Abortion, more than meets the eye?

[timothy42b]

the bible says - the life is in the blood.

Not true.

The bible consistently says the life is in the breath.  All through OT and NT.  Breath, NOT blood.

[timothy42b]

While obviously most people will say that the point of the entire life/choice argument is as to whether an embryo is considered a "living human" (and if the embryo is terminated late in the second trimester the argument is stronger, but a strong majority of abortions are done in the VERY early stages of a pregnancy), /quote]

Well said.

There is an important subtext here that is rarely explicitly stated, so I will.

Yes, most of the opposition to abortion is on religious grounds, and the reason cited is the sanctity of life.  Given the disagreement over when life begins, which you eloquently covered, it is not apparent why churches should campaign so forcefully against it, but there is another religious concept working here. 

Bottom line, in many people's view a woman is pregnant because she had sinned and had sex.  If she is allowed to abort, she is allowed to escape the consequences of her sin, and we simply can't tolerate that. 

When you find thoughtful people struggling to cope with an issue as complicated as abortion, you don't usually find sex = sin foremost in their mind.  But the angry ones who are so violently "pro-life" probably based their opinion 90% on that idea. 

[pianistimo]

i'm not arguing the point about christians feeling that sex before marriage is a sin - because that's the point that God makes.  you have the possibility of another life if you become 'one' with a person and have a baby together. 

Jesus Christ gives us life by the shedding of his blood!  He mentions that 'atonement' process in the OT when animals used to be given as 'sin offerrings.'  this made people aware that sin had consequences that destroyed life (eternal life).  And, only Jesus could cover the sin by His righteous life and precious blood.  Our life is literally in His blood.

lev. 17:11 'for the life of the flesh is in the blood, and i have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.

now, if this weren't so - then anything that breathed would also be used as atonement.  typically, things have to have blood to become started in life - but they don't always start breathing until after birth.  but, when does life start?  in the womb.  that is where life begins.

lev. 17:14 'for as for the life of all flesh, its blood is identified with its life.  therefore i said to the sons of israel, you are not to eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood; whoever eats it will shall be cut off.'

[pianistimo]

part of any church communion is that rememberance of Jesus crucifixion - and we drink his symbolic 'life' (wine=blood) and eat the symbolic 'body' (flat bread=body).  if this is not true that we eat and drink this - 'you have no life in you...'  that is the way to gain entrance into the so called womb of the church and be nourished and grow - until you become 'born' of the Spirit literally.  after death - our bodies decay.  but, we can be ressurrected from a seed of God's own Holy Spirit implanted in us and allowed to grow 'fruit.'  love, joy, peace - all these are qualities of God's Spirit and will produce a matured child of God.

now, satanic churches mimic this very 'communion' excepting that they drink literal blood.  where did they get this idea (to pervert?).  i think it is a complete turn around of the respect one has for life and for God - and turn it into disrespect for life and loving death.  God does not require us to drink blood because of the reason that he said: 'the life is in the blood.'  He does not want us to disrespect life.  otherwise - our blood would not prove itself a filter and a deliverer of life and health to our bodies.  if you twist the cord and no blood goes through from placenta to baby - you have the death of a baby in the uterus.  now, if a baby can die before it is born - that proves it was alive.  a living being.

[prometheus]

So a zygote doesn't have hemoglobin. So it's not alive and can be destroyed.

[ahinton]

i'm not arguing the point about christians feeling that sex before marriage is a sin - because that's the point that God makes.  you have the possibility of another life if you become 'one' with a person and have a baby together.

Not all Christians DO feel that.  And what about those couples who either cannot or do not choose to have a baby? - can they not "become one"?

Jesus Christ gives us life by the shedding of his blood!  He mentions that 'atonement' process in the OT when animals used to be given as 'sin offerrings.'  this made people aware that sin had consequences that destroyed life (eternal life).  And, only Jesus could cover the sin by His righteous life and precious blood.  Our life is literally in His blood.

lev. 17:11 'for the life of the flesh is in the blood, and i have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.

now, if this weren't so - then anything that breathed would also be used as atonement.  typically, things have to have blood to become started in life - but they don't always start breathing until after birth.  but, when does life start?  in the womb.  that is where life begins.

lev. 17:14 'for as for the life of all flesh, its blood is identified with its life.  therefore i said to the sons of israel, you are not to eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood; whoever eats it will shall be cut off.'

