Opus Archimagicum

[djealnla]

If we take a durational threshold of, say, 135 minutes as a guide, it is surely far too early to predict comparisons between Sorabji's various large-scale pieces in terms of their relative importance in his output and how they might be accepted by listeners when the only ones that have yet been performed in public are the first two organ symphonies, the fourth and fifth piano symphonies, the fourth piano sonata, Sequentia Cyclica and OC - just seven works of which only three have been released on CD and only three have received more than a single complete public performance in living memory. As to the comparative difficulty of performance, it is again premature to make pronouncements about this, not only because what may be "difficult" for one performer will inevitably be less so for another but also because so few players have actually performed these pieces to date; OC has had 5 performers, the fourth piano sonata only 2 and all the others only one each.

Best,

Alistair

Alistair, I'm not sure if I understand your post, I was merely referring to one of Sorabji's letters, not judging his compositions on my own. Also, his statement concerned merely his piano works (although later in the same letter he did make mention of works which were not written for piano).

[retrouvailles]

These short extracts of OA sounds quite uninteresting to my ears, compared to OC at least (I have listened to OC a lot more so there is probably bias). This OA is not really a masterpiece when I listen to it, maybe I have to listen to it more, the OC however I had to listen to it only a couple of times to appreciate it, this OA is somewhat very rambling and the developments are uninteresting to me (maybe other sections will sound better).

Just from a brief look, Tellef is leaving out some of the most interesting materials in each of the movements. For example, the Punta d'Organo movement seems to have some of the most interesting material in the piece upon a brief look, but Tellef only posted the outer sections of this movement. Please do give it a second chance when the recording comes out. I know I am excited to get it.

[ahinton]

Alistair, I'm not sure if I understand your post, I was merely referring to one of Sorabji's letters, not judging his compositions on my own. Also, his statement concerned merely his piano works (although later in the same letter he did make mention of works which were not written for piano).

I was not necessarily seeking to suggest that you were personally doing so, but the temptation is out there for some people to try to make comparative value judgements about the content and difficulty of these pieces; the sole purpose of my post on that particular subject was to try to point out that it is premature to attempt such things right now.

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

I think a discussion of "what is a better piece" is a bit of a waste of time if one thinks of how few Sorabji pieces have been played/recorder as of yet. And to compare a piece that has been available in several recordings for 26 years now and has been played on various occasions by various people with a piece of which so far only a few bits have been available in as yet non final recording is, well, silly. By the look of the score I do think OpusArch may well be a relevation on the scale of Sequentia Cyclica.
Personally, the piece that has had made the greatest impression on me on a first hearing is Sequentia Cyclica, but the performance of Organ Symphony 2 I had the rare privilege of attending was equally amazing from start to finish too (and of that the performer does not consider it much more than a public playthrough, not nearly what he wants it to be, so we are in for someting special there too!).
At this time, OC would not be my favorite Sorabji piece, but that might change when we finally get that recording by Jonathan Powell!

All that said, I am greatly looking forward to having that recording of OpusArch for, as said, the score looks amazing!

gep

[djealnla]

Deleted

[djealnla]

Um... sorry for bumping, but what happened to Tellef Johnson's recording of this piece? Will it ever get released?

[indutrial]

Um... sorry for bumping, but what happened to Tellef Johnson's recording of this piece? Will it ever get released?

They carry it at the same store as Ian Pace's recording of Finnissy's History of Photography in Sound.

[djealnla]

They carry it at the same store as Ian Pace's recording of Finnissy's History of Photography in Sound.

Notwithstanding who "they" might be, are you saying you highly doubt either recording will ever get released?

[ahinton]

Um... sorry for bumping, but what happened to Tellef Johnson's recording of this piece? Will it ever get released?

I can tell you only that I have received not one word of news on this since last I posted on it and that was, of course, quite some time ago.

Best,

Alistair

[minor9th]

Um... sorry for bumping, but what happened to Tellef Johnson's recording of this piece? Will it ever get released?

I emailed him several months ago to ask about updates--he quickly replied that there would be news soon...to date, nothing.   

