Recording equipment advice.

[gerry]

I want to do some home recording of me on my Bosey 225. Can anyone give me some advice about equipment - microphone, etc. that would be adquate to achieve reasonably high-quality results? I'm not talking super high-end stuff but just need to get an idea of what I need to spend. Maybe someone knows of another website I can go to for this type of advice.

[richard black]

Look for 'Edirol R-09' via Google or other search engine. It's an all-in-one recorder, built in microphones and everything, records to SD card memory. I've got one and I'm quite impressed with it. You can easily upgrade it by using external mics. With a studio-quality mic and suitable external mic amp, I'm using it to master commercial CDs.

[bench warmer]

Also consider the Zoom H4. Very nice for $250-$300. Records WAV's or MP3 & can use ext.mic. Built in mics work fine. Records to Sd card. Do a Google search for best price and info.

[daniloperusina]

For microphones, I recommend a pair of small diaphragm omnidirectional studio condensers. They are perhaps the best at capturing your Bosie faithfully.

[jlh]

Here's an article from MIX magazine about recording piano.  You might find some good advice on there:

https://mixonline.com/recording/applications/audio_recording_piano/index.html

[jlh]

Also, have you considered a piano pick-up?

https://www.longselectronics.com/product.jsp?path=-1%7C12602&id=6717

Seems a lot of people have used this and other pick-ups with success.

This model will run you about $200.

Josh

[daniloperusina]

But always keep in mind: classical recordings, put the mics at a distance from the piano! In a home enviroment it's always difficult because of the lack of 'space' around the piano, and it usually sounds congested.
But there's actually a CD, 'Horowitz at Home', which is recorded in his living room. The sound is a bit strange...but still, the general technique, which they also use on that one, is to NOT put the microphones inside the lid, just over the strings etc etc, but a bit away from the piano. For example, 1, 5m from the floor, 1m from the piano, and facing the lid, so that you get the sound as reflected from the open lid.

This is perhaps straying a bit from the actual topic of this thread..

[gerry]

Wow - thanks for all the advice -just what I needed. This forum really is a great resource.

[rafant]

Good advice here:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,9818.0.html

[daniloperusina]

Yes, except some of the equipment. My AudioBuddy, when checking it, couldn't power two mics with 48V. It could power one though. In the end I had to through it out of the window!
And MXL 990, nice, but better options exist at the same price for recording specifically classical grand piano. But that, of course, depends on how you 'like' it to sound.

[gerry]

A little off the subject but wanted to share this regarding piano recording. My nephew, a successful software game designer in LA, has a hobby recording studio that he and his wife run on the side. Since all of my family is musical in one way or another, they decided to produce a family CD and invited us all to come and record. His wife, an accomplished USC piano grad, wanted to do a 4-hand with me. We prepared the Faure "Dolly Suite". Unfortunately, their studio only has two electronic pianos (full 88-key weighted thank God) in two separate rooms. We put on the headphones and recorded each on their own piano. The result was pretty amazing all things considered. The only gripe I had was that after I flew home, she was able to sit at her computer controls and artfully tweak all her mistakes out of her primo while my errors remained for posterity !!

[jlh]

Aww... you'd think she would've at least taked some of your mistakes out as an extension of her tweaking her own part... I mean they're both connected and dependant on one another.

[gerry]

She wouldn't dare be so presumptuous as to mess with MY mistakes!! Anyway, they were only wrong notes and such - it all turned out just fine. It all served as an education for me to see how easily things like this could be done with digital instruments.

[m]

Yes, except some of the equipment. My AudioBuddy, when checking it, couldn't power two mics with 48V. It could power one though. In the end I had to through it out of the window!

You through it out of the window
It is such a nice piece of a door stopper--it has rubber legs 

Actually, it does not give 48V even when idle. It is more like 42V, dropping rapidly under ANY load.

And MXL 990, nice, but better options exist at the same price for recording specifically classical grand piano. But that, of course, depends on how you 'like' it to sound.

The MXL990/603/991 are all the same microphone, where the 990 has exactly the same circuit and capsule, but in a fat LD body style. The 991 is a rebranded 603 for Musician Friends/Guitar Center.
The 991 usually comes in a bundle with 990, but sometimes you could find it separately for about $50. The nice thing about 603/991 is that unlike 990 they are a "pencil style" you can change their capsules to omni ($29 for a pair on ebay).
 
Oktava 012 are nice and sound much warmer than MXL and have very nice bass. The omni capsules are extra.

