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Opening of Haydn's sonata Hob. XVI: 30 (Read 4587 times)

Offline PaulNaud

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Opening of Haydn's sonata Hob. XVI: 30
« on: December 15, 2007, 09:31:49 PM »
I would like to know how most of you play the first notes of the first movement (Allegro), considering the slur that is over F#, E, D, E and ends before the bar line? Do you separate the last E from the C# of the next bar?
We've got the same problem in the opening of his Divertimento Hob. XVI: G1 :
The slur written over D,C,B,A ends before the bar line, but the motive ends on G in the next bar.
Music soothes the savage breast.
Paul Naud

piano sheet music of Sonata


Offline paulpiano

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Re: Opening of Haydn's sonata Hob. XVI: 30
«Reply #1 on: December 20, 2007, 02:09:31 AM »
Similar slurring exists in the opening phrase of Mozart's Rondo K.485. The Scerzo of Beethoven's Sonata op.2 no3 presents an analogous situation. Some pianists find it convenient to continue each upbeat slur over the bar line, making the first separation on the staccato note.
There are some situations in which individual slurs may not always indicate an attack and a release and where the legato may properly continue over the bar line even though the slur ends before it.

Offline iumonito

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Re: Opening of Haydn's sonata Hob. XVI: 30
«Reply #2 on: December 20, 2007, 02:43:37 AM »
As a matter of notational convention for piano music, I think there were no slurs over bar lines until mid-Beethoven, I think.  I don't recall any spot in Mozart, Haydn or early Beethoven with long slurs (differentiate from ties, of course).

Apart from that, consider the rethorical merit of having a sigh there.  It would have worked great in the less-reverberant pianos of the time.  If you do it too much, though, I tend to think it would sound mannieristic.

Here I would give them a bit of a bite, but no gap.
Money does not make happiness, but it can buy you a piano.  :)

Offline paulpiano

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Re: Opening of Haydn's sonata Hob. XVI: 30
«Reply #3 on: December 28, 2007, 07:06:27 PM »
There are also other cases: A trill with written-out termination whose slur ends before the note that follows.

Offline PaulNaud

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Re: Opening of Haydn's sonata Hob. XVI: 30
«Reply #4 on: January 09, 2008, 11:38:38 PM »
Quote
There are also other cases: A trill with written-out termination whose slur ends before the note that follows.
That's why I approach with hesitation the least understandable and the most ambiguous type of slurring found in Classic piano music: consecutive slurs that seem to separate sections of a cantabile melody in the most unexpected places.
Music soothes the savage breast.
Paul Naud

Offline paulpiano

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Re: Opening of Haydn's sonata Hob. XVI: 30
«Reply #5 on: January 24, 2008, 10:03:48 PM »
According to many writers of the early Classic and Classic periods, including Emmanuel Bach, Türk. Starke, and Hummel, the note over which the slur begins is very gently accented. The first note of a group of notes under a slur must be somewhat more strongly stressed. The problem is : Do all slurs indicate Attack and Release?

Offline counterpoint

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Re: Opening of Haydn's sonata Hob. XVI: 30
«Reply #6 on: January 24, 2008, 10:34:49 PM »
The problem is that the first note is a 32th. Otherwise it would be clear to play the upbeat note separate (staccato). But even a 32th note can be played staccato if one takes a bit more time for the pause between first and second note. I would play it like that.
If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline paulpiano

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Re: Opening of Haydn's sonata Hob. XVI: 30
«Reply #7 on: January 24, 2008, 11:18:02 PM »
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But even a 32th note can be played staccato if one takes a bit more time for the pause between first and second note. I would play it like that.
But why would you separate 16th notes, for example, under slurs that stop at the end of each beat or at the bar line?

Offline counterpoint

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Re: Opening of Haydn's sonata Hob. XVI: 30
«Reply #8 on: January 24, 2008, 11:51:15 PM »
But why would you separate 16th notes, for example