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Topic: Show students how subtle right and wrong is at the piano.  (Read 1905 times)

Offline lostinidlewonder

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As this year draws to an end I like to reflect upon experiences drawn from this years lessons.

One thing I have found in all my students beginner-advanced is that they learn a great deal from being shown how subtle the difference between good+bad playing a phrase of music can be. With beginners I identify the exact physical movement they make which is rough, I reproduce it for them (or exaggerate it) pinpointing exactly which movement I disagree with. Then demonstrate the exact change they need to make, which often required only a very slight change to their original physical movement.

I will identify which bounds in the score they must repeat so that they train the change to their technique. I will also break this up in as many steps as they require so that there is no struggle to achieve a correct repetition of the passage. This is always different for each student, the beginners need a lot more direction, the more advanced usually only need a single idea to make the change to their technique.

From this I have found I am putting more little marks on their sheet music then referring them to their notebook which I have written this physical change they must act towards in a way which they can understand. It makes their study more secure and they do not have to mindlessly repeat until they get it. I will also highlight where this improvement to their movement repeats (or is very similar) throughout the piece, this application of knowledge makes it more efficient to master small passages.

Many of my older students from doing this do not mind laboring on small passages where otherwise they would have simply played over it and continued on. They can appreciate the small difference needed in their playing and can act to improve it and observe this improvement.

When you as a teacher see a student play a piece with technique which is just very slightly off, how do you act to improve it? General comments rarely help unless the student is advanced enough to form their physical playing at will. Even advanced students need to be described things in details now and then. I really like to show the small difference between good and bad playing and higlighting it through their own subtle bad playing.


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Offline slobone

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Re: Show students how subtle right and wrong is at the piano.
Reply #1 on: December 15, 2007, 06:57:39 AM
lostinidlewonder, how do you feel about actually playing a passage for a student? Many teachers think it's a bad idea, because the student should be learning how to play in their own style, not just copying the teacher. But I think it can sometimes be a useful shortcut, especially for a student who's capable of playing better but just doesn't realize how they actually sound.

Maybe this has already been dealt with on another thread?

Offline counterpoint

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Re: Show students how subtle right and wrong is at the piano.
Reply #2 on: December 15, 2007, 08:19:53 AM
two remarks from me

1.  Yes, it's true, that the difference between good and bad is often very subtle. Only a single note a slight bit too loud or too late or too short - and the whole whole phrase is ruined.

2. Because of 1. it's almost impossible to correct such things just by correcting movements. The control of the playing has to do with the preliminary imagination of the sound and the listening to what your playing really sounds like afterwards. Correction of movements can be helpful in some cases, but that's only a very small part of the work. Ear training is the biggest part.
If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline slobone

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Re: Show students how subtle right and wrong is at the piano.
Reply #3 on: December 15, 2007, 07:21:13 PM
In response to counterpoint, I think learning the piano is an interplay between being consciously aware of how you're moving your shoulders, arms, wrist, and fingers, and just forgetting about it and going for the "holistic value" of the music.

It's often a lot easier to imagine how you want the music to sound, and just do whatever you need to do to achieve it. But I think students, especially in the early stages, also need to develop good muscular habits.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Show students how subtle right and wrong is at the piano.
Reply #4 on: December 16, 2007, 09:44:26 AM
lostinidlewonder, how do you feel about actually playing a passage for a student? Many teachers think it's a bad idea, because the student should be learning how to play in their own style, not just copying the teacher.

I feel only encouraged to play a passage for a student if they are "missing the point" technically and/or musically. I really do not wish them to mimic me exactly, that is impossible, but to do what I ask for (which improves the effortlessness physically to produce your desired sound) in your own way. This is hard to explain in a few words, but I have a good sense of knowing if they are on the wrong side or the righter side of their technical/musical playing. My option I give them only will ever be enforced if the student admits to me that it is easier for their hands, however I do have to impose my vito over their decision especially if they are beginners/intermediate AND I cannot fathom how doing it their way feels normal.

I definately do not mould a student to play like me, but I can definately see the changes in the students way which improves their ease of their playing. Before imposing my ideas upon students I must ask them whether what I ask for really is easier for them or not. More often than not they will agree agree it is easier, but sometimes they refuse to agree.

