Banging the Piano

[cloches_de_geneve]

Somehow, I always thought people were speaking more or less metaphorically when they talked about "banging" the piano -- until I saw this ...

https://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=tWvYtfOOjhM&mode=related&search=

[cmg]

What a spectacle!  That may be the most raucous, histrionic, affected performance of Liszt on record.  Awful.   

[ronde_des_sylphes]

What a spectacle!  That may be the most raucous, histrionic, affected performance of Liszt on record.  Awful.   

But extremely funny 

[soderlund]

Hahaha look at his feet, at the worst times. I laughed my way through this.

Seriously though, his actual playing wasn't beautiful either, I think. Worst showoff performance I've ever seen.

[nicco]

Now there's a good banging.

From 02:25 and out it gets really hot.

[opus10no2]

What a spectacle!  That may be the most raucous, histrionic, affected performance of Liszt on record.  Awful.   

Awful?

This is what is known as a TRUWAY interpretation.

His technique doesn't match his fury, but if it did, I couldn't imagine a more sensetive interpretation.

[counterpoint]

His technique doesn't match his fury, but if it did, I couldn't imagine a more sensetive interpretation.

Okay, 95% of the notes are wrong, the rhythm is wrong, the pedal is wrong, the dynamic is wrong - but wow - the fury 

[jlh]

Somehow, I always thought people were speaking more or less metaphorically when they talked about "banging" the piano -- until I saw this ...

https://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=tWvYtfOOjhM&mode=related&search=

He looked like a kid throwing a temper tantrum.  Look at his bow at the end... he even stomps off stage!

Incredible... 

[lostinidlewonder]

Lol.... it is always amusing to see a piece play the performer instead

[thalberg]

What kind of piano is that?  It said something on the side beginning with an "R" I think.  What was it?  Anyone know? 

[invictious]

Wait still you see me playing Bartok.
Now THAT is bashing the piano WITH fashion and taste.

Mischa Kottler sure hell created an 'orage', what a storm....

And to the video that nicco posted:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHA AHHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH





*breathes*





HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA AT 2:25!!!!


HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA





.....

*breathes again*



HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAH

[cmg]

Awful?

This is what is known as a TRUWAY interpretation.

His technique doesn't match his fury, but if it did, I couldn't imagine a more sensetive interpretation.

Okay.  For the very last time.  (Even my patience has its limits.) 

OPUS:  This is a perfect example of your adolescent artistic aethestic.  "Extremism" is not a virtue.  It's an example of excess.  But emotional adolescents like you perceive extremism as the pinnacle of artistic achievement.  The ancient Greek philosophers discovered the principle of the "golden mean" well before you were born.  As a metaphor, it points in the direction of an aesthetic whose gravitational weight hovers around that which is not exreme.  Why?  Well, because life and art, for true adults, is about the gray areas, not about black and white.  There are no absolutes in a universe that is characerized by ceaseless change.  Therefore, we must be pragmatic.  Nothing, ultimately, is "black or white."

Your adulation of this embarrassing display of adolescent exhibitionism is typical of your critical  responses to music.  This performance -- even if refined by an improved technical approach -- would be crude and childish, by any mature musician's standard.

Was it Wordsworth ( or Coleridege) who said that poetry is emotion recollected in tranquility?  No matter, the point is that unrestrained emotionalism is not high art, it's simply the absence of discipline that renders art memorable.  Without discipline, it's only narcissism. 

This crude "Orage" that you admire is a perfect example of performance narcissism.  And if you find this performance to be significant, then you have a real problem.  Fix it, please.  Your defense of trash is growing tedious.   

[jlh]

Awful?

This is what is known as a TRUWAY interpretation.

His technique doesn't match his fury, but if it did, I couldn't imagine a more sensetive interpretation.

Why must all of your posts ooze with sex appeal?

 

[cmg]

Why must all of your posts ooze with sex appeal?

 

Simple validation of his arrested development:  he's still a thirteen-year-old male emotionally.

[jlh]

Simple validation of his arrested development:  he's still a thirteen-year-old male emotionally.

Just to let you know... I was referring to this:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,26268.msg299691.html#msg299691

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings

It was an interesting video I admit.

