Do you believe that anyone can learn to play well ?

[m1469]

Provided they are good listeners, follow directions and practice efficiently and consistently.

Please share your thoughts, and if you do not believe it's so (that anybody can learn to play well), please feel free to explain why.


Thanks,
m1469 

[gyzzzmo]

Well, your 'provided that'-list contradicts the statement already that anyone can learn playing well, because few people are provided with all those things. And exactly those few people are the potential good pianists..

[chopinfan_22]

The only way they could not learn to play well is if they didn't do the things you suggest. So in answer to your question... No. There is no reason.

[thalberg]

I have had students that are good at lots of things but justs can't get the hang of piano.  They are rare, but they exist.  I'd say they make up 2% of students in my experience.

[m1469]

Well, your 'provided that'-list contradicts the statement already that anyone can learn playing well, because few people are provided with all those things. And exactly those few people are the potential good pianists..

Well, I understand, but whether or not very many people actually possess these "provideds" is not really the point, though.   I am just thinking ... maybe this idea of "talent" is not at all what it seems  .  It just seems to me like anybody in " normal" physical condition (as in has all fingers and full use of arms, etc) can learn to play as well as they want if they possess the "provideds" I listed above.  They don't need to be some kind of genius, they don't need to have started lessons from the time they were born, they don't need to be "talented" in some special way as though their physique is just better built for piano than anybody else's ... they just need to listen and be willing to follow directions.  Perhaps ?

[thalberg]

Well m1469,

Abby Whiteside -- famous piano pedagogy author -- asked the same question you are asking.  In exploring that question to its depths, she figured out a lot of things that so-called "untalented" students were lacking.  And she discovered that some of those things could be taught.  Perhaps you should read her books. 

[leahcim]

Please share your thoughts, and if you do not believe it's so (that anybody can learn to play well), please feel free to explain why.

Can anyone learn? No, and the failure rate is much, much higher than 2%.

It's more likely the reverse - that 2% can learn [although I would suggest if you put some arbitrary measure like 'reaching abrsm grade x' on it, then it'll probably be a bit higher than that]

Why? The evidence is overwhelming. For myself, the number of computing lessons I had? None. I've just sat in front of a computer for years 'practising' if you will. My son learned to talk because we spoke to him, he "learned" to read, years before school, because we talked to him and pointed at the words we were saying.

There was no great magic method or process to learning it. If you want to climb mountains then climb mountains. If you want to run 100m fast then keep running 100m fast. Of course, it makes sense to start with small mountains.

But if you've done it for years and still can't. Sell your gear

Although your piano player is going to benefit from good ears that's not for listening to a teacher. Teaching is just the icing on the cake - the bit after you can play when someone can sit down next to you and [try to] give you taste, like Lang, Lang being taught here :-

People that can play don't need it per se [obviously they need to get information from somewhere, and things like theory and learning to read music etc are required] but 99% of learning to play music, whatever genre and/or however difficult the particular pieces are, is spending time sitting in front of the piano and playing notes - i.e if you want to play fur elise, play fur elise, if you want to play hanon exercise 1, play it. And so on. At this point far more fail than succeed, but that's life.

If you think you can change that, go for it.

But, see my post to you about reading between Bernhard's lines here https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2260.msg119226.html#msg119226 [how his piano method, fees and choice of students just, imo, effectively cherry picked students that were likely to succeed and learn]

[pianowolfi]

My son learned to talk because we spoke to him, he "learned" to read, years before school, because we talked to him and pointed at the words we were saying.

There was no great magic method or process to learning it.

That IS the magic method and process to me. If I could teach as well as "life" or "nature" teaches us talking....hmmm

My aim as a teacher is, of course, to help any of my students to play well. From the first lesson they can play well, imo. If I guide them right.

Edit: This may have caused a misunderstanding. I am not claiming that *my* students all play well from the beginning. I mean, that this ability to play well is there in every person and that I aim to bring it out from the first lesson

[leonidas]

good listeners

In the musical sense, being able to attentively absorb music from listening to at least a moderate level. With this fair level of cognitive musical functionality assumed, I think anyone without serious physical impairment can play acceptably.

If playing 'well' requires that extra bit of creativity on top of that, I'd say it becomes increasingly difficult to tell, especially with any kind of objectivity.


The one thing you said though, learning to play as well as they want...how well do people want to play?
The greatest pianists never learn to play as well as they want.
More often it isn't a creative barrier in the imagination, some things that we want to do are beyond what the human body is capable of. Doesn't stop them from trying though.

[counterpoint]

From the first lesson they can play well, imo. If I guide them right.

Are you serious?

We, that play for 20, 30, 40 years and work hard for hours every day, because we think, we do not play well - what is about us ? 

[pianowolfi]

Are you serious?

We, that play for 20, 30, 40 years and work hard for hours every day, because we think, we do not play well - what is about us ? 

(Edit:

My aim as a teacher is, of course, to help any of my students to play well. From the first lesson they can play well, imo. If I guide them right.

This may have caused a misunderstanding. I am not claiming that *my* students all play well from the beginning. I mean, that this ability to play well is there in every person and that I aim to bring it out from the first lesson)

Yes I'm serious. I am working really hard when I teach and a quite important part of this work is to communicate to my students that they make music, from the first time they touch a key. My aim is to give them the feeling that they have a full musical experience from the beginning. I don't want them to feel like they have to work for hours every day for years and decades as a *preparation* for a prospective future musical experience. I want that they work for hours and years because they *love* it. I am trying to *not* make them feel like you say. If we "work hard for 30 - 40 years because we think we don't play well" ...sigh
what a tragedy. I am refusing to be a part of such a concept. It is what I have been suggested for many years since I first thought of making music an occupation. This concept has made me sick and frustrated and has also damaged my pianistic potential to quite an extent, to the point of being completely blocked for years. And I want my students to feel better than this.

[counterpoint]

This concept has made me sick and frustrated and has also damaged my pianistic potential to quite an extent, to the point of being completely blocked for years. And I want my students to feel better than this.

So you changed the meaning of "playing well"? Or what did you change?

[pianowolfi]

So you changed the meaning of "playing well"? Or what did you change?

You can play well or badly at any level.

[leahcim]

Yes I'm serious. I am working really hard when I teach and a quite important part of this work is to communicate to my students that they make music, from the first time they touch a key.

