For Marik

[j849266]

Marik,

I was wondering what your thoughts are about sitting at the piano. Sitting Low vs sitting
High or is it somewhere inbetween. This is a topic that I have been discussing with fellow pianists and have come up with conflicting ideas. Is it purely preference or is there a correct way so one can gain the most out of ones playing? To me sitting low seems to cut off the ability to use ones arm weight. I could be wrong I just wanted to see how you feel about this topic.

Thanks

Jerry

[invictious]

Hello, welcome to the forums.
Awww, why did you only address Marik? Well, personally, I am pretty tall for my age, so obviously I set my bench lower.
There are obviously pros and cons to having high seats or low seats.
This is it summed up as far as I know:

Low Seat:
Can feel the keys more (know when there is the bottom etc)
hence, more control
If improper, shoulders can be tensed up.

High Seat:
More strength, power, force. Less control over keys as it is harder to feel the bottom of the key.


That's just what i feel personally, so you don't have to take it seriously or whatever.

[j849266]

Hello, welcome to the forums.
Awww, why did you only address Marik? Well, personally, I am pretty tall for my age, so obviously I set my bench lower.
There are obviously pros and cons to having high seats or low seats.
This is it summed up as far as I know:

Low Seat:
Can feel the keys more (know when there is the bottom etc)
hence, more control
If improper, shoulders can be tensed up.

High Seat:
More strength, power, force. Less control over keys as it is harder to feel the bottom of the key.


That's just what i feel personally, so you don't have to take it seriously or whatever.

So does this mean that different pieces of music require sitting at different heights on the bench. If you say that both levels of sitting have there advantages/disadvantages, wouldnt you then want to adjust the bench to each individual piece you play? Gaining most out of whatever the piece may require. Is this what you are getting at? I want to make sure I understand. If that is correct then is there somewhere in between sitting both low or high that one can gain both advantages?

[ramseytheii]

So does this mean that different pieces of music require sitting at different heights on the bench. If you say that both levels of sitting have there advantages/disadvantages, wouldnt you then want to adjust the bench to each individual piece you play? Gaining most out of whatever the piece may require. Is this what you are getting at? I want to make sure I understand. If that is correct then is there somewhere in between sitting both low or high that one can gain both advantages?

From my experience, it's too much to say that different pieces of music require different heights.  If I may generalize, i think the Classical composers can be played from any height, comfortably.  I don't think it is possible to play many Chopin Etudes from a low seat, unless your body in particular, in exception to the rule in other words, allows it.  The reason is the weight can't be engaged, and engaging the weight of the body is essential for playing Chopin and most piano composers after him.

Walter Ramsey

[cmg]

Probably the only rule I could give on seating is any height that allows you to engage the weight of your body behind the fingers with complete control.  As Marik wrote earlier on technique, you play from the hips.  Your arms, then fingers, transmit that energy to the keyboard.

Also not a rule, but an observation, is that seating that is too high tends to produce a more brittle, percussive tone.  If you watch videos of fine pianists, few of them sit perched high up above the keys.  Kissin and Hamelin are examples of rather common seating heights emplyed by great pianists.  Lower than higher. 

Watch Argerich, too.  Her elbows normally are just slightly below the keyboard. 

[rc]

Honestly it's not something I give a lot of thought to anymore.  I found a comfortable height for my body, I have a smaller torso so I generally have my bench up high.  But I just adapt to whatever's available, sometimes a piano doesn't have an adjustable bench.

It reminds me of some guitarists I've met, who say they can only play on their guitar because that's what they're used to, I've always thought that was impractical and inflexible.  Give me any instrument, any bench, any room - I will make it work.  We ought to be adaptable, especially as pianists!

[j849266]

Thanks everyone for your comments! Its always helpfull to hear different peoples thoughts. Keep em coming please.

Especially Marik who hasnt commented yet 

[cmg]

Especially Marik who hasnt commented yet 

Marik, as I understand from his earlier posts, is on tour right now.  You'll have to be patient.