Bible, Bible. Bible. Bible.

Bible.




And yet more Bible.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

part of any church communion is that rememberance of Jesus crucifixion - and we drink his symbolic 'life' (wine=blood) and eat the symbolic 'body' (flat bread=body).

Yes, Susan - SYMBOLIC. I'm pleased that you appreciate that.

if this is not true that we eat and drink this - 'you have no life in you...'  that is the way to gain entrance into the so called womb of the church and be nourished and grow - until you become 'born' of the Spirit literally.  after death - our bodies decay.  but, we can be ressurrected from a seed of God's own Holy Spirit implanted in us and allowed to grow 'fruit.'  love, joy, peace - all these are qualities of God's Spirit and will produce a matured child of God.

So you say - but you have no proof. I am not in any sense undermining the desire of genuine Christians to commit this symbolic act, but how you interpret it must be similarly symbolic, whereas you seem to want to transfer it from the symbolic to the literal to suit what you happen to believe.

now, satanic churches mimic this very 'communion' excepting that they drink literal blood.  where did they get this idea (to pervert?).  i think it is a complete turn around of the respect one has for life and for God - and turn it into disrespect for life and loving death.  God does not require us to drink blood because of the reason that he said: 'the life is in the blood.'  He does not want us to disrespect life.  otherwise - our blood would not prove itself a filter and a deliverer of life and health to our bodies.  if you twist the cord and no blood goes through from placenta to baby - you have the death of a baby in the uterus.  now, if a baby can die before it is born - that proves it was alive.  a living being.

"If" being the operative word. Do you have "churches" like that in PA? I think I'll perhaps give the state a wide berth after all...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Anyone got today's encyrption key password for pianistimo's posts?

Thanks

Thal

[thalberg]

Anyone got today's encyrption key password for pianistimo's posts?

Thanks

Thal

I have no idea what this means.  Is there one every day?  I don't understand.

[mike_lang]

Anyone got today's encyrption key password for pianistimo's posts?

Thanks

Thal

One million dollars to whomever discovers the master key.

[ahinton]

One million dollars to whomever discovers the master key.

Shouldn't that be the "mistress key" in this particular instance? And I hope that you have the million dollars ready and waiting in a bank account for transfer out (although I suppose that those dollars are merely Canadian)...

Best,

Alistair

[mike_lang]

Shouldn't that be the "mistress key" in this particular instance? And I hope that you have the million dollars ready and waiting in a bank account for transfer out (although I suppose that those dollars are merely Canadian)...

Best,

Alistair

Actually - I am counting on the uncrackable enigmacity of the posts, but I shall be quite hard-up for the million, as I am one of the token Langlois(es) in the United States...  Perhaps an I.O.U. will do, since the discoverer will be, most likely, quite pleased with him/her-self, nevertheless, for such a monumental achievement.

Michael

[thalbergmad]

Not even Champollion could decode pianistimo.

[pianistimo]

hey, if the bible has been 'uncoded' supposedly - then i'm an easy catch.  but, if the Holy Spirit speaks 'inutterable words' - you'll never be able to without praying first.  maybe even fasting - but that's another topic.

ok.  about the zygotes.  you probably know more about this than me, prometheus.  i just know that from one cell to many cells (blastocyst) a baby begins the growth process.  adding cell after cell by dividing.  when this starts to happen (and no person can duplicate this process, btw) - you have 'life' also because - it is growing.  this is further defining the process of building the placenta and the beginning cells of a baby and hooking them together so the baby will maintain nourishment for it's development.  now, you can get technical and say 'there's no blood yet' - but what is making the cells divide?  God.  God makes our tiny beginnings and He makes us become apparent (as to who we are going to be in finality).

 

[ahinton]

Actually - I am counting on the uncrackable enigmacity of the posts, but I shall be quite hard-up for the million, as I am one of the token Langlois(es) in the United States...  Perhaps an I.O.U. will do, since the discoverer will be, most likely, quite pleased with him/her-self, nevertheless, for such a monumental achievement.

Michael

Well, as I'm one of the even less than token Lecossais in the (dis)United Queendom, I'll probably be even gladder of that million (even if it is only in $Can) than you will be hard pressed to find it...