In what way? I mean, on the face of it, it doesn't seem a lot of hard work to communicate "make music the first time you touch a key" does it? You can just say it. It obviously won't happen in a lot of cases [I've not made music after 5 years], which is perhaps the surprising thing in what you say - a lot of us who are learning the piano, as cp said, aren't playing well after years, and certainly didn't play well after pressing one key for the first time.

So what exactly do you do to communicate [that's the 'working really hard' part, so it can't be simply talking] and which creates folk who can play well from the get go?

[counterpoint]

You can play well or badly at any level.

Okay, I want to play well. What am I supposed to do?

Am I right that you don't talk of the Birkenbihl method 

[pianowolfi]

In what way? I mean, on the face of it, it doesn't seem a lot of hard work to communicate "make music the first time you touch a key" does it? You can just say it.

Sure. I can just say it. Does that help anything? To say this with the purpose to communicate with the musician in a person does not make a lot of sense to me. It premises familiarity with the concepts of "music" "touch" "key" "first time" "make". All these concepts are different for every student. Plus, this sentence, as you wrote it above, has the form of a  command. I don't think that commands that require a lot of concepts (which are yet to develop during the lessons) work very well. To figure out the way *how* you say *what* and *how* you demonstrate something does reqire a lot of thinking, experience, intuition (since it needs a different approach for every student), psychology and quite an amount of wordless communication skills.

It obviously won't happen in a lot of cases [I've not made music after 5 years], which is perhaps the surprising thing in what you say - a lot of us who are learning the piano, as cp said, aren't playing well after years, and certainly didn't play well after pressing one key for the first time.

Well of course at this point it would be interesting to debate about what you consider as "playing well". Playing hard pieces? Playing as many notes as possible in the shortest timespan? Having a beautiful tone?
To me it has a lot to do with a persons expressivity. Why do we want to learn an instrument? To express something that lives within ourselves and could not be expressed without that instrument. So one of the main criteria of "teaching someone to play well" lays in the question if we, the student and I, are able to develop this possibility to express him/herself through the instrument. As soon as a student plays out of his specific expressive intentions it starts to get musically interesting to me. And I try to teach this as well as I can, from the very beginning. My goal at student's concerts is that someone who comes as a listener can really leave the concert refreshed, inspired, perhaps whistling a cute melody that s/he has heard. I have heard so many student's recitals that were just painful to listen to, at any level. And I have heard some student's recitals where young kids played beautiful, simple melodies which made me smile, think, dream, laugh, almost cry, and more. Inspiring concerts.

So what exactly do you do to communicate [that's the 'working really hard' part, so it can't be simply talking] and which creates folk who can play well from the get go?

I didn't claim that I am always already living up to my aim, mind you

You are welcome to sit in in one of my lessons

[pianowolfi]

Okay, I want to play well. What am I supposed to do?

Do exactly what you do now. As far as I have heard you play you play well   you said

because we think, we do not play well -

That makes quite a difference.

Am I right that you don't talk of the Birkenbihl method 

I have no clue what method that is. I will look it up.

[counterpoint]

Do exactly what you do now. As far as I have heard you play you play well  

That was my question. What is the meaning of "playing well"?

There's often a big gap between how I play and how I want to play.

And the awareness of this gap is the main motivation for me to practise as hard as I do. (Hard not in the meaning of annoying, but in the meaning of intense).

I have no clue what method that is. I will look it up.

I don't know the method either 

[leahcim]

You are welcome to sit in in one of my lessons

Well, if it were possible I would. Thanks all the same.

But, I was as sceptical as CP seemed to be, but I thought I'd just ask you a question rather than say 'Yeah, sure you do...'

Your reply is just 'come to my lesson' - ok, but is it that difficult to put into words?

I was saying more or less 'you can't simply tell them, so what do you do?' and you wrote lots of stuff once again saying what you wanted to communicate to your students.

But, once again, presumably you still don't simply state "I'd like you to express emotion' either - because that would be easy and not hard work.

You didn't give anything specific about how you might do it though. What this 'hard work' actually is and how what you do gets students 'playing well' whilst the rest of us flounder [and don't worry about what I mean by 'playing well' - presumably when you wrote it you meant something by it. Use your definition]

Perhaps you can see where the scepticism came from? Because it sounded too good to be true.

[pianowolfi]

Well, if it were possible I would. Thanks all the same.

But, I was as sceptical as CP seemed to be, but I thought I'd just ask you a question rather than say 'Yeah, sure you do...'

Your reply is just 'come to my lesson' - ok, but is it that difficult to put into words?

I was saying more or less 'you can't simply tell them, so what do you do?' and you wrote lots of stuff once again saying what you wanted to communicate to your students.

But, once again, presumably you still don't simply state "I'd like you to express emotion' either - because that would be easy and not hard work.

You didn't give anything specific about how you might do it though. What this 'hard work' actually is and how what you do gets students 'playing well' whilst the rest of us flounder [and don't worry about what I mean by 'playing well' - presumably when you wrote it you meant something by it. Use your definition]

Perhaps you can see where the scepticism came from? Because it sounded too good to be true.

Okay let me recapitulate. m1469's initial question was "Do you believe that anyone can learn to play well?"

You, leahcim, say: "Can anyone learn? No, and the failure rate is much, much higher than 2%."

I answer: Yes in principle anyone can learn to play well, provided a normally functioning apparatus plus  "Provided they are good listeners, follow directions and practice efficiently and consistently."

My answer to this is: Anyone can learn. Anyone. Persons that don't learn piano (or any other particular subject)  just have made the decision to not learn piano (etc.) because of various reasons like having other priorities, don't feel like (anymore) etc.
My aim as a teacher is: IF somebody has made the choice to learn piano (to some extent maybe) I want to be ready for this person. I want to provide and help this person to learn what s/he wants to learn. It's my job. It's what I live for (partly, because I have also other goals) and from. IF this person really has the above mentioned intentions (because I call them intentions rather than skills) and has made the decision to learn piano (for a while perhaps) I want badly to be able to provide a musical experience that starts at the first lesson. That was my point.
To claim that I said I would get "students 'playing well' whilst the rest of us flounder" is just not fair. I never said or implied something like that.