In the meantime, consider this:  your seating is ultimately judged by the sound you produce at the instrument.  If your sound is harsh and brittle, you may be sitting too high.  But, then again, that's not always the case.  You may be sitting low, but your shoulders and arms are rigid with tension.  In that instance, even low seating can produce a harsh sound.

The absence of tension, ultimately, produces the finest sound.  Only you can judge this.  Ovewhelmingly, lower seating induces you to relax.  A tension-free body produces the finest sound.  I think Marik will echo these sentiments.  He's a product of the great Russian school.  That's my training as well.

But, let's wait for him to comment.

p.s.   Mr. Walter Ramsey suggests that Chopin Etudes require higher seating.  I don't agree.  Engagement of body weight is possible from lower seating.  In fact, using Arrau as a prime example, lower seating produces the lushest tone.  But lower seating is not Arrau's ultimate secret:  it's his ability to approach the instrument without any tension. It just so happens that he utilizes lower seating.  However, I think there is a connection.  Horowitz is another prime example.  Check out his videos. 

[j849266]

just thought I would throw this back up and see if Marik or anyone else has any thoughts

Thanks

Jerry

[slobone]

I apologize for not being Marik 

I also am tall, and for that reason I chose a rather low seat. Until I started working on a piece with a lot of octaves. They were just killing my wrist. So now I sit higher and I haven't had any problems so far.

[rachfan]

Hi slobone,

Forgive me for responding before marik, but this is an important topic, so here's my two cents.

Sitting low can do wonders for tone production.  However, there is more stress in lifting the the weight of the arms against gravity.  Sitting higher can facilitate velocity, but also tends to produce a thin, bland "gray" sound rather than the richer tones when sitting lower.

Before I retired, I took a couple of seminars in office ergonomics from two different groups involved with workers compensation claims and employee rehabilitation.  Ergonomics also became part of my management portfolio at two different companies.  I was especially concerned about tendonitis and carpel tunnel syndrome developing in workers sitting at PCs where the workstations were not configured ergonomically.  Once we helped the employees with those issues, claimed decreased almost to nothing.  So the principles work.  And yes, from the pain you experienced, keyboarding without attention to ergonomics can indeed lead to injury.  When you think about it, a computer keyboard shares a lot in common with a piano keyboard.

So here's the thing:  (And yes, I have an adjustable artist bench at home and practice what I preach.)  You would best sit on the front half of the bench or chair in front of the piano.  Your elbows should be LEVEL with the keyboard, forearms PARALLEL to the floor.  Your wrists should be extended NEUTRALLY--not at an upward or downward angle.  You cannot judge this for yourself.  You need someone to stand and look at you actually sitting in profile at the piano who can better determine whether you are positioned as stated above, or not.  This is exactly how I sit to play the piano now.  For me, the question is not shall I sit high or low?  Rather, it's: Am I sitting correctly according to ergonomic principles to maximize comfort and efficiency, while minimizing the possibility of pain or, worse, injury?

If you feel tightness in your arms or hands, here's a cure.  Stand up away from the piano.   Next, drop your arms and dangle and rotate them slightly back and forth, as if they were a couple of ropes dangling in the wind.  Then swing them in front of you such that when they cross in front of you, they momentarily form an X.  After you do that for a minute or less, you should be able to sit at the piano and continue on as if nothing happened.  If not, give it a rest for 15 minutes or so.  Never play through pain. 

I hope this helps.   

[slobone]

Thanks, rachfan, something to think about. Unfortunately I don't have an adjustable bench, only a choice of two chairs at different heights. At the moment the higher chair seems to be working for me.

I didn't mean to imply that I was playing through pain. I'm too big a sissy ever to do that. Life is too short to be miserable while playing the piano    As soon as I feel any problem (like numbness in the right hand while doing Hanon) I stop.

