Students who lie about practicing

[thalberg]

I require my students to write down their practice time daily so I can see it at the end of the week.

I've had a lot of students write in perfect practice times, only to know nothing about their lessons.  They are obviously lying.

What do you do in situations like that?

(So far, I avoid using the word 'lying.'  I just say in a level tone, 'so you didn't practice, you just wrote down that you did?'  Haha...this last girl just nodded her head like it was no big deal.)

[pianistimo]

don't attempt to inflict moral lessons on her.  it will only make her cry.  then you will have to spend the 1/2 hour attempting to get her to stop.  ignore that particular problem and just keep repeating the lesson as many times as it takes for it to sink in.  pleasurable experiences with piano lessons = no cancellations.  thus, more money for you.  of course, i don't mean that i'm just in it for the money - but unless the parents become perturbed with YOU over her lack of practice - let her take a year for a week.  who's losing?

[daniloperusina]

Talk to the parents. They obviously don't understand that piano is not something you do just once a week (the lesson).

They, the child as well as the parents, wouldn't dream of such a situation in for example the maths class in school. There, for some reason, they understand that you must do your homework.

Or suggest that they seek up another type of weekly musical activity, something like 'kindergarten fun clapping hands singing along banging hard on fun types of rythm instruments' for which they are not expected to practice at home.

[pianistimo]

actually, i was kinda teasing.  agreed that the parents should see reasonable progress for the amount of lessons.  what i think is most motivating to younger people is to have a master class  at the end of the month where they hear their friends playing.  then, they won't be thinking in terms of minutes practiced (although i used this chart thingy for the first one or two years, also) and more about quality of work.  also, they will be slightly but not terribly competitive to show what they can do at the end of the week.

i used to tell students they MUST practice the same amount of time as the lesson on a daily basis (barring sickness/vacation) to maintain lessons with me.  that is something you can decide to enforce at a later date if the student is fairly new and hasn't 'caught on' to the fun in music and the performance side of it.  usually students like to perform.

[thalberg]

Or suggest that they seek up another type of weekly musical activity, something like 'kindergarten fun clapping hands singing along banging hard on fun types of rythm instruments' for which they are not expected to practice at home.

Yes.  I will do that.  "Excuse me, perhaps your child isn't quite ready for an instrument that one has to practice...."

[pianistimo]

spending time worrying exactly how much time they praticed takes away from valuable lesson time.  i feel now, after having taught for a while, that young students (just like adults) have many reasons that some weeks don't go well.  it could be homework, family problems (of which a lot of students get bothered by something and can't concentrate), or just hormonal stuff that comes and goes. 

i would choose the battle instead over the child's interest.  ask the child directly, 'how much time do you honestly think you will have for practice next week?'  if it is lower than your current expectation - consider a compromise - but hold them to the amount they say.  then gradually increase it again.  i think children are not monkeys - and that of course, they will attempt to look good even when a particular week has been bad.  i wouldn't throw the 'baby out with the bathwater.'

[daniloperusina]

Yes.  I will do that.  "Excuse me, perhaps your child isn't quite ready for an instrument that one has to practice...."

I've done that twice, actually..to great effect

[amelialw]

ask the child if she/he wants to learn piano in the 1st place. Most kids don't practise because they are not interested at all or they are just lazy.
If the child does'nt seem to tell the truth or respond, ask the parents whether they are committed and will help/motivate the child at home.

[wotgoplunk]

Since when do students lie about their practice times? I do three hours a day! Honest!   

I think the best thing to do would be to make a little remark: "Oh, you did lots of practice this week. Everything should be good then."

Sooner or later they'll get the idea, imo.

[amelialw]

I don't lie about my practise time either, but there are many who do especially kids

[counterpoint]

I think, practising is so much fun, why should one have to force (or even urge) anybody to do it? 

Am I serious? Yes, I am. I'm very convinced, that one should not practise, if there is not that inner desire to play and practise a piece. Forced practising destroys the musical sense.

[amanfang]

I think, practising is so much fun, why should one have to force (or even urge) anybody to do it?

Am I serious? Yes, I am. I'm very convinced, that one should not practise, if there is not that inner desire to play and practise a piece. Forced practising destroys the musical sense.