[timothy42b]

My answer to this is: Anyone can learn. Anyone. Persons that don't learn piano (or any other particular subject)  just have made the decision to not learn piano (etc.) because of various reasons like having other priorities, don't feel like (anymore) etc.

It seems to me there is a catch 22 here in this logic.

If we accept the premise that anyone can learn to play well, we must also account for the observation that most people don't.  (And of course, also account for the fact that some people DO.)

While pianowolfi's answer is one possible reason, there isn't any evidence yet that it is the main reason.  I would hesitate to accept it blindly because it tends to be self serving:  student fails because student is at fault.  Though it may be correct in many cases. 

If the percentage of students who fail is as large as leahcim thinks, then one has to wonder if there is something wrong with the teaching approach, because these same students do in fact learn other things well. 

It may be partly a definition problem.  Do most people learn math well?  Yes, in the sense that anyone who takes math at high school level and does the homework passes with a good grade.  Perhaps no if you expected them to solve a word problem a couple years later.  (Train A leaves the station at 0600 traveling 45 kph, train B........) 

It seems to me that the number of people who take lessons for years but don't claim to "play piano" is quite large.  If that were not true I would not have to play in church nearly as often! 

[leahcim]

My answer to this is: Anyone can learn. Anyone. Persons that don't learn piano (or any other particular subject)  just have made the decision to not learn piano (etc.) because of various reasons like having other priorities, don't feel like (anymore) etc.

Erm, read my post again, supposing that I'm talking as much from my own experience, after spending years trying and failing to play. I certainly haven't made this decision you speak of and I play for hours and hours.

I have no other priorities. My playing is sh*t regardless. I mean completely and fundamentally crap.

Yes - precisely the level of ability where you start making the excuses 'different priorities' 'perhaps something is physically wrong with you' [which is true only in the sense that playing the piano injures me] 'you obviously don't practise' - the usual kind of crap that's often true, but I submit is just as often not and used by teachers to get around the fact that, in truth, some people play, far more don't and practially no teachers have any idea as to why that is the case [generally or with their own students]

If these people can learn piano, then here I am - but it hasn't happened yet. If not, then I submit what you say is wildly inaccurate. Hence my pressing you, it's not to catch you out.

I was hoping you did get your students to play well while the rest of us floundered, because I'm at the floundering stage. It was hope you'd have something to say as to why you can do something that the rest of the planet's teachers apparantly cannot. Not criticism of what you did say.

[leahcim]

If the percentage of students who fail is as large as leahcim thinks, then one has to wonder if there is something wrong with the teaching approach, because these same students do in fact learn other things well. 

I base it on, as you can see from my other posts, own miserable failure.

Secondly, I base it on the fact that, I've never known anyone who can play the piano from my circle of friends / family /  school / work over 30 odd years up to today from my son's school friends and so on -  beyond playing chopsticks and a few poor bars from the intro to various pieces.

The thing is, lots of them have tried. Most have got nowhere and given up.

A few can, even after years of lessons, still only knock out a few tunes - and even then, not very skilfully or musically.

Most of them, this is my key point, have no idea about methods / special movements or anything else that might have made the difference. Nearly every one will say they "just played" and look blank at the idea that there might have been some technique or way of playing they could have learnt to improve their playing.

In that sense I'd liken it to drawing not math. Seemingly, when I was at school, people could either draw or not. The ones that could had few ideas about how they do it and how others that can't might - believe me I asked them When I failed miserably to draw and I was a kid,  I was dismissed with typical arguments aimed at kids - that I wasn't talented / patient / old enough and whatever else or that I needed to practise. Supposedly that, if I drew completely the wrong lines for long enough eventually the right ones would appear instead. Worse, for a drawing that was completely rubbish you were told it wasn't, as though not only couldn't you draw but they thought you were too stupid to be able to see it as well.

Books on teaching art or drawing tended to focus on specific things, usually for people who can draw [or who couldn't and still did art regardless] like perspective or drawing figures and not on that thing that those of us who can't draw struggle with - how to draw!

Other art books farted on about how it's not how accurate it is and blah blah blah, anyone whose drawing is sh*t must share the frustration when their art teacher told them it didn't matter and that it was about what their drawing said. Obviously we wanted to learn to draw first and then crap on a broken window and call it art later - the truth is, imo, the teacher had nothing to offer, no idea what to say to improve our drawing.

These days, some modern art books believe they can teach folk how to draw though. As though there is some process you can follow and skills you can pick up that will turn you from a childish scribbler [of whatever age] into someone who can draw. Not an artist, but someone who can draw. Yes, you need to practise, but not in the arbitrary 'keep trying' way that adults dismiss their kids questions with.

That's a better analogy IMO than learning maths is for piano.

Can anyone teach someone to play the piano, not necessarily to be a pianist / musician in the fullest sense, but to be able to play the piano in the same way that they claim to be able to teach people to draw. That's something a musician has to be able to do, and it's the stumbling block for most people that can't play ime.

I'd say no, at least at present, no one has demonstrated to me that they have a method / book / way of teaching one on one or whatever that teaches how to physically play the piano to someone who can't.

[timothy42b]

Can anyone teach someone to play the piano, not necessarily to be a pianist / musician in the fullest sense, but to be able to play the piano in the same way that they claim to be able to teach people to draw. That's something a musician has to be able to do, and it's the stumbling block for most people that can't play ime.

I think that I could teach anyone of average coordination to play trombone, trumpet, or saxophone well enough to play in a community band or perform in a dance band.  I'm not talking conservatory or symphony class, or advanced jazz improvisation, but decent tone, sufficient technical facility, and ensemble skills.

I have seen a number of adult beginners succeed in this.  I have also seen some spectacular failures, and unfortunately they do not quit but remain in our church choir forever.  But I digress <g>.   

I don't see any theoretical reason why piano would be different.  However piano is played mostly alone, and often unconnected with time, and I suspect those two reasons have a lot to do with many if not most failures. 

[Derek]

Of course anyone can learn to play well. With the exception of people with retarded mental ability to retain information or use motor skills well, anyone can. It is totally a matter of whether the student internally really wants to, though.

I speak from personal experience. When I first had piano lessons, it made no sense to me. The piano looked like a forest of black and white keys. The teacher said I wasn't ready for the moonlight sonata. I didn't understand what a "key" was, despite the teacher's many efforts to explain it to me.  I hated playing the retarded little kids pieces she started me out with.

