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No Great Music Without Great Tension

Anthony Tommassini, classical music critic for The New York Times, invites us all to a mini-lecture at the piano on dissonance. With a series of examples by well known composers, Tommassini elaborates on one of the most crucial components in Western music. Read more >>

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Author Topic: 2+3pt Inventions: how to teach them  (Read 74824 times)
chopinisque
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« Reply #50 on: April 02, 2005, 01:27:33 PM »

Help.  There is a motive in the Invention no. 1 that I can't get a good fingering for.  It's the one in LH bar 12 (the part with the LH retrograde+inversion run).  On the score, it is suggested 2123142 31234231.  I'm trying 2345342 12345342.  Both are uncomfortable.  Probably because of the need to cross the thumb under finger2 (2:Bb, 1:moving to A) across a black key.  Some other areas also feel akward.  The first limits exercise to 1234 and the latter uses the same fingers that the RH does.  Is there a more comfortable alternative? 

Thanks.
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Mad about Chopin.
BoliverAllmon
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« Reply #51 on: April 02, 2005, 02:36:48 PM »

Help.  There is a motive in the Invention no. 1 that I can't get a good fingering for.  It's the one in LH bar 12 (the part with the LH retrograde+inversion run).  On the score, it is suggested 2123142 31234231.  I'm trying 2345342 12345342.  Both are uncomfortable.  Probably because of the need to cross the thumb under finger2 (2:Bb, 1:moving to A) across a black key.  Some other areas also feel akward.  The first limits exercise to 1234 and the latter uses the same fingers that the RH does.  Is there a more comfortable alternative? 

Thanks.

this is what I have 21234231  21234231 see if that helps
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bernhard
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« Reply #52 on: April 02, 2005, 03:35:00 PM »

Help.  There is a motive in the Invention no. 1 that I can't get a good fingering for.  It's the one in LH bar 12 (the part with the LH retrograde+inversion run).  On the score, it is suggested 2123142 31234231.  I'm trying 2345342 12345342.  Both are uncomfortable.  Probably because of the need to cross the thumb under finger2 (2:Bb, 1:moving to A) across a black key.  Some other areas also feel akward.  The first limits exercise to 1234 and the latter uses the same fingers that the RH does.  Is there a more comfortable alternative? 

Thanks.

Try this:



Best wishes,
Bernhard.

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BoliverAllmon
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« Reply #53 on: April 02, 2005, 04:53:48 PM »

how do you create all these sheets?
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bernhard
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« Reply #54 on: April 02, 2005, 11:13:19 PM »

how do you create all these sheets?


1.   Write score in a notation software (Sibelius, Finale, etc. I use “Personal Composer”).
2.   Copy and paste into a “Paint” document as a JPEG file.
3.   Transfer the file to a “picture host” website (Tinypicture.com and Photobucket .com are free)
4.   Copy the URL onto your post like so: [img*]http://URL[/img].

(get rid of the *. I put it there so it would not convert it into image)

That is how I do it. Maybe there are simpler ways.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
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The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)
chopinisque
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« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2005, 04:00:05 AM »

Thanks.
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BoliverAllmon
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« Reply #56 on: April 03, 2005, 04:41:18 AM »




1.   Write score in a notation software (Sibelius, Finale, etc. I use “Personal Composer”).
2.   Copy and paste into a “Paint” document as a JPEG file.
3.   Transfer the file to a “picture host” website (Tinypicture.com and Photobucket .com are free)
4.   Copy the URL onto your post like so: [img*]http://URL[/img].

(get rid of the *. I put it there so it would not convert it into image)

That is how I do it. Maybe there are simpler ways.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

looks good to me. Thanks alot.
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josef
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« Reply #57 on: June 29, 2005, 02:20:50 PM »

Yes it is a good book - especially considering that it is probably the only one. However, it is very condensed, he writes about 5 pages per invention, and I wish he would have provided much more detail. It is a beginning though. Recommended, but not too enthusiastically. Wink

Best wishes,
Bernhard

There is a software, it is called J.S. Bach - Die Inventionen, Einführung und Analyse (which means "The Inventions, Introduction in Analysis), I have only the german version, I don't know if there are versions in other languages. This program explains very detailed how the 15 inventions are composed, how you analyse them, including scores and soundfiles (harpsichord).  For further information write an E-Mail: info@capella.de or J.Keitsch@capella.de


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yamaha
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« Reply #58 on: December 13, 2005, 06:27:27 PM »

Hi Bernhard,

thanks a lot for taking time to reply. I can for sure see the retrograde now. I guess what was confusing me all the time was the fact that this looks more like a retrograde of the inversion.