Somewhere along the line I think I'm going to have to take a few lessons with somebody who can help me correct the bad habits I've developed with regard to the use of hands, wrists, and arms. (If I can find somebody I trust around here.) One thing I've started doing already is pushing the chair back further to force me to use my arms more and my fingers less for moving up and down the keyboard. Somebody on this forum suggested it, thanks whoever you are.

[rachfan]

Hi slobone,

Pushing the chair back is OK to an extent.  To test that, look to see where your knees are.  On a grand piano they should be tucked approximately one to two inches underneath the keyboard case.  If you're in too close or too far out, you can adjust accordingly using that easy observation. 

Also, if you're stuck with those two chairs, and if the higher one seems to work but is not ideal, see if you can buy an inexpensive, firm, but comfortable seat cushion for the lower chair that will bring you up to level.  That would probably be your best alternative to get by.  Sitting properly at the piano is way more important than many people think.  You're obviously more aware of this issue, just judging from your questions, which is a good thing.  Remember, if something doesn't feel right to you, then it's probably wrong. 

Yes, if you can find a good teacher, definitely take lessons!  You'll be glad you did.   

[m]

Marik,

I was wondering what your thoughts are about sitting at the piano. Sitting Low vs sitting
High or is it somewhere inbetween. This is a topic that I have been discussing with fellow pianists and have come up with conflicting ideas. Is it purely preference or is there a correct way so one can gain the most out of ones playing? To me sitting low seems to cut off the ability to use ones arm weight. I could be wrong I just wanted to see how you feel about this topic.

Thanks

Jerry

Dear Jerry,

Sorry, for one or another reason I kept missing this thread.
I cannot give a definitive answer to your question, as both sitting high or low will very much depend on your physical constitution and your ideas about sound and technique.

Definitely, when you sit you have to feel comfortable, both physically and mentally, so I'd say--sit down next to the piano, feel your spine as a center up to the tip of your head, look at the keyboard, and reach with your hands. The keys should be continuation of your body (starting from your toes). You should feel that there is no tension anywhere and you don't need to hold your hands. You should feel a canal between your head and fingertips--some kind of feeling when your mental energy just poures into the finger tips.

Ones you found that feeling, that is the "correct way", regardless whether you are sitting high or low.

Sorry if it is confusing.

Best, M

[nick]

From my experience, it's too much to say that different pieces of music require different heights.  If I may generalize, i think the Classical composers can be played from any height, comfortably.  I don't think it is possible to play many Chopin Etudes from a low seat, unless your body in particular, in exception to the rule in other words, allows it.  The reason is the weight can't be engaged, and engaging the weight of the body is essential for playing Chopin and most piano composers after him.

Walter Ramsey

Walter, when you said sitting low won't allow the weight to be engaged by the body to play Chopin as well, did you mean more volume is needed than the weight of the arms can accomplish? I know sitting low from my experience produces more volume, weight, than sitting  higher. Easy to see this by just letting arm weight be supported by a finger on table top at one sitting height, then try putting finger on something higher up (or lower seat) and you can feel the difference. Gould played very loud at times with low seat. I cannot play this way as arms get too tired. So I am not sure what you meant. Please clarify that. Thanks

Nick

[thierry13]

Walter, when you said sitting low won't allow the weight to be engaged by the body to play Chopin as well, did you mean more volume is needed than the weight of the arms can accomplish? I know sitting low from my experience produces more volume, weight, than sitting  higher. Easy to see this by just letting arm weight be supported by a finger on table top at one sitting height, then try putting finger on something higher up (or lower seat) and you can feel the difference. Gould played very loud at times with low seat. I cannot play this way as arms get too tired. So I am not sure what you meant. Please clarify that. Thanks

Nick

Actually, Gould did not sit low for power, he sat low for control (or anyways that's what he told). Sitting high gives actually much more power and you can use much more the power and weight of your back to play. Weight of the arm is pointless and will leed to injury. The weight comes from the back. I recommend switching teacher if he tells you to use the weight of the arm.