I think that's true at a certain level.  On the other hand, as an elementary student, I HATED taking piano lessons.  My mother both forced me to take lessons and also set the timer every day on the piano, and I was NOT allowed to get up until the timer went off.  Now I love piano.  Had she let me quit or not made me practice, I would not be where I am today.  On the flip side, I didn't make progress as quickly as I *could* have, but nonetheless.  At the level I'm at now though, I rarely practice when I don't feel like it.  It ends up being a waste of time.  Sometimes I try and just discipline myself to overcome whatever I may be feeling.  But if I try and it's still a waste of time, I stop.

[amelialw]

Usually, even if your parents force you to practise when you're a kid it will eventually reach the point where the kids dislikes it so much and starts to rebel or the kid realises that he/she wants it for herself/himself.

My mom and dad never pushed me that much except exam time, most of the practise I did on my own but it never was very organized at all nor effective because of the fact that my old teacher never taught me how to practise. My present teacher though, took things right into hand and started to change everything.

Right now, there's always a self-motivation for me. If I don't wake up early in the morning to practise, I will stay up late hours in the night to finish it off...I don't know why, suddenly since the beginning of this year, I always have that.

Practise is so much fun, and the desire to want to practise that piece must be there otherwise it's usless.

It's said that nowadays there are many kids who have the opportunity but don't want to make the most of it.

[lau]

i always lied about my practice time and i think i turned out fine. But now when my teacher asks if I practice is just say no.

[counterpoint]

i always lied about my practice time and i think i turned out fine. But now when my teacher asks if I practice is just say no.

 

[alzado]

I wonder if the nature of the material could have an effect on morale.

With some of the graded books assigned to children, the student masters a piece, the teacher puts a gold star on it, then they turn the page.  Whatever is there on the next page is what the student must work to learn.  Occasionally in those old childhood days, I would turn the page and find something I rather hated. 

Another issue could be the degree of polish.  A recital piece must be highly polished and totally mastered.  That is their nature.  So the student might be made to work on it for weeks.  I remember getting deathly tired of "Fur Elise" or whatever the recital piece happened to be.

I don't mean to say you assign material in this manner.  I'm just trying to come up with a situation where the student would get really down about practicing.

[penguinlover]

One thing I noticed, we tell the student to "practice".  They may not know how to practice.  I always spend a few minutes each lesson helping the student plan the next week of practice.  I tell them how to spend their time to maximize their results.  Much of what kids do (and adults too I guess) at the piano is not real practice, it is just playing.  When I started teaching "How to Practice" they seemed to do much better.

The time they spend practicing is not as important as the results.

[valor]

I used to lie to my teacher about peices i practiced on because the peices were boring, maybe the same is true for you students?

[mcgillcomposer]

I require my students to write down their practice time daily so I can see it at the end of the week.

I've had a lot of students write in perfect practice times, only to know nothing about their lessons.  They are obviously lying.

What do you do in situations like that?

(So far, I avoid using the word 'lying.'  I just say in a level tone, 'so you didn't practice, you just wrote down that you did?'  Haha...this last girl just nodded her head like it was no big deal.)

Beat them...or make them listen to Stockhausen...they'll NEVER lie again.

[sassafras]

OMG!!!!! You people are AWFUL. I NEVER practiced regularly for the first 10 years of lessons and was somehow lucky enough to be able to play most pieces for my teacher at the lesson with only a few "repeats" ...Turkey in the Straw and anything at 126 or faster brought instant despair.

My teacher for the first 8 years of lessons encouraged me and encouraged my playing even if she knew the only time I practiced was at her lesson. She was a remarkable woman, Cincinnati Conservatory trained and NY Philharmonic guest pianist, who believed it was all for the LOVE OF THE MUSIC. Each of us learns in different ways.

We are not all meant to be concert pianists nor music professionals -- some of us play because we simlply like to.

Because I had a teacher that taught the sheer joy of music I have always maintained a love of music and a very expensive CD/cassette/vinyl habit over the years.

If you make the lesson enjoyable -- if not fun -- your students will play.

My teacher for the first 8 years had me playing all sorts of music, 12 -15 pieces a week -- some of them 3 levels above the assigned John Thompsons selections. When I switched to university piano lessons I hated them because my teacher  would have me spend 6 weeks on one piece -- and that is why, even though a level 10 by the time I finished my sophomore year in high school, I decided not to major in piano and not to pursue a career in performance.

