Better Piano, Better Technique

[wintervind]

And when I say technique, I mean any musicality as well

I am studying with a wonderful teacher who is helping me with the many flaws in my technique. Everytime I sit down to his Steinway model D I feel completely lost as the piano I spend the majority of my time practicing on is an older upright.

Within the first couple lessons he asked me what I was practicing on. After giving him a description of the dinosaur, he tells me I need to get a new piano. Then stating with great emphasis that "Every other instrumentalist will spend there live savings  on they BEST instrument they can get, except pianists!"

Embarassed, I realize that most ALL of my practicing, even through college, has been on poor quality  uprights.

My teacher wasn't shy. He told me that I should try to get the best piano I could afford and then consider saving for an even better one (a steinway model D?) as this was the only way my techinque could get better.
Needless to say I have purchaced a grand

So this leads to my many questions......

Why if the quality of an instrument is so important why is is that many professional music teachers, and students still have crappy pianos?

If music schools want to produce better pianists why not invest is some better instruments?

Why don't we pianist invest in the best instruments if it actually aids our progress? are we cheap? Poor?
 

[nyonyo]

Usually if you practice on a not so good piano and then take lesson or perform on a nice Steinway, you will play much better. Unless your bad piano has extremely light action that makes impossible for your fingers to press a normal action piano.

My piano is an Yamaha Upright (Disklavier). The action of my piano is standard which means that my piano has comparable action to the normal good piano. However, my teacher's Steinway is an old Steinway made 1937. It has richer and better sound, but the action is extremely bad. I had hard time to play on that piano. If somebody can play well on that piano, that person should have no problem playing on any other standard piano.

Good piano can produce so many textures and colors. It will enable for a pianist to practice to produce the best voice for particular piece. Bad piano will not enable a pianist to develop this kind of skills, because everything sounds the same.

Modern good piano such as Yamaha, Kawai, etc have standard action that will not cause any problem for anybody to practice and perform on Steinway. I tried so many Steinways to make sure that I will not have problem performing to modern Steinways. I am preparing for an amateur competition where Steinway is used as its official piano. Therefore, I have to make sure that I can perform on a Steinway. New Steinway has very identical feeling as Yamaha U1 and above. Because of this, I do not think I need to worry about getting a Steinway which is exceedingly expensive.....

[wintervind]

I should add that my teacher specifically stated that the only way to go is to have a grand, not an upright. When was the last time we performed on stage, in a concert hall on an upright piano?

[nyonyo]

Actually, for fast thrills or any fast movements, it is harder to play on an upright due to different action. If one has the money, just buy a grand. But if not, ugright will be good enough. Note that many piano people are so obessed with having a grand piano. Their life is not complete unless they have a Steinway grand piano or other expensive grand pianos.

[nyonyo]

My teacher wasn't shy. He told me that I should try to get the best piano I could afford and then consider saving for an even better one (a steinway model D?) as this was the only way my techinque could get better.
Needless to say I have purchaced a grand

Your teacher is insane!!!

[richard black]

Why if the quality of an instrument is so important why is is that many professional music teachers, and students still have crappy pianos?

You can learn on practically anything, many fine pianists have done. My wife is a far better pianist than me and she seems to have spent most of her learning years on some pretty shocking instruments, with only the occasional session on a decent grand. After all, unlike all other instrumentalists we don't take our instrument to concerts. Some of the best pianists I know have quite indifferent instruments at home. Gives you a bit of a lift when you get to the concert!

[wintervind]

You can learn on practically anything, many fine pianists have done. My wife is a far better pianist than me and she seems to have spent most of her learning years on some pretty shocking instruments, with only the occasional session on a decent grand. After all, unlike all other instrumentalists we don't take our instrument to concerts. Some of the best pianists I know have quite indifferent instruments at home. Gives you a bit of a lift when you get to the concert!

Thank you for the comment! I am sure that your wife is probably an incredible artist who had many years of great teachers to aid her in the development of her technique so playing or practicing on an upright isn't going to somehow weaken her technique. And by no means am I saying that all uprights are crap (infact some grands are crap)
What I am emphasising is the difference in the action of an upright compaired to a grand and also the qualities and range of sound that one ( I  ) need to develop a better technique.
What I find interesting is how I've struggled all these years with certain technical problems that seemed to have not been there before when I was practicing on grands (and uprights)
So in practicing on a crappy upright piano I am not going to move forward in technique development because it won't translate to playing on a grand unless I can practice on both to develop the different technique needed for each instrument

 

[dan101]

A better instrument is better for you in so many ways. Teachers occasionally have regular uprights because of economic reasons... most of the teachers that I know simply can't afford an amazing piano, but have a dream of purchasing one as soon as finances permit.