[indutrial]

Notwithstanding who "they" might be, are you saying you highly doubt either recording will ever get released?

Quite rightly so. I honestly hope that these pieces see some sort of release in the next 10 years, along with other gargantuan works like Rzewski's The Road and Sorabji's Sequentia con cyclia (ostensibly by our friend Mr. Powell), but I feel like the market for compact discs (and certainly sets of compact discs with lengthy booklets and deluxe packaging) has all but completely fallen apart and ceased to be cost-effective for the companies that used to release these kinds of things.

[djealnla]

Sorabji's Sequentia con cyclia

Sequentia Cyclica, surely?

I feel like the market for compact discs (and certainly sets of compact discs with lengthy booklets and deluxe packaging) has all but completely fallen apart and ceased to be cost-effective for the companies that used to release these kinds of things.

Definitely in the case of lesser known composers. Let's not forget that Solti's recording of Wagner's Ring cycle with the VPO is allegedly the most sold classical music recording in history.

[ahinton]

Sequentia Cyclica, surely?

Of course - and it would indeed be Jonathan Powell, since he is the only pianist ever to have performed the work in its entirety (for those who do not already realise it, he premièred in in Glasgow last June) - but there are no plans for this just yet; I hope very much that he does get to record this mammoth work.

In the meantime, mindful of Donna Amato's recently released world première recording of Sorabji's Piano Symphony No. 5, it might not be a bad idea to look back at what - and indeed how much - has occurred in the past 30 years since the first commercial recording of Sorabji was released; just consider the extent of the discography and the score editions (details at www.sorabji-archive.co.uk)! Of course there's a long way to go, but the current situation is surely far more positive in outlook than it ever was during most of Sorabji's composing career.

As to Piano Sonata No. 5, there is at least a splendid typeset edition!

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

Of course - and it would indeed be Jonathan Powell, since he is the only pianist ever to have performed the work in its entirety (for those who do not already realise it, he premièred in in Glasgow last June) - but there are no plans for this just yet; I hope very much that he does get to record this mammoth work.

In the meantime, mindful of Donna Amato's recently released world première recording of Sorabji's Piano Symphony No. 5, it might not be a bad idea to look back at what - and indeed how much - has occurred in the past 30 years since the first commercial recording of Sorabji was released; just consider the extent of the discography and the score editions (details at www.sorabji-archive.co.uk)! Of course there's a long way to go, but the current situation is surely far more positive in outlook than it ever was during most of Sorabji's composing career.

As to Piano Sonata No. 5, there is at least a splendid typeset edition!

Best,

Alistair

If Tellef Johnson's recording goes into the abyss, are there any chances for a recording by Powell? Has he expressed any interest in the work?

[gep]

Since I too am quite interested to hear what Opus Arch may be when released by TJ, and indeed if it will be released, I emailed him yesterday, and I will take the liberty of copying here parts of his response, which I think may be of interest to those, well, interested.

I've received a few emails about Opus Arch so I'm just replying to them with the same response in haste.

Please encourage anyone who has any interest in the project to join the mailing list at www.opusarchimagicum.com; this is the way I can gauge how much interest is out there for such a massive and specialty project. I have been impressed what a diverse group of people are now part of the project's support base. It's a great group of people, and although I haven't been able to update things as regularly as I hoped for everyone, we're just three or four people shy of completing the number of folks on the mailing list that tells me it's time to go to the next phase.
The next phase involves preparing the finished work for international release/distribution, and does not just entail Opus Archimagicum but many other Sorabji-related things, so you can understand what a massive and completist type of project this is and has been for me. Sonata III is included as are other works that I have recorded live and there are also some big surprises that will definitely be worth the wait.

Right now I'm finishing a film project that makes Opus Archimagicum look tiny in scale, so I trust you'll bear with me to finish that and then sit down, see where we are with the overall landscape of things, and then set an official release date and launch the final promotional push which will involve a bunch of new HD performances of KSS's work on www.vimeo.com.

So, the best advice would be: join the mailing list, and have some more patience. After all, Opus Arch has been waiting 80 years now, so one might give it a bit more time...

all best,
gep

[indutrial]

Sequentia Cyclica, surely?