Best,

Alexandre

[pianistimo]

yes.  what with platinum 2x more expensive than gold here.  what's going on?

[ahinton]

hey, if the bible has been 'uncoded' supposedly - then i'm an easy catch.

I'll remember that - and I might accordingly hold out my hands to do the catching...

but, if the Holy Spirit speaks 'inutterable words'

You mean "unutterable"? - well, then it will have made an oxymoron of itself...

you'll never be able to without praying first.

To do what?

maybe even fasting - but that's another topic.

Er - yes...

ok.  about the zygotes.  you probably know more about this than me, prometheus.  i just know that from one cell to many cells (blastocyst) a baby begins the growth process.  adding cell after cell by dividing.  when this starts to happen (and no person can duplicate this process, btw) - you have 'life' also because - it is growing.  this is further defining the process of building the placenta and the beginning cells of a baby and hooking them together so the baby will maintain nourishment for it's development.  now, you can get technical and say 'there's no blood yet' - but what is making the cells divide?  God.  God makes our tiny beginnings and He makes us become apparent (as to who we are going to be in finality).

God, God and more God. Yawn! But let's instead be practical about this. Someone has to decide when "life" that can sensibly be termed sentient life actually commences, for the purpose of assessing the deadline before which abortion can be performed legally - but whatever that commencement point is, it is surely not conception itself, whatever the intent may be. One reason why I say this is that, so far, at least, no one knows to the point of being able instantly to identify when conception begins at the time that it actually does begin, so the measuring of the clock's ticking cannot even commence until that clock has actually been ticking for some time (that will change in the future, of course, but it's not yet the case).

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

yes.  what with platinum 2x more expensive than gold here.  what's going on?

Er - pardonistimo?

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

don't bother with canadian or us dollars.  stick with the platinum standard (that's what we have now).  ?  wierd, i know.  (people say it is mental only.  it weighs more - therefore - when you put it in your hand you think you're rich).

wHO IS BUYING UP ALL THE GOLD?

do you remember pokemon cards?

[ahinton]

don't bother with canadian or us dollars.

I don't, particularly, except when needing to purchase something or other in Canada or US...

stick with the platinum standard (that's what we have now).  ?  wierd, i know.  (people say it is mental only.  it weighs more - therefore - when you put it in your hand you think you're rich).

wHO IS BUYING UP ALL THE GOLD?

do you remember pokemon cards?

Er - what's any of this stuff got to do with abortion, then?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

wHO IS BUYING UP ALL THE GOLD?

Only the first letter needs to be a capital, with the rest lower case

[Torp]

stick with the platinum standard (that's what we have now).  ?  wierd, i know. 

Platinum standard? You are from Pennsylvania right? Which is in the US right? We're not on any standard since we got off the gold standard. Unless you're referring to something other than the way the US dollar is valued. In which case, as usual, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Jef

[soliloquy]

do you remember pokemon cards?

This isn't exactly a trivial thread.

[pita bread]

(flat bread=body)

 

[pianistimo]

  

the other night they were selling gold coins for $350. or so and then platinum coins were double.  but, is that their true value? 

[ahinton]

 

the other night they were selling gold coins for $350. or so and then platinum coins were double.  but, is that their true value? 

Monetary value (i.e. as currency, metal value and numismatic value are three different things, just as valuations of houses for selling, insurance and lending purposes (perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned that last one to an American!) are three different things.

But what on earth has any of this to do with the thread topic? Soliloquy was right to point out that this is not exactly a trivial thread, but what do you do some of the time when contributing to it? - you either use it as yet another excuse to bring in God where He has no particular place to be or you wander off the topic to the extent that you have here by talking about coins. Coins? Did any woman ever abort a coin?? Sorry, that was a trivial comment and this is not a trivial thread. So can we please get back to intelligent and serious discussion of that topic - it's hardly unimportant, after all...

Best,

Alistair

[le_poete_mourant]

One point I have thought about much lately is that when someone says they are "pro-choice," it does not necessarily mean they are "pro-abortion."  Simply, pro-choice means that a person believes that in America -- where we all enjoy the choices given to us by freedom of speech, press, religion, right to bear arms, assemble, vote, etc. etc. etc. -- a woman should have the choice of whether she wants to have a baby. 