Chopin always stressed that his students should have the best possible instrument to play on. I agree. However, I also agree with my grandmother's old school philosophy. She'd say, "When a dancer can't dance, they say the floor is crooked". The bottom line is that a good pianist can perform well on practically any instrument.

Thanks for your post. This is a good topic. 

[wintervind]

A better instrument is better for you in so many ways. Teachers occasionally have regular uprights because of economic reasons... most of the teachers that I know simply can't afford an amazing piano, but have a dream of purchasing one as soon as finances permit.

Chopin always stressed that his students should have the best possible instrument to play on. I agree. However, I also agree with my grandmother's old school philosophy. She'd say, "When a dancer can't dance, they say the floor is crooked". The bottom line is that a good pianist can perform well on practically any instrument.

Thanks for your post. This is a good topic. 

And thank YOU for your reply

I feel as if I keep needing to clarify... I'm definately not saying that a high quality piano has to be expensive. It just has to have good qualities which if you are luck might be a free piano (very lucky )  or it might be thousands of dollars.
We are all driven by cost. We are musicians. Most of us don't make millions. But at the same time we'll spend say 10,000 on an SUV and 1500 on a piano that we are teaching/practicing on.

Once trained properly I am sure it doesn't really matter what you practice on. If you are in a bind I am sure practicing on a poor piano would be better than not practicing at all but in the long run it may not be good for musicality and technique.
What would happen to the great pianists if they practiced on casio keyboards for the rest of their careers? I'm sure their technique would change dramatically.


That brings me to another point.. Horowitz apparently only performed on his own instrument. He took it with him where ever he went . And I am assuming he practiced on it as well

[richy321]

Your teacher does have a point, however, he put it in a way that tells me he is something of a dogmatist and a snob.

There is no question that at the most advanced levels of playing, a grand piano with the highest degree of sensitivity and consistency is invaluable to develop such refined technique, but short of that level, a "good" grand or upright made for the consumer market is sufficient to support quite a respectable technique, as long as it is adequately sensitive and consistent.  (Needless to say, this does not include digital keyboards.) For example, look at the prodigious pianists that have come out of the Soviet system.  They don't have access to Steinway D's there, for regular practice anyway.  For them, a Petrof is considered a fine instrument, whereas in the West no reputable school would use such instruments.  Obviously, mediocre instruments are not an absolute barrier.

Richy



 

[zheer]

My teacher wasn't shy. He told me that I should try to get the best piano I could afford and then consider saving for an even better one (a steinway model D?) as this was the only way my techinque could get better.
Needless to say I have purchaced a grand

  Hmmmmm, i believe that a good upright is good enough for practice. Though if you are a concert pianist then a grand piano would help a lot since an upright has limitation.

[nyonyo]

She'd say, "When a dancer can't dance, they say the floor is crooked". The bottom line is that a good pianist can perform well on practically any instrument.

Cannot be said better!!!   As long as one has decent piano, if one is a good pianist, one can make use of that piano and produce beautiful sound. Those who get bothered by their pianos, they just upset of their inability. To be honest, any current Yamaha or Kawai pianos are good enough to produce world class pianist. Nobody really needs Steinway, Bechstein, Bosendorfer etc...But you have monies, it is good to own, but they won't make you a good pianist.

[richard black]

Horowitz apparently only performed on his own instrument. He took it with him where ever he went

Michelangeli too, and I'm sure others would like to! Horowitz had his piano prepared with unusually light action, I read somewhere on good authority. I can certainly sympathise with that.

[gerry]

The condition of the piano is truly important. You may not have the best sounding piano, but the regulation, the depth of the keystroke, the volume and condition of the hammers, the consistency are extremely important in developing proper technique and being able to later successfully transfer to better instruments. Some of these qualities can be implemented in lesser instruments and aleviate some of the shortcomings of not having an expensive piano. You can always point to pianists who overcame their early instruments, but can we be sure they wouldn't be even better had they had a decent piano to begin with?

[amelialw]

for almost 14 yrs, I practised on an old yamaha upright that always had buzzing/light keys and never stayed in tune. still I persisted. after I moved here, when I 1st stayed at my uncle's house I practised on a 90 yr old upright, till my parents bought a 50 yr old baby grand and placed it there. I only finally had a proper piano to play on after we moved into our own house and the owner sold us the Kawai Grand KG-2E with the house.