[mcgillcomposer]

I wonder what that guy is like in bed!!!

[jlh]

I wonder what that guy is like in bed!!!

I dunno, but goatse.cx might give you a clue -- at least the site that was under that domain a few years ago. 

It's for sale if you have $500000 to spare...

[cloches_de_geneve]

I wonder what that guy is like in bed!!!

Brutal and inaccurate is my best guess.

[mcgillcomposer]

Haha...I imagine some people could get off on the brutal aspect...not so sure about the inaccurate part though. You'd have to be pretty kinky to enjoy that!

[opus10no2]

Okay.  For the very last time.  (Even my patience has its limits.) 

OPUS:  This is a perfect example of your adolescent artistic aethestic.  "Extremism" is not a virtue.  It's an example of excess.  But emotional adolescents like you perceive extremism as the pinnacle of artistic achievement.  The ancient Greek philosophers discovered the principle of the "golden mean" well before you were born.  As a metaphor, it points in the direction of an aesthetic whose gravitational weight hovers around that which is not exreme.  Why?  Well, because life and art, for true adults, is about the gray areas, not about black and white.  There are no absolutes in a universe that is characerized by ceaseless change.  Therefore, we must be pragmatic.  Nothing, ultimately, is "black or white."

Your adulation of this embarrassing display of adolescent exhibitionism is typical of your critical  responses to music.  This performance -- even if refined by an improved technical approach -- would be crude and childish, by any mature musician's standard.

Was it Wordsworth ( or Coleridege) who said that poetry is emotion recollected in tranquility?  No matter, the point is that unrestrained emotionalism is not high art, it's simply the absence of discipline that renders art memorable.  Without discipline, it's only narcissism. 

This crude "Orage" that you admire is a perfect example of performance narcissism.  And if you find this performance to be significant, then you have a real problem.  Fix it, please.  Your defense of trash is growing tedious.   

*cough*pussy*cough*

[debussy symbolism]

In defense of "Opus," despite the fact that he replied to a seemingly decisive inquiry about his tastes with a non-existent invective, for reasons perhaps known to him, "Opus" does have the right to exercise whatever judgement he feels necessary towards a recording and isn't obligated to being oppressed by others who hold another view of things. I am not talking about connate predilections here towards any arts, I am talking about the sense of understanding and appreciation of other's likes. If "Opus" feels a certain way about something and is confident enough about displaying his reason for pursuing those things, it isn't really fair that others should put him down due to the fact that they see his beliefs as inferior. Withou excess, there is no moderation; yet there is no excess without moderation and both are expression of arts, as being proven in the video above, and statements by "Opus."

[opus10no2]

"Extremism" is not a virtue.  It's an example of excess. 

Actually, I see some of what you're saying, but the thing about this is that we are discussing a performance, the notes themselves are filled with variety.

I agree it isn't a perfect performance, but I adore extremism....this is not to say I do not value the artistic spectrum of temperaments, I just like to see the ROOF RAISED.

I like to see the upper limit pushed, and that is what this performance does!

For all his faults, occasionally doing a spiderman and *sticking* to the very roof he pushed up, the fact he creates this sonority at all makes this performance deserving of merit.

[invictious]

I wonder what that guy is like in bed!!!

Talk about foreplay..

[moi_not_toi]

YUK!
Both those videos are absolutely appalling!
I mean, I'm what: 15? (I stopped keeping track at 10, I was really happy I had 2 digits )
And still, those disgusting displays of pseudo-LangLangism are enough to make me want to vomit.
It IS that bad.
First Video: what??? Who abuses a piano like that? You make love to a piano, and it's not a masochist. So no BDSM FOR HIM!

Second video: Is it just me or does this guy look like he's about to throw up all over the strings?

It's horrifying! Why are modern pianists thinking that the more vile you are onstage, the more connection you get with the proletariat groundlings? You don't! You just offend them by making them wish those tickets weren't so expensive!

[opus10no2]

But the thing is, pussies like you are making the classical world die 

[invictious]

That's what I prefer recordings over videos, unless I am watching technique. Why can't pianists just get on with the music without having 'faces during orgasm'?
They are horribly distracting!

