slow practice?

[lostinidlewonder]

There is many definitions of SLOW PRACTICE. Let me reveal what I believe the correct way for slow practice is.

Firstly, that is you choose a tempo which you can feel while you play. Too many people play at such a slow rate that they lose sense of the tempo of the music, the flow of notes. Movements because simply notes following each other, and we do not feel a musical flow to what we are playing.

Secondly, slow practice must be at a rate in which you do not have any uncontrolled pausing/hesitations. If any of these creep in you are going too fast, or you are not acting against them correctly (technically, or even you might be trying to do too much, incorrect bounds practice).

Thirdly, correct slow practice will give you the ability to play at any speed at will. How many slow pieces do you know very well that you can play many times faster than the tempo requirement if needed? For example, I'd whip through Beethovens Moonlight 1st Movement in presto now and then just to ensure I remember all the notes. I never use to practice it at this speed but I have the ability to because I have mastered it at a slower rate. This same concept applies to studying "fast" music, you always learn it at a controlled slower tempo, then you can push it up to any speed you require, IF you have practiced slowly correctly.

There is a very fine line between practice slowly correct and wrong. A fouth requirement of slow practice is that you do not search for notes with your fingers individually moving, every movement has to be done with a group of notes at a time, you find at slow speeds you can fall into bad habits of searching for notes with individual finger contortions, this is very wrong, but very easy to fall into.

A fifth point to correct slow practice would be to play the correct bounds. Too many people try to do to much at one time and thus have too many of the previous points mentioned to contend with. Baby steps, small sections at a time, then eventually these small steps get bigger and more efficient. Too many people try to do too much at a time with slow practice and simply end up playing with too many errors. Determining your practice bounds is a important skill and it must be done so every practice group can be done without effort. Also you must have a logic as to how you knit these all of these little groups together.

[paulpiano]

While playing slowly it's very difficult to play with the same motions as in fast playing.

[term]

i never practice fast sections slowly. I try them fast. If its really difficult, i break it down into smaller pieces and do them fast.
It just makes sure that i don't just repeat and learn it the slow way.
There is no loss of clarity or whatever one might expect.  After a while you just "get it" and every note is fine and beautiful without having spend a second playing them slowly.

[counterpoint]

i never practice fast sections slowly. I try them fast. If its really difficult, i break it down into smaller pieces and do them fast.
It just makes sure that i don't just repeat and learn it the slow way.

Which Chopin Etudes did you play, and did you learn them that way?

[term]

Which Chopin Etudes did you play, and did you learn them that way?

I know what you mean. I did practise pieces more difficult than the chopin etudes that way, and i practised the op 10/4 etude like that (the only one i learned, but i admit i'm not really good at it). Everything, actually.^^ It follows the idea, that small parts can easily be played fast, and then in order to play everything coherently, one needs to connect the parts.
Now, i'm just saying that thats the principle I apply, not that it always works right away, and not that i completely dismiss slow repetitions. Every rule has its exceptions.

[richard black]

Surely it mainly depends what you're learning. I've just been mugging up the Jolivet flute concerto (no, the orchestral reduction on the piano, what did you think?) and slowly is the only way to get my head round the little bugger at first. But the Mozart flute concerto (for the same audition) I won't bother slowing down to learn it.

[electrodoc]

Slow or fast practice? A good question. As an amateur I find that slow practice is of enormous benefit. It has taken my own teacher a considerable time to get me to do this as I have always wanted to move more quickly than my abilities allow. Many times I have played a work at speed and in a way that I thought was reasonably good only to be told that I was just hanging on; that there were small errors where an ornament didn’t quite work, or where the rhythm went very slightly out of sync.

In turn, he studied with Yves Nat at the Paris Conservatoire where students had a very disciplined regime. For practice sessions they were assigned to a more senior student who would sit with them controlling the metronome. The junior student would play a passage or section of a work to establish a suitable speed. If there was one single mistake or hesitation then the metronome would be set a couple of notches lower. Again, if there was any mistake or hesitation it would be slowed down further until a speed where everything was under perfect control was established. The junior student then had to be able to play this section six times perfectly before the metronome was put up a notch. This was the system until eventually, over several weeks full speed was attained. Interestingly, my teacher still practices in this way when preparing for a recital even if he has played the work many times before. It may take many weeks to get to performance speed but, believe me, he has everything under perfect control.

Some time ago Ashkenazy was visiting my home. While I was talking with his wife he was practicing on my piano. When he had finished (about an hour later) we interrupted him and he beamed remarking that was the first time that he had played that section up to speed. (the work was the Rautavaara Concerto).

So if slow practice is good enough for Yves Nat, my teacher, and for Ashkenazy then it is good enough for me. It is a slow and difficult discipline but the end result is worth the effort. Of course, each individual has to find the way that works best for him/herself – there is no single right way, only what works. For me it is disciplined slow practice.

Wishing everyone a very happy Christmas

electrodoc

[nick]

Practice only at full speed.  In fact, practice faster than performance tempo!  Never use the metronome, always hold the pedal down, and make sure you never hit the right notes twice in a row.

you laugh, but there are people on this forum, particularly from the past, that advocated the first 2 points! amazing.

Nick

[term]

umm...i never use the metronome 

[nick]

Slow or fast practice? A good question. As an amateur I find that slow practice is of enormous benefit. It has taken my own teacher a considerable time to get me to do this as I have always wanted to move more quickly than my abilities allow. Many times I have played a work at speed and in a way that I thought was reasonably good only to be told that I was just hanging on; that there were small errors where an ornament didn’t quite work, or where the rhythm went very slightly out of sync.

