The secret of the great masters

[liszt-essence]

Lately I've been reading some spiritual literature, that confirmed some thoughts I already had myself.

It's about the following;

I've always thought that anything related to the cosmos, and other complex material such as physics, rocketscience, spacefrontiering etc is material that is derived from 'the other side'.

A genius like Einstein for example, couldn't have come up with the relativity theory if he hadn't 'received' it from the other side. Now I'm not saying he was a medium. Many receive their information in an unconscious manner. This usually happens when they are asleep, and go into 'astral projection' (leaving the body) Many, most, are not aware when they do this. They then get 'exlained' the things regarding the thing they are studying from those who are on the other side. They take this information into their unconscious mind and when they awake they will during the day they may find find that ideas somehow enter their imagination/attention/conciousmind etc. (The whole concept of atomic energy was transfered like this for example)

Now I believe that great masters like bach, beethoven, chopin, liszt, ravel, etc. have derived many of their material in a similair matter.

First of all, when I create music, I get into some sort of creational flow so to say. It's something I tap into and the music comes to me.

Now these masters, that wrote such complex and beautiful music, in my opinion couldn't have done this merely on their own. I believe that in many cases they derived much of what they created from this universal flow. I see them as a sort of channel, for the music to come through. It's about opening yourself up to this. I don't think that any of the great masters actually knew that the music was given to them. (but perhaps they did) Well, either they tapped into the flow itself or were assisted by those on the other side. I think if one becomes aware of where the music is actually derived from, where it exists and that we can open ourselves up to this flow. We can become great masters ourselves too.

[rallestar]

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

It's simply an idiotic idea - There is no way you can make any point to prove it, since by your own admission, it's just gonna happen and we won't know. Sounds like it might just be you who happens to be wrong.

Where does this divide too? I know I don't get any musical inspiration, since I don't write. What about crappy composers? Or just not-so-great? What about Dvorak or other composers not in the top tier? Why did almost all great composers write works that are generally accepted to be crappy? (And those who didn't essentially just censured themselves).

Music is a human achievement and ways of expression. This spiritual bullshit, I can't believe anyone could really believe stuff like that.

Einstein worked his whole life to develop hist theories. He was a true master of his field, but he had to work for it, just like everyone else has had to work for their success.

[pianowolfi]

I live with the "other side". Daily and nightly. It's not about getting unconscious influences. It's about making them conscious. To be in contact with other dimensions doesn't belittle human achievements. Far from it, the more "humanly" I think and play and talk, the better it is and the better gets the "communication" with the "other side". Actually it is even NOT the "other" side it's a part of the world. Look at the stars. They are so much in a harmonic order, they ARE the "other side" already. Or a Beethoven sonata. There are no two sides. There is only one world. No I haven't smoked anything

[rallestar]

Oh well - Whatever works for people as a ways to make their music. The belief is the important thing I guess, not the reality.

[opus10no2]

Music is created by musicians in the same way that sequences of words are created every day by eveyone.

[pianowolfi]

Oh well - Whatever works for people as a ways to make their music. The belief is the important thing I guess, not the reality.

It depends of what you define as reality. Beauty is reality to me. Harmony is too. There is something like a "Divine Harmony" (as a very appreciated friend of mine calls it) in the world. Thoughts are a reality, dreams are, feelings, inspirations. It's about putting everything into the right context.

[liszt-essence]

I live with the "other side". Daily and nightly. It's not about getting unconscious influences. It's about making them conscious. To be in contact with other dimensions doesn't belittle human achievements. Far from it, the more "humanly" I think and play and talk, the better it is and the better gets the "communication" with the "other side". Actually it is even NOT the "other" side it's a part of the world. Look at the stars. They are so much in a harmonic order, they ARE the "other side" already. Or a Beethoven sonata. There are no two sides. There is only one world. No I haven't smoked anything

It's indeed a common misperception that this 'spiritual aid' belittles human achievements. If only we could learn that greatness is not a product of our ego but that it's the beauty of god. We all knew this, when we were not in this body. And many remembered this when they were still very young, when they were still in contact with the 'other' world. (Which is indeed, like pianowolf said, part of this world but due to the history of mankind we have totaly secluded ourselves from the rest of the cosmos) It's up to us, to remember who we are. All is destined, but it's also destined that you will make this choise one day. The choise to wake up and see who you really are.

