2+3pt Inventions: how to teach them

[chopinisque]

Help.  There is a motive in the Invention no. 1 that I can't get a good fingering for.  It's the one in LH bar 12 (the part with the LH retrograde+inversion run).  On the score, it is suggested 2123142 31234231.  I'm trying 2345342 12345342.  Both are uncomfortable.  Probably because of the need to cross the thumb under finger2 (2:Bb, 1:moving to A) across a black key.  Some other areas also feel akward.  The first limits exercise to 1234 and the latter uses the same fingers that the RH does.  Is there a more comfortable alternative? 

Thanks.

[BoliverAllmon]

Help.  There is a motive in the Invention no. 1 that I can't get a good fingering for.  It's the one in LH bar 12 (the part with the LH retrograde+inversion run).  On the score, it is suggested 2123142 31234231.  I'm trying 2345342 12345342.  Both are uncomfortable.  Probably because of the need to cross the thumb under finger2 (2:Bb, 1:moving to A) across a black key.  Some other areas also feel akward.  The first limits exercise to 1234 and the latter uses the same fingers that the RH does.  Is there a more comfortable alternative? 

Thanks.

this is what I have 21234231  21234231 see if that helps

[bernhard]

Help.  There is a motive in the Invention no. 1 that I can't get a good fingering for.  It's the one in LH bar 12 (the part with the LH retrograde+inversion run).  On the score, it is suggested 2123142 31234231.  I'm trying 2345342 12345342.  Both are uncomfortable.  Probably because of the need to cross the thumb under finger2 (2:Bb, 1:moving to A) across a black key.  Some other areas also feel akward.  The first limits exercise to 1234 and the latter uses the same fingers that the RH does.  Is there a more comfortable alternative? 

Thanks.

Try this:



Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[BoliverAllmon]

how do you create all these sheets?

[bernhard]

how do you create all these sheets?

1.   Write score in a notation software (Sibelius, Finale, etc. I use “Personal Composer”).
2.   Copy and paste into a “Paint” document as a JPEG file.
3.   Transfer the file to a “picture host” website (Tinypicture.com and Photobucket .com are free)
4.   Copy the URL onto your post like so: [img*]https://URL[/img].

(get rid of the *. I put it there so it would not convert it into image)

That is how I do it. Maybe there are simpler ways.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[chopinisque]

Thanks.

[BoliverAllmon]

1.   Write score in a notation software (Sibelius, Finale, etc. I use “Personal Composer”).
2.   Copy and paste into a “Paint” document as a JPEG file.
3.   Transfer the file to a “picture host” website (Tinypicture.com and Photobucket .com are free)
4.   Copy the URL onto your post like so: [img*]https://URL[/img].

(get rid of the *. I put it there so it would not convert it into image)

That is how I do it. Maybe there are simpler ways.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

looks good to me. Thanks alot.

[josef]

Yes it is a good book - especially considering that it is probably the only one. However, it is very condensed, he writes about 5 pages per invention, and I wish he would have provided much more detail. It is a beginning though. Recommended, but not too enthusiastically.

Best wishes,
Bernhard

There is a software, it is called J.S. Bach - Die Inventionen, Einführung und Analyse (which means "The Inventions, Introduction in Analysis), I have only the german version, I don't know if there are versions in other languages. This program explains very detailed how the 15 inventions are composed, how you analyse them, including scores and soundfiles (harpsichord).  For further information write an E-Mail: info@capella.de or J.Keitsch@capella.de

[yamaha]

Hi Bernhard,

thanks a lot for taking time to reply. I can for sure see the retrograde now. I guess what was confusing me all the time was the fact that this looks more like a retrograde of the inversion.

I am interested in the other inventions as well. Do you know if the book mentioned by one of the previous posters is any good?

An Analytical survey of the fifteen two-part inventions by JS Bach
By Theodore O. Johnson


Thanks for your help again.

I too was confused by this and the retro in bar 19!! 

[apocalypse92]

Bernhard, when you make your motif score, do you make separate copies for the inversions and retrogrades in the 3rd and 4th bars, or do you keep it as one continuous line?

[keyboardclass]

It doesn't look as if bernhard's with us any more.

[sashaco]

I believe someone wrote that Bernhard is still reading but not posting.

I think, apocalypse, that if you follow Bernhard's logic carefully, you will see that there would not be seperate versions.  His idea is that each step remains a permanent part of the final product.  Separate versions would not produce this result.  Note also that he asks the student to play while emphasizing motifs and then emphasizing inversions.  Two versions would not require that ability.
I could be wrong, of course, but that's my reading of the Bernhard approach.

