Arm and hand stiffening

[pianochick93]

When I try to play Schubert's Erlkonig, I find that my hand and arm tense up in the triplet chords. I try and stop and relax, but it doesn't work, I just tense up again when I start.

Any suggestions as yo what I could do?

Thanks

[tengstrand]

Hi,
maybe this would be of some help:

If it's the fast, repeated chords you're talking about.
Per

[faustsaccomplice]

haha

that's like saying, "i'm trying to run a marathon, but for some reason i keep getting tired! any suggestions?"

you are playing one of the most taxing chord/octave pieces in the repertoire.  you will get tired.


anyway, if you're getting stiff, it's because muscles are getting tired and are being compensated for with other muscles that aren't meant for the job. 

efficiency is key here.  be sure you're so well practiced (slowly) that you always go to the right place and don't waste ANY energy straying off and on course.

also, developing strong fingertips is an important thing for playing chords and octaves. 

another thing to keep in mind for these things is that after practicing it, you will have expended energy and it will get harder to make it through.  you need just enough warm-up to be flexible, but not enough that you've used up any energy.

you might not go jogging the morning of a marathon...

[richard black]

In the long run, speaking as one who's played that accompaniment many times, I'd say, just get used to it. It doesn't get any easier. Still, there are things you can do - change the wrist position (higher/lower), move on the stool a little, bring the LH up to play the bottom of the repeated octaves for half a bar now and then when it's not doing anything else (including the first bar, actually, this really helps because if you try to play those opening octaves just perfectly, as one naturally will, it's the best possible way of getting as stiff as a board before you've got anywhere at all). 'Practising through the pain' is hard, but you can build up resilience by playing until it starts to feel really uncomfortable, then stopping and shaking both hands for the minimum time (2 or 3 seconds), then restarting. If all else fails, cheat.

[viking]

Guess what??
It can get easier!
Please dont listen to the people that give you no hope, just telling you to fight through the pain.  Actually, it can be done with relative ease.  But you need to make sure that there is arm and shoulder weight behind EACH NOTE!  Dont play from your forearm, or even from your wrist for that matter, as you will have no sound.  Think of shaking a rug.  You're not going to just shake it with your wrists, as you won't shake it much.  Nor will you shake it with your forearms, as that is just weird.  But please, go find a rug, and shake it using all the muscles in your shoulders and back.  It's the exact same sensation, and you won't ever get stiff muscles. 

[faustsaccomplice]

'Practising through the pain' is hard, but you can build up resilience by playing until it starts to feel really uncomfortable, then stopping and shaking both hands for the minimum time (2 or 3 seconds), then restarting. If all else fails, cheat.

ouch!  careful with that...it's a recipe for injury

[thalbergmad]

'Practising through the pain' is hard, but you can build up resilience by playing until it starts to feel really uncomfortable, then stopping and shaking both hands for the minimum time (2 or 3 seconds), then restarting. If all else fails, cheat.

TUT TUT Richard, despite your years of experience and the fact that you play the piece in question, this is not the modern method.

Read Chang, play Scarlatti, milk cows and shake carpets. That is all you need to do.

Thal

[richard black]

Didn't necessarily mean to appear that I was advising practising through the pain, though I realise now it looks a bit that way. It works for some people but I've never been one for that kind of approach. But building up resilience, yes, that I advocate!

[dan101]

Scales and regular chord exercises will improve your octaves a lot faster than exhausting yourself with repetitive octaves. Try doing a lot of standard scale work and then try the Schubert again.


 

[schubertiad]

I'm struggling to see how a b flat minor contrary motion scale could possibly help improve the octaves in Erlkoenig...

[pianochick93]

So do I...

My teacher suggested a method though: Putting different rhythms and tempos to the octaves, and do that for a whilw. Apparently when I go back to normal my fingers will literally thank me.

It is for working on trills especially.

[counterpoint]

I'm struggling to see how a b flat minor contrary motion scale could possibly help improve the octaves in Erlkoenig...

It's very funny to see how people think, they have to practise scales to improve their chord playing, octaves, staccato, legato etc. 

[counterpoint]

  But you need to make sure that there is arm and shoulder weight behind EACH NOTE! 

No. Arm weight is not the solution, arm weight is the problem!