Later on, I had some guitar lessons and the guy gave me a sheet of whole and half tone patterns for major and minor scales. I was like "hey, I know what whole and half tones are on the piano" and I just started making stuff up.  Being the sort of person I am, one who is solely motivated by internal desires to do something, I took to the piano like crazy. Now it is the most important hobby in my life.

Perhaps regular disciplined piano lessons just don't cut it for some individuals. That teacher even discouraged me when I asked her if she could teach me to play my own dark piano music. Isn't that a shame? Sometimes I feel like there are hundreds of thousands of students out there who WOULD like playing piano if their stagnant piano teachers didn't crush it out of them at an early age, making them feel as though their teacher were the be all and end all of rights and wrongs, which would stay with them into their adulthood where they constantly admonish themselves for playing a wrong note. Oh what horror. A wrong note (note that this generalization does not apply to me, due to my having taken a very different and unconventional path in classical piano playing) 

[pianowolfi]

Erm, read my post again, supposing that I'm talking as much from my own experience, after spending years trying and failing to play. I certainly haven't made this decision you speak of and I play for hours and hours.

I have no other priorities. My playing is sh*t regardless. I mean completely and fundamentally crap.

Yes - precisely the level of ability where you start making the excuses 'different priorities' 'perhaps something is physically wrong with you' [which is true only in the sense that playing the piano injures me] 'you obviously don't practise' - the usual kind of crap that's often true, but I submit is just as often not and used by teachers to get around the fact that, in truth, some people play, far more don't and practially no teachers have any idea as to why that is the case [generally or with their own students]

If these people can learn piano, then here I am - but it hasn't happened yet. If not, then I submit what you say is wildly inaccurate. Hence my pressing you, it's not to catch you out.

I was hoping you did get your students to play well while the rest of us floundered, because I'm at the floundering stage. It was hope you'd have something to say as to why you can do something that the rest of the planet's teachers apparantly cannot. Not criticism of what you did say.

Okay, now I see more of where you are coming from. But still, my point was not to claim that "I can do this", I said it's my aim. And of course as well as there are people  like you out there who flounder at playing there are people like me who floundered at teaching for quite a while .

 You can be sure that if it's true what you say about your playing and you would have been my student I of course would have transferred you to a teacher who can help you better than me.

Anyway, I think there is nothing wrong with you, so you can learn to play well. If piano playing injures you, then obviously you play with a wrong technique. And unfortunately you seem to have not yet found a teacher that fits you well and can teach you a better technique. It's impossible to say from the distance why your playing is crap. Have you posted any recording?

There would be a LOT to say about what problems I had as a teacher and why I came to the conclusions I posted above. Mainly it has to do with the fact that I mostly work with "average" kids. And for years it was just my main issue to learn to get *somehow* a sort of control over them and make them play instead of just messing around and do what they want.  I really can't remember having ever actually had a student like you who plays for hours a day and still plays crappy after years. I wonder what's going on there. You make me really curious to hearing you play

[leahcim]

That teacher even discouraged me when I asked her if she could teach me to play my own dark piano music. Isn't that a shame? Sometimes I feel like there are hundreds of thousands of students out there who WOULD like playing piano if their stagnant piano teachers didn't crush it out of them at an early age

Right. but to be fair to these teachers, your first paragraph concludes that I'm either retarded or a cripple

[leahcim]

It's impossible to say from the distance why your playing is crap. Have you posted any recording?

Indeed it is, and I appreciate that. I haven't posted a recording because someone who can't play the piano sounds pretty much like anyone who can't. There are no surprises in store. This isn't "at 1:30 your left hand is a bit loud" - this is cannot play at all, it just sounds crap from start to finish in every respect, except perhaps the notes are usually at the correct pitch.

"pieces" means the first 8 or so bars anyway, because I don't see the point learning the rest until I can play the first 8 of something, or more often these days just scales, thirds and octaves and little snippets and so on.

Just imagine completely sloppy and inconsistent rhythm and pulse, pain in right arm, completely sloppy and inconsistent dynamics. Whether I'm playing a piece out of a noddy kids book like a nursery rhyme  or a grade 6 piece.

The fundamental problem is, after reading / watching / trying I've reached the stage where I have no idea how to play a single solitary note. What to move - arm, wrist, finger, leg or at which joint. What not to move. And so on. If you read this forum, in summary, one person says "balance" another says "play it like throwing a stone" another says "arm weight" another says "build strength" another talks about arches, yet another suggests that you should just "imagine what you want to hear and play" - which actually works in a sense, I hear what I imagine I'm playing, but in reality that's all that happens, I hear the imagined sound, the real sound [as a recording shows] is usually worse than ever.

I think you need to be a really good pianist before you can actually get out of the piano what you're imagining you are getting with this method [but I imagine that the belief it works explains a lot of poor performances from otherwise good pianists] - on the up side, I can imagine drums and other instruments...

Nevertheless, I give them a try...and the more I try, the more and more depressed I get with it all. I've tried completely off the wall things too, I packed in smoking, stopped drinking caffeine, started walking / cycling. All in the hope that, even if there are plenty of pipe smoking, coffee drinking couch potato pianists around, if it can hinder to any degree I've removed it as an issue.

It's just completely bewildering. As I said higher in the thread I don't know anyone who can play locally to get a demonstration from. Those that have played have no idea about movements or technique either. Each one says "I just played - my teacher never said anything about movements or technique" but none of them got anywhere either, even the ones that passed a few grades didn't learn to play the piano. That's a lot of retards if Derek's right.

As you note, my arm says my technique is wrong. That could explain a lot about why it sounds bad too. I hope so, because that gives me something to aim at - trying to play without pain.

But, for that goal, I probably won't find a teacher in the UK to help. Why? Well, there was a girl on the TV the other day at some Royal Academy, on a Channel 4 series looking at kids with high IQs, and she had got tendinitis [and thus all the clips in the show had her playing noddy pieces]. So, if a prodigy in the UK attending the Royal Academy doesn't have a teacher to help her to play without getting injured, how will I?

Clearly piano playing has all but left the building here, at least for those of us without a natural ability to play without pain.