As for next year, I will be moving back to singapore for a B.A degree so it will depend alot on where I live but my dad said that he will buy me a good piano of my choice.

[slobone]

You asked, why are pianists the only instrumentalists who don't spend their life savings on the best instrument they can afford?

Maybe, because they can't take it with them when they travel?*





*except Horowitz...

[term]

Then stating with great emphasis that "Every other instrumentalist will spend there live savings  on they BEST instrument they can get, except pianists!"

What?!?
Who is he, does he swim in money?
The simple reason is, they are !#$%* expensive.

There are grands in schools and universities and many other places. If you're nice or know somebody there or if they're nice, you can go there and practise/play. Should be possible pretty much everywhere. I'm lucky to have the permission to go to a church (even got they key) and if i wanted, i could play there 8hrs almost every day.
It's true what they say about grands, they're easier to play than uprights.

[thalberg]

Why don't we pianist invest in the best instruments if it actually aids our progress? are we cheap? Poor?
 

I know many, many excellent pianists who went to top conservatories all over the country.  Only one of them makes more than 40,000 dollars a year.  The others make less.  None will be buying a Steinway D on that budget!

[wintervind]

I know many, many excellent pianists who went to top conservatories all over the country.  Only one of them makes more than 40,000 dollars a year.  The others make less.  None will be buying a Steinway D on that budget!

I know I know!!!
I'm definately not arguing that we all deserve a Steinways model D (even though I think we all do ) But a decient piano shouldn't been the last fiancial priority! That doesn't mean we need to save up to buy a model D and we won't get better technically if we don't have it. Just get a great instrument, what ever that is!
Cheers!

[daniloperusina]

All you actually need is a piano that works well.
If the regulation is off so that you can't trill, for example, then you can't practice trills. Obviously.
Apart from that, it takes some time to have such a sure technique that you don't need a specific piano to be able to play. More important than owning a 'great' piano is to get experienced on many different pianos. Then you sort of build a kind of 'repertoire' of pianos in you fingers. That means both uprights and grands.

The advantage of a top-of-the-range instrument is perhaps that the greater range of colours will open up more musical possibilities.

[slobone]

I know many, many excellent pianists who went to top conservatories all over the country.  Only one of them makes more than 40,000 dollars a year.  The others make less.  None will be buying a Steinway D on that budget!

And anyway, most of these Stradivariuses that violinists play are on semi-permanent loan from wealthy patrons. That kind of largesse isn't available to pianists because, as I pointed out, you can't take your instrument to the concert hall with you anyway!

Although now that I think of it, I did go to a recital here one time (I live in a small town in the Midwest), where the pianist had brought his piano with him. It was -- a Baldwin. He explained that he always had it shipped to his concert venues because most places only had Steinways.

[wintervind]

The advantage of a top-of-the-range instrument is perhaps that the greater range of colours will open up more musical possibilities.

Exactly

[dmc]

That brings me to another point.. Horowitz apparently only performed on his own instrument. He took it with him where ever he went . And I am assuming he practiced on it as well

True.  But that was after he'd become recognized as a world class player and could afford to take his instrument on tour.  It was not always that way.  There was a time when Horowitz struggled like all of us do.

[slobone]

I read a fascinating article in the New Yorker many years ago that followed a group of young pianists as they tried to launch their careers. One of them was sent on a government-sponsored tour of small towns in Latin America and had to play one appalling instrument after another. It forced him to become an expert piano technician, which I think is not a bad idea for any pianist.

The term these students used for these pianos was PSO -- "piano-shaped object." Is that a term in common use?

[cforlana]

Within the first couple lessons he asked me what I was practicing on. After giving him a description of the dinosaur, he tells me I need to get a new piano. Then stating with great emphasis that "Every other instrumentalist will spend there live savings  on they BEST instrument they can get, except pianists!

This strikes me - WHY should pianists spend life savings on a great grand piano?? I understand what he is saying, and agree that playing on the great instrument is inspiring and if you can afford it without putting yourself in financial strain that's great.  BUT in reality, pianists and musicians in general don't make good money (what is it, 45K average?) and from a financial and logical point of view - what kind of future are we planning on having, where is financial independence, stability? When a pianist invests 60K in a really awesome grand piano, how can he/she afford mortgage, new car, travel and leisure expenses, when most of us won't become internationally proclaimed pianists making high salaries.... Well, it just makes me sad that in this day and age pianists are not as valued as many other professions. Just my own opinion.