If one would see, they would see that in the end everything comes from god, is god and will return to god. It's our ego that wants to think it's something we did on our own, so that we can take the credit for it. But it is not so. The music is not 'yours', and it never will be.

[rallestar]

It's indeed a common misperception that this 'spiritual aid' belittles human achievements. If only we could learn that greatness is not a product of our ego but that it's the beauty of god. We all knew this, when we were not in this body. And many remembered this when they were still very young, when they were still in contact with the 'other' world. (Which is indeed, like pianowolf said, part of this world but due to the history of mankind we have totaly secluded ourselves from the rest of the cosmos) It's up to us, to remember who we are. All is destined, but it's also destined that you will make this choise one day. The choise to wake up and see who you really are.

If one would see, they would see that in the end everything comes from god, is god and will return to god. It's our ego that wants to think it's something we did on our own, so that we can take the credit for it. But it is not so. The music is not 'yours', and it never will be.

This is in essence a religious debate, and debating belief in God - And in how much God affects our lives - is pointless, so I will state again, that whatever works best is right. As long as the music is great, I won't be guessing about whatever inspiration the composers have had. It matters little, to me.

[counterpoint]

Are we now going back to the times before the Enlightenment?

[liszt-essence]

I am not a religious man.

In my opinion, religion is what keeps us from god (although in some cases, people can filter out the nonsense and find some truth in religion)

Religion, something that was once pure is now distorted and false. Once, it was a  testimony of the life of an enlightened person, a master. Then the stories were altered through time, but more importantly the power elites altered the religion so that it inspired fear into the hearts of people. They could not stop the people from believing in their own religion, so they changed it. They used it as device of control. Control through fear.

Whenever I speak of god, know that it is not thát god I speak of. It is something different alltogether. 

Do not discard this topic because you read the word god in it. I hope I made myself clear that this is not a religous debate. This is a debate about truth, and where we can find it. Because if we see the truth a little more clearer, everything becomes more clearer. Do you think the great masters in music are so different from other great masters. No, they too bear testimony to the greatness of god.
.

[ramseytheii]

This could go over well in 'Anything but piano.'

Walter Ramsey

[pita bread]

Effffff! How did the religious debate escape the "anything but piano" section?

[rallestar]

I am not a religious man.

In my opinion, religion is what keeps us from god (although in some cases, people can filter out the nonsense and find some truth in religion)

Religion, something that was once pure is now distorted and false. Once, it was a  testimony of the life of an enlightened person, a master. Then the stories were altered through time, but more importantly the power elites altered the religion so that it inspired fear into the hearts of people. They could not stop the people from believing in their own religion, so they changed it. They used it as device of control. Control through fear.

Whenever I speak of god, know that it is not thát god I speak of. It is something different alltogether. 

Do not discard this topic because you read the word god in it. I hope I made myself clear that this is not a religous debate. This is a debate about truth, and where we can find it. Because if we see the truth a little more clearer, everything becomes more clearer. Do you think the great masters in music are so different from other great masters. No, they too bear testimony to the greatness of god.
.

One important distinction to make in any debate about religion is the distinction between the institution of the church and the religion - While the church often has been sick for power, the religion itself can still be pure. And I do believe that after the secularisation of western countries, the power of the church itself is gone. Essentially I agree that the church has often abused religion in order to gain power for itself - But I don't see how it relates here, really.

[amelialw]

I don't think there's any secret and I think i've asked my teacher this before when I 1st started under her or she mentioned it to me that there's none.

Just constantly inspire/motivate yourself by going for concerts or listening to music and when you practise you have to get into it, not just practise and you have to want to excel.

[opus10no2]

Do talented people deserve the talent they are 'blessed' with? 

[ultraviolet]

If that were the case, opus, you wouldn't even know which end of the piano to sit at.   

[amelialw]

Do talented people deserve the talent they are 'blessed' with?

About half do about half don't.

[debussy symbolism]

Lately I've been reading some spiritual literature, that confirmed some thoughts I already had myself.

It's about the following;

I've always thought that anything related to the cosmos, and other complex material such as physics, rocketscience, spacefrontiering etc is material that is derived from 'the other side'.

A genius like Einstein for example, couldn't have come up with the relativity theory if he hadn't 'received' it from the other side. Now I'm not saying he was a medium. Many receive their information in an unconscious manner. This usually happens when they are asleep, and go into 'astral projection' (leaving the body) Many, most, are not aware when they do this. They then get 'exlained' the things regarding the thing they are studying from those who are on the other side. They take this information into their unconscious mind and when they awake they will during the day they may find find that ideas somehow enter their imagination/attention/conciousmind etc. (The whole concept of atomic energy was transfered like this for example)

Now I believe that great masters like bach, beethoven, chopin, liszt, ravel, etc. have derived many of their material in a similair matter.

First of all, when I create music, I get into some sort of creational flow so to say. It's something I tap into and the music comes to me.

Now these masters, that wrote such complex and beautiful music, in my opinion couldn't have done this merely on their own. I believe that in many cases they derived much of what they created from this universal flow. I see them as a sort of channel, for the music to come through. It's about opening yourself up to this. I don't think that any of the great masters actually knew that the music was given to them. (but perhaps they did) Well, either they tapped into the flow itself or were assisted by those on the other side. I think if one becomes aware of where the music is actually derived from, where it exists and that we can open ourselves up to this flow. We can become great masters ourselves too.

Greetings

First of all, if you are going to make claims about anything that isn't a researched field, you are going to have to come up with either scientific/logical reasoning and or empirical evidence. First of all, reading about spiritual material isn't going to establish anything. Those are just theories claimed by people, but as far as reasoning is concerned, I doubt you could give me much scientific evidence concerning anything that revolves around the word "divine" and "spiritual". (I am not saying that those two concepts don't exist)

To begin, we must first analyze "the other side." Okay, you claim that most if not all logical creations and concepts such as physics comes from that side. Looking at it from a reasonable perspective, there is no reason to believe that there is another side, simply because we haven't come across it, and furthermore, it is absurd to think of any logical creation as being somehow issued from those same premises, again, based on the notion that those advanced concepts come from us humans, who are invariably on "this side."

Saying that the "theory of relativity" came from the "other side" would mean that simple arithmetics also came from that side, given that both the theory of relativity and arithmatics are relatively complex reasons of physics. Is there a boundary of complexity, where exeedingly complex material is only bound to the other side? Following logic, that doesn't make sense. Following your logic, simple arithmetics and ultimately 2 plus 2 also came from the other side. Einstein came up with the theories because his brain allowed him to. He may have used intellect, creativity, and other methods of deriving conclusion that is unnacessible to most humans due to brain difference, but that doesn't connote that mysterious "other side" simply because it is more likely that Einstein arrived at his conclusions due to intellect that is apparent, rather than spiritual forces, which aren't apparent.

Again, you will have to supply at least empirical evidence that shows that some participants do in fact claim that not only does their conciousness leaves the body, but somehow interacts with spiritual beings that explain him concepts. The unconscious mind is a powerful tool. During sleep, it processes information acquired during the day. That is a scientific statement. It might possibly explain the divine confrontation you speak of.

Again, if you are going to mention the universal flows, you will first have to specify its existence. You have no way to prove that divine content suddenly sips into a man while he is asleep. It is just scientifically unlikely. Furthermore, I don't think they call those great men "geniuses" for nothing.

[jakev2.0]

Einstein was a clever chap.

[themockingbird]

Lately I've been reading some spiritual literature, that confirmed some thoughts I already had myself.

It's about the following;

I've always thought that anything related to the cosmos, and other complex material such as physics, rocketscience, spacefrontiering etc is material that is derived from 'the other side'.

A genius like Einstein for example, couldn't have come up with the relativity theory if he hadn't 'received' it from the other side. Now I'm not saying he was a medium. Many receive their information in an unconscious manner. This usually happens when they are asleep, and go into 'astral projection' (leaving the body) Many, most, are not aware when they do this. They then get 'exlained' the things regarding the thing they are studying from those who are on the other side. They take this information into their unconscious mind and when they awake they will during the day they may find find that ideas somehow enter their imagination/attention/conciousmind etc. (The whole concept of atomic energy was transfered like this for example)

Now I believe that great masters like bach, beethoven, chopin, liszt, ravel, etc. have derived many of their material in a similair matter.

First of all, when I create music, I get into some sort of creational flow so to say. It's something I tap into and the music comes to me.

Now these masters, that wrote such complex and beautiful music, in my opinion couldn't have done this merely on their own. I believe that in many cases they derived much of what they created from this universal flow. I see them as a sort of channel, for the music to come through. It's about opening yourself up to this. I don't think that any of the great masters actually knew that the music was given to them. (but perhaps they did) Well, either they tapped into the flow itself or were assisted by those on the other side. I think if one becomes aware of where the music is actually derived from, where it exists and that we can open ourselves up to this flow. We can become great masters ourselves too.

Like many others here, I think you are underestimating the power of people's intellect and creativity.

[minstrel]

For a very interesting discussion of a spiritual perspective on the source of inspiration and creativity as it regards composition, read this book, if you haven't already.

https://www.amazon.com/Talks-Great-Composers-Arthur-Abell/dp/0806515651

I will give you a little spoiler, that Brahms directly credits his inspiration as being received from a divine source.

This view has been shared by what seems to be a great many of artists through the centuries.  Does this prove that supernatural forces exist? Of course not. Might the divine be simply the product of a differently wired, or different perceiving brain? Perhaps. But the topic shouldn't be dismissed lightly, especially when you hear the testimony of those that are actually "in the know".

[ramseytheii]

For a very interesting discussion of a spiritual perspective on the source of inspiration and creativity as it regards composition, read this book, if you haven't already.

https://www.amazon.com/Talks-Great-Composers-Arthur-Abell/dp/0806515651

I will give you a little spoiler, that Brahms directly credits his inspiration as being received from a divine source.

This view has been shared by what seems to be a great many of artists through the centuries.  Does this prove that supernatural forces exist? Of course not. Might the divine be simply the product of a differently wired, or different perceiving brain? Perhaps. But the topic shouldn't be dismissed lightly, especially when you hear the testimony of those that are actually "in the know".

I'm reminded of the words of Marian Anderson, who said, "The reason you gain technique is so that on the nights when you don't sound like a god, at least you sound pretty good." 

There's always been an element of the divine, the mystical, the spiritually-received in music-making, be it composition or performance.  If a musician believes that he or she has received inspiration from a divine source, more power to them. 

But the younger, inexperienced musicians should be educated strongly in tangible, achievable things, things that give a general sense of confidence, technique that can come through without fail, knowledge of musical science (in the words of Beethoven) that is without reproach.  In the above words, Marian Anderson recognizes this.

Too often we see students dependent on elusive inspiration, who churn out recital after recital of sloppy junk, only to play one movement well - and often very well, at that.  But that's not enough, and the spiritual should always be allowed to be joined with the earthly - with the tangible, identifiable, reliable things that give true technique and musicianship.

Walter Ramsey

[cmg]

I live with the "other side". Daily and nightly. It's not about getting unconscious influences. It's about making them conscious. To be in contact with other dimensions doesn't belittle human achievements. Far from it, the more "humanly" I think and play and talk, the better it is and the better gets the "communication" with the "other side". Actually it is even NOT the "other" side it's a part of the world. Look at the stars. They are so much in a harmonic order, they ARE the "other side" already. Or a Beethoven sonata. There are no two sides. There is only one world. No I haven't smoked anything

Bravo, pianowolfi!  Do you know George Lloyd's "Symphony No. 11"?  It's all there -- everything you wrote -- and in five glorious movements.

[soliloquy]

Yeah, you guys are probably right.


Now, let's do some astral charts drawn into the earth with our moon crystals while prancing around naked with waist-long hair and tattoos that say "love child" in a field of dandelions listening to King Crimson while simultaneously tripping on acid and having a love orgy next to a tye-dyed VW bus that runs on ethanol fuel to display our love to the sun goddess, Reya, and mother earth, Gaea, as we hope they will show us the guiding light that will allow us to transcend to total enlightenment

[pianowolfi]

Ah it was Reya? hmmmmm interesting . I like the VW bus, also. Tripping on acid sounds quite painful though.

[minstrel]

Yeah, you guys are probably right.


Now, let's do some astral charts drawn into the earth with our moon crystals while prancing around naked with waist-long hair and tattoos that say "love child" in a field of dandelions listening to King Crimson while simultaneously tripping on acid and having a love orgy next to a tye-dyed VW bus that runs on ethanol fuel to display our love to the sun goddess, Reya, and mother earth, Gaea, as we hope they will show us the guiding light that will allow us to transcend to total enlightenment

Don't know if this is partially in response to me, but I'm just telling you what Brahms, and Beethoven as well, had to say on the matter.  I guess it doesn't jive with your worldview, and I'm not particularly religious myself, but both these 2 composers both thought their works came from God.

It is interesting how close-minded we have become towards anything that doesn't fit out scientific/logical mode of thinking. Especially when there are GIANT gaps in our scientific understanding of the world..though this is another discussion..

[ramseytheii]

Don't know if this is partially in response to me, but I'm just telling you what Brahms, and Beethoven as well, had to say on the matter.  I guess it doesn't jive with your worldview, and I'm not particularly religious myself, but both these 2 composers both thought their works came from God.

It is interesting how close-minded we have become towards anything that doesn't fit out scientific/logical mode of thinking. Especially when there are GIANT gaps in our scientific understanding of the world..though this is another discussion..

Well, I think the person you quoted took to a logical extreme something which can be pretty harmful towards interpretation skills.  A person who focusses all their energy on being a divine antennae is typically a person who presents smudgy, over-pedalled, bizarre interpretations lacking in solid technique and solid thought.  Then afterwards they ask if you heard this or that part of their interpretation, and then they say what it is supposed to signify, and you just end up thinking, "Huh?"  I always refer to Arthur Toscanini, who when asked if the opening motif of Beethoven's fifth was fate knocking at a door, responded, "No, it is allegro con brio."

Walter Ramsey

[gerry]

I also don't buy the "other side" philosophy. I believe that unless there's a serious mental impairement, most people are born with the same potential but for reasons immeasurably complex some evolve into romantics with little technique, some into fearsome technicians with little romance, and some into beautiful successful combinations of the two; and many more evolve into those who are blind to the arts and those who appreciate and are deeply moved by art.

BTW bringing the analogy of Einstein and his theories into this argument really got me thinking. My first instinct was to dismiss this premise as apples and oranges, science and art, but then I wondered. Not being a mathemetician I look at a blackboards filled with row upon row of indecipherable symbols that actually express a complex theory and I wonder if a mathematician gazing upon this sees a work of art--do those symbols dance in their brains like musical notes do to us? Do they see their own version of an exposition, development, and recapitulation, a theme and variations, allegros, lentos, fortes and pianissimos? I'd like to think they do--that all of it appeals to a sense I don't possess. I apologize if this sounds a bit wierd but it's late and I've had a few glasses of wine.

[pianowolfi]

I apologize if this sounds a bit wierd but it's late and I've had a few glasses of wine.

hee hee I like these too

"After a 1929 concert in Berlin, Albert Einstein went backstage, kissed the 13-year-old prodigy Yehudi Menuhin and said, "Today Yehudi, you have once again proved to me that there is a God in heaven," the New York Times reported."

Quoted from

https://www.answers.com/topic/yehudi-menuhin?cat=entertainment

[m]

hee hee I like these too

"After a 1929 concert in Berlin, Albert Einstein went backstage, kissed the 13-year-old prodigy Yehudi Menuhin and said, "Today Yehudi, you have once again proved to me that there is a God in heaven," the New York Times reported."

Quoted from

https://www.answers.com/topic/yehudi-menuhin?cat=entertainment

To bad, Yehudi Menuhin stopped right there, ever since.

[pianistimo]

i don't think you have to get caught up in 'did i play with enough technique?'  or 'did i play with enough musicality?'  how about - 'did i play with enough love?'  love is transcendental.

btw, i don't consider myself a master - but i 'hear love' and recognize it in great masters.

[pianowolfi]

To bad, Yehudi Menuhin stopped right there, ever since.

I'm not sure what you mean

[term]

I think if one becomes aware of where the music is actually derived from, where it exists and that we can open ourselves up to this flow. We can become great masters ourselves too.

Well i think, you become a master simply by practising whatever you love to do.
But if your approach is best for you...so be it.
Be aware of the fact that it is not important what you believe as long as you really believe, because the result is what matters, and you may reach your goal even if your theory is "wrong".

[soliloquy]

Don't know if this is partially in response to me

I do not know who you are.

[liszt-essence]

Be aware of the fact that it is not important what you believe as long as you really believe, because the result is what matters, and you may reach your goal even if your theory is "wrong".

Yes, Wise words.