this statement for me. We can talk a great deal about the injustice of this world but to then spin it around and say, GOD THUS DOES NOT EXIST is illogical. It would be just as bad for me to say, oh look at the mystery of this world God exists all around us!

Ah yes, the eternal carrot-on-a-stick of the afterlife. "Now youlive in squalor and misery, but ah, in the afterlife you will be rewarded!" The beginning of the slippery slope that leads to things like "If you blast the unbelievers to Hell you will be rewarded 70 virgins in the afterlife!".

If our actions in our life now is soley for a reward in the afterlife then you are following some religion which I do not know of. This seems to be a strange ideology a non-believer applies to religions, NO religion soley bases their actions in their life now to better their afterlife. I can speak for Christianity since it is what I have studied the most, we absolutely do not guess at the scales of justice God will use on Judgement day thus it becomes a waste of time for us to consider it.

True, the worst thing you can do is give people what they want. It would be much better to give them what they need. In this respect, by the way, it is funny to note that the most Christian nation in the world is the USA, and nowhere else is material gain so important as there. And I never heard of a church who didn't like donations...

This seems to evade the question I asked. Do we ask God to serve the material world, asking him to provide materialistic gain in order to have a concept of belief in him, whether this be removing tyrants of history or having a objects to fill your life etc. A relationship with God aims to have answer to death as well as what that means for our life now.

What power of death? It is a bit strange, by the way, that God has allowed the Devil(s) the exist, no? Assuming he is powerful enough to obliterate them.

Why bother questioning the existence of the Devil if one does not believe in God? Taking a step too far.

Speak for yourself here, please. I do not worship people. Admire some, yes; worship, no.

If you do not worship anything in life now how do you know what worship is or know when you do not worship? To admire, to praise highly, to look up to, these are forms of worship. We all worship materialitic things in some way, the word might be scary for some to admit but surely it is a broader term to highlight your appreciation of something.

We don't. All events that happen naturally in this world happen naturally. Such is the nature of nature.

The concept that God is the clockmaker was working off your statement that "God exists but he can do nothing about it thus nothing to worship". Your statement was assuming that God was the clockmaker. I was merely developing that logic and showing how one would develop worship if this was a fact. If you disagree that there is nothing to worship there when God is considered the clockmaker, he who sets and predetermines a state for "things" to occur, that would be interesting to hear.

But I do care about how they make them! Just as much as I want to know how natures works the way it does. I see the end product, and am very impressed by it, yes. For which reason I cannot believe in a god that has created it and then behaves as the most religions say he/she/it/they behave. Man has created god(s) in his image, not the other way round (in which case he/she/it/they would probably not have done such a lousy job!).

You can care as much as you want Rolex will hardly tell you the process they go through. But shrouding their abilities in mystery does not remove the fact that they are great watchmakers. Because they won't tell you how it is done can you deny paying the big dollars for their watches? God is mysterious, no religion aims to explain what he is like and exactly how he behaves, that is unimportant. Just like you do not know your parents very well when you are a child, you do not know them on adult terms but you can relate to them and love them.

Try explain that to any representative of any faith. Ever met any who refused money. But then you will probably say that God doesn't need money, but the firm does to be able to do the necessary things, right?

I said God does not need $ to highlight the fact that one cannot worship him through buying their way into it. It stemmed from your statment that God exists but cannot do anything about it thus he is not worth worshipping. If God is a clockmaker of the reality we live in now then there is a lot to worship just as we pay respect to Rolex in their beautiful watches. But we cannot pay our respect to God with $, this is to prompt you to think, well how do I worship him then? To say that religions will not turn from donations does not say much. Is it to try and shed light on the $ greed in religions? Is it trying to say, oh but they are all money making schemes? Fair enough if these things happen these do not highlight what the religion is about just as extremist muslims who blow themselves up ABSOLUTELY DO NOT represent the muslim religion (although many people foolishly link the two).

I do so by thinking over all arguments in favor and all arguments in disfavor. So far, I have found not a single argument in favor.

If you want an agrument in favor to the existence of God why not ask a psychologist to show you data relating to mental disease and a belief in God? Most people can control depression with a relationship with God. Now you might say, oh this is delusional thinking to control yourself, people making things up etc. Well then what evidence do you want? It seems you want a burning bush or a mountain moving itself. Just look at how it benefits so many, but unfortunately when you see that your mind is clouded with the thought that "Man, all these people are delusional!" So you will always doubt and never be open. Why not simply agree that what people are feeling when they worship God is true and honest instead of decietful and delusional? What do we get by thinking that what other people think is completely wrong? We never get to assess what is right and wrong that is what we get.

