Understanding Béla Bartók

[soulmach]

Hello.  On recordings, I have listened to Zoltán Kocsis play Bartók to near perfection, I have listened to Bartók's piano concerto's, and I have listened to recordings of Bartók himself playing Mikrokosmos on NPR.  Unfortunately, I am finding it difficult to thoroughly appreciate his music.  When I listen to Mozart, Debussy, Chopin etc. etc. I really have a feeling for their music, and their music makes perfect sense to me.  However, Bartók produces chords that are bangy, dissonant, and always unpredictable to my ears.  Sometimes his music begins to produce a beautiful melody, and at the most inopportune time, he interrupts the melody with all those bangy chords.  When that happens I am in a whirlwind of confusion, stuck trying to appreciate the music.  I have never had this much difficulty appreciating a composers work, especially one who is considered by many to be one of the greatest composers of the 20th century.  I have no doubt that Béla Bartók's music is PHENOMENAL, and I want to understand it.  I am very interested in Hungarian, Romanian, Bulgarian and other cultures in that area of the world.  I would also like to understand and fluidly play that area's musical traditions.

Can someone please help to enlighten me about the spirit of Bartók's music?  Do you know of any online places to study Bartók, or any recommended books about Bartók?

[counterpoint]

Unfortunately, I am finding it difficult to thoroughly appreciate his music.  When I listen to Mozart, Debussy, Chopin etc. etc. I really have a feeling for their music, and their music makes perfect sense to me.  However, Bartók produces chords that are bangy, dissonant, and always unpredictable to my ears.  Sometimes his music begins to produce a beautiful melody, and at the most inopportune time, he interrupts the melody with all those bangy chords. 

You have described the characteristics of Bartok's music very well! That's how he composed his music. Btw. it's not so different from Beethoven's intentions.

I think you understand Bartok very good. Perhaps the only "problem" you have with Bartok is: you don't like this sort of music as much as the music of Mozart, Chopin, Debussy... 

[Kassaa]

You should try to play his music, that raises your bond with the music and makes you love it more, I hope. Otherwise just be patient, music grows on you in time .

[cmg]

You should try to play his music, that raises your bond with the music and makes you love it more, I hope. Otherwise just be patient, music grows on you in time .

Great advice.  Also, focus on the more accessible Bartok.  Especially late Bartok.  The Third piano concerto is actually quite ethereal.  The nocturnal sounds of the second movement, particularly with "the insects" buzzing and chirping, is absolutely magical.  The concerto's total effect, for me, is almost the same as Beethoven's Fourth concerto.

And the Concerto for Orchestra.  What a masterpiece.  Also, the Concerto for 2 pianos, percussion and orchestra.

A great deal of the piano music is meant for teaching purposes.  I don't think all of it is of the same high inspiration, so you have to pick and choose.

[franzliszt2]

I HATE Bartok and think he is the worst composer EVER!! I culd write an essay on my hatred for Bartok. I doubt I'll ever like him. Bad music!! And I am not ignorant to his music, I know all of it and have played (by force) a lot of it   

[pianistimo]

the suite opus 14 - i found way more interesting than some of kabalevsky's stuff.  although, you have to 'get into the mode' - by listening to some hungarian folk tunes.  they are not based on the western tonal system - but rather modes.  so you have a sort of east meets west with bartok.  he puts all this into a tonal system in writing - but it's not truly tonal.

bartok was amazing in that he sought to record and document folk tunes before they died out.  much like people collect stories from ethnic peoples.  if it wasn't for him and kodaly - we wouldn't have the interesting tunes that come directly from certain places over there in hungary and wheverever else he travelled.

kodaly set this system into progressive studies for young children.

here's an analysis of the suite opus 14:
https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~matt/301b/Bartok-Suite-Opus14.pdf

part of the problem, imo, is the unique nature of his music and lack of exposure we have had to it.  if you grew up with gypsy violin music - it would be second nature.  and, his talent for exploiting rhythms and doing wild machinations. 

though, in the end, you'll have to find a pianist that doesn't bang it - and plays it lightly like a violinist would.  sfz's don't have to be bashy.

ps - i don't want to listen to bartok if i need solace.  it's more the kind of music that wakes you up and makes you want to dance.  and, you can get arrhythmia from it if you always try to match your heartbeat to your music.