[opus10no2]

Close your eyes, many find the gestures of the pianist to be either -

Intrinsically connected with their musical expression, forming a 'ballet'-like dance for the music.

Or just plain comedic genius.

[pita bread]

Close your eyes, many find the gestures of the pianist to be either -

Intrinsically connected with their musical expression, forming a 'ballet'-like dance for the music.

Or just plain comedic genius.

ahahahaha, concurred for once.

[moi_not_toi]

But the thing is, pussies like you are making the classical world die 

Yes, let's show how culturally advanced we are, why don't we?

No, it's people like me that save the world from pseudo-Guitar-smashing piano recitals.

[opus10no2]

It's just sad that most people think pianists are pussies.

Sad perhaps because I am an exception to the norm?

[gerry]

It's no wonder Liszt needed a Bosey - everything else fell to bits in his hands.

[jlh]

It's no wonder Liszt needed a Bosey - everything else fell to bits in his hands.

Liszt normally performed with at least two pianos on stage -- not because he would play with other pianists, but because he would frequently break them during the concert! 

Having an extra piano on stage allowed the show to go on no matter what...

[invictious]

Who pays for the broken pianos? Surely no one would have been stupid enough to keep paying?
Oh yay, I can do even more bashing the piano on my Bartok for exam!


Wooooo.
Fun.

[arensky]

"Orage" is in many ways on the right track, the guy has the right instincts and his conception is bold (to say the least). Unfortunately it's excessive and inartistic, there is no drama in his attack, it is merely violent, with no contrast or pacing. He attempts some contrast, but it's handled badly and seems like he is doing it merely to rest his hands. His technique is not lacking, but it is completely uncontrolled.

With some training he could be a brilliant artist but I suspect he is not teachable.

I expect he will seriously injure his hands at the piano, if he hasn't already.

[jlh]

"Orage" is in many ways on the right track, the guy has the right instincts and his conception is bold (to say the least). Unfortunately it's excessive and inartistic, there is no drama in his attack, it is merely violent, with no contrast or pacing. He attempts some contrast, but it's handled badly and seems like he is doing it merely to rest his hands. His technique is not lacking, but it is completely uncontrolled.

With some training he could be a brilliant artist but I suspect he is not teachable.

I expect he will seriously injure his hands at the piano, if he hasn't already.

I suspect you speak for the majority. 

[m]

I actually thought it was a joke... but it does not seem so... it is just way too stupid to be a joke.

Never seen anything more offensive, tastless, and unartistic.
No wonder Opus likes it.

[invictious]

*Claps for marik*

Well, he sure made an 'orage' out there.

[opus10no2]

I thought his tone was bold and unique, for the simple fact I haven't heard an orage like this, I find it worthy!

Marik can be Beethoven op13.

[jlh]

I thought his tone was bold and unique, for the simple fact I haven't heard an orage like this, I find it worthy!

Bold, unique, and you've never heard an orage like this... that probably should tell you at least one thing.  If you can't figure it out, just trust us that those characteristics do not make a performance 'worthy' on their own merits. 

I can't believe you actually like this performance!  I mean, his LH chords are not chords at all -- in fact many times he's just slapping the piano with an open palm. 

[opus10no2]

Well, it's OK if he improves the composition.

LIke Beus' performance of the Barber sonata.

Anyway, don't you people realise that extreme metal is popular?

This is music with 'excess' in performance, and made interesting by shifting rhythms.

The volume is kept high, the fury kept going, but the feeling is maintained by contrasting rhythmic sections.

[jlh]

Well, it's OK if he improves the composition.

LIke Beus' performance of the Barber sonata.

Anyway, don't you people realise that extreme metal is popular?

This is music with 'excess' in performance, and made interesting by shifting rhythms.

The volume is kept high, the fury kept going, but the feeling is maintained by contrasting rhythmic sections.

   You ACTUALLY believe he "improved" the composition through wanton banging?!!

Metal is different than other genres.  Liszt is not metal. 

[opus10no2]

The same principles apply.

And yes, I believe some furious pieces can be improved by adding thicker chords and dissonances.