This is bogus, you say that God exists because people believe in him.

Not it is not bogus at all, if God totaly did not exist then we would have no one worshiping him. Unless we have paranoid thinking that there MUST be delusional people in this world that believe crazy things.

The intricacies of any religion are plain silly, stupid and often even repulsive if one initially does not posses reverence for whatever god(s) they worship.

They are not silly etc, just out of your reach for understanding. You must first honor God before you look deeper into religions otherwise you simply don't know what you are talking about. There certainly is enough to debate about the existence of God than tangenting off and confusing yourself with other details.

Reality as one can see every day is rather different. Any religion is, by defenition, hostile to all others.

I like to see this definition proven, I doubt that a Buddist would attack a Christian, we would treat one another like brothers and sisters, if we where true spiritual followers. Unfortunately you are assuming that all religions serve the material world which we just do not.

I haven't bothered talking about the rest of your post, no time.

[timothy42b]

It is obvious that your measurement of Gods worth is through how he serves you in the material world. If this is your measuring stick that highlights your respect for him there is little respect to gather and I don't think one would be suprised that you come to the conclusion that he does not exist or is useless.

We can talk a great deal about the injustice of this world but to then spin it around and say, GOD THUS DOES NOT EXIST is illogical. It would be just as bad for me to say, oh look at the mystery of this world God exists all around us!

It appears to me that liw has now overtaken susan not only in sheer volume of text produced but in following paths of logic undecipherable by mere mortals. 

These two paragraphs would appear to say that God does not help us out in the material world, therefore our failure to observe Him acting in the material world, removing evil etc., is not evidence of nonexistence.  I would agree, but then you follow with the very strange:

If our actions in our life now is soley for a reward in the afterlife then you are following some religion which I do not know of. This seems to be a strange ideology a non-believer applies to religions, NO religion soley bases their actions in their life now to better their afterlife. I can speak for Christianity since it is what I have studied the most, we absolutely do not guess at the scales of justice God will use on Judgement day thus it becomes a waste of time for us to consider it.

Truly, this is mindboggling.  God doesn't intervene in the present life OR the afterlife?  Christianity doesn't preach reward in the afterlife?  Either you have never read Paul, or you are dissembling.

Even a casual glance at various Christian denominations shows them split between those with prosperity gospels, who believe faith is always rewarded with health and wealth in the current life, and those who believe we should not be focused on earthly treasures but solely on Heaven (provided we are unlucky enough not to be Raptured). 

I do not see how you debated either 7DAs or LSDs successfully.  They tend to share your worship of a book as holy, literal, and inerrant, but generally speaking they are highly versed (pun) in its contents, more so than you. 

Perhaps you are indeed channelling pianistimo. 

If you want an agrument in favor to the existence of God why not ask a psychologist to show you data relating to mental disease and a belief in God? Most people can control depression with a relationship with God.

That is, frankly, a lie.  Sorry, no polite way to put it. 

I haven't bothered talking about the rest of your post, no time.

No time!  Goodness, after typing several sermons worth? 

[thalbergmad]

If you want an agrument in favor to the existence of God why not ask a psychologist to show you data relating to mental disease and a belief in God? Most people can control depression with a relationship with God.

I am sorry, but this is the biggest pile of crap i have ever seen on this forum.

Having consulted a few psychologists and been in a few "institutions", I can confirm that there is a hell of a lot of people suffering from depression and other mental problems who have strong religious convictions. In one hospital i stayed at, the Chapel was even more popular than the canteen.

Perhaps there is some sort of link between religion and mental illness. I did meet someone who beat the crap out of his mother as he thought God asked him to.

Thal

[timothy42b]

I am sorry, but this is the biggest pile of crap i have ever seen on this forum.

Having consulted a few psychologists and been in a few "institutions", I can confirm that there is a hell of a lot of people suffering from depression and other mental problems who have strong religious convictions. In one hospital i stayed at, the Chapel was even more popular than the canteen.

Perhaps there is some sort of link between religion and mental illness. I did meet someone who beat the crap out of his mother as he thought God asked him to.

Thal

Thal,
You are 100% right.  I have worked nearly ten years on the back wards of state mental institutions, and I can tell you that MOST patients have religious delusions.

Now, the religion didn't cause their illness.  I don't think there is anything about Christianity or any other religion that would necessarily cause you to become mentally ill.  But mentally ill people very very commonly are drawn to religion out of their own pathology. 

It is also true that being part of a supportive welcoming congregation is a great help to anyone suffering through grief or loss.  That is true regardless of whom they believe in, and does not imply any supernatural intervention, just human caring and support. 