Playing with slight hand movements but with fixed arm (that means "light" arm) works much better - at least for me.

[thalberg]

I'm struggling to see how a b flat minor contrary motion scale could possibly help improve the octaves in Erlkoenig...

I'd struggle with that one, too. 

[viking]

No. Arm weight is not the solution, arm weight is the problem!

Playing with slight hand movements but with fixed arm (that means "light" arm) works much better - at least for me.

And that is your right to believe that.  It is a totally opposite school of thought, and granted it's better than tensing up and fighting the pain, it produces an inferior sound.  If you play using your shoulders and elbows, you will get arm behind each note, creating a noticeable presence in the sound.  Take, for example, the section of the Dante Sonata that was being discussed in the youtube video posted earlier in this thread.  Since that passage requires a huge sound, it is impossible to do so without using the technique I have described.  Similarily, the same is true for Liszt's 6th Hungarian Rhapsody.

[pita bread]

viking, how's the trilling?

[viking]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I am in debt to you

[slobone]

Make sure you're sitting up high enough on the stool. A low position makes octaves more difficult.

[faustsaccomplice]

Make sure you're sitting up high enough on the stool. A low position makes octaves more difficult.

i strongly disagree with that

i find that it initially gives the illusion of being easier, but in reality promotes tension

[kevink]

I've been stumped on the same question for a long time.  All the conflicting suggestions here remind me of the book "The Soprano on Her Head"... in it is a chapter entitled "Drink Your Milk/Don't Drink Your Milk," in which the author makes the case that, for every problem that you run into, you can find people giving you completely contradictory solutions.  Some say milk does a body good; some people disagree.  You'll find healthy people in both camps.  Is one piece of advice better than another?  Perhaps... the question can only be answered by YOU, though.  Everybody is different, and we all come at these sorts of problems from different angles. 

If I told you what I've found to be the case for me, it isn't necessarily the same as it would be for you, and in any case even if it were, I might not be able to describe the sensations I've had well enough for you to recognize them as your own. 

Rejoice!  You've encountered a technical difficulty that you MUST solve on your own.  However long you spend at this, puzzling over why it is so damn hard, is time well-spent.  In the process, if you really search for an answer, you'll find out a tremendous amount about technique that has applications in all other sorts of technical problems. 

I urge you not to believe that anyone else, even your teacher, can solve this one for you.  You'll have to study your motions and find out what is necessary and what isn't... and of course, read suggestions like those posted here, and try out the practice suggestions of your teacher... but whatever you do, don't just do something and hope that it works.  Always evaluate whether or not it works, and WHY.  If your teacher's practice suggestions work, then figure out WHY they worked, or it is wasted--because if you don't answer that question for yourself, you haven't learned anything, and you'll stumble blindly into the next technical problem without any lessons from this one to help you on the next.

I can tell you that in the three or four years I've been studying this problem, I have made considerable progress, and the willingness to really engage in STUDYING it, has revealed to me a wealth of experience in other technical challenges.  If you'll believe it, trying to figure out how to play fast octaves has, for me, led to discoveries on:

-how to play FF passages with a great tone and nearly effortlessly
-how to always go to the bottom of the key
-how to use more active fingertips
-how to keep from getting tense in scale- or arpeggio-passages. 

Now I'm finally to the point where I can play the 6th Hungarian Rhapsody and that pesky passage in the Dante Sonata, with ease.  I can sustain triplet eighths at quarter=160, and ordinary sixteenth notes at quarter=132.  My goal now is sixteenths at quarter=144 for the Presto of the Hungarian Rhapsody, and I'm making progress on it.

I always approach technical issues with this attitude:  if it is hard to execute it, I'm doing something wrong.  Sure, in very difficult passages, there is a problem with consistency.  It won't *always* work.  But I'm talking about the physical stress of playing.  If it's hard, it's impossible.  There is a beautiful, easy, elegant solution to every problem of the piano, which is available to ALL of us.  You don't have to be born with the reflexes of an 8-year-old video-game addict in order to play fast.  You can learn, if you're willing to think for yourself not take "it's not possible" or "it's always gonna be tough" or "no one solution will work" for an answer.

