What created God?

[prometheus]

Yes, I suppose the only place intuition might have in science is the hypothesis.  The scientists must do their thing.

You will have to use it, but it is still bad.

You will have to make up ten new hypotheses and then finally you have one that matches the data. You are so happy, you think you have figured it out. And you so like your theory, it has to be true.

But then still 9 out of 10 times it is still wrong, even though at first it finally matches the data. The hard thing is to come to this realization. It's hard to be sure if the results of your experiments are actually what you think they are. It is extremely easy to fool yourself.

A lot of very talented people waste a lot of their careers by choosing the wrong field or the wrong theory. Maybe all those talented people working on String theory all waste their time.
But maybe not. We don't know yet. That's the point.


It's hard to know if something is really true. But you will have to make decisions on them nonetheless. So how do you successfully do that without knowing yet?

Maybe it would be better to let a dice determine this rather than your intuition. Maybe not. Or maybe you should just follow your intuition, because this would help motivation, and then hope it works out well.

[pianowelsh]

God isnt like Us he has no beginning he has no end he is the alpha and the omega. Its quite the reverse in fact we in some way are like God in that we are made to reflect his image - albeit imperfectly.  Noone has ever known in its complexity the mind of God - noone ever will.

[rc]

It's hard to know if something is really true. But you will have to make decisions on them nonetheless. So how do you successfully do that without knowing yet?

I guess there's no way around it, that's just the name of the game...  Not a scientist, but that reminds me of the famous quote of Edison after failing to create a lightbulb 5000 times or so - "Now I know 5000 ways not to make a lightbulb".

[wotgoplunk]

Why be depressed over things we cannot change - when Jesus Christ CAN change it?

I would like to ask you a quick question, pianistimo. I'm sure you've been asked it many a time before. If Jesus (and God) have the power to change things, why don't they. Why would you not prevent evil, and allow the world to live peacefully, if you had that capability? Why doesn't God just stop AIDS, stop famine, stop natural disasters, stop wars, etc.? Why punish everyone because a man took an apple? Is God sadistic?

[prometheus]

God created HIV and natural disasters. So why would he prevent them?

[wotgoplunk]

God created HIV and natural disasters. So why would he prevent them?

Because he's supposed to be omnibenevolent, if that's a word.

[prometheus]

He is. He uses those things to encourage us to behave well. You can only help or save other people if they need help. So he has us have good character.



Do you realise how much wisdom and selflessness this takes? It's not easy to cause so much suffering. But it is for our own good. It helps us in the end. And we get to go to heaven.

[wotgoplunk]

He is. He uses those things to encourage us to behave well. You can only help or save other people if they need help. So he has us have good character.



Do you realise how much wisdom and selflessness this takes? It's not easy to cause so much suffering. But it is for our own good. It helps us in the end. And we get to go to heaven.

To behave well? That's still rather cruel of him. Lots of innocent people die, so he can teach us a lesson? Killing innocent people is hypocritical of him as well. He goes around creating natural disasters and disease, and then tells everyone else not to kill.

It takes selflessness yes, but why does he do it? Wouldn't it be less selfish to free people from that? If he wants people to believe in him, why doesn't he directly convert them?

[prometheus]

Morality doesn't apply to god. He is above morality. Morality is only for humans because we need to proof that we should be let into heaven.

He wants us to believe in him. But he also gave us free will. It would have been easier to do it some other way, but then we would have been slaves of god. And we also couldn't have been rewarded for what we did not do.


So there is really no alternative. God gave us free will and gives us lots of opportunities to show our goodness. It would have been cruel if he expected us to be compassionate but never gave us the opportunity to show compassionate behavior.


Anyway, the suffering of people is really not important in the end. If we do well we will go to heaven. If we don't its our own fault

And do you really think people that made it to heaven still care about how the suffered on earth? No, they don't. It was so small a price to pay, they won't even realise that they had suffered.


No, real suffering is only known by those that go to hell. And that's their own choice.

[wotgoplunk]

Morality doesn't apply to god. He is above morality. Morality is only for humans because we need to proof that we should be let into heaven.He wants us to believe in him. But he also gave us free will. It would have been easier to do it some other way, but then we would have been slaves of god. And we also couldn't have been rewarded for what we did not do.

But does he give free will? It isn't free will if we have to rigidly follow a set of prescribed rules. He says: You must believe in exactly this, or else you go to hell. That's not free will. That's bribery.

So there is really no alternative. God gave us free will and gives us lots of opportunities to show our goodness. It would have been cruel if he expected us to be compassionate but never gave us the opportunity to show compassionate behavior.