If Bernhard IS reading these, I wonder if we could tempt him to comment on phrasing?  We hear many young people play the Inventions in a uniform legato.  I think this ignores the singing (and oratorical) nature of these pieces, as well as a key element in the hearing of the voices as entirely separate.  The other side of the argument might be, in looking at Bernhard's motific analysis of the 1st, that too distinct phrasing might eliminate some of the ambiguity in our hearing of overlapping versions of the motif.  Bernhard? Anyone?

Cheers, Sasha

[m1469]

No, it is not in G major, it is the myxolydian mode.

Okay, but why stop there with thinking in modes - does it?  Perhaps I am misunderstanding.  I start to think that Bach's musical understanding was all about modes and that the keyboard, to him, was almost nothing but a patchwork of modes.

[mosis]

talk about bumping an ancient thread

i still remember when this thread was fresh, and when bernhard was a regular here. have 7 years gone by already? 

i used to be very interested in Bach... not so much anymore. funny how things change!

what has inspired your recent interest in thinking in terms of modes vs changes of key, m1469?

[m1469]

what has inspired your recent interest in thinking in terms of modes vs changes of key, m1469

Well, me bringing it up is pretty recent, but I've almost always been pondering something I'm bringing up, or something related to it, for ages.  I actually recall, since you posted your question, somebody mentioning something about the idea of never changing keys, in response to an analysis thread of mine, years ago.  I've not been thinking about that precisely ever since, but perhaps there's something to it, afterall.

One of my main missions is almost always to be understanding my own child mind view of the piano, and then developing that or growing upon it (or recognizing when there's something about it which might be holding me back).  I believe what I'm studying now is related to how I used to think as a child, though what I am doing now is much more conscious and further developed.   Above all else though, I simply can't ignore it.    

[m1469]

Oh, and let me add that it's not that I don't believe in changes of tonal centers - this is in fact a great magic trick of modal thinking in general.  But, I currently feel it's a kind of illusion to think of that as modulation in a static way - the way that books tell us about it - and rather I think in terms of "classifications" of aural experiences within a very nice range of colorful possibilities as a background/context. But, the aural experience is/can be shifty, and Bach seems a master at this, which his works here exemplify.  I still have a much greater view to gain though.   Soon, I'll get out from under the cozy covers of my bed and get to work on another string of thinking.  1 down yesterday, not sure how many more to go!  I'll go step by step, nonetheless .      

[m1469]

Dear Bernhard,

I am also wondering a couple of more items.  It seems that the inventions are a kind of milestone on the repertoire that you have your students learning.  If that is so, I wonder if you feel there is anything that could compare or even replace them?  They must serve a rather specific purpose in your studio, and my guess is that it's not actually about Hanon, Czerny, or the Inventions instead.  But the last thing, I read a number of posts up that after a few months your students are playing them - is it possible that you might give a glimpse at what you consider to be prep work for them?  Just AMB?

Thank you .    

[megadodd]

For more details, we would have to discuss specific pieces.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Not quoting all you wrote, it was to brilliant to fit in my reply!
Thank you for this post, thank you.

[pianoplayjl]

The best technique I used was for 3 part inventions I played each voice separately for a few weeks before slowly putting 2 voices together then 3. While doing hands together practice I also did voices separate. Weird, but that worked out for me.

JL

[illusion]

Brilliant info.. cheers, all

[j_tour]

The best technique I used was for 3 part inventions I played each voice separately for a few weeks before slowly putting 2 voices together then 3. While doing hands together practice I also did voices separate. Weird, but that worked out for me.

JL

Missed the "recent" revival of this thread, but I was going back to some Sinfonias I never was satisfied with, just as finger exercises, as well as good, bread-and-butter music to warm up, and possibly to have in memory to give an example to someone live. 

I did the D major 3-part last week doing exactly that -- each line WITH the exact fingering you choose for the final product.

And then I nicked an idea (new to me) from now-gone Bernhard, of optimizing learning by very methodically dividing the piece into short, non-sequential sections, doing each for a few minutes, going back to the computer to write code or read CompSci or Mathematics theory, then just repeating over and over.

Honestly, I found use, and still do, in individual voice work, but the most important to me is the methodical working on short fragments from various moments in the piece, HT in the 3-part. 

But the other technique I use for sight-reading fugues from the WTC sometimes is to go EXTREMELY slowly, with the fingering I chose -- way slower than even a rank beginner could play it from sight.  The intense focus and discipline helps the piece (usually all voices together, or maybe drop one voice if I haven't decided on a fingering) stick in my mind.  It's very tiring, but if nothing else, it's something to do to explore some unfamiliar music without any technical problems.