[general disarray]

Sitting high gives actually much more power and you can use much more the power and weight of your back to play. Weight of the arm is pointless and will leed to injury. The weight comes from the back. I recommend switching teacher if he tells you to use the weight of the arm.

I'm not sure I understand you here.  Sitting high is apt to produce a bangy sound.  Sitting low engages the weight of the body just as much as sitting high.  Notice videos of Horowitz, for one, who uses low seating.  Watch how he leans his whole body into the keyboard when he wants a powerful, full sound. 

What you want is the whole body behind your fingers -- body weight channelled through the arms to the hands.  Using arm weight won't injure you, either.  It's unrelenting tension that causes injury.  Arm weight is how a beautiful, rounded tone is produced and it's not just the arms -- it's the body weight behind the arms.

Just leaning forward into the keyboard will transfer this body weight at whatever height you use.  Many great pianists use high seating, but still produce a beautiful tone.  This is because they manage body weight with their arms and employ micro-bursts of weight through quick muscular contractions that immediately "de-contract" after each effort.  Sort of like, muscularly speaking, catching one's breath.  This allows tension to dissipate and relaxation to enter. 

This is confusing, isn't it?  Hard to explain, easier to demonstrate.

[m]

I recommend switching teacher if he tells you to use the weight of the arm.

I think this kind of statement is very narrow minded. Moreover, potentially it can be quite harmful--you are judging the teacher without knowing particular situation or context. You are questioning the authority of the teacher, undermining his/hers professional competence, without having any idea what you are talking about.
You are giving very wrong message to people here.

In my opinion, it is unethical, to say the least. You should be much more careful and think before you say something like this.

M

[thierry13]

I think this kind of statement is very narrow minded. Moreover, potentially it can be quite harmful--you are judging the teacher without knowing particular situation or context. You are questioning the authority of the teacher, undermining his/hers professional competence, without having any idea what you are talking about.
You are giving very wrong message to people here.

In my opinion, it is unethical, to say the least. You should be much more careful and think before you say something like this.

M

I was obviously joking. Maybe it was not that obvious ... oops. Sorry about that. Of course using only the weight of  the arm and forgetting the rest is harmful to you, but I was joking about switching teacher ... of course I can't judge with only that information ...

[thierry13]

I'm not sure I understand you here.  Sitting high is apt to produce a bangy sound.  Sitting low engages the weight of the body just as much as sitting high.  Notice videos of Horowitz, for one, who uses low seating.  Watch how he leans his whole body into the keyboard when he wants a powerful, full sound. 

What you want is the whole body behind your fingers -- body weight channelled through the arms to the hands.  Using arm weight won't injure you, either.  It's unrelenting tension that causes injury.  Arm weight is how a beautiful, rounded tone is produced and it's not just the arms -- it's the body weight behind the arms.

Just leaning forward into the keyboard will transfer this body weight at whatever height you use.  Many great pianists use high seating, but still produce a beautiful tone.  This is because they manage body weight with their arms and employ micro-bursts of weight through quick muscular contractions that immediately "de-contract" after each effort.  Sort of like, muscularly speaking, catching one's breath.  This allows tension to dissipate and relaxation to enter. 

This is confusing, isn't it?  Hard to explain, easier to demonstrate.

I never said it was impossible to use the weight of the whole body by sitting low. I actually sit kinda low usually. Horowitz's sitting is very good. It's simply easier to get the whole weight of the body behind you when you sit high. Is that good ? Not necessarily, if the piece you play requires control of weight, it will be much harder to reduce this weight.

[thierry13]

I was obviously joking. Maybe it was not that obvious ... oops. Sorry about that. Of course using only the weight of  the arm and forgetting the rest is harmful to you, but I was joking about switching teacher ... of course I can't judge with only that information ...

And no I did not create the joke thing because of your reply ... if I didn't mean it as a joke I would have backed up what I said and would have argued with more depth.  But it's not the case so ...