So what you're saying here, is that God gave suffering, so he could see compassion? I see how that might work, but people can still be compassionate without God, couldn't they? Such a simple thing as holding a door open for someone can be considered compassion, and no suffering is involved. If anything, the person with compassion ends up suffering the most.

Anyway, the suffering of people is really not important in the end. If we do well we will go to heaven. If we don't its our own fault. And do you really think people that made it to heaven still care about how the suffered on earth? No, they don't. It was so small a price to pay, they won't even realise that they had suffered. No, real suffering is only known by those that go to hell. And that's their own choice.

You're just going to turn a blind eye to all the suffering in the world, because it isn't going to matter in the end? That doesn't seem particularly selfless.

Hell is choice to go against what the Bible says in other words. Which leads me to the next thread I'm going to create.

[prometheus]

Just trying to show how easy it is to rationalize an absurd belief.


Yes, the best point you could make against that theology is that God could get us to act compassionate, or not, through other means.

[rimv2]

Just trying to show how easy it is to rationalize an absurd belief.


Yes, the best point you could make against that theology is that God could get us to act compassionate, or not, through other means.

Yes, ah suppose ah could. But where would the fun in that be

[pianistimo]

when you are born you don't really know who your parents are until they reveal themselves to you by various acts.  namely of taking care of you (feeding, clothing, nurturing).  but, when you get to be a teenager - sometimes you do not give them the honor they deserve - and they keep feeding, clothing, and nurturing you no matter what.  this is the kind of love that God has for the entire world.  he doesn't instantly punish wrongdoers - but he does say that that behavior is bad because it harms others.  now, if you truly loved the murderer as much as the murdered - you would go to a certain length to make sure that they have had enough knowledge to understand their predicament and change (repent).  we are all murderers in the sense of turning away from God at certain times in our lives and harming others either intentionally or not intentionally.  even to be angry at a person 'without cause' - is murder - in Jesus teaching.  so - do we have to kill a person or can we just withhold praise, honor, and love?  this is also murder.  to keep someone from feeling safe and to tell 'dirt' about others.


now, if God IS LOVE - then we can trust Him above ALL others.  and the true being we should bare our souls to is not other people but God Himself.  he can make our sins and the sins of others be cast as far as east is from west.  His cleansing power makes life renewed and happy and focused - instead of worried (esp when we do not include God in our thoughts) and fearful.

we don't know the future,  we don't even know what will happen two seconds from now.  we know that God has included in this earth the capabilities for man and nature to 'collide' and cause great destruction.  one form is the destruction caused by man not fearing God and in fact - spitting in His face.  another form is the natural disasters that would happen whether we are good or evil.  if we die - death is no longer our master - so in that respect we don't worry whether we die now or later.  we already KNOW - it is appointed for all men to die once and then the judgement.  whether we die in a natural disaster or in a chair at 70+ years of age - we are going to die.  death isn't really the problem (it's the pain that we worry about probably). 

God is able to allow only as much as we can bear.  He has told us that if we trust Him he will deliver us from problems here on this earth as well as safely deliver us to Himself on the other side.  so - we needn't worry if we will die this way or that.  our minds are with Him.  but, the 'evil one' seeks to harm on a daily and minute by minute basis.  not just harming physically but mentally.  satan is our accuser and wants us to feel terrible about ourselves, our potential (as spirit filled entities which will rise again at the ressurrection), and about our spiritual future.  this is not from God and so we know that he is a created being to test our spirits.  (although, God did not create him evil at the beginning- but full of light).

Satan also wants to be worshipped.  why else would he test Christ before his earthly ministry started.  'if you will bow down and worship me - i will give you all the kingdoms of the world....'  so - as Christians - no matter how difficult or how lacking in money we might be at times - we do not become discouraged by the way things look.  things can look unfair.  things can look deceptively good.  we know to be cautious and 'wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove.'  in this way - God can also tell us 'this is my beloved son/daughter in whom i am well pleased.'