I play just for the love of music. I may not play fancy and complicated and I certainly do not appease my drunken, redneck neighbors, except for some Johnny Cash selections, but I do play and wish I had more time to play.

[pipes]

That's a wonderful testament to your teacher.  I will read that again.




Students only lie when they think they have to.  They want their teachers to think well of them, or at the least not get mad at them or rat them out to their parents.




I keep my students busy.   They play a lot of pieces and  I explain how to practice (someone wrote a great post about this earlier).  I never have them write down practice times, in fact I tell them don't look at the clock.  You're not playing the clock, play the piano and really listen and get something done.  I think I make it easy for them to be honest with me.  I used to drill them about their practice times and routines and they lied to me.  They never lie to me now because they don't have to.  They always practice something because they have plenty of music. 


Sometimes they skip things in practice and I can tell because they are reluctant to start playing it.  When this happens I don't embarass them by making them play it anyway.  I say, "Maybe you didn't get to this piece this week.  Would you like some help on it or do you just need a little more time?"  Usually they choose to practice it more and perform it for me next lesson.  Every time I do this they have the piece completely learned the next week.  Plus we have kept things honest and they trust me.  They know I'm there to help them get better, not to get my own way or force them into compliance with scolding and humiliation.  If you make it a power struggle, nothing good will happen in the lesson and the student won't grow.     

Nothing works with everyone, you can't always get people to practice.  Even when they like to play and love their teacher.  You can still make the lesson a special time and help them be more engaged with the music, and over time even the reluctant will want to practice. 

[nyonyo]

Phil,

If they do not like to practice, there is nothing you can do.
Since they did not practice at home, you make them practice with you during the lesson.
To be honest, piano teacher at your level should not deal with this kind of students.
These students belong to neighborhood piano teachers who charge $20 per hour.

To attract good students, why don't you give away like 3 scholarship to good students. Audition them first, if you think they have potential, you take them as a student and they do not need to pay. As a return, they will play for your student recital, over and over again!!! Basically, you use them to show off, since they did not pay you for their lessons.

Once people see that you are a good teacher, people will start coming to you, and then you can get rid of your not so desirable students.

What do you think???

[thalberg]

Pipes, I'm glad that works for you.  You sound like you relate very well to your students.

Nyonyo, I definitely am in favor of getting rid of bad students who do not practice.  You are correct that it takes time to develop a reputation good enough to allow you to be selective.

One of the greatest piano teachers I know did say, though, that even at the end of her career she had to deal with bad students.  This teacher considered them her "coffee break."  Funny thing is, one of my friends fell victim to that.  She literally went and got her coffee during his lesson, so out of the 30 minutes he got about 15.

[thalberg]

Mwahaha....another funny story about Miss Olga.

She liked to order people around, but as a Yugoslavian, her English was not always, shall we say, idiomatic.

She wanted to water her plants, so she told a student named Dianna to go "to the toilet" and fill up the watering container with water......she simply meant "the bathroom," but Dianna didn't know this.

So Dianna went to the bathroom, entered a stall, and began to dip the container into the toilet.  She did not realize Miss Olga had followed her into the bathroom and was standing behind her, so she jumped about ten feet when Miss Olga yelled from behind, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING??"

[timothy42b]

They, the child as well as the parents, wouldn't dream of such a situation in for example the maths class in school. There, for some reason, they understand that you must do your homework.

I used to use the math example too, but perhaps American football (or any high school sport) is a better example.

Parents encourage their kids, especially boys, to participate.  This is not because any appreciable number will ever develop the skill to play as a career, just as far less than 1% of piano students go on to music conservatories. 

It is because they think they will learn some "life lessons" through sports.  Parents send their kids to piano lessons for the same reasons I think.  They think there are benefits that may not depend on developing high degrees of skill, therefore they aren't so concerned if the child doesn't practice.  The one who is frustrated and eventually infuriated is the teacher.  That is because the teacher's goal IS to develop skill and not teach life lessons. 

[nyonyo]

Funny thing is, one of my friends fell victim to that.  She literally went and got her coffee during his lesson, so out of the 30 minutes he got about 15.