In turn, he studied with Yves Nat at the Paris Conservatoire where students had a very disciplined regime. For practice sessions they were assigned to a more senior student who would sit with them controlling the metronome. The junior student would play a passage or section of a work to establish a suitable speed. If there was one single mistake or hesitation then the metronome would be set a couple of notches lower. Again, if there was any mistake or hesitation it would be slowed down further until a speed where everything was under perfect control was established. The junior student then had to be able to play this section six times perfectly before the metronome was put up a notch. This was the system until eventually, over several weeks full speed was attained. Interestingly, my teacher still practices in this way when preparing for a recital even if he has played the work many times before. It may take many weeks to get to performance speed but, believe me, he has everything under perfect control.

Some time ago Ashkenazy was visiting my home. While I was talking with his wife he was practicing on my piano. When he had finished (about an hour later) we interrupted him and he beamed remarking that was the first time that he had played that section up to speed. (the work was the Rautavaara Concerto).

So if slow practice is good enough for Yves Nat, my teacher, and for Ashkenazy then it is good enough for me. It is a slow and difficult discipline but the end result is worth the effort. Of course, each individual has to find the way that works best for him/herself – there is no single right way, only what works. For me it is disciplined slow practice.

Wishing everyone a very happy Christmas

electrodoc

but it sounds like your teacher didn't advocate slow practice as much as correct progressive practice. big difference. moving up, always playing at your correct max speed is very different from slow practice. not so?

Nick

[electrodoc]

Thanks for the helpful comment Nick. You are entirely correct with your observation.

However, many advanced pianists practice at slow speeds even when a work has reached performance level. By slow speeds I mean three-quarter speed or less. There must be good reason for this - full and complete control, development of subtle nuances, reinforcement of memory, etc.

The danger of fast practice is developing small errors that become cumulative and may become locked in. It is then very difficult to eradicate the mistakes. I do not think that slow and progressive practice necessarily leads to incorrect muscular movement because the correct movement should develop (under control) as the speed increases.

electrodoc

[teresa_b]

Hi,

I think I replied somewhere before on this thread.  I agree with electrodoc, and I believe I commented that I do exactly that--even when I can play the piece at tempo, I frequently play it (or passages) at about 3/4 speed first. 

I find that I use essentially the same movements at tempo, especially if I concentrate during slow practice on how I will play it at tempo, and focus on gaining control and evenness.

 I often discover things that have hindered me--for example, I was practicing Mozart K271 this week slowly, and I realized--"Ah, I'm not taking the best advantage of forearm rotation!"  This had resulted in my arm getting a little tired by the end of some long fast passages.  When I concentrated on making sure my forearm was rotating sufficiently and evenly, the muscle fatigue vanished. 

Teresa

[nick]

Thanks for the helpful comment Nick. You are entirely correct with your observation.

However, many advanced pianists practice at slow speeds even when a work has reached performance level. By slow speeds I mean three-quarter speed or less. There must be good reason for this - full and complete control, development of subtle nuances, reinforcement of memory, etc.

The danger of fast practice is developing small errors that become cumulative and may become locked in. It is then very difficult to eradicate the mistakes. I do not think that slow and progressive practice necessarily leads to incorrect muscular movement because the correct movement should develop (under control) as the speed increases.

electrodoc

You're Welcome electrodoc. I was just pointing out that your teacher sounds like he advocated progressive correct speeding up of speed for practice, rather than slow practice. And the concert pianist, Ashkenozy (sp?) you have no way of knowing how he practiced, only that his playing up to tempo was the first for him that day. He could have been practicing at 9/10 practice speed, or 1/2 speed or combination.
    My own practice speed varies. I cannot play at progressive faster and faster past a certain point. Fingers get too tired and performance accuracy or perfection decrease. Like asking a sprinter to continuously sprint over and over with no rest. I like the 3/4 or medium speed mostly.

Nick

[paulpiano]

I heard that some pianists play at a tempo which allow absolute control over everything. When they encounter a difficult section they automatically slow down at a pace that enables them to control everything. Later on, they pick up all the difficult sections and they work out the difficult elements.

[pianodude90]

Slow practice depends on how much technique you got in. If you play much scales, then it shouldn't be any problem to fix for example a Mozartpiece in short time.
The reason why slowpractice is important, is because your fingers haven't played this techinque, and the fingers need to get used to play in a different way than before.

[steinway43]

Franzliszt2 is quite right, and I suspect Brendel is lying.

I have found that pieces I've played on a regular basis for many years don't need to be slowed down all that much, but if I force myself to do it the result is stellar improvement in the final performance.

In high school my teacher arranged for me to play for a hugely famous pianist who was coming to town. He gave me a lesson on a Liszt Rhapsody and we had a bit of a discussion about the life of a pianist and practicing. My teacher asked him if he practiced slow and he said yes, that every day of a performance he would go out on the stage with the hall empty and play the piece straight through from beginning to end at a "glacial pace." He then added, "If you tell anyone I said that I'll call you a delusional liar!" Should I name him 30 years later? lol

This doesn't mean it's not easier for some than for others but there's a lot of pretense and snobbery in the piano world, not to mention INSANE jealousy over those with natural ability. Being called delusional for being gifted is not fun.

I think the piano world is somewhat insane, frankly. lol



 

[steinway43]

I heard that some pianists play at a tempo which allow absolute control over everything. When they encounter a difficult section they automatically slow down at a pace that enables them to control everything. Later on, they pick up all the difficult sections and they work out the difficult elements.

This approach makes the most sense.