[dnephi]

Actually, I've found that when I've practiced on a grand, the action has been much better for my technique.

Uprights let you "get away" with so much.

You really do need a grand, even if it's a cheap one.

[jinfiesto]

New Steinway has very identical feeling as Yamaha U1 and above. Because of this, I do not think I need to worry about getting a Steinway which is exceedingly expensive.....

Bull Crap they feel the same. You must have some sort of tactile disorder. Steinways feel nothing like Yamahas, and sound nothing like Yamahas either. Given, I've played on a lot of crappy Steinways too.

[thalberg]

Actually, I've found that when I've practiced on a grand, the action has been much better for my technique.

Uprights let you "get away" with so much.

You really do need a grand, even if it's a cheap one.

I totally second that.  When I got my first grand, I practiced on it all the time and I have never been able to tolerate an upright since.

It has a lot to do with the action. 

You can get a bad grand for pretty cheap so it's within the range of most people to get one.

I have not read all these posts, but to answer wintervind, I think the main reason pianists will not spend their life savings on a piano is that they simply cannot take it with them to the performance.

My piano teacher bought a Steinway D, and when cellist Lynn Harrell came to visit her he said, "Isn't it a bit like having a Stradivarius and never being able to take it out of the case?"

[pianochick93]

I have an ancient upright at home, it isn't in tune with anything else except itself. I have no problem changing from that one to another piano, unless that other piano has really heavy action, which my piano doesn't.

With the grand/upright thing. At school we have 2 really nice upright pianos, one of which is just a basic upright, the other which has a sotenuto pedal, and really nice sound quality. My piano teacher's piano has really nice tone, but I find the keys way too heavy.

[gaest]

There's another angle to look at here.  As an amateur with no intent of becoming a professional, I would still be incredibly thrilled to have an expensive Steinway or Bosendorfer grand for my own personal enjoyment.  The finer the instrument, the more delicacy and nuance you can instill in your music.  What's the good of having a "practice" instrument which you just don't enjoy as much as that grand in your teacher's studio?  "Practice" is still making music, and playing for yourself should be just as enjoyable (aurally, at least) as playing that concert grand for an audience.  There's an inherent satisfaction in being able to produce beautiful music, even if you're the only one hearing it.  Even if you can't pack up your piano and take it to your recitals, it's still there at home for you. 

I just see no reason why any true lover of music wouldn't want to have the best instrument financially possible, even if the only audience is yourself.  Who cares if you can take it with you or not?  Your instrument at home is for you.

Hmmm... not sure if I explained myself too well.

[danny elfboy]

Your teacher is insane!!!

Absoluely agree
In my conservatory (and I'm in europe where we don't all live in big suburba houses) the majority of students and future concert-pianist live in small apartments where a grand piano would never fit in a room. That has never prevented them from improving and going on with their studying. In fact not only I know several graduated pianists who have never possessed a grand piano but there are european famous pianists who graduated from playing just on an upright which is absolutely and completely possible and common.

A very cheap piano with a bad mechanics might compromise your playing and stress your muscles and ligamens and joint. But practicing on a good upright is just beneficial, cause it's actually the opposite of what daniel says. A grand piano allows you to get away with more technical flaws, the action is more receptive because it is vertical and not horizontal and hence it's way EASIER to play fast repeated notes and legato notes. What this means is that becoming very good at this on an upright will mean that you sound even better on a grand.

But to say that you need a grand to become a good pianist is like saying that you need the most expensive pots and robots to become a cook, while some of the greatest cooks on this planet have learned everything about their skill on their poor old house with their poor old tolls. One of the best teacher in my school had been so poor at some point in his life that he kept practicing for more than a year on a wood-board where he drew keys with a pencil.

It's actually out of the worst situations, the worst poorest tools and the simplest means that we really TRAIN our skills and creativity to its best. In fact someone who can't play something on an upright but can on a grand is using the grand to create the illusion that he/she can do something he/she can't. But you really know a technique and how to play passage when you can play it even on the worst condition possible not when you can play it only as long as everything is perfect. It's the reason why here football players are asked often to train under the rain, with the field completely soaked and reduced visual. Because if they can do it or can train themselves to do it in such extreme and unideal situation they are really ready to make their best in the best situation. On the other hand training just in the best situation might give you the illusion that you're "better than you actually are" ... the truth is that when you recreate the perfect conditions a lot of people seems able to do a lot of stuff, but only those able to maintain the same level of skill and control even in the worst conditions possible are the real talented ones.