[rimv2]

when you are born you don't really know who your parents are until they reveal themselves to you by various acts.  namely of taking care of you (feeding, clothing, nurturing).  but, when you get to be a teenager - sometimes you do not give them the honor they deserve - and they keep feeding, clothing, and nurturing you no matter what.  this is the kind of love that God has for the entire world.  he doesn't instantly punish wrongdoers - but he does say that that behavior is bad because it harms others.  now, if you truly loved the murderer as much as the murdered - you would go to a certain length to make sure that they have had enough knowledge to understand their predicament and change (repent).  we are all murderers in the sense of turning away from God at certain times in our lives and harming others either intentionally or not intentionally.  even to be angry at a person 'without cause' - is murder - in Jesus teaching.  so - do we have to kill a person or can we just withhold praise, honor, and love?  this is also murder.  to keep someone from feeling safe and to tell 'dirt' about others.


now, if God IS LOVE - then we can trust Him above ALL others.  and the true being we should bare our souls to is not other people but God Himself.  he can make our sins and the sins of others be cast as far as east is from west.  His cleansing power makes life renewed and happy and focused - instead of worried (esp when we do not include God in our thoughts) and fearful.

we don't know the future,  we don't even know what will happen two seconds from now.  we know that God has included in this earth the capabilities for man and nature to 'collide' and cause great destruction.  one form is the destruction caused by man not fearing God and in fact - spitting in His face.  another form is the natural disasters that would happen whether we are good or evil.  if we die - death is no longer our master - so in that respect we don't worry whether we die now or later.  we already KNOW - it is appointed for all men to die once and then the judgement.  whether we die in a natural disaster or in a chair at 70+ years of age - we are going to die.  death isn't really the problem (it's the pain that we worry about probably). 

God is able to allow only as much as we can bear.  He has told us that if we trust Him he will deliver us from problems here on this earth as well as safely deliver us to Himself on the other side.  so - we needn't worry if we will die this way or that.  our minds are with Him.  but, the 'evil one' seeks to harm on a daily and minute by minute basis.  not just harming physically but mentally.  satan is our accuser and wants us to feel terrible about ourselves, our potential (as spirit filled entities which will rise again at the ressurrection), and about our spiritual future.  this is not from God and so we know that he is a created being to test our spirits.  (although, God did not create him evil at the beginning- but full of light).

Satan also wants to be worshipped.  why else would he test Christ before his earthly ministry started.  'if you will bow down and worship me - i will give you all the kingdoms of the world....'  so - as Christians - no matter how difficult or how lacking in money we might be at times - we do not become discouraged by the way things look.  things can look unfair.  things can look deceptively good.  we know to be cautious and 'wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove.'  in this way - God can also tell us 'this is my beloved son/daughter in whom i am well pleased.'

Satan. AAHAHHAAHHA

Meh and Satan had a chat the other day. You'd think that after eons he'd have gotten over being cast out. But man can that dude hold a grudge.

[pianowelsh]

Was gonna post ---but you know I just cant be bothered!! Im gonna go and pray for you guys instead.

[wotgoplunk]

Was gonna post ---but you know I just cant be bothered!! Im gonna go and pray for you guys instead.

ARGUMENT FOR GOD'S EXISTENCE FROM PRAYER
(1) God exists.
(2) [Atheist makes counterarguments.]
(3) You have my prayers.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

[rob47]

Was gonna post ---but you know I just cant be bothered!! Im gonna go and pray for you guys instead.

AHAHAHHAH get off your high horse you twat.  Why don't you just go pray for them and keep it to yourself? Why did you need to post that information (after saying you were going to post but decided not to); it is at worst unchristian and best extremely immature.

you are very insecure with your faith.

i will pray for you

/thread over

[pianistimo]

is prayer something bad that someone does for someone else.  that they would need to keep it a secret?  i say - pray out loud and at all times without ceasing.  twat to anyone who thinks otherwise.   

*yes i am avoiding cleaning the kitchen floor.  i often pray whilst cleaning, btw.

ps /thread not over until God says it is.  I AM is God.  I AM says the teapot means nothing unless you fill it up.  you have to put a little fire under it, too. 

[ramseytheii]

is prayer something bad that someone does for someone else.  that they would need to keep it a secret?  i say - pray out loud and at all times without ceasing. 



twat to anyone who thinks otherwise.   

How about Jesus?

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.  But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

Walter Ramsey

[jlh]

HAHA wow.

You do know that he was talking about people who would use religion for social or political gain, like the members of the Sanhedrin...?  Those people were hypocrites, and that's who he's referring to.  If you were to use this passage as a basis for a theology of prayer, then you would have to ignore other passages that say things like "wherever 2 or more are gathered together in My name, there I am also...".

I think he was also trying to get the point across that God wants to be personally involved in our lives, and not just a spectator who listens only when we make a public effort.

I think you should first look to yourself when complaining about "picking and choosing", because from what I see, you are much more of a scavenger when it comes to picking things that support your arguments than Christians are.