For any real mental condition, including depression, proper treatment is needed.  Relying on religious pablum not only prevents this but adds guilt to the problem, as the person is told his lack of faith is keeping him sick.  This is beyond ignorant, I think it is actually evil, but it is what liw is prescribing. 

And of course, if "psychologists" had any real data supporting what liw claimed, it would have been cited, instead of telling us to go ask for it.  Give me a break!

Hey, what about that woman who was just arrested for the murder of a child?  You know, the Sunday school teacher?  Clearly she was mentally ill.  And clearly her church congregation didn't get her help, because God would take care of it. 

[lostinidlewonder]

It appears to me that liw has now overtaken susan not only in sheer volume of text produced but in following paths of logic undecipherable by mere mortals. 

What do you want any of us to respond to that? That your observation is true? Even if it is how does that observation help anyone in anyway? Well, at least you express your opinion if that makes you feel better. Just remember that humans in this world are individuals, it is useless to try and stereotype people to make yourself feel comfortable.

Truly, this is mindboggling.  God doesn't intervene in the present life OR the afterlife?  Christianity doesn't preach reward in the afterlife? 

I didn't say anything like this. You have taken a step too far in what we where discussing, that is, the existence of God. Considering any reward system is IRRELEVANT because if one does not have respect for a God there is no use discussing it. My point was that no one finds God in hope to improve their material gain in life nor does anyone find God in a hope for a life after death. These are selfish motivations which simply strip away at your sincerity. These things are addressed when you have a relationship with God but they are not the ropes that pull us towards him. Love is a greater force pulling us in Gods direction.

No time!  Goodness, after typing several sermons worth? 

I merely said I had no time, not because I couldn't respond but because I really ran out of time.

Having consulted a few psychologists and been in a few "institutions", I can confirm that there is a hell of a lot of people suffering from depression and other mental problems who have strong religious convictions.

If a belief in God comes from a faith NOT A DELUSION, then this belief will strengthen one mentally. You will be able to deal with stress in life you otherwise would not be able to deal with. Ask any Jew who survived the holocaust and they will tell you that without God they would have perished even though they physically survived. YES i agree that those who have some delusions with religion, their connection with God has little real relevance to their life now. For instance I couldn't imagine that someone who beleived they where Jesus Christ would use their delusion to make their life any better.

I am sorry but you are not looking in the right place if you do not agree that a belief in a God strengthens one mentally to deal with issues and also help with things that no human knowledge can deal with, eg: Death. Although we cannot deny there are people suffering with a delusion associated with God, this is not the norm and a minority of mainstream society. The majority who use God use it to strengthen their mental health and thus their physical.

[mrba1979]

Let me put it this way, any god(s) that allows someone like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot or there ilk to exist and do there horror to other people isn't worth praise, but worth damnation. Any god(s) that allows thousends of children and people to die horrible death through disease, abuse, hunger and whatnot isn't worth praise, but worth damnation.

You accuse the Americans of being arrogant?  So then the acts of the men which you referenced are what if not evil?

Not even the greatest of natural disasters have come close in numbers of people dead, disabled, impoverished and whatnot.

The greatest natural disaster of all is time.  All of our deaths loom in its presence. 

[gep]

The concept that God is the clockmaker was working off your statement that "God exists but he can do nothing about it thus nothing to worship". Your statement was assuming that God was the clockmaker. I was merely developing that logic and showing how one would develop worship if this was a fact. If you disagree that there is nothing to worship there when God is considered the clockmaker, he who sets and predetermines a state for "things" to occur, that would be interesting to hear.

You got me wrong completely there. I did not state that "God exists but he can do nothing about it thus nothing to worship" as being something I think real, but merely as one of three possibillities. As in a) there is a God and he is all-powefull, or b) there is a God and he is not all-powerfull or c) there is no God. I go for c). You were therefor not developing my logic, but rather twisting it around. Something the religious are quite good at, I might add.

NO religion soley bases their actions in their life now to better their afterlife.

Oh YES they do. Each religion prescribes how to behave in this life in order to get the heavenly afterlife. I you rid yourself of the idea of an afterlife, you then understand that you should behave in your life in a way that is decent in this life with regards to everybody else.

Do we ask God to serve the material world, asking him to provide materialistic gain in order to have a concept of belief in him, whether this be removing tyrants of history or having a objects to fill your life etc.

As is "please God make my harvest good", or "please God make me win this game", or "please God let Obama win/loose", or "please God cure my disease", etc etc. Or do you never ask anything from your God?

A relationship with God aims to have answer to death as well as what that means for our life now.