Yes

Definitely in the case of lesser known composers. Let's not forget that Solti's recording of Wagner's Ring cycle with the VPO is allegedly the most sold classical music recording in history.

In the jazz CD world, larger and larger projects have benefited from seeing MP3-only releases or other cost-effective approaches (such as putting a large-scale recording on a single DVD as lossless audio). In the classical world, I've only seen this done once, with Morton Feldman's long-ish 2nd string quartet, but it would definitely be a cheaper and easier way to put out something like the Opus Archimagicum.

[djealnla]

Since I too am quite interested to hear what Opus Arch may be when released by TJ, and indeed if it will be released, I emailed him yesterday, and I will take the liberty of copying here parts of his response, which I think may be of interest to those, well, interested.

I've received a few emails about Opus Arch so I'm just replying to them with the same response in haste.

Please encourage anyone who has any interest in the project to join the mailing list at www.opusarchimagicum.com; this is the way I can gauge how much interest is out there for such a massive and specialty project. I have been impressed what a diverse group of people are now part of the project's support base. It's a great group of people, and although I haven't been able to update things as regularly as I hoped for everyone, we're just three or four people shy of completing the number of folks on the mailing list that tells me it's time to go to the next phase.
The next phase involves preparing the finished work for international release/distribution, and does not just entail Opus Archimagicum but many other Sorabji-related things, so you can understand what a massive and completist type of project this is and has been for me. Sonata III is included as are other works that I have recorded live and there are also some big surprises that will definitely be worth the wait.

Right now I'm finishing a film project that makes Opus Archimagicum look tiny in scale, so I trust you'll bear with me to finish that and then sit down, see where we are with the overall landscape of things, and then set an official release date and launch the final promotional push which will involve a bunch of new HD performances of KSS's work on www.vimeo.com.

So, the best advice would be: join the mailing list, and have some more patience. After all, Opus Arch has been waiting 80 years now, so one might give it a bit more time...

all best,
gep

That certainly sounds pretty awesome! Thanks for sharing that email.

[ahinton]

If Tellef Johnson's recording goes into the abyss, are there any chances for a recording by Powell? Has he expressed any interest in the work?

I'm sure that he would be interested in it, but he has other plans right now.

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

I'm sure that he would be interested in it, but he has other plans right now.

Are those plans in the public domain?

[ahinton]

Are those plans in the public domain?

Not just yet (unless, of course, he chooses to reveal them here of his own volition) - but watch this space!...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

The plot thickens, the suspense is killing me.

Better than anything Hitchcock could come up with.

Thal

[djealnla]

The plot thickens, the suspense is killing me.

Better than anything Hitchcock could come up with.

Hey, you can't blame Hitchcock for coming up with agressive birds instead of Sorabji's stinging insects. But at least we know for sure Hitchcock was not a Scriabin-wannabe.

[ahinton]

Hey, you can't blame Hitchcock for coming up with agressive birds instead of Sorabji's stinging insects. But at least we know for sure Hitchcock was not a Scriabin-wannabe.

In any case The Birds would surely be suggestive of Messiaen, not Sorabji - and I'm not sure if the insects that are connected with Scriabin's final sonata were the type to which Sorabji referred either.

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

Where is it?

[ahinton]

Where is it?

Where is what? If you still mean tht title of this thread, the ms. copies and typeset edition are each here at The Sorabji Archive but the recording is nowhere to be seen with no definitive news on its future appearance at this stage - but I thought that you knew that already.

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

Where is what? If you still mean tht title of this thread, the ms. copies and typeset edition are each here at The Sorabji Archive but the recording is nowhere to be seen with no definitive news on its future appearance at this stage - but I thought that you knew that already.

Best,

Alistair

Never mind; I have found evidence of a bright future:

[ahinton]

Never mind; I have found evidence of a bright future:

Well, I guess that, as long as this keeps you going until there is more of the kind of news for which you have been asking, then so be it.