So I figure I'm on my own anyway, and I'm looking for that book, video or forum post that actually does explain what to do - there are plenty that have tried to explain, and more that have just talked around the subject, and perhaps some of these have helped others, but I've not found the answer yet.

You make me really curious to hearing you play

Well, as I say, I doubt you'll hear anything that you won't have heard before. You certainly can't hear pain nor hear the cause of sloppy playing.

OTOH, there is a certain value of "curiosity" that means "I don't think you're as bad as you say" - and I do note a tendency from people that can play to state the opposite. Rest assured I am not being modest.

[richy321]

I hope my experience will be helpful to Leachim and Tim and others who have struggled to play well for years and feel quite discouraged.

I took piano lessons from the age of 11 off and on through high school.  I was always self-motivated and did not find practicing a chore.  The most advanced piece I played (not really well) was Beethovens's Pathetique Sonata.  I realized that my technique was poor and that my teachers were of very little help.  They basically told me which piece to play next, never how to surmount technical hurdles.  After high school and for the next 50 years I was too preoccupied with college and career to pursue the piano until retirement loomed and I got interested again.  I also picked up books by Whiteside, Sandor, Fink, Bernstein and others and became obsessed with the idea of working on my technique armed with all these theories and methods.  I had no thought of going to a teacher due to the bad taste left by my teachers in my teens.  I figured that I was analytical and intelligent enough to do it by myself.  In particular, I was enthused over Abby Whiteside's idea that the main impetus for playing must come from the upper arm (shoulder muscles) and not the fingers.  I confidently took on the Chopin Etudes, especially the C major, C minor and A minor -- the really big guns.  I was sailing along quite nicely when I crashed and burned on the C major:  I tore my rotator cuff badly and needed surgery.  It was only then, unable to play at all, that I was forced to seek out a teacher.  Not any teacher, mind you, but one skilled in injury avoidance and rebuilding of technique from the ground up.  The first three months I did not play a single note or phrase except incidentally to basic movements.  I was surprised at how important the sense of touch between the teacher and pupil was in the teaching process.  The teacher was constantly touching the various parts of the apparatus to test for tension or guide and stimulate correct movement.  I was also surprised to learn how tensed up my body was and had been all my life.  To my surprise and without being aware of any effort,  these problems of tension were overcome and this had an immediate effect on my playing, especially my sensitivity to touch. (I had almost come to the conclusion that my sense of touch had been permanently lost due to playing on a digital keyboard for years, but that is another story.)  So here I am at the age of 67 feeling that I have a new lease on musical life and feeling very enthusiastic about my piano playing indeed.  It is the main focus of my life.
I feel like Foucault when he said. "What, Monsieur, you care not for the clavecin?  You are indeed doomed to a dull old age."  Or something like that.

To summarize, IMO, playing ability comes from learning good coordination and this cannot be learned by oneself or by strenuous effort.  It not only requires a teacher, but specifically a teacher who is sensitive to the basic requirements of good coordination and has lots of specialized training and experience in it. 

My own teacher was trained in the Taubman and Golandsky institutes, but I'm sure there are others such as Lister-Sink or possibly Harold Taylor in England that are similar.

Richy

[leahcim]

Yes. It's both encouraging and discouraging what you say. Encouraging because if you've tried and failed and then tried and succeeded it suggests I might do the same. Discouraging because Taubman et al simply aren't in the UK.

Admittedly, I might be wrong, but as the most imaginitive piano teachers' advertisments say something like, the inspired, 'piano teacher. 01 811 8055' there's not a fool proof method to determine the ones that do understand this movement stuff from those that don't, so there might be three here.

You can't even ask them - because, as you'd expect, most teachers believe they can teach piano.  Even if their method is the typical "give you a piece and send you home to practise it for a week" and offer nothing more than saying 'practise' or, perhaps, if they are advanced, 'relax' in response to any questions about difficulties.

They'll act as though finding a teacher is easy, they are one after all, and they will teach you piano or anyone else. If you don't learn it's because, perhaps as Derek believes, it's because you must be retarded or crippled or don't want to learn and so on.

So it doesn't surprise me that you'd decided 'piano teacher' had such negative connotations before your surgery.

I think I've bounced between three viewpoints

(A) I need a teacher, and as you note it has to be a specific teacher. One day, if I find said teacher they'll show me how to play from scratch.

(B) Although I'd make quicker / better progress with a teacher, if I have the latent skill / ability / talent or whatever you need to be able to have control over piano playing without pain and discomfort you'll find it even if you can't find that teacher. I'm not talking pieces here, just playing CDEFG evenly, without pain, would be a start. The biggest problem with this is getting straight talk from people who can play. Whether via their books / videos or whatever about how to do it.

(C) I'll never learn to play - because some people just can't / don't.

I'd love to find out which.  I can certainly say that (B) and (C), having tried for years, suggest (C) is true and (B) isn't. (A) requires a teacher, and said teacher doesn't exist - or at least of the 3 teachers I've had, none pretended to know anything about how to play the piano and nor did they.

You know of one teacher in England that might be able to do this? I say might, because as you can see from my post, given any 2 piano teachers you have at least 5 different opinions about this elusive correct way to play. They can't all be right, can they? It suggests that most pianists must manage without somehow.

If you're wondering where 5 comes from, you have

(i) What pianist one says is correct
(ii) What pianist one actually does when they play
(iii) & (iv) Ditto for pianist 2 and
(v) Pianist 2 also recommends a book that says neither what he does nor what he says, but nevertheless he completely agrees with it's views on the correct way to play.

Of course, that's best case, for more typical situations, it's far more than 5

[m1469]

Well, this thread has progressed quite interestingly.  Thank you to all who have posted in.  I have wanted to individually address many of the points brought up here, but I think it's most "to the point" if I do so by remaining as close to on topic as I can.

Initially, I brought this question up forgetting some specifics about my past years of study.  I used to be immensly frustrated and felt I had no idea what to do.  I had so many voices in my head telling me different things, and often these different things seemed to be divergent.  I felt really, really confused.  That in itself is not so bad but I felt like I had no business touching the piano because I just had no idea what to do anymore.  As best as I could understand them, I followed the directions I recieved from my instructors but it seemed like I was just needing to end up trusting one teacher over another, and from my perspective, I felt there was very little for me to truly "latch" onto in what I was being told (and therefore practicing was not as focused as it could be).  I think my motives were right and I believe I was listening, yet there was something(S) amiss.