[richard black]

Piano music is probably not the place to get started on Bartok. Orchestral stuff (Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste, Concerto for Orchestra etc.) chamber music (especially the sonata for solo violin), Duke Bluebeard's Castle, I would expect to be more immediately appealing to more people.

[invictious]

I'm playing all of his 6 Bulgarian Dances from Mikrokosmos No.6 for DipABRSM (unusual time signatures and bitonality galore).

Yes it is dissonant and heard to appreciate. It's just like other 20th century composers. How you say there are great melodies, then random bashing comes in, leaving you in a whirlwind of confusion and discombobulation is one of the main effects of Bartok's music. Just as atonality, giving you a sense of insecurity and unpredictability.

Bartok treats the piano as a percussion instrument, utilizing varying rhythms and accents to the fullest. HOWEVER, DO NOT PLAY THE PIANO LIKE A PERCUSSION INSTRUMENT. Your mindset has to think 'percussion', but your fingers have to think 'piano'.

I find his music very exciting. How it just makes your heart beat fast and almost in rhythm, ooh the first time I listened to his works seriously. The visceral thrill of listening and actually playing it cannot be reproduced. Perhaps playing Bartok gives me a lift from the heavy Classical Music or sophisticated Romantic Music.

Let's pull another example into this. Scriabin, particularly his late period, it IS dissonant, but I still love his works. His fifth sonata (not from late period) is personally in my opinion, one of the best piano works ever composed.

Last paragraph was off topic, but I just wanted to express my love for his fifth sonata.

[soulmach]

Wow great advice  everyone, thanks for your comments.  It was nice to hear from both sides.  I enjoyed hearing from people who have grown to appreciate Bartók's music.  I am starting to see hope in my future with Bartók after all.   I was beginning to doubt my ears, so it's also refreshing to know others have struggled with this.

You have described the characteristics of Bartok's music very well! That's how he composed his music. Btw. it's not so different from Beethoven's intentions.

I think you understand Bartok very good. Perhaps the only "problem" you have with Bartok is: you don't like this sort of music as much as the music of Mozart, Chopin, Debussy... 

Thank you I agree Beethoven has the same unpredictable feel in his music at times, but his music seems more cohesive (to my amateur ears) than does Bartók.  I adore Beethoven's music.  Also, it's possible you are right, I may simply just not prefer Bartók's style... I'll keep digging at it until I know for sure.

You should try to play his music, that raises your bond with the music and makes you love it more, I hope. Otherwise just be patient, music grows on you in time .

I will try that! I'm going to try Mikrokosmos No.97: Notturno, because it's one of my favorites from that series.  Maybe it will ease me into his style.  And I will surely be patient   Thank you. 

Great advice.  Also, focus on the more accessible Bartok.  Especially late Bartok.  The Third piano concerto is actually quite ethereal.  The nocturnal sounds of the second movement, particularly with "the insects" buzzing and chirping, is absolutely magical.  The concerto's total effect, for me, is almost the same as Beethoven's Fourth concerto.

And the Concerto for Orchestra.  What a masterpiece.  Also, the Concerto for 2 pianos, percussion and orchestra.

A great deal of the piano music is meant for teaching purposes.  I don't think all of it is of the same high inspiration, so you have to pick and choose.

Upon your advice, I just listened to his 3rd concerto.  The first movement still threw me into a loop a few times. The second movement, I agree with you, is fun to hear.  I probably would not have associated the shrill staccato strings with crickets, if you had not mentioned it. Nice observation!  Great imagery.  "Zany" is a word I could use to describe the third movement, but of course, I could be way off base with my review   I don't know if you have ever seen the classic children's movies, "Escape To/From Witch Mountain", but that is what I was instantly reminded of in the 3rd movement ! I would LOVE to hear this live and in person!  I feel like it would be a great experience, and would help me achieve my objective, which is to appreciate this music.