[moi_not_toi]

yes, that does work, but it CHANGES the piece and is no longer what you started out with.
Although not COMPLETELY different, it still isn't the same piece.

The sheets are absolute.
Changes in feeling are only poetic license, but ADDING, as you said above, IS adding, and isn't poetic license.

[opus10no2]

Yes, and while I often enjoy it, it's subjective and many people evidently don't.

The problem is, where does one draw the line, when does it become a transcription?

I'm not offended by any performance, the way some people talk about more personal performances it's like the piece will never ever be played again.

As long as there are still people playing it in the 'proper' way, others should feel free to provide an alternative.

[gerry]

Before viewing this video, I always took issue with the relegation of the piano to the percussion family - now I see why!  I would certainly hope that the 'demonic" aspect of Lizst could be conveyed with more composure and at least a semblance of sanity. I think the somewhat confused audience response spoke volumes (after he pulled the bad boy rapid exit)  - not the jumping to the feet, bravos that he probably expected but rather I sensed a sort of mixed "what just happened?" or "was that for real?". In addition, the concert venue looked like one of those small church types so it must have been even a more excruciating experience than the video indicated. If this pianist/percussionist stays mired in this type of interpretation, he will remain in a small niche with others like him but I doubt if he will take a seat among the greats. In the end, he may have sold himself as an egotistic performer to some in his audience (read sewing circle) but I don't think he sold Lizst. (there could be an interesting forum topic here - the importance of mannerisms and just how far one can go before it's all about you and not the music). In any case, I would hope that his promotional materials contain a warning to potential audience - any ideas on how to word this?

[invictious]

Personally as long as it feels good and doesn't really alter the mood (except dramatize it) then I think adding a few notes, altering the rhythms SLIGHTLY here and there is fine.

There obviously is a different between banging the piano, and hitting it fffffff. Either way, the tone produce will still be the same assuming the same force is used. Remember, we only have control over the velocity at which the hammer strikes the strings. In other words, all we have is dynamics. There are many other things we can control too, pedaling, speed etc

How this man here delivers it though..is plainly barbaric.

[arensky]

"Orageman" has a considerable discography of music minus one recordings of concerti, and has posted very good performances of Chasse Neige and the fourth mvt. of the Balakirev Sonata on Youtube(look at the other vids the user posted).

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=neill+eisenstein&btnG=Search


Which makes this assault of a performance a mystery to me. This guy was either having a REALLY bad day, or was drunk. Any other theories? 

Perhaps he will enlighten us if he has found this thread. Maybe Marik's first reaction ("is this a joke") was correct...

Tim Hoffman's psychotic twin? 

[olga_janina]

As long as there are still people playing it in the 'proper' way, others should feel free to provide an alternative.

I'd prefer it if they got the notes right.

[rallestar]

Okay.  For the very last time.  (Even my patience has its limits.) 

OPUS:  This is a perfect example of your adolescent artistic aethestic.  "Extremism" is not a virtue.  It's an example of excess.  But emotional adolescents like you perceive extremism as the pinnacle of artistic achievement.  The ancient Greek philosophers discovered the principle of the "golden mean" well before you were born.  As a metaphor, it points in the direction of an aesthetic whose gravitational weight hovers around that which is not exreme.  Why?  Well, because life and art, for true adults, is about the gray areas, not about black and white.  There are no absolutes in a universe that is characerized by ceaseless change.  Therefore, we must be pragmatic.  Nothing, ultimately, is "black or white."

Your adulation of this embarrassing display of adolescent exhibitionism is typical of your critical  responses to music.  This performance -- even if refined by an improved technical approach -- would be crude and childish, by any mature musician's standard.

Was it Wordsworth ( or Coleridege) who said that poetry is emotion recollected in tranquility?  No matter, the point is that unrestrained emotionalism is not high art, it's simply the absence of discipline that renders art memorable.  Without discipline, it's only narcissism. 

This crude "Orage" that you admire is a perfect example of performance narcissism.  And if you find this performance to be significant, then you have a real problem.  Fix it, please.  Your defense of trash is growing tedious.   

This is one of the best posts I've read here. Thank you.