This thread has reminded me of this.  And, it is interesting for me to realize that all of these voices, all of these divergent opinions and such, have mostly just disappeared.  As I have studied some specific concepts and have experimented with some specific motions, these voices have just simply abated without me even realizing it.  I realize now that gradually, my approach to piano playing has become, more or less, a single intention and this has brought about a focus that I have never had before.  Mind you, not that I can't improve.

As a result, what I have witnessed in myself and in many of my students, and what I am coming to respect, is that there are not as many mysteries about piano playing as it may sometimes seem.  In short, when something is not working, it is because there is something specific that is causing it to not work, and this specific (granted we have "normal" functionality of our mobility) is something fixable at that.

Along the lines of there being something specific that is not working, I realize now that I forgot it could be the teacher and the teaching.  If a student possesses all of the "provideds" that are given above and things are still not working, there may be something missing from the teaching.  Admittedly though, the line is sometimes hazy between student needing to be a better student vs teacher needing to be a better teacher; ideally both parties are growing and the outcome of this growth is beautiful music.

Honestly, I am not certain I could solve every problem that comes my way through my students and, while not ALL of it is my responsibility as a teacher, I certainly do wish to do my part.  I do think there are some "basics" in playing that are actually very fundamental, though often overlooked because over the decades, people have believed that playing must be mysterious and reserved for the "geniuses" and "great talents."

I think there needs to be more of an approach on the part of the teachers that everybody IS capable of learning, provided the concepts are presented in a manner that is suitable for the student who possesses the "provideds" in my initial post.  I think students and individuals are too often (and lazily) dismissed as "not talented" or "just doesn't get it," when what was needed is a different approach from the teacher.

Now, I certainly do not have this all figured out, however, I wish to gain a better grasp and understanding, and that's why I have started this thread and that is the real reason I am posting in right now.

This idea of "hang up the gear" if something is not working after years of trying is realistic, however, the gear that should be hung up is not that of "hope" or so, but that of "method" -- if something is not working, change your behavior.   

[capella]

I've been meaning for days to thank all of you who participated in this thread.  I'm new and I've followed it closely.  It's a fantastic topic.  Two years of lessons in the 1960's has naturally put me all the way back to basic novice 40 years later.  (I'm 50).  So armed with my new (to me) 1964 Kimball console, I begin again.  So far, I've gotten what I needed from co-workers who praise the fact that I can still even read and play the notes and are guiding me on my weakest point - counting time.  I don't mind being in my first grade book and happily play and practice the little songs I originally learned.   

I hope to find a teacher after the holidays who are very much like some of you - who *believe* I can learn.  Because I believe I can, lack of natural talent and all.  Will I ever "play well"??  No.  Not if playing well is based on the difficulty of the piece by X or Y composers.  I want to play "well enough" for personal satisfaction.  I'm a long long way from there.  I hope to take lessons for many years.  I have always loved the piano and except for the past 10 years or so, have always had one.  I just self taught myself wrongly.  Faking out music I like by reading the treble cleft and cording the base.  Being so far behind the curve gives me lots and lots of time to continue do something I enjoy, keep my brain flexible and fluid, and promote that general feeling of self acutalization.

I do believe that I can learn to play.  If I didn't, I would quit before I even gave myself a chance.  Kudos to the teachers who believe their students *can*. 

[danny elfboy]

Provided they are good listeners, follow directions and practice efficiently and consistently.

Please share your thoughts, and if you do not believe it's so (that anybody can learn to play well), please feel free to explain why.

I believe that everyone can learn the physical aspects of playing the piano but I don't believe that everyone can learn the musicality required to be a good musician.

By musicality I mean also the passion, the sensitivity, the natural belief that music is your second language, the merging with the sounds and the ability to see in sounds what others can't see.

Now maybe what people call "talent" is just the combination of these factors, factors that make what I call a "musical soul" and hence a "potential musician".
All "musical souls" are "potential musicians" but "non musical souls" are not.

[pianowolfi]

The soul is inherently musical, in my book. The question is, can I as a teacher help someone to get more in contact with his/her inherently musical soul?

[m1469]

I hope to find a teacher after the holidays who are very much like some of you - who *believe* I can learn.  Because I believe I can, lack of natural talent and all. 

(...)

I do believe that I can learn to play.  If I didn't, I would quit before I even gave myself a chance.  Kudos to the teachers who believe their students *can*. 

Welcome to the forum, Capella, and thanks for chiming in .  I feel inclined to comment a bit on this idea of "belief" in oneself and from the teacher (especially since the word is actually in the topic-heading).  I think "belief" is necessary in terms of a sense of "faith," however, this is not enough.  This is only a sort of "starting point" or so and a place that may be returned to when necessary.  This belief would be better described as a conviction; a conviction that there is a way to develop each individual's unique perspective and ability.  This is similar to having a conviction that there is an "easy" way to play a particular piece of music (and I realize that everybody does not think this way -- but why pick a piece of music up if you don't think it will develop into something you can play with ease ?), one just must discover what this is (which is sometimes the "hard" part).

My main point is that one must pay attention to results, as well as having a sense of "belief."  Sometimes (and I remember this very clearly in myself) it is *very* difficult for a student to cope with the results they are getting.  Comprehending the results of a given behavior can be unclear when there is an array of behaviors ocurring simultaneously (each giving their own result); it is difficult to know how to pay attention to specifics.  This is one place a well-matched teacher can be invaluable to the student in terms of helping the student (especially an "experienced" student) recognize what to keep and what to throw out. 

So, in my opinion, belief serves a specific purpose and function :  Belief initiates action and supports attention to results.  After that, a line must be carefully walked in determining what comes next -- and, there is always a next. 

So yes, believe, but also discover !

[danny elfboy]

The soul is inherently musical, in my book. The question is, can I as a teacher help someone to get more in contact with his/her inherently musical soul?

You can't if they don't want.
I think that music is predisposition like writing.
While all people might have something to write and could learn how to become good writer they might not resonate with writing, it might not be in their strings, it might not be a language that they feel like using.

I believe we have the potential to be everything and do everything but not everything suit the people we are, the sensitivity we posses and our way to communicate with the world.