Best,

Alistair

[lontano]

So, the best advice would be: join the mailing list, and have some more patience. After all, Opus Arch has been waiting 80 years now, so one might give it a bit more time...

all best,
gep

Just a slight correction: Opus Arch was composed in 1973 making it about 38 years old, not 80 years. This is mainly of interest to folks interested in comparing works from the various periods of the composers life.

L.

[ahinton]

Just a slight correction: Opus Arch was composed in 1973 making it about 38 years old, not 80 years. This is mainly of interest to folks interested in comparing works from the various periods of the composers life.

That is nonsense. Check the site at www.sorabji-archive.co.uk and you will see that gep is correct in the date that he cites for this work. In 1973, Sorabji was working on - and completing - his Piano Symphony No. 5 (check the recent recording by Donna Amato on Altarus). It is clear that you are confusing Sorabji's fifth piano sonata with his fifth piano symphony. Please check your facts before making "slight" corrections such as the one above (and, while you're about it, you might care to insert the missing apostrophe in "composer's").

Thank you.

Best,

Alistair

[pies]

lol sorabji

[djealnla]

lol sorabji

What happened? He told you a particularly good joke? In that case, your sentence is lacking a comma (among other things).

BTW, does anybody know where I can find the score? I couldn't find it anywhere.

[ahinton]

What happened? He told you a particularly good joke? In that case, your sentence is lacking a comma (among other things).

...such as veracity and credibility, at least to the extent thet Sorabji obviously never "told" pies anything at all...

BTW, does anybody know where I can find the score? I couldn't find it anywhere.

The score of what, exactly?

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

to the extent thet

 

The score of what, exactly?

Of the piece that Cimirro will soon release a recording of.

[ahinton]

Of the piece that Cimirro will soon release a recording of.

Well, I have no idea where anyone could possibly find that per se, since any attempt to do so would seem to be rather akin to trying to find (as Sorabji himself once quoted from Norman Douglas) "a needle in a haystack or a joke in the Bible"; having said that, you surely know well where to source both the ms. and the typeset edition of Opus Archimagicum?(!)...

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

you surely know well where to source both the ms. and the typeset edition of Opus Archimagicum?

I do. I have requested a copy of Cimirro's edition from Cimirro himself. For free.

[thalbergmad]

I have a feeling he has not done one, but I might be wrong.

Thal

[ahinton]

I do. I have requested a copy of Cimirro's edition from Cimirro himself. For free.

Well, yes, it will indeed be "free", largely for the reasons that Thal has rightly surmised above; that said, what I wrote was that I assumed that you knew already how to get hold of the piece either in ms. or typeset form, both of which are known to exist.

Best,

Alistair

[lontano]

That is nonsense. Check the site at www.sorabji-archive.co.uk and you will see that gep is correct in the date that he cites for this work. In 1973, Sorabji was working on - and completing - his Piano Symphony No. 5 (check the recent recording by Donna Amato on Altarus). It is clear that you are confusing Sorabji's fifth piano sonata with his fifth piano symphony. Please check your facts before making "slight" corrections such as the one above (and, while you're about it, you might care to insert the missing apostrophe in "composer's").

Alistair

My sincere apologies to Gep, Alistair and everyone else. I made an obvious error. I was involved in probing the depths of Piano Symphony #5 while attempting to get more info from Tellef regarding Opus Arch and the 2 pieces did get reversed in my feeble mind.

And just in case, for future's sake, here's an extra " ' " for the next time I make a typo of the "apostrophean" nature. 

My best to all,
Lontano

[steinway_d]

I've been waiting for
only 1 year and have no
patience!!!!

"So, the best advice would be: join the mailing list, and have some more patience. After all, Opus Arch has been waiting 80 years now, so one might give it a bit more time...

all best,
gep"

www.opusarchimagicum.com - "In late 2010"

(sigh)

[pies]

Any updates on this dumb thing?

[thalbergmad]

Due to intense boredom, all activities have probably ceased.

Thal

[ahinton]

Due to intense boredom, all activities have probably ceased.

If that is the case, the boredom would only be on the part of the one person who initiated the project...

