fingers glued to the keys

[PaulNaud]

What I have been skirting around in this thread is not an arbitrary "argument" to the ideas that have been presented, but in fact a very specific system of posture and movements that are (of course) easier to discuss and understand in person (so the point of me even responding in this thread is probably mainly for my own self). 

You should watch carefully different well-known pianists, you'll notice that each one of them has their own position on the keyboard. That's why their sound is also different and their style is unmistakable. Their technique is different. Some play from above the keyboard, some others are glued to the keyboard.

[point of grace]

and it's best to practice a variety of touches.

good point

[paulpiano]

No matter what the approach, one must take note of what is actually happening while using it and, be willing to make adjustments if necessary.

It's not a matter of what is actually happening  it's really about sound.

What sounds good in playing is a variety of sounds, and it's best to practice a variety of touches.

Can you sound good and not be relaxed, or have pain in your arms and fingers?

[counterpoint]

Can you sound good and not be relaxed, or have pain in your arms and fingers?

Of course, that's possible. And it's very common in the playing of professional pianists!

I do not propagate to play in a painful way, but that's what many people - even the best pianists - do.

[m1469]

It's not a matter of what is actually happening  it's really about sound.

Interesting point of view.  So, you are suggesting that the sound is not really 'what's happening' ? 

[m1469]

You should watch carefully different well-known pianists, you'll notice that each one of them has their own position on the keyboard. That's why their sound is also different and their style is unmistakable. Their technique is different. Some play from above the keyboard, some others are glued to the keyboard.

And what is your point, exactly ?

[paulpiano]

Interesting point of view.  So, you are suggesting that the sound is not really 'what's happening' ? 

From a scientific point of view we should be able to say that a certain motion (physically speaking) is going to produce a certain sound. Unfortunately, there is no such study done yet on this matter. From my experience at the piano, it seems that the ears guide the body and not the other way round. Pedagogues deducted from their experiences some general rules related to the physical aspect of piano playing, and because their image of the musical content differs from one another, they came to different conclusions about the apparatus of the pianist.

[m1469]

From a scientific point of view we should be able to say that a certain motion (physically speaking) is going to produce a certain sound. Unfortunately, there is no such study done yet on this matter. From my experience at the piano, it seems that the ears guide the body and not the other way round. Pedagogues deducted from their experiences some general rules related to the physical aspect of piano playing, and because their image of the musical content differs from one another, they came to different conclusions about the apparatus of the pianist.

And this relates to what ?

[paulpiano]

And this relates to what ?

I think it's very difficult to teach properly the physical aspect of piano playing. It tends to mislead the piano student. That's why it's very difficult to find a good piano teacher.

[m1469]

I think it's very difficult to teach properly the physical aspect of piano playing. It tends to mislead the piano student. That's why it's very difficult to find a good piano teacher.

King me.

[Bob]

.

[pianowolfi]

Me is not understand. Is that referring to this:

https://www.kingme.nl/

 

[journeyyourmind]

   Everyone has different techniques which originate from different sources....
My teacher took master classes with Glenn Gould and Richter(her contemporaries not her teachers) in Europe before coming to america, their techniques were very similiar as OPPOSED to thise like Arrau and others who use the "arrau" technique(wrist motion fingers falling into keys). Despite his playing being amazing and her loving him too, she still disagrees with his technique and I use the more well known and widely accepted technique which has worded WONDERS for me.
   The articulation and distance from which you seperate your fingers from the key is an art itself and every part of your playing including physical can be passionate just like what you hear. Just never give up good, useful, and common sense technique for any reason whatsoever. And remember book publishers make many mistakes.

[m]

My teacher took master classes with Glenn Gould and Richter...

Reminds me a famous anecdote about the "student of great Paderewsky (or was it Hoffmann?)".
As far as I know neither Gould or (especially) Richter ever gave master classes.

their techniques were very similiar as OPPOSED to thise like Arrau and others who use the "arrau" technique.

mmmm. Are you trying to say that Gould and Richter's techniques are similar

Despite his playing being amazing and her loving him too, she still disagrees with his technique and I use the more well known and widely accepted technique which has worded WONDERS for me.

So what kind of technique are we talking about? And how HIS technique is different from some implied "WELL KNOWN and WIDELY ACCEPTED", which worked (I believe) WONDERS for you?

   The articulation and distance from which you seperate your fingers from the key is an art itself and every part of your playing including physical can be passionate just like what you hear. Just never give up good, useful, and common sense technique for any reason whatsoever. And remember book publishers make many mistakes.

I very much sympathise your passion. I wish I understood though, what we are talking about, here.

[PaulNaud]

As far as I know neither Gould or (especially) Richter ever gave master classes.

You're absolutely right neither ever gave master classes!

Glenn Gould and Richter..... their techniques were very similiar as OPPOSED to thise like Arrau and others who use the "arrau" technique(wrist motion fingers falling into keys).

Are you kidding?
On the contrary, Richter and Gould have opposite techniques.

[journeyyourmind]

  For one she did not take lessons from them, they were her contemporaries. For two, I am not saying their techniques are similiar but they they are far away from Arrau's technique both. Although I see the mistatement. They are similiar in that they do not use thr wrists to guide them around the keys. Notice how Arrau uses his wrists. Some of you here on the forum act like you know everything when you don't....


 Unfortunately for you(well not so unfortuante then huh? ) yes Richter did take master classes(although as I understand you thought I meant as in teaching huh?) as for Gould I am not sure but he was her contemporary as she met him as well. If it was not a "master" class it was another sort of high level class if you understand. My teacher is from Romania. And no, the classes were not in Romania. She started at 8 years old and 6 months performed the Bach Dminor concerto, and then left her house on her own to study. She is a prodigy and an amazing person as well.

[danny elfboy]

When one learn to master the moment of contraction and release of each finger then all the fingers can rest on the keys (i.e. no need to lift non playing fingers) and when one will contract and lower at the knuckle joint to play the others will not play but remain silent and rested on the keys.

[journeyyourmind]

I am sure everyone has slight variations but there are main things such as arm motion and how you use you wrists which are key to your technique. You play into the keys not onto them etc...

[danny elfboy]

journey could you elaborate what technique you promote and prefer since it's not very clear from your post?

[journeyyourmind]

   Let me note also I am no master class student myself, I am 18 years old and will be attending my first term of real university degree study this fall, though I have been very succesful what concerns my audition for the university. Let me also note I live in the United States not in Europe(I am a U.S. citizen of Dutch heritage). She moved away from Europe obviously after getting a degree/degrees there.
 
  As for the technique I believe, works, I have already said very much... if she told me a name for the technique I have forgotten but will ask again. However there may very well be no name. I have been studying with her for 3 years now and she has done so much for me. She doesn't want me to leave her but knows I have to, I will remember everything she says. All I can say is I do not believe the Arrau technique is good for everyone because it seriously hindered my wrist.(persistent sharp pain in my right wrist) I avoided going to a certain University because I knew they were teaching this technique there. I wish I was experienced enough to be able to differentiate between every single type of technique but before this teacher I was being taught by an amateur what concerns classical. I don't want to say anything wrong, it really is something you must show someone.

Maybe if someone says something specific I could agree or disagree but I can't go into specifics on exactly how I play. All I say is independent fingers and playing into the piano for your chords technique. Relaxed wrists and shoulders. There were other many good posts on this thread, just read around and be wise with what you believe.

[PaulNaud]

And he was rigth. All other approaches are wannabes who can't play like this one.


You are a funny person, Thierry. According to you, for example, G. Sokolov is a wannabe.... Eh...

Can you explain yourself Marik?

[gyzzzmo]

I have the idea that lots of people are talking alot of rubbish here. Keeping fingers close to the keys is only possible in few (slow) pieces. Since your fingers often have to hop from left to right, 'glueing' is just something people say to look great.
The next 'practical nonsense' people love to state, is like "the weight has to come from the shoulders!!!" Sounds intelligent and like that person is a great pianist. But this is only usefull if you play slow chords. You cant drop your shoulders in every note you play can you?

But about glueing, Schubert's imprompus no3 op90 is a great example where glueing  makes sense.

Gyzzzmo

[journeyyourmind]

That's precisely where you are absolutely wrong Gyzzmo and do not understand you are not putting weight DOWN you are putting weight FORWARD and DOWNWARD at the SAME TIME playing INTO the keys. There simple enough? If you go only downward you SERIOUSLY limit your ability to control and create dynamics.(and btw sorry if the caps are intimidating) and NEVER EVER do you drop your shoulders! Are you kidding me?? Like I said your shoulders(if what i think you mean by dropping shoulders is litteraly releasing the tension from bad position to correct position) should be DOWN all the time and you PUSH them in for chords, and even then you are GUIDING with your arms.

If you are trying to say that the weight does not come from your shoulders for chords technique then you are obviously playing some strange technique that the rest of us do not. And if you are trying to claim that the idea is absurd then you are a fool, you should never mock a pianist for saying weight comes from the shoulders. And just because a great pianist may not follow his own technique always, it doesn't mean that they don't use it in practice. You may see them slip when they get emotional and do something, but this is a serperate factor from the technique.(of course you are never going to be always at the same exact position you have to move after all)

I am not saying glue your fingers to the keys btw either, I would agree with that sentiment as would anyone...

[PaulNaud]

You are a funny person, Thierry. According to you, for example, G. Sokolov is a wannabe

I listened to Sokolov on youtube. He is a great pianist. Do you see, Marik, something different in his playing? May be he plays from above the keyboard, he has a beautiful sound. It reminds me of Gilels playing.

[paulpiano]

I listened to Sokolov on youtube. He is a great pianist. Do you see, Marik, something different in his playing? May be he plays from above the keyboard, he has a beautiful sound. It reminds me of Gilels playing.

Listen to
https://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=9eQyx3PIXsg&feature=related
and also
https://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=pR6kpZzOGdo
Fabulous performance!

[journeyyourmind]

I personally like it alot.    He's got incredible dynamics!!

[paulpiano]

Listen to this one too:
https://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=5LR86sgO6C4&feature=related

[thierry13]

I didn't like his precipitato particularly ... I think it lacks momentum/energy, the actual precipitation. The other aspects of the playing are of course perfect, tough.