We're all different (the one who loves to work with animals, the one who loves to work with people, the one who loves to cook, the one who hates to cook, the one who loves sport and the one who doesn't like sport, the one who loves competition and the one who hates competition, the one who loves to travel, the one who doesn't like to travel and want stability ....), and having a special feeling with the musical language is one of those differences.

[nyonyo]

I believe that everyone can learn the physical aspects of playing the piano but I don't believe that everyone can learn the musicality required to be a good musician.

I do not even believe that everyone can learn the physical aspects of playing piano. As you know virtually all of us can run but very few of us can run fast. The same with Piano, if you really have the desire, you can play the Revolutionary etude, but you may not be able to play at the speed of concert pianists. Because, not all of us have that kind of muscle.

[danny elfboy]

I do not even believe that everyone can learn the physical aspects of playing piano. As you know virtually all of us can run but very few of us can run fast. The same with Piano, if you really have the desire, you can play the Revolutionary etude, but you may not be able to play at the speed of concert pianists. Because, not all of us have that kind of muscle.

I have seen very young children playing virtuoso pieces at the speed of concert pianists and yet they were skinny and had little muscles. In truth everyone who is not starving posses enough muscles and strength to play the most virtuoso pieces, muscles have nothing to do with speed and stregth. Mental control of muscles has.

[capella]

My main point is that one must pay attention to results, as well as having a sense of "belief."  Sometimes (and I remember this very clearly in myself) it is *very* difficult for a student to cope with the results they are getting

Thank you for your comments and welcome.  Your point is the exact reason I'm going to look for teacher after the holidays.  I've wandered too long just doing whatever I wanted without any formal structure or feedback.  I'm *hoping* my age (50) works for me in the respect of being able to take the hit and keep repeating the same things or stalling on certain concepts.  I don't have the push that younger learners may feel as my kids are grown and my time is my own after work - mostly.  I'm hoping my basic stick-to-it-ness serves me as well learning the piano as it has in learning some other things that inspired me.  I love just the basic little stuff I'm doing now.  Learning to count...sigh:) and trucking along in my little beginning level book.  I'm really looking foward to learning more.

Debbie

[nyonyo]

I have seen very young children playing virtuoso pieces at the speed of concert pianists and yet they were skinny and had little muscles. In truth everyone who is not starving posses enough muscles and strength to play the most virtuoso pieces, muscles have nothing to do with speed and stregth. Mental control of muscles has.

Of course, I did not mean the power of the muscle but the SPEED and accuracy. Not everybody has those two. Without those two, people will become a very limited pianist!! They can only do moderately speed pieces.

[bob3.1415926]

I think the speed and accuracy would come to anyone with sufficient practice. There is obviously a cut off point, but I think that if a person practices efficiently and sufficiently they will get very far, even into the 'virtuosic' repertoire, if they start early enough in life to have time for that much improvement. Although I accept that this instantly rules out most people, as they'd never have the drive or patience to see this through.
However, playing beautifully/musically, I think this is a real challenge. In my opinion people need life experience and the ability to fully engage with their playing. There's many pianists who play so mechanically, their 'interpretations' are calculated, not felt, and this doesn't convince me.
Take Kissin for example (I'm not a big fan) in his playing (particularly of the romantic repertoire) I can hear that he's done nothing but practice piano his entire life. His interpretations are so calculated, his playing so clean and precise, but there's no humanity. However, his recording of Chasse Neige is wonderful. You can hear his cold lonely life in it. It still blows me away whenever I hear it.
So in answer to the question, IF they're willing to put in the effort (a big IF), I think anyone can learn the physical side of playing piano. Making music is far more elusive however, and I think that very few do that convincingly. (yes I'm a big Richter fan  )

[nyonyo]

I think most of concert pianists are like Kissin. They spend most of their life playing piano.
Otherwise, it is virtually impossible to attain that level at such young age. Like what you have said they need to practice.

Richter = machine...Souless....

[m1469]

I believe that everyone can learn the physical aspects of playing the piano but I don't believe that everyone can learn the musicality required to be a good musician.

I agree with this to the extent that musicality is not something taught or instilled within each individual, but that which is innate within each individual.  I also agree with Wolfi :

The soul is inherently musical, in my book. The question is, can I as a teacher help someone to get more in contact with his/her inherently musical soul?

I do not view anybody as something empty that gets full through the "acquisition" of knowledge and experience.  I do think, though, that our experiences throughout life will awaken what is within us to be expressed.  I think, actually, that is the true point of our experiences in general; to awaken us to who we are and to give us the opportunity to explore this.

So, my "starting point" as a teacher is to accept that each individual has already something beautiful and musical to offer, it's just a matter of us discovering (together) what that is and how it is best expressed.  This may sound "fluffy" or so, but I have not yet seen any concrete reason to think otherwise.

[m1469]

You can't if they don't want.

Well, IF this is true, I will just remind us that we do have a context in this thread.  While I am actually asking if anybody in the world is capable of physically playing the piano, so long as they possess the provideds above, it is for the purpose of serving those who actually wish to do so.   The context of the thread is such that the student has signed on for piano lessons precisely because they want to learn how to express themselves musically.  And, while of course I realize that there are circumstances in which a person is taking lessons against their will, this is not the context of the thread.

However, along these lines, I think that "wanting to" can be inspired even for those whom have formerly believed they didn't want to or felt generally indifferent towards the endeavor.
 

I think that music is predisposition like writing.
While all people might have something to write and could learn how to become good writer they might not resonate with writing, it might not be in their strings, it might not be a language that they feel like using.

I believe we have the potential to be everything and do everything but not everything suit the people we are, the sensitivity we posses and our way to communicate with the world.

We're all different (the one who loves to work with animals, the one who loves to work with people, the one who loves to cook, the one who hates to cook, the one who loves sport and the one who doesn't like sport, the one who loves competition and the one who hates competition, the one who loves to travel, the one who doesn't like to travel and want stability ....), and having a special feeling with the musical language is one of those differences.

I agree with this to the extent that I think this is how it appears within this timeframe that we call the "human life."  But, it is only an appearence governed by limitations in perception.  The point is that yes, we do each have an (infinite) reservoire to draw from.  Hopefully the right circumstances give us opportunity to draw on this facet of who we are.  Once again, though, we are talking about a context in that my wish is to serve those whom music does resonate with, or to help those people to resonate with music who have not yet realized its existence in their lives. 

