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Topic: Digital Piano, Action and Dynamics  (Read 2508 times)

Offline shingo

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Digital Piano, Action and Dynamics
on: December 03, 2007, 04:37:03 PM
Hey,
     Having recently been inspired to renovate my playing style and emphasise dynamics moreso than before, I have tried numerous techniques and payed specific attention to them in my current repetoire. However one question which I wish to ask, maybe a bit of a hopeful one, is that are the expression of dynamics somewhat harder to evoke on digital Pianos in comparison with acoustics, including uprights and grands?
     I say this because at the moment on my humble Casio (AP-40, quite old now) it can be hard to play softly without risking either an abrupt sudden jerk of a note when the key is finally compressed, or, no note at all. The sudden jerk seems to be the symptom of note being pressed but not having the action of a hammer so I will tend to increase my pressure and then the jerk comes. So instead I find myself compensating by increasing the volume of my f and ff etc rather than being able to decrease my p and pp.
     I would like to note that yes this Piano has touch sensetive keys and the accompanying features and the events I am talking about are not as dramatic as they perhaps sound when reading but notable nontheless when you know the instrument. Is this purely down to technique or can the action be at least to some degree a limitation in gaining such dynamics?
     Thanks in advance.

Offline epf

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Re: Digital Piano, Action and Dynamics
Reply #1 on: December 03, 2007, 05:34:42 PM
I have a Privia PX-800 (Casio) and have not experienced what you mention. To be fair, the PX-800 is the top of their line and relatively new. They claim to have sampled at three different levels and then they filter to get a sound that approximates the force with which the key is pressed. Many of the older keyboards, of which yours is one, tended to be velocity sensitive but still had only a single sample so velocity was translated into volume more than anything else. As a result, you got a sudden attack that did not correspond to a very soft touch. Modern digital pianos seem to have resolved this problem.

What one does lose, however, is (in general) color. Since you are restricted to producing sounds based upon the samples, you can never get a sound outside the range of the sample and the filter that is applied to that sample. For most amateur pianists this problem can range from "problem, I don't have a problem" to "that's pretty annoying."

I use my digital for most of my practicing since the Mason & Hamlin is in the living room and my wife likes to watch TV and claims the sound of the piano makes that difficult (imagine that!). For 90% of what I do the PX-800 is perfectly adequate. In fact, I'm probably not a good enough pianist to really notice any limitations.

Ed

Offline shingo

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Re: Digital Piano, Action and Dynamics
Reply #2 on: December 03, 2007, 06:29:23 PM
Many of the older keyboards, of which yours is one, tended to be velocity sensitive but still had only a single sample so velocity was translated into volume more than anything else. As a result, you got a sudden attack that did not correspond to a very soft touch. Modern digital pianos seem to have resolved this problem.

What one does lose, however, is (in general) color. Since you are restricted to producing sounds based upon the samples, you can never get a sound outside the range of the sample and the filter that is applied to that sample. For most amateur pianists this problem can range from "problem, I don't have a problem" to "that's pretty annoying."

Yes that is exactly my current experience. I am not suggesting I am a good enough pianist to have any real limitation either despite my more primitive samples etc, it was just an observation. It's not like I can afford a new piano any time soon but when I do I will be buying an acoustic as I will probably have a house of my own by then.
     Thanks for your enlightening response.

Offline daniloperusina

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Re: Digital Piano, Action and Dynamics
Reply #3 on: December 04, 2007, 01:16:38 AM
I think you can perhaps answer that yourself by finding an acoustic piano and try the dynamic response and see how you feel about the difference.

On an acoustic the key is a lever which at the other end is connected to another system of levers which propel the hammer towards the strings. Of course. It lets you control the speed of the hammer as well as some more subtle things. But it's worth knowing that there's more to it than that.

For example:
The surface of the striking point should be even and on an absolute zero degrees vs the strings (so that not one of the three strings in the treble gets hit harder than any other).

The felt of the hammer must be voiced so that at softer playing the sound is not only of less dB, but of another quality as well. Less loud and softer, rounder (less overtones). Contrary, on louder playing, the sound gets louder and clearer (more overtones). This is possible because the felt on the hammer is elastic. But this elasticity changes with the amount of force used; less force=more elastic, more force=less elastic. And the more elastic the hammer is the less it excites the overtones and viceversa. When the overtones are less prominent we perceive the tone as softer, rounder, more mellow. And vice versa.

Older pianos that are not well maintained, or newer ones that are not properly prepared, might not work properly on these matters and will hence also have problems with control of dynamics.

Also, all the distances within the action (hammer to string at rest, for example) and frictions must be within the reasonable. It's typical for old pianos to have problems here. These things also contribute to how well you can control the dynamics.

Offline tanocsi

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Re: Digital Piano, Action and Dynamics
Reply #4 on: December 08, 2007, 02:44:48 PM
These are mostly digital stage pianos, but you might want to take a look at them.   Huh I own a Roland RD-700SX (with granded hammer action) which acceptably imitates piano hammer action, better then most digital pianos, or any cheap upright/grand. The touch and keyboard action reminds me of a Steinway. However, probably the best digital piano
on the market is the Clavia Nord Stage 88 (though I'm not so sure about the keyboard action).

Yamaha P-70/70S ......................................................................600$
https://www.yamahasynth.com/products/p70/specifications.html

Yamaha P-80 (MIPA) ……………………………………….1100$

Yamaha P-90 ………………………………………………900$
https://www.yamahasynth.com/products/p90/specifications.html

Yamaha P-120/120S .............................................................
https://www.yamahasynth.com/products/p120/specifications.html

Yamaha P-140/140S ……………………………………………1200$




https://www.yamahasynth.com/products/p140/specifications.html

Yamaha CP300 .......................................................2200$ https://www.yamahasynth.com/products/cp300/index.html

Yamaha P250 (MIPA)..........................................................2000$ https://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail/0,,CNTID%253D15249%2526CTID%253D205800%2526ATRID%253D20%2526DETYP%253DATTRIBUTE,00.html




Kawai ES4 ..............................................................1800$ https://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/es_4spec.html

Kawai CA-X ........................................................... https://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/ca_x/ca_xspec.html

Kawai MP4 .............................................................1100$ https://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/mp_4spec.html

Kawai MP8 .............................................................2000$ https://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/mp_8spec.html




Roland FP2 ..............................................................1300$ https://www.roland.com/products/en/FP-2/specs.html

Roland FP-5 ............................................................1500$ https://www.roland.com/products/en/FP-5/specs.html

Roland RD-170 …………………………………………………………….900$ https://www.roland.com/products/en/RD-170/specs.html

Roland RD700SX ....................................................2200$ 1800$ https://www.roland.com/products/en/RD-700SX/specs.html

Roland RD700 (MIPA)........................................................ 1500-1800$ https://www.roland.com/products/en/RD-700/specs.html




Kurzweil SP88X .....................................................900$ https://www.kurzweilmusicsystems.com/products.html?Id=356

Kurzweil K2600X(S) ..............................................2800$ https://www.kurzweilmusicsystems.com/products.html?Id=351




Korg SP250 .............................................................900$ https://www.korg.com/gear/info.asp?a_prod_no=SP250&category_id=1

Korg SP500 .............................................................1300$ https://www.korg.com/gear/info.asp?a_prod_no=SP500&category_id=1

Korg Triton Extreme 88 (MIPA)………………………………………………….2300$ https://72.14.221.104/search?q=cache:WstyAJgtyJUJ:www.zzounds.com/item--KORTRITEX88+korg+triton+88+price&hl=ro&gl=ro&ct=clnk&cd=1

Korg Oasys (MIPA)…………………………………………………………………10000$ https://www.korg.com/gear/prod_info.asp?A_PROD_NO=OASYS




Clavia Nord Stage 88 (MIPA)..............................................3300$ https://www.clavia.se/products/nordstage/technical.htm




Casio Privia Px300 (hammer action)………………………………….700$ https://www.priviapiano.com/products/PX-300/content/tech_specs/

Casio Privia Px310 ……………………………………………..700$ https://www.priviapiano.com/products/PX-310/content/tech_specs/


There is also a very good software piano: the Sythogy Ivory. Very good dynamics, but it costs some money, since you need a PC/laptop, a digital piano with a good keyboard action (piano-like: something like the Roland RD-700SX), and the software itself. Listen!


https://www.synthogy.com/pages/audio.html

This is the closest digital technology got to the sound of a real piano. And it really is darn close (together with the Clavia Nord Stage 88)! You can compare them yourself.
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