Usually, when the government gives a woman a choice on whether she can handle motherhood -- financially, responsibly, and emotionally -- she makes a good decision. 

I have been reading "Freakonomics," by Steven Levitt lately, and it his point on abortion is very interesting.  He attributes the decline in crime in the mid-90s, particularly violent crime, to the Roe v. Wade legalization of abortion.  Less unwanted babies = less future criminals.  That's his take, anyway.  I'm not saying it's morally correct.

[ahinton]

One point I have thought about much lately is that when someone says they are "pro-choice," it does not necessarily mean they are "pro-abortion."  Simply, pro-choice means that a person believes that in America -- where we all enjoy the choices given to us by freedom of speech, press, religion, right to bear arms, assemble, vote, etc. etc. etc. -- a woman should have the choice of whether she wants to have a baby.

A very valid point, that; it may sound abit like semantics but it is in fact nothing of the kind, since it illustates the considerable conceptual difference between "pro-choice" and "pro-life" and reveals that they are no opposites as such.

Usually, when the government gives a woman a choice on whether she can handle motherhood -- financially, responsibly, and emotionally -- she makes a good decision. 

By "gives" I take you to mean "allows"; how often a woman makes the most appropriate decision when it is left to her to make it herself rather than decided for her by anyone else may still be somewhat open to question, I think, but I conceded that the most appropriate decision is far more likely to be made when the very person whom it will most affect is left to make it herself.

I have been reading "Freakonomics," by Steven Levitt lately, and it his point on abortion is very interesting.  He attributes the decline in crime in the mid-90s, particularly violent crime, to the Roe v. Wade legalization of abortion.  Less unwanted babies = less future criminals.  That's his take, anyway.  I'm not saying it's morally correct.

I'm not even saying that it's correct at all! There may be a grain or more of truth in it, of course, but just how many such grains must remain open to serious doubt, especially given all the other many and varied causes of crime...

Best,

Alistair

[le_poete_mourant]

I'm not even saying that it's correct at all! There may be a grain or more of truth in it, of course, but just how many such grains must remain open to serious doubt, especially given all the other many and varied causes of crime...

Best,

Alistair

Yes, it did raise some doubts in my mind too.  Youth are not the sole perpetrators of violent crimes.  Levitt did attribute it to other factors as well -- innovative policing techniques, increased police force, other things. 

[soliloquy]

You know, maybe pro-life advocates aren't so bad.  After all, they ARE the same people responsible for this:

https://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/223997.aspx


The selectiveness sort of confuses me though.

[ahinton]

You know, maybe pro-life advocates aren't so bad.  After all, they ARE the same people responsible for this:
https://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/223997.aspx
The selectiveness sort of confuses me though.

It's not so much a case of "pro-lifers'" selectivity that bothers me as the nauseating fundamentalist-dictatorial sounds of their "proselytising fury" (to [mis?-]appropriate a term from René Guénon) as they seem to seek to tell everyone that their inflexible views against abortion under any and all circumstances regardless of human compassion, understanding and practicality are the only and right ones to hold; the more entrenched of the "pro-life" côterie seem to care far less about scientific truths, necessities and practicalities as they do about telling people that, if they happen under any circumstances to conceive, it is a crime against the state and a grossly immoral act to even contemplate doing anything other than  proceeding towards and committing the act of giving birth. Sending military personnel on no-hope wild goose chases to Iraq and other places at high fatality risk yet in utter disregard for the value of their lives is not precisely the same issue, but I do accept that it is at the very least an arguably related issue.

Best,

Alistair

[prometheus]

No. Pro-life-ers are against capital punishment and they are also against war. Probably pacifists but certainly against war of aggression.


I have been in anti-war demonstrations together with pro-life Christians.