Take a look on youtube for videos of pianists playing the 6th Hungarian Rhapsody, Erlkoenig, the Dante Sonata, and La Campanella.  Those pieces all have fast, repeated octave passages.  Try to learn from how they move. 

OK now down to my own solutions, which may or may not help you, but will add to your archive of "other peoples' answers"....

There are two ways to play octaves from the key, as far as I can tell, that are healthy tone-wise and physically.  One is to use only the wrist.  The other is to use only the upper arm.

With the wrist motion, the wrist itself rises very slightly in response to the fingers pressing the key down.  There is no other arm involvement.  With the arm motion, the wrist descends (as though it has a string tied around it, that you are pulling down on from beneath it) as the fingers press into the keys.  In this way the wrist acts like a shock absorber.  Lehvinne and Cortot both wrote about this method.  In both cases, strong fingertips are a must.

The important part for me, after learning to execute both those motions, was learning to NOT flex the bicep while executing either one of them.  This is the muscle that you use to do curls; notice when your arm "stiffens" that there is muscle fiber being flexed at the base of your forearm where it meets the bicep--sort of the inside of the elbow.  This is bad news; it's what stops everything. 

I haven't tried shaking a rug out--maybe that is helpful.  But do try this exercise, which is intended to isolate the wrist motion from the rest of the arm.  Try resting your arm on a table top, and knocking on the table with your knuckles--just like knocking on a door.  Don't let the bicep tense up; you don't want to see that muscle fiber standing up on the inside of your elbow.  If you start with just two fast knocks, "da-da!" as fast as you can, without any tension, and try to get that rebound feeling, then you can slowly add knocks while trying to keep the speed.  For me, doing little groups of knocks allowed me to really use the rebound of my knuckles bouncing off the table-top (or other surface), in a way that dramatically increased the speed.  Notice how much faster you can do just two knocks at a time, than you can when you try to do 4 or 6, at first.  Again, find out WHY.  And use that knowledge.  If you can do two really fast, it is possible to eventually do four, then 8, then any number.  Then go to the piano and try to replicate the motion.

At some point you might try combining a mixture of the upper arm motion and the wrist motion--either together, or alternating in some sort of pattern; perhaps pulsing each beat with the upper arm, and then following through with the wrist.  That is one school's answer, and I've found it beneficial--but it requires practice to coordinate.  At first, it is most important to make sure that the bicep isn't involved no matter what.   

Hope that helps.  I'd be delighted to hear how you do with this, and any responses you have to my suggestions or others'!  Best wishes.
Kevin

[richard black]

if it is hard to execute it, I'm doing something wrong

That's a harsh analysis - but so true!

[dan101]

Hey guys,

Looks like I've stirred the pot with my "scales improve octaves" practice theory. In my studies at both the under graduate and graduate levels, many of us practiced octaves heavily into the piano. We would also sit at a slightly higher height and practice at a slower speed for clarity.

However, we also supplimented that with a lot of scale practice. Scales make for strong fingers; something needed in octave playing. As strange as that may seem, the connection is there. Scale playing makes for clearer octaves, in conjuntion with regular octave practice. Best of luck with the Schubert piece.

[stringoverstrung]

Hey guys,

 Scales make for strong fingers; something needed in octave playing.

You don't need strong fingers: our finger arch can hold our body weight naturally: more then enough for piano playing.
you need agile, controlled fingers and a correct position of the hand and the arch of the hand (which feels kind of strong once you find it!)

[dan101]

I humbly disagree. Rapid octaves need stength as well as agility,stamina and power. The components are not separable in the type of octave playing that the original post wants. I'm enjoying the discussion.

[dan101]

Hey Pianochich 93,

Erlkonig not only requires stong fingers and flexibility fingers (the scale work that I mentioned) but a proper approach to the octave attack. Assuming you already have strong and flexible fingers, make sure to play rapid octaves by NOT aiming your thumb and fifth finger too 'deeply' into the keys. As well, you MUST undulate your wrist or you will always end up stiff, even with strong fingers. Undulating means attacking the octaves with a mixture of a high, medium and low lying wrist, so as to give your muscles that control a particular angle of attack a chance to rest.

I've played this piece quite often in concert and only acheived success through strong fingers and an undulating wrist technique. Please feel to contact me if you need further assistance. Once again, good luck.