I HATE Bartok and think he is the worst composer EVER!! I culd write an essay on my hatred for Bartok. I doubt I'll ever like him. Bad music!! And I am not ignorant to his music, I know all of it and have played (by force) a lot of it   

Sounds like a tough experience!  I wouldn't like it either if I were forced into playing it.  It's tough enough understanding it on my own free will   I just have one thought: When I was in school I was forced to eat spinach and peas, and I hated it.  Five years later I was served spinach at a restaurant, and tasted it with my own free will, and it was excellent! Perhaps this could be the same with Bartók!  Thanks for sharing your point of view

...although, you have to 'get into the mode' - by listening to some hungarian folk tunes.  they are not based on the western tonal system - but rather modes.  so you have a sort of east meets west with bartok.  he puts all this into a tonal system in writing - but it's not truly tonal.

bartok was amazing in that he sought to record and document folk tunes before they died out.  much like people collect stories from ethnic peoples.  if it wasn't for him and kodaly - we wouldn't have the interesting tunes that come directly from certain places over there in hungary and wheverever else he travelled.

kodaly set this system into progressive studies for young children.

here's an analysis of the suite opus 14:
https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~matt/301b/Bartok-Suite-Opus14.pdf

part of the problem, imo, is the unique nature of his music and lack of exposure we have had to it.  if you grew up with gypsy violin music - it would be second nature.  and, his talent for exploiting rhythms and doing wild machinations. 

though, in the end, you'll have to find a pianist that doesn't bang it - and plays it lightly like a violinist would.  sfz's don't have to be bashy.

ps - i don't want to listen to bartok if i need solace.  it's more the kind of music that wakes you up and makes you want to dance.  and, you can get arrhythmia from it if you always try to match your heartbeat to your music.

I think you are very right about the lack of exposure being one of the main causes for my under-appreciation of his music.  Possibly if I had grown up Hungarian, instead of American, I would not be having this problem.   I've only had time to skim through the analysis you provided, but it looks very helpful.  I'm going to check out "modes" just for the cultural value of knowing. Your comment about arrhythmia had me laughing, but it's true!  I know exactly what you mean. Thanks!

Piano music is probably not the place to get started on Bartok. Orchestral stuff (Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste, Concerto for Orchestra etc.) chamber music (especially the sonata for solo violin), Duke Bluebeard's Castle, I would expect to be more immediately appealing to more people.

I'll check those out! Thanks !

I'm playing all of his 6 Bulgarian Dances from Mikrokosmos No.6 for DipABRSM (unusual time signatures and bitonality galore).

Yes it is dissonant and heard to appreciate. It's just like other 20th century composers. How you say there are great melodies, then random bashing comes in, leaving you in a whirlwind of confusion and discombobulation is one of the main effects of Bartok's music. Just as atonality, giving you a sense of insecurity and unpredictability.

Bartok treats the piano as a percussion instrument, utilizing varying rhythms and accents to the fullest. HOWEVER, DO NOT PLAY THE PIANO LIKE A PERCUSSION INSTRUMENT. Your mindset has to think 'percussion', but your fingers have to think 'piano'.

I find his music very exciting. How it just makes your heart beat fast and almost in rhythm, ooh the first time I listened to his works seriously. The visceral thrill of listening and actually playing it cannot be reproduced. Perhaps playing Bartok gives me a lift from the heavy Classical Music or sophisticated Romantic Music.

Let's pull another example into this. Scriabin, particularly his late period, it IS dissonant, but I still love his works. His fifth sonata (not from late period) is personally in my opinion, one of the best piano works ever composed.

Last paragraph was off topic, but I just wanted to express my love for his fifth sonata.

Great! I plan on playing his compositions, and I will see if things get clearer.  I think I am analyzing a little too much as I listen, but that is hard not to do when I am so accustomed to western music!  I also have very little experience with Scriabin, but I saw Horowitz' Moscow performance on YouTube, and it was a stunning composition (but now I can't remember the name of the composition).  We pianists have so much we want to do, but only 24 hours in a day!  Life stays interesting, thats for sure. I wish you the best on the DipABRSM. Thanks!

[hodi]

if you don't like it, why force yourself to like it??

[mephisto]

Sometimes one is unable to love a major composer, but one learns about good composition and interpretations and ends up loving the composer. Certainly that is a fantastic thing.

[franzliszt2]

I once got into trouble off my teacher for telling him that the only reason Bartok composed his Peasent songs was because he couldn't harmonise them properly and harmonised like a peasent with ni musical knowledge would.