When I was small, I and my older sister took lesson at Yamaha music school. There were about 6 kids in the class without parents. This particular teacher taught us for about 30 min, the rest of the time she just went out of the class to chat or eat her snack or etc. At the time, nobody was dare to say anything and stupid me why I did not tell my parents. Now I start taking lesson again from a concert pianist ( a good one in Chicago), if he is dare to use me as his coffee breaker student, I will make sure that he will come back to the room and teach me. I cannot really tell him off because at this moment, I do not know where to find a good piano teacher .  But later, when I become more familiar with the piano industry in the Chicago area, I may change my position  if I am mistreated. So far he is very good.

[amelialw]

that's terrible. My current piano teacher because she teaches me at her home sometimes she'll still be having her breakfast when I go over and if she starts a little late, she will add the time back at that end.

Yes, practise is extremely important, I only have 2 students now and I enforce that to them. Sometimes though, if a student starts to slack, i'll suggest something new and that will make him/her excited again. I have dropped one student though because she refused to practise and I could see that there was no improvement or she constantly fell back every 2 weeks.

And Nyonyo, In some way I agree with you. I still think you should charge that student's parents for lessons but perhaps charge a little less. My teacher does that for me and if she exceeds time she just gives it as a freebie because she said that I always deserve it.

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings

I see no reason to drop students. Forcing them to stay on task will be impossible, and dropping them will mean a big loss in income, as the other children will think that they are being mistreated because since you dropped that one particular kid, they should have the honors too. What you do is simply not waste energy on them. If they do not practice, so be it, it is their fault and not yours.  Spend time on students that are worth your efforts and screw the ignorant children that are not worth anything.

I think the reasons why most parents want their child to take piano lessons is mainly for the notion that "my son/daughter plays piano." Simply that. It's a veneer and nothing more. In fact, you can use that to your advantage. Why strain for kids that waste your time and ultimately waste theirs? Simply keep them and don't care about them not practicing. They will bring you the money you need, and ultimately not get any benefit for themselves. It is their choice.

[nyonyo]

There are two kinds of piano teacher.

1. Those who do not care about the well being of the students as long as he or she still earns monies.

2. Those who cares and try his or her best to ensure that the students learn.

All depends on your value.

[debussy symbolism]

There are two kinds of piano teacher.

1. Those who do not care about the well being of the students as long as he or she still earns monies.

2. Those who cares and try his or her best to ensure that the students learn.

All depends on your value.

That is entirely true. However, what is the point in trying to inculcate education to a student that isn't prone to learning and doesn't want to learn in the first place. It is unwise to spend energy on them. If they are recalcitrant to learning, then it is their own fault for not understanding that that money comes out of their pocket.

[pipes]

Keeping students against their will perpetuates the myth that music lessons are painful drudgery and that being kept on by the teacher is a “mistreatment," as suggested above. 


As students and performers ourselves, how many of us have perfectly sustained our high level of interest every day or every lesson since we started as children?  Even as committed professionals, we still struggle with practicing, with keeping pieces alive for ourselves, with staying motivated when we’re tired or encounter obstacles.  I don’t expect children to have this all figured out when career pianists are still dealing with it.


Also, how many people here were pushed into childhood activities for which we had no natural interest or ability?  The resultant painful experiences:  not pleasing a teacher or other adult, not fitting in, being forced to participate in sports, dance, academics etc beyond our ability to succeed, being kept away from the things we care about to satisfy what our parents care about.  Is that what we want our studios to be about?  Take the money and whatever happens, happens... as if a child’s interest and happiness were of no concern to us?       


There are many levels of interest among our students.  Occasionally the interest is so low that productive lessons are not possible.  In that case, the parents have a responsibility to find a more fulfilling occupation for the child.  And experienced teachers have a responsibility to let parents know that the lessons are not going to work.  They rely on our professional judgment.  If lessons continue, they may assume everything’s fine.  But when a child reluctantly attends lessons with a teacher who in turn resents him, everything is not fine.  By the way, it is unlikely that a teacher could harbor such disdain for a student as described in an above post without the student realizing it.  Children have a pretty sharp radar about the adults they spend time with, especially one-on-one.  If a low-interest student has a teacher who clearly resents and disrespects him, his interest is not going to blossom, and he’s certainly not going to practice more to please that teacher. 


It is not reasonable to expect equal interest and investment from each student just because a parent signed him up for lessons.  If we all had equally high desire to play the piano, nothing else would get done in the world.  It is reasonable to expect this diversity, accept it graciously, keep the students who want to be with you, and tactfully free the others to pursue their real interests.   