Best,

Alistair

[fftransform]

Last time I asked him, I just got the sort of, "I'm busy, but I'll get around to it sometime," sort of deal.  I really don't think that the Opus Archimagicum is an on-again/off-again sort of piece, so I don't expect to hear it any time soon.

Can't really think of anyone else who might try to tackle it, either.  Maybe that Dutch guy; I don't follow him much.  Most of the top notch contemporary specialists don't like Sorabji (e.g. Damerini, Knoop, Pace, Nonken, etc.), and the ones who do all seem busy atm.  Powell still doing his OC tour and prep for a rec; can't see him dropping that for a new piece, much less one that's even scarier than OC.  Don't think Amato would be up for it.  Alistair, has Nic ever shown any interest in Sorabji?  Maybe Cimirro would be interested?  I don't know what Ullen is working on atm; I think he's been focusing on his neuroscience stuff, lately.

Tbh, I'm still more interested in hearing the 4th nocturne or Tantrik Symphony more than OA (can we start calling it that?).  Any interest on either of those pieces, recently?

[pies]

wut

[ahinton]

Last time I asked him, I just got the sort of, "I'm busy, but I'll get around to it sometime," sort of deal.  I really don't think that the Opus Archimagicum is an on-again/off-again sort of piece, so I don't expect to hear it any time soon.

Can't really think of anyone else who might try to tackle it, either.  Maybe that Dutch guy; I don't follow him much.  Most of the top notch contemporary specialists don't like Sorabji (e.g. Damerini, Knoop, Pace, Nonken, etc.), and the ones who do all seem busy atm.  Powell still doing his OC tour and prep for a rec; can't see him dropping that for a new piece, much less one that's even scarier than OC.  Don't think Amato would be up for it.  Alistair, has Nic ever shown any interest in Sorabji?  Maybe Cimirro would be interested?  I don't know what Ullen is working on atm; I think he's been focusing on his neuroscience stuff, lately.

Tbh, I'm still more interested in hearing the 4th nocturne or Tantrik Symphony more than OA (can we start calling it that?).  Any interest on either of those pieces, recently?

Sorry - I've only just seen this, otherwise I would have responded far sooner.

I have no idea what is supposed to be happening about the plans for OA which were put forward some time ago because I've heard no more from Tellef Johnson about this and nor has anyone else of whom I am aware.

Nic (by whom I assume you to mean Nic Hodges), as splendid a pianist as he is, ordered a couple of Sorabji pieces from me years ago but the fact that he's never performed any of the composer's work makes it pretty clear that this repertoire is not a part of his agenda. Ullén's ongoing 100TS project seems to have ground to a halt after the release of the first three CDs and I cannot imagine him having the time for OA anyway. Cimirro expressed an interest back in 2008 and promised to make an edition of it but, as this didn't ever happen and TJ was showing an interest in doing something about it, Alex Abercrombie made an edition instead. So, whatever the fate of this work my be, at least there is an excellent typeset edition of it.

Apologies once again for the delayed response.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Frist we have an OC, then an OA.

Are we going to get an OMG??

Thal

[thorn]

Frist we have an OC, then an OA.

Are we going to get an OMG??

Thal

I believe Rosemary Brown channelled a few pages of it before she died. Musical psychics around the world are currently attempting to contact Sorabji for the remainder.

[ahinton]

Frist we have an OC, then an OA.

Quite what five-sevenths of a Suffolk village has to do with this topic is even more unclear that what your oft-used term "plinky" has to do with music of questionable tonality or none at all...

Are we going to get an OMG??

Only if you provide one, I imagine.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I believe Rosemary Brown channelled a few pages of it before she died.

Then sadly your belief is misplaced, since (a) she had no access to its ms. (b) its typeset edition was not produced until long after her death and (c) she had no need to do anything about the work as it had already been completed by its composer at a time when she was a lass in her 'teens.

Musical psychics around the world are currently attempting to contact Sorabji for the remainder.

Are they really? Then you evidently know something that none of the rest of us does, especially given that there is no such "remainder" (see (c) above).

Best,

Alistair

[pies]

a