[electrodoc]

I agree with Gaest. A good piano is a pleasure to play, abad piano is not. If one does not like the instrument then one probably does less playing.

 I bought my first good grand earlier this year and it is a pleasure to play. Previously I had a less good instrument which made my hearing tired after about an hour. Now, I can play for as long as I wish without tiring.

The point here is about desirability vs necessity. A reasonably good upright will suffice for much of the time but a good instrument will allow the pianist to bring  out more subtlety in the music.

For me the sound and the "feel" of the instrument is important. I don't know whether others have noticed it but I seem to feel the sound through my fingers. I frequently know when my instrument is beginning to go out of tune by the way the note "feels" before I actualy hear it.

I suggest that whatever the instrument the most important factors are: to keep it in reasonable tune; to pay attention to the regulation; and, if necessary, to have it voiced. Having said that I do appreciate that students have to accept whatever practice instruments their institution offers. The luxury of a good instrument of one's own perhaps comes later in life when necessities such as mortagages, family expenses, etc. have been paid.

I do feel sympathetic to a young person who is struggling to become a first class musician but has to almost fight a poor instrument. My advice is (when you can afford to) try as many different instruments as possible both uprights and grands and then get the one that you like the most that is within your budget.

Best of luck to you all.

electrodoc

[nyonyo]

Bull Crap they feel the same. You must have some sort of tactile disorder. Steinways feel nothing like Yamahas, and sound nothing like Yamahas either. Given, I've played on a lot of crappy Steinways too.

Well regulated Steinway feels like Yamaha. Only bad regulated Steinways feel heavy and stiff. Sound, however, is different.

[lostinidlewonder]

I disagree that a better piano will always make you play better, but I always like to disagree

I believe that a good musician can express their ideas and use their instrument as best they can no matter what quality instrument they have. I even practice on a crappy old Yamaha electric keyboard during the evenings so not to disturb other people and it hasn't effected my ability one bit. I use to play on an old Clavinova for 4 years and never touched a better instrument except for concerts or at students homes, I didn't feel like I had lost my ability for subtle control of sound that you can only achieve on higher quality instruments.

I hear the excuse from pro musicians, the performance was bad because the instrument was bad or the acoustics was bad. This is a lame excuse in my opinion, a good musician can play on any instrument in any room dimension regardless. 2 weeks ago I was up far north West Australia and played on a 100 yr old honky tonk upright with bottle caps stuck all over it. I played for 1 hour and entertained the entire venue. I knew I couldn't play Classical music so I kept to Rag time, Blues, Cocktail Piano etc. It sounded perfect.

Too many musicians play the same way all the time, and they cannot adapt to instruments good or bad, let alone adapt to different sized rooms. I've listened to some international pro concert pianists in private and they play as if they are in a concert hall, even if they are in a  small room! That is just weak imo.

[danny elfboy]

I do feel sympathetic to a young person who is struggling to become a first class musician but has to almost fight a poor instrument. My advice is (when you can afford to) try as many different instruments as possible both uprights and grands and then get the one that you like the most that is within your budget.

Best of luck to you all.

electrodoc

I agree
As far as becoming the best pianist you can be owning a grand piano is not necessary and in fact the struggles caused by the harder and less responsive mechanics of an upright are a good exercise that will improve one's technique (everyone plays better on a grand because it's more responsive but this doesn't mean the grand is improving them just not pushing their "adaptation" so far as an upright would.

Necessity aside a grand piano is a pleasure for the eyes and the ears for sure and probably makes up more eager to practice.

I agree that there's a limit to the "low quality" of a piano.
Someone way into virtuoso repertory can practice without problems and limitations on an upright but can't in a small kid-study piano with an old and not working admortization and completely out of tune. But a good upright is always better (as sound is concerned) than a baby grand, while the baby grand has the advantage of having the action of grand.
But this might not be such an advantage since we get more hard practice from practicing on an upright. That's like trying to jump as high as possible versus wearing big belt-weight while jumping; just imagine what happens when after a months of jumping with weights on you remove the weight and try to jump ...

[rc]

Hmmm... not sure if I explained myself too well.

You said it better than I would have!

I would add that if I had a nice piano at home, I would make a point to play it for people who visit.  It's meant to be heard!  The real 'practice instrument' is a digital - which is a great thing!  I don't think it would be too difficult for a starving student to save some money each month for a decent digital that can fit anywhere.

For the past two years I've saved up enough money that I could buy a decent baby grand... My problem with owning a nice piano is having somewhere to put it.