[pianistimo]

not all pro-lifers are against captal punishment.  take me for instance.  i am pro-life and for capital punishment.  why?  because it wastes tax money.  do you realize how much LESS crime would be committed if people got more than a slap on the wrist.  do you realize that entire families would be saved from mass child murder if their parents knew they would get the same.  that pregnant women wouldn't be done in casually (first going missing and causing immense grief to their families - and later found murdered).  that people who randomly knock off others for drugs and other reasons would get their 'just desserts.'  the bible is certainly 'eye for an eye.'  but, it has to be proven beyond a doubt to make it right.  and i am not for inhumane treatment of prisoners.  i think if they shot someone - they should go out back and be shot.  if they stabbed someone - a grim reaper should randomly stab them when they are sleeping.  it's the only way they'll feel right about what they did.  to experience it themselves.  perhaps this is what they secretly want anyways.

as i see it - jail is for the criminals that haven't killed anyone intentionally.  the ones that there are doubts about dna evidence.  whether planted or not.  not people who have killed 50 times.  not sure what to think about insane people.  a lot of people plead insanity - but didn't show signs of it until they murdered.  take the virginia tech guy - he literally planned this whole thing and then pretends it had something to do with his meds.  i guess a judge has to work this out - but as i see it - it is extreme selfishness with no worry about tommorrow.  what if we made them worry about tommorrow?

where are the anti-terrorist demonstrations?  i suppose caches of weapons sent to south america, and canada are alright?  that people can cross the border and randomly shoot people - but we shouldn't defend our country by being on the offense.  this is ridiculous to insanity.  how do you think we became a free country?  by using guns.  this is not a christian way - but the way the world works.  you don't just 'get freedom.'  you pay for it with blood.  if we don't put the pressure on mexico and south america to lay down arms - we should stand up and fight like they did at the alamo.  they are challenging us right now by taking prisoners (25 are GONE from USA!) what is president bush going to do?  iraq is FAR AWAY.  bring them back and fight right here.  it's what we need NOW!

[prometheus]

not all pro-lifers are against captal punishment.  take me for instance.  i am pro-life and for capital punishment.  why?  because it wastes tax money.

Then you are pro-money, not pro-life.


Anyway, where in the bible does it say money is more important than the lives of people? I know you need to kill people god hates, loving them while you kill them. But I don't know any bible verse that says that about money.

...do you realize how much LESS crime would be committed if people got more than a slap on the wrist.

You mean killing them?

No, I don't. Actually, I know for a fact that killing people doesn't stop many criminals. It only stops rational criminals that calculate the odds of getting caught and the punishment they might receive against the 'advantage' they hope to gain.

So yeah, maybe capital punishment for tax and stock fraud would be a good idea. And killing bankers that launder criminal money, that would stop many of them. Why? Because these are crimes committed by people rationally. Murders are almost never rational; they don't consider their fate as murders at all.
But still, chance to get caught plays a bigger role than compared to punishment.

Also, it doesn't make killing people in itself moral.

...do you realize that entire families would be saved from mass child murder if their parents knew they would get the same.

]

Saved from what? Actually families of victims are often disgusted by the fact that the murderer is killed as well. I know I would.



Ok, so you are against life for murders and against abortion. Please don't lie about being pro-life.

[pianistimo]

if we do not take care of mexico - the UN is going to do it for us by sending a task force.  how helpful is that going to be?  yes.  one continent.  forget the stupid semi-agenda of a border.  it's just not in the world plan scenario and those at top know it.  they've already sold the bill of goods to the one world plan 50 years ago.

ps why don't you say 'pro- honest use of tax money?'  this is horrendous waste!  how about using this money for preventative means?

murder is when someone plans to kill someone and does it with malice of forethought and very little reason.  justice is when someone dies for killing an innocent person.

as i see it - our justice system is a farce.  that is because it is not based on biblical precepts anymore and is following a one-world system of law which leaves out the supreme wisdom of the universe.  God values human life to the extent that he said to cain that he was marked for life for murder.  when people saw that he was - they kept their distance.  today, murderers and pedophiles can live in your neighborhood and their 'rights' are more important that yours.

[prometheus]

Like I said before, go to a country like Iran or Saudi Arabia. There they have biblical punishments.

[pianistimo]

they probably have more virgins and less pedophiles and murderers.

[pianistimo]

literally no thieves (due to hand chopping).

[pianistimo]

they have relatively little problem with overcrowded prisons, don't they?

[pianistimo]

we will know who has justice in mind when a few years pass.  i think there are those that know true justice on both sides.

[thalbergmad]

they probably have more virgins and less pedophiles and murderers.

Well if that is the case, i'm going.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

they have relatively little problem with overcrowded prisons, don't they?

Of course, they have killed all the prisoners.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

we will know who has justice in mind when a few years pass. 