No, I am not talking about trying to "convert" every walking human being into being a pianist, though yes, the topic ventures into the area of deciding whether or not every human being who wants to could be.  But, again, this is for the purpose of serving those whom DO wish to be a pianist and a musician.

[leonidas]

I find it funny when people love music, listen to it alot, and yet say when challenged why they never learned to do something with it, they say something like 'oh, I haven't the coordination' or 'I haven't a musical bone in my body'.

If one loves something, they already show they are suited to the mental process of being active in it.

[danny elfboy]

I agree with this to the extent that I think this is how it appears within this timeframe that we call the "human life."  But, it is only an appearence governed by limitations in perception.

Even if I could live eternally like an highlander there still would be a lot of things that doesn't suit who I am and what stimulates me, things I would never try and would never be involved with. It's not just a matter of "limited time" because I consider myself pretty eclectic even with my limited time but even if I lived forever I still would never be interested in fast cars, would never get in a rollercoaster, would never go out hunting animals, would never attend a reality show, would never play in a dark metal group, would never play the violin, would never become a mathematician, would never work in a bank, would never play rugby and boxing and so on ... 

No, I am not talking about trying to "convert" every walking human being into being a pianist, though yes, the topic ventures into the area of deciding whether or not every human being who wants to could be.  But, again, this is for the purpose of serving those whom DO wish to be a pianist and a musician.

I do think that REAL passionate willingness to do something coupled with consistence and hard work allow that person to succeed and it's the most important factor to succeed.

[m1469]

Even if I could live eternally like an highlander there still would be a lot of things that doesn't suit who I am and what stimulates me, things I would never try and would never be involved with. It's not just a matter of "limited time" because I consider myself pretty eclectic even with my limited time but even if I lived forever I still would never be interested in fast cars, would never get in a rollercoaster, would never go out hunting animals, would never attend a reality show, would never play in a dark metal group, would never play the violin, would never become a mathematician, would never work in a bank, would never play rugby and boxing and so on ... 

It is my impression, and has been for several years, that what we think we love about this or that is not actually what it may seem.  Everything we do, everything we invest ourselves in, are representations of whatever these things actually mean to us.  Harmony can be expressed in so many different ways, and it is.  This is, to me, still music even when not expressed through playing an accepted "musical instrument."  There are characteristics that make each one of the things you described above what they are.  However, these characteristics don't belong to the thing per se, they come from a sort of "pool" of infinite possibilities.   

To bring it back to topic, everybody expresses music in some way already.  At least this is how I see it.  And, we each express some form of everything that belongs to "soul" in our own unique ways.  The form is far less important than the intention. 

The qualities which make music Music, are not limited by form nor instrument.

[bob3.1415926]

The qualities which make music Music, are not limited by form nor instrument.

I like what you're saying, but I'm not sure I totally agree. Individuals have strengths and weaknesses when it comes to musical expression.
For example, I like singing. When I practice, my ability to hit and hold notes, and also the range and quality of my voice improves. However, no matter how much I practice, I will not utterly captivate my listeners the way someone like Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau can.
My proficiency can really improve, but there is something lacking in my ability to use my voice which inhibits an overall musical performance like one of his. I don't believe this is because I lack musicality, or the ability to make music, just that I can't blend with my voice in a musical way.
Similarly I think people have this trouble with the piano. Although I think there is a lot more scope to overcome this on the piano than with the voice (I've accepted that only I want to hear me play and sing lieder!) but I still think it is incredibly hard, and if a teacher manages it with one in ten pupils, then they are a fantastic teacher.

[timothy42b]

I find it funny when people love music, listen to it alot, and yet say when challenged why they never learned to do something with it, they say something like 'oh, I haven't the coordination' or 'I haven't a musical bone in my body'.

If one loves something, they already show they are suited to the mental process of being active in it.

Nice theory, but...........obviously you've never sung in a church choir.  We attract people who love music, listen to it all the time, are rather knowledgable about music appreciation (can recognize classical stuff that's not even close to pop), and have a sincere desire to sing and make music.

They do sing, and make the rest of us miserable!

[m1469]

Addressing these last two posts regarding singing...

I used to feel a bit like a person either has it or they don't, since people's voices are so incredibly unique to the individual.  I felt this way until I was part of a voice class that ran for 12 weeks, where most of the members of the class were not formally trained, were often told by others that they couldn't sing at all, yet, they wanted badly to be able to sing.  Actually, the teacher of this class specialized in this area.  There was a woman in this class who really did not sound good when she sang.

We did quite a bit of singing and noise-making in this class so I had the opportunity to hear this lady sing on quite a few occasions.  Well, one day she came to class feeling quite distraught.  The teacher actually used this opportunity to have her explore some different sounds.  The rest of the class stood in a circle around her as the teacher worked with her.  As he had her doing some specific things (unique for her in those moments) suddenly a sound came out of her mouth that was absolutely STUNNING !  I have never in my life seen anything like that before (nor since). 

Here we had a woman who really seemed to have a fairly weak and an unpleasant sound as she sang (and it had been this way for years), and then suddenly her entire voice transformed into something *completely* different; it completely filled the entire room and ecompassed all of us within it.  It was rich, powerful, she could seemingly sing it forever (indicating a fantastic use of breath and support) and basically indescribably beautiful.  This experience really opened my eyes.

Basically we all have the same "tubing," more or less.  And, while we will not all sound the same no matter how well we are using our instruments, I suspect that many people who are labled as non-singers just don't understand how to use their voice to its potential.  Even if all people were able to use their voice to their fullest potential, we would still all sound unique (which is the beauty of it), and some voices would probably still be bigger than others and so on.  But, I think that IF we all DID learn how to use our voices, every one of us would be capable of making a beautiful sound.

The catch is that many people do not base their teaching on this concept and therefore the teacher does not dig in the same way (to find the voice) that one might to find each person's voice.  Maybe that is not really the teacher's "fault" ... I think there are probably special "techniques" to help people discover themselves musically and not every teacher would even know how (nor is willing) to help each individual develop their voice seemingly out of nowhere.

Well, just some thoughts for now.