There is no answer to death, which means that the only chance you get is this life, and that means that what you do with or in your life regarding yourself or your realtion with others is your responsabillity and nobody else's. You cannot use some religion's rules or whatever to justify whatever it is you do or don't do, the choices you make are yours and nobody elses.

God is mysterious, no religion aims to explain what he is like and exactly how he behaves, that is unimportant.

Oh so very wrong, EVERY religion aims to explain EXACTLY what he/she/it/they ia or are like. Or do you attent a church (mosk, synagogue, temple, whatever) where the preaches starts with saying "I have no idea what I'm talking about"?

Why bother questioning the existence of the Devil if one does not believe in God? Taking a step too far.

You've got me wrong completely (again), I do not question the existence of the Devil; rather I do not question the fact that there is no Devil or any other diety, supernatural being or whatever. If YOU believe in a God, than you have to explain why you believe he allows the Devil to exist too.

if God totaly did not exist then we would have no one worshiping him.

No, this is total and utter bogus. You seem to say here that, since people worship god(s) they must be right in that believe. That is, frankly, nonsense. If god(s) exist, his/there existence would not depend on whether people worshipped them or not. If god(s) don't exist no matter how many people worship him/them would make them real.

Is it to try and shed light on the $ greed in religions? Is it trying to say, oh but they are all money making schemes?

Yes and yes. Especially if you exchange $ greed and money making schemes for power greed and dominance making schemes. For which $ is the main thing of course.

If you want an agrument in favor to the existence of God why not ask a psychologist to show you data relating to mental disease and a belief in God?

Such data would rather give an argument against the existence of God, and the fact that belief in god is a mental disease. In fact, it has been proven that if you stimulate a certain part of the brain the subject will experience a strong religious feeling. You may perhaps say that this proves the existence of God, I will say that it proves that religious feelings are part of our basic psychological makup, since it has been biologically benificial for the evolutional developement of mankind. Like the idea that blotting out a neighboring but not related tribe gives you acces to more resources. Religions have always been very good in regulating these things ("They worship the wrong gods, and our gods demand their obliteration, and our gods will give everything they have to us, and the best part to his temples, by the way.')

Most people can control depression with a relationship with God.

Not met very much people with serious depression, now have you? It are especially religious people who are vulnerable to depression and the like. Of course, the cosy idea of "god loves me" may help someone counter the effects of depression and such, but so can drugs.

Now you might say, oh this is delusional thinking to control yourself, people making things up etc.

At least here you understood me correctly. Some people need to fool themselves some of the time, but most people need to fool themselves all of the time. Of course, if you feel happy with or because of your religious feelings, that's utterly OK with me. I'm happy too.

They are not silly etc, just out of your reach for understanding.

No they are not. They are just, and happily so, beyond my reach of thinking nonsense things sane.

You must first honor God before you look deeper into religions otherwise you simply don't know what you are talking about.

The first part of this sentence is nonsense, the second part is wrong. I have looked quite deep into religions actually, that is WHY I have come to the conclusion they are all based on bogus.

Quote from: gep on April 18, 2009, 06:22:40 PM
Reality as one can see every day is rather different. Any religion is, by defenition, hostile to all others.

I like to see this definition proven, I doubt that a Buddist would attack a Christian,

Follow the news. A Buddist may no attack A Christian, but faiths as a whole are hostile to one another, one way or the other. Because you are Right, so they are Wrong.

we would treat one another like brothers and sisters, if we where true spiritual followers

we should treat one another like brothers and sisters, if we where truely decent people.

I haven't bothered talking about the rest of your post, no time.

I haven't bothered talking about the rest of your post, I've got more useful thing to do...

[Quote from: gep on April 18, 2009, 06:22:40 PM
Let me put it this way, any god(s) that allows someone like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot or there ilk to exist and do there horror to other people isn't worth praise, but worth damnation. Any god(s) that allows thousends of children and people to die horrible death through disease, abuse, hunger and whatnot isn't worth praise, but worth damnation.

You accuse the Americans of being arrogant?  So then the acts of the men which you referenced are what if not evil?

I fail to see the connection you apparently make. But I do think the USA as a country (and certainly it's Bush administration) is pretty arrogant, but so are most nations, including mine.
And if you didn't understand that I named the men I named as prime examples of human evil you haven't read my mail properly , or at all.

The greatest natural disaster of all is time.  All of our deaths loom in its presence. 

Time is no disaster, how could it be. If nothing came to and end, nothing could have a beginning. My death doesn't loom on me, even when to possible bad road to it does. Lots of people fear death so much that they forget to live.

Have a happy life!