Indeed we will Sister, the 2nd coming is upon us and we must all ready ourselves for the day when Jesus comes bouncing along the clouds of redemption.

I will be there as his most faithful servant, when he comes to rid the world of all sin.

Bollox

Thal

[ahinton]

if we do not take care of mexico - the UN is going to do it for us by sending a task force.

What's Mexico got to do with this subject? And in any case, your "we" and "us" means the United States of America, of which, in case you'd somehow omitted to notice, not everyone here or even elsewhere is actually a citizen...

how helpful is that going to be?  yes.  one continent.  forget the stupid semi-agenda of a border.  it's just not in the world plan scenario and those at top know it.  they've already sold the bill of goods to the one world plan 50 years ago.

So where does Canada and the eight central American states fit into this scenario which, let me remind you once again, has absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic?

ps why don't you say 'pro- honest use of tax money?'  this is horrendous waste!  how about using this money for preventative means?

murder is when someone plans to kill someone and does it with malice of forethought and very little reason.  justice is when someone dies for killing an innocent person.

The definition of "murder" in strictly legal terms varies from one country's jurisdiction to another; even within UK, the differences between the potential and actual interpretations of "murder" and "manslaughter" are not inconsiderable, even within a single one of its provinces, let alone between, say, England and Scotland. People can die at the hands of others by means of war, premeditated or unpremeditated killing by someone of sound or unsound mind, culpable accident (where, for example, someone kills someone else without specific intent to do so by means of a motor vehicle as a result of sheer irresponsible carelessness), inculpable accident (when the same happens while the person at the wheel loses control by reason of, say, a stroke or heart attack) and so on and so on; your typically simplistic and antediluvian "eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth" argument simply does not embrace credibility.

as i see it - our justice system is a farce.  that is because it is not based on biblical precepts anymore and is following a one-world system of law which leaves out the supreme wisdom of the universe.  God values human life to the extent that he said to cain that he was marked for life for murder.  when people saw that he was - they kept their distance.  today, murderers and pedophiles can live in your neighborhood and their 'rights' are more important that yours.

Oh, here we go again - "as I see it" followed by some Biblical pronouncement, as usual - and, as usual, it doesn't help. Yes, I do agree with you, of course, that the risk that serious criminals might be living in one's own neighbourhood is a not inconsiderable one, but there is absolutely nothing that anyone can do about that risk, regardless of the kind of "law" anyone might seek to impose. One must always remember that imposing any law is one thing but policing it successfully and consistently is always going to be quite another.

Back to the topic, anyone?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Indeed we will Sister, the 2nd coming is upon us and we must all ready ourselves for the day when Jesus comes bouncing along the clouds of redemption.

I will be there as his most faithful servant, when he comes to rid the world of all sin.

Bollox

Thal

Honestly, Thal, there's really very little point in your continuing to mock this intransigent and inflexible nonsense for, in the end, intransigent and inflexible nonense it sadly is, second comings and goings and all. So why not give it a rest and employ your "bollox" only for the purpose/s for which they were intended?

And, in the meantime, might it be remotely permissible to get back to the thread topic?

Best,

Alistair

[prometheus]

If the second coming is so close then just please and we will see for ourselves how wrong we are.

[ahinton]

If the second coming is so close then just please and we will see for ourselves how wrong we are.

"then just please" what? Is there a word missing here? All I expect is the second (or rather more than that) coming of Susan with her Biblical quotations and fearmongerings. As someone said to me a while back, "I'm looking forward to the second coming of Jesus Christ, even if only because I want to see whether he will take over the Berlin or the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra"; I'm not so sure about this, although it might pehaps be interesting to observe what would happen were he to get in front of either with Bruckner's Ninth Symphony, dedicated as it is to God...

Anyway, in the meantime, is there the remotest chance of getting back to the topic of abortion?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Anyway, in the meantime, is there the remotest chance of getting back to the topic of abortion?

Not as long as people are posting about the possibilty of Jesus becoming a conductor.

Thal

[prometheus]

Arg, word filter... stf u

[wotgoplunk]

Not as long as people are posting about the possibilty of Jesus becoming a conductor.

Thal

Why does everything always stem back to religion? Does it have an actual reason, or is it just pianistimo?