I am interested in the other inventions as well. Do you know if the book mentioned by one of the previous posters is any good?

An Analytical survey of the fifteen two-part inventions by JS Bach
By Theodore O. Johnson


Thanks for your help again.



I too was confused by this and the retro in bar 19!!  Embarrassed
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apocalypse92
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« Reply #59 on: November 09, 2010, 09:09:26 PM »

Bernhard, when you make your motif score, do you make separate copies for the inversions and retrogrades in the 3rd and 4th bars, or do you keep it as one continuous line?
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keyboardclass
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« Reply #60 on: November 10, 2010, 10:50:53 AM »

It doesn't look as if bernhard's with us any more.
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sashaco
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« Reply #61 on: November 16, 2010, 03:00:06 PM »

I believe someone wrote that Bernhard is still reading but not posting.

I think, apocalypse, that if you follow Bernhard's logic carefully, you will see that there would not be seperate versions.  His idea is that each step remains a permanent part of the final product.  Separate versions would not produce this result.  Note also that he asks the student to play while emphasizing motifs and then emphasizing inversions.  Two versions would not require that ability.
I could be wrong, of course, but that's my reading of the Bernhard approach.

If Bernhard IS reading these, I wonder if we could tempt him to comment on phrasing?  We hear many young people play the Inventions in a uniform legato.  I think this ignores the singing (and oratorical) nature of these pieces, as well as a key element in the hearing of the voices as entirely separate.  The other side of the argument might be, in looking at Bernhard's motific analysis of the 1st, that too distinct phrasing might eliminate some of the ambiguity in our hearing of overlapping versions of the motif.  Bernhard? Anyone?

Cheers, Sasha



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Mayla
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« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2011, 05:22:46 AM »

.
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes
mosis
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« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2011, 05:26:53 AM »

talk about bumping an ancient thread Wink

i still remember when this thread was fresh, and when bernhard was a regular here. have 7 years gone by already?  Shocked

i used to be very interested in Bach... not so much anymore. funny how things change!

what has inspired your recent interest in thinking in terms of modes vs changes of key, Mayla?
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Mayla
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« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2011, 06:17:16 AM »

.
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes
Mayla
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« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2011, 01:14:19 PM »

.     
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes
Mayla
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« Reply #66 on: October 26, 2011, 04:24:16 AM »

.
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes
megadodd
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« Reply #67 on: December 02, 2011, 12:37:18 PM »

For more details, we would have to discuss specific pieces.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.


Not quoting all you wrote, it was to brilliant to fit in my reply!
Thank you for this post, thank you.
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Repertoire.
2011/2012

Brahms op 118
Chopin Preludes op 28
Grieg Holberg Suite
Mendelssohn Piano trio D minor op 49
Rachmaninoff Etude Tabelaux op 33 no 3 & 4 op 39 no 2
Scriabin Preludes op 1
pianoplayjl
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« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2011, 11:50:18 AM »

The best technique I used was for 3 part inventions I played each voice separately for a few weeks before slowly putting 2 voices together then 3. While doing hands together practice I also did voices separate. Weird, but that worked out for me.

JL
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Funny? How? How am I funny?
illusion
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« Reply #69 on: August 04, 2017, 05:17:25 AM »

Brilliant info.. cheers, all
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j_tour
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« Reply #70 on: September 20, 2017, 01:42:12 AM »

The best technique I used was for 3 part inventions I played each voice separately for a few weeks before slowly putting 2 voices together then 3. While doing hands together practice I also did voices separate. Weird, but that worked out for me.

JL

Missed the "recent" revival of this thread, but I was going back to some Sinfonias I never was satisfied with, just as finger exercises, as well as good, bread-and-butter music to warm up, and possibly to have in memory to give an example to someone live. 

I did the D major 3-part last week doing exactly that -- each line WITH the exact fingering you choose for the final product.

And then I nicked an idea (new to me) from now-gone Bernhard, of optimizing learning by very methodically dividing the piece into short, non-sequential sections, doing each for a few minutes, going back to the computer to write code or read CompSci or Mathematics theory, then just repeating over and over.

Honestly, I found use, and still do, in individual voice work, but the most important to me is the methodical working on short fragments from various moments in the piece, HT in the 3-part. 

But the other technique I use for sight-reading fugues from the WTC sometimes is to go EXTREMELY slowly, with the fingering I chose -- way slower than even a rank beginner could play it from sight.  The intense focus and discipline helps the piece (usually all voices together, or maybe drop one voice if I haven't decided on a fingering) stick in my mind.  It's very tiring, but if nothing else, it's something to do to explore some unfamiliar music without any technical problems.
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