I still much prefer Studio Projects C4, which has better capsules, better circuit, and comes in matched pairs. It is somewhat more expensive (street price about $350), but worth if you can swing it.

Those are about the best budget choices and as Danilo has mentioned, there are many options on the market, but if you want to get a  significant quality increase then be prepared to pay THOUSANDS of $$$.

Best, M

[jlh]

Marik,

What do you think about piano pick-ups?  Are they useful at all for classical recordings?  Would they be good by themselves, or would it be better to mix the clarity of that with the ambiance of a room mic?  Or best to avoid?

[m]

Marik,

What do you think about piano pick-ups?  Are they useful at all for classical recordings?  Would they be good by themselves, or would it be better to mix the clarity of that with the ambiance of a room mic?  Or best to avoid?

They could be very usefull for jazz and pop piano.
For classical normally you'd want to use a distant miking. The only use of pickup I could see is in particularly bad rooms, with lotsa reflections and ringing, when you want to isolate piano sound from the room.

I never had a situation when I had to use more than 2 mics and don't like mixing the 3rd mic for clarity, as it creates even more problems.
If you want to experiment with 3 mics I'd rather suggest to have a close miked stereo pair and one room mic.

But you know, it is like with technique--it is impossible to give any suggestions out of context of certain situation.
In recording it will very much depend on piano, room, repertoire, or even performer.
And very often some things work the best when seemingly they should not work at all.

For example, remember where the mics were placed at Boesendorfer?--it was against of ANY rules of audio recording. Ask your teacher to listen to a recording (something on Imperial from Gala Concert)... and then compare to KBAQ, which did it according to the rules    .

P.S. As a side note, usually I spend anywhere between an hour and half up to 9 hours just for miking itself (i.e. finding the best microphone placement).

[daniloperusina]

Actually, it does not give 48V even when idle. It is more like 42V, dropping rapidly under ANY load.

The rascals..
Actually I noticed it when I borrowed two mics that have diods on them that light up when they are powered (forgot their names now), second mic plugged in and diods went off..

Thanks for all your insight Marik! Another question: budget two channel microphone preamplifier (or two one-channel ones)?
I've owned a focusrite green 1, which was lovely, and which is 'budget' as second hand nowadays.

[gerry]

Ongoing thanks for your input. Looks like a good thread in the works.

[m]

The rascals..
Actually I noticed it when I borrowed two mics that have diods on them that light up when they are powered (forgot their names now), second mic plugged in and diods went off..

Those are called LEDs (light emitting diodes)

Another question: budget two channel microphone preamplifier (or two one-channel ones)?
I've owned a focusrite green 1, which was lovely, and which is 'budget' as second hand nowadays.

Unfortunately, here we have not too many choices. Most of the budget ones to me sound all the same--dull and grainy.

IMO, there are only two noticable exceptions. First, funny, but actually aforementioned AudioBuddy is one of the cheapest and in fact, is very usable one  .
This is true its phantom power sucks big time, but the trick is to use it with outboard one. There are plenty of those for cheap (around $25-40 new on evil bay).

Then there is ART Digital MPA Gold which at about $275 new from ebay might seem not that budget, but this guy has a digital/analog converter, so by itself it is already a major step up, compare to feeding your analog audio into computer. Compare to a stereo pair of Studio Projects VTB1 this one seems to be a better option and better bang for your $$$.
 
And then there is Mini Me, which I'd consider the entry level to more serious recording, but it is already out of reach of most of folks here.

And of course, we have Great River (one channel), John Hardy, etc.. Not cheap, but you know what you pay for.

And I don't even get into tube stuff  .

Best, M

P.S. Oh yeah, if you are on a real budget and not looking for some fancy-shmancy stuff and highest quality, then aformentioned Zoom H4 would be also a good choice.
Use it as it is or with external microphones if you can afford them.

[m]

Oh, and BTW,

If you are recording on computer another option would be an older Digidesign M-Box or Digi001, which lately can be had for very cheap from ebay. Either one have a built-in phantom power, preamp, and converters, so you only have to add a pair of microphones. Additional bonus is they come in a bundle with ProTools (the Digi001 with 6.9 as a highest version, though), which has been an industry standard for many years.
Mbox works with any PT version. I'd recommend 7.0 and higher.

Be sure to research for compatability with your computer though, as with some processors/chipsets there are hickups and Mbox is particularly picky.

And don't forget, in order to make your setup complete and ready to go you will need a pair of microphone cables and microphone stand with a stereo bar.

Hope it helps.

Best, M