Lastly, it is always worth the effort to treat children well, even behind their backs.         

[pianistimo]

i still think that it depends on the chances that students have to perform the music they practice.  after all, music isn't meant to be in a vaccum.  you practice it so you can play it for others.  after the first 'master class' (we just call it thi s- even if the teacher isn't a true master - per se).  i used to call my own 'parties' sometimes - but the intent was a sort of master class experience.  to practice how it feels to be on stage.

i remember my college teacher letting us play our pieces all the way through every friday afternoon - for the other students.  this was more motivating than a chart.  we knew that if we played badly  it looked badly for us and nobody else.  it wasn't like 'oh, mom is checking my practice chart' which means nil in the real world.  it's what you do with that music!

a thought occurred to me - as well - how on this forum we enjoy dueling with one person at a time.  a teacher could pair up two students and have them play for each other if they live in close proximity.  sometime during each week the students would all have an opportunity to perform.  partly what they already know - to keep it in repertoire - and partly a page or so of new music.  with or without the score.

[thalberg]

Personally I don't feel ethical in taking money if students are not learning.

Basically, if the student didn't practice despite repeated warnings, I would charge them for the lesson and send them home without teaching them.   Then at least we're all being honest about the fact that nothing is being accomplished and money is changing hands.  So far I have not had to do this.

[pianistimo]

students always learn something during the lesson.  if they sincerely don't want to be there - it is different than not having learned the discipline of a practice schedule.  that might take up to six months for recalcitrant students who get their school homework done and practice only 10 minutes before eating dinner and going to bed.

but, i do think (and this is from teaching 7 year who was like this at the beginning) the first year or so teaches a student a great deal about discipline.  * and that is why, imo, a chart is still helpful.

many teachers tire of the very young students for this reason.  it's boring to keep going over similar lessons as the last time - although if a student has even practiced 10 minutes a day - you will have gone past the last lessons (a review) and added something else to the pot.

perhaps, if one only wants 'the good' students - one should only interview the parents!  it seems that every nationality excepting some american parents make their children practice the required time methodically every day.  i think americans are catching on, though.  here in pennsylvania - parents are extremely involved in the children's education.

[joyfulmusic]

I give my students a tally box and tell them it is for them to keep track of how many times they are practicing.  i ask them how many times they think they will be able to practice in the coming week.  First week they may only have one mark.  We talk about it.  I use this with 6 - 8 year olds and it really works.  It helps them to see themselves in the driver's seat. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Instead of asking a student to write in their times, write a list of TO DO points. This is what I do for the majority of my students and when I come to the lesson the following week the first thing we do is go through the list.

eg:

1) Bar 4-8 BH Highlight difficult coordination parts with lines connecting the notes.
2) Bar 2-23 RH only, take notice of patterns, highlight groups put in fingerings.
3) Bar 8-15 LH only draw shapes describing the group of notes

and so on.

Each point asks for a particular aim. They must demonstrate it, their sheet music has to be altered, always look different from the previous week. I always ask students to color in their music to highlight pattern.

I will also ask them to explain to me in words what they have been doing before we sit down for the lesson. What pieces have they been practicing, what they found hard, easy etc. Those who practice always have a lot to say, those who don't practice just say, oh I play a bit of this and that and are very stingy with the words they use to explain themselves. It is not like I need them to tell me what they have been doing, I just like to do it so we can start thinking about music, and I can measure how much work they have been doing or not. If they haven't done much work I know I will have to repeat things we went through last week, if they did a lot I know I just have to patch up difficult points they had and then get ready to move on to the next parts.

I need to write in point form exactly what I need from my students so I can know what we are doing when I sit down. I can't remember what everyone does so I need to have it all written down in point form for myself and for them to mark off so they know they did was I wanted from them.

I am confident in saying Time is bad to use to measure your musical practice. Rather measure what you do in the work you get through. I try to beat that into my students with these points, this is the work that needs to be done, it might take you 10 mins to get through one it might take u hours. You might not even achieve it by next weeks lesson, but I would like to know that you know this by actually trying it yourself by yourself.

[penguinlover]

I like that approach!  It is a simple one, but much more specific than I have done in the past.  I think I will try it!