I have returned to Bartok a lot, but don't get any satisfaction from the music at all. Contrasts for Violin piano and clarinet is cool. Thats his only decent piece in my opinion

[soliloquy]

I think if you are truly interested in understanding Bartok, you need to get in correspondence with Richard Kastle.  He's the only person IHO that truly understands the works of Bartok; many musicologists just pretend to understand the complex angularisms and together/apart octaves, but don't be fooled; they are faking it, particularly in the hardest part of music theory and history ever, the relationship of Bartok's music to Romanian and other European folk music.  You really should be asking a level 10 dungeon master pianist like Kastle.

[franzliszt2]

I think if you are truly interested in understanding Bartok, you need to get in correspondence with Richard Kastle.  He's the only person IHO that truly understands the works of Bartok; many musicologists just pretend to understand the complex angularisms and together/apart octaves, but don't be fooled; they are faking it, particularly in the hardest part of music theory and history ever, the relationship of Bartok's music to Romanian and other European folk music.  You really should be asking a level 10 dungeon master pianist like Kastle.

I'd rather form my own opinion on Bartok than submit to someone else. I studied Bartok a lot, with my teacher. who as a huge understanding, but ultimltly it does not appeal to my senses, I could write endless essays on Bartok if need be, but I just dislike the music. To me music is an art, and should stimulate my senses....Bartok doesn't. I was interested in him in a way... I never hate something without trying my hardest to understand. I doubt I'll even like his music. And if any musician can persuade me by a performance I will have huge respect for them! I know all of Bartoks compositions and have never been convinced...but maybe this is the people performing it?? I have played a lot of his piano music...but with an attitude of hatred? I dunno, God I hate being human!!

[soliloquy]

I'd rather form my own opinion on Bartok than submit to someone else. I studied Bartok a lot, with my teacher. who as a huge understanding, but ultimltly it does not appeal to my senses, I could write endless essays on Bartok if need be, but I just dislike the music. To me music is an art, and should stimulate my senses....Bartok doesn't. I was interested in him in a way... I never hate something without trying my hardest to understand. I doubt I'll even like his music. And if any musician can persuade me by a performance I will have huge respect for them! I know all of Bartoks compositions and have never been convinced...but maybe this is the people performing it?? I have played a lot of his piano music...but with an attitude of hatred? I dunno, God I hate being human!!

what.

the.

f.uck.

[pita bread]

I'd rather form my own opinion on Bartok than submit to someone else. I studied Bartok a lot, with my teacher. who as a huge understanding, but ultimltly it does not appeal to my senses, I could write endless essays on Bartok if need be, but I just dislike the music. To me music is an art, and should stimulate my senses....Bartok doesn't. I was interested in him in a way... I never hate something without trying my hardest to understand. I doubt I'll even like his music. And if any musician can persuade me by a performance I will have huge respect for them! I know all of Bartoks compositions and have never been convinced...but maybe this is the people performing it?? I have played a lot of his piano music...but with an attitude of hatred? I dunno, God I hate being human!!

Pretty much my sentiments exactly...

'cept I'll always have a soft spot for those Op. 18 Etudes 

[franzliszt2]

what.

the.

f.uck.

 

[soliloquy]

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,26524.0.html

[soulmach]

if you don't like it, why force yourself to like it??

I do not understand his music or his compositions. I'm not sure if I like Bartók's music (yet), but I want to have a full appreciation for him as a composer, and the truths of such music.  I am not forcing myself at all.  Learning the nuances of Bartók is an adventure that fits in well with all my other interests.

Sometimes one is unable to love a major composer, but one learns about good composition and interpretations and ends up loving the composer. Certainly that is a fantastic thing.

I agree.  You have nicely summed up my objective. Maybe one day I will wake up and look forward to listening to recordings of his piano works ... just maybe

I think if you are truly interested in understanding Bartok, you need to get in correspondence with Richard Kastle.  He's the only person IHO that truly understands the works of Bartok; many musicologists just pretend to understand the complex angularisms and together/apart octaves, but don't be fooled; they are faking it, particularly in the hardest part of music theory and history ever, the relationship of Bartok's music to Romanian and other European folk music.  You really should be asking a level 10 dungeon master pianist like Kastle.