So when I ask the student to judge whether the physically changes I require from their technique is indeed easier for them, I have to ensure that 1) they fully understand logically what I am asking for 2) They can see what they have to change in their playing 3) That the change they make has an observable feeling to their hand that they can compare to their original method to decide which is easier. 4) That they agree that my suggestion makes things easier for them.

As you speak with a student, the diagnosis you go through as to what you have prescribed them must be spot on. I know the hands of all my students in great detail, I know exactly how it feels just by watching it play from experience watching them. How can I describe my method to getting into my students hands and feeling what they feel?  I developed this diagnosis through experience observing individual hands not from text books.


1.  Yes, it's true, that the difference between good and bad is often very subtle. Only a single note a slight bit too loud or too late or too short - and the whole whole phrase is ruined.

2. Because of 1. it's almost impossible to correct such things just by correcting movements. The control of the playing has to do with the preliminary imagination of the sound and the listening to what your playing really sounds like afterwards. Correction of movements can be helpful in some cases, but that's only a very small part of the work. Ear training is the biggest part.
I believe you are talking about two things and trying to unite them together as one, that is the technical and musical side to music. I find this very difficult, it is like Einstein's search for the Grand Unified Theory.... well maybe that is an exaggeration :)  However, usually if a physical movement is inaccurate this adversely effects the sound that is produced. I see many of my advanced students control inefficient technique and however produce a wonderful desired sound. In this case my alterations to the technique not necessarily aims to improve sound but rather minimise the effort to produce it.

So the musical side to playing first has to be one trained by the ear. If a student play an accent or weak staccato then you simply highlight the difference make them observe it and understand it, and off you go. Sometimes the bad sound can be from bad technique, in that case you first target the fingering and movement of the body, make them understand how to consume less effort, then you ask them to apply it to the correct sound via technical application and listening training.

Urg my heads spinning  :P




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Offline counterpoint

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Re: Show students how subtle right and wrong is at the piano.
Reply #5 on: December 16, 2007, 10:58:31 AM
Sometimes the bad sound can be from bad technique,

Bad technique? What's that?  ::)
If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Show students how subtle right and wrong is at the piano.
Reply #6 on: December 17, 2007, 01:35:20 AM
Bad technique? What's that?  ::)
Are you just provoking me ? :) Bad technique is like an inefficient marathon runner. They move excessively and waste their energy. However some can be inefficient and still run very well and even win events! But in the long run it will adversely effect their endurance.

My concept of good technique is one which the hand is kept as relaxed as possible. The Chopin hand form is a compass (RH resting on E Gb Ab Bb B ). I try to act against unnecessary expansion or contraction away from this natural hand shape, I try to keep the fingers as flattened as possible (however this is not universally applicable it is more often than not used).

When you play your hand should not continually change shape if it's not required. If you must change the shape of your hand it is done in such a way that it required least amount of effort. Sometimes  I see abrupt changes to the hand form instead of a smooth gradual one. For instance if I altered a hanon (I'll use hanon because it is a simple model to discuss) like this:

RH: (CE) F G A (Aoctaves 5th not moved, thumb expands downwards ) G F E ...
      (12) 3 4 5 (15)                                                                     4 3 2

Good technique has a gradual expansion of the thumb rather than a hurried and rush movement to the octaves, then a gradual contraction back to the original position. While the hand plays the EFG the thumb makes it way slowly to the lower A. This is only a microscopic window into technique but certainly there is very subtle difference between playing this right or wrong. Gradual movements are difficult to observe when playing pieces because a rushed movement can be controlled and mastered even thought it isn't as efficient as a gradual movement.

Sometimes bad technique is not about hand form or moving smoothly but rather moving unnecessarily. In all music we have chunks of notes which can be played without moving the hands position. I call them movement groups and often circle them on the score if a student moves unnecessarily when playing the group.

Thus I see most music like this

[Movement group] --->movement to next movement group [Movement group] --->Movement to next movement group etc

If there are problems in a movement group it is because of fingering, if there are problems in the movement to another movement group it is because of inability to control the shape of one movement group and altering to the other in a smooth motion. This is very general stuff and has tentacles touching many different aspects of playing your instrument, but it's the basic thought process going on when determining how to initially physically tackle a phrase of music.
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