Thanks for your advice.  I'll look him up.  I would love to hear from anyone who is known as an expert on Bartók's compositions, and on folk sound from the Hungarian area.  I always get second (and third) opinions, and it is nice to hear all sides of the story.  Richard Kastle doesn't sound like someone I can just call on the phone, but if you know him, please send him on over to this thread so he can join in.  I would love to hear his side of the story

I'd rather form my own opinion on Bartok than submit to someone else. I studied Bartok a lot, with my teacher. who as a huge understanding, but ultimltly it does not appeal to my senses, I could write endless essays on Bartok if need be, but I just dislike the music. To me music is an art, and should stimulate my senses....Bartok doesn't. I was interested in him in a way... I never hate something without trying my hardest to understand. I doubt I'll even like his music. And if any musician can persuade me by a performance I will have huge respect for them! I know all of Bartoks compositions and have never been convinced...but maybe this is the people performing it?? I have played a lot of his piano music...but with an attitude of hatred? I dunno, God I hate being human!!

Thanks for letting me hear your side.  IMHO, I agree that you should probably not study Bartók, since the desire is not there for you.  There are plenty of studies to be done elsewhere.  Some pianists spend their whole lives refining the 32 LvB sonatas, and thats only a small handful of compositions in a sea of masterful works.  I would likewise stop studying Bartók, but only if I could no longer find any artistic value (or enjoyment) in pursuing my endeavor.  At the moment however, I am still finding bits and pieces of art (or what I perceive to be art) mixed in with the more confusing dissonant chords. I am also finding pieces of steady artistic melodies that the west is accustomed to hearing.  Regardless, in his compositions, our conventional melodies always eventually become burned by sudden sweeping changes in tempo and dynamics.  Perhaps that is the challenge Bartók has made to the western world.  Perhaps he has challenged us to find beauty in dissonance, just as they traditionally have done in the Hungarian area.  Consonance vs Dissonance - Good vs Evil - Light vs Dark - Cohesion vs Confusion.  From that perspective, the west appears to live in a consonant fairy tale, where no music is meant to harm our precious ears.  BUT, having said that, I do not want to downplay the western tonal system, which (in my biased opinion) is the best, and most refined musical system in the world.  Finding beauty in Bartók's form of composition is easier said than done, of course.  I am not even sure it is possible for me either.

[soliloquy]

Ok just to clarify, seeing as how a couple people actually took me seriously, what I said about Richard Kastle was a joke.  It was referring to another thread on this forum in the performance board (the one called something along the lines of "Who does this guy thinks he is (includes Horowitz diss)")

[soulmach]

Ok just to clarify, seeing as how a couple people actually took me seriously, what I said about Richard Kastle was a joke.  It was referring to another thread on this forum in the performance board (the one called something along the lines of "Who does this guy thinks he is (includes Horowitz diss)")

Oh I see.  I viewed that video, but I didn't bother to note his name
Alas... forums are not the best place for serious discussions 

[webern78]

Bartok is one of my favored composers of all time but i was never able to warm up to his piano works, other then the sonata (which is actually his first mature work) and some of the miniatures like the 9 little pieces or the advanced microcosms.

The string quartets (particularly the last four, which are among the very best ever written), the sonata for solo violin, contrasts, the Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta ect., that's where it's at.

[elevateme_returns]

I once got into trouble off my teacher for telling him that the only reason Bartok composed his Peasent songs was because he couldn't harmonise them properly and harmonised like a peasent with ni musical knowledge would.

I have returned to Bartok a lot, but don't get any satisfaction from the music at all. Contrasts for Violin piano and clarinet is cool. Thats his only decent piece in my opinion

string quartets???

[indutrial]

Bartok is one of my favored composers of all time but i was never able to warm up to his piano works, other then the sonata (which is actually his first mature work) and some of the miniatures like the 9 little pieces or the advanced microcosms.

The string quartets (particularly the last four, which are among the very best ever written), the sonata for solo violin, contrasts, the Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta ect., that's where it's at.

I would say that his piano suite is pretty excellent as well. Additionally his piano concertos are excellent, as is the sonata for two pianos and percussion.

elevateme_returns - Bartok wrote six string quartets that are collectively seen as one of the finest quartet cycles by any composer in the first half of the 1900s. If you haven't heard them, let alone heard OF them, you are missing out big time. The fourth quartet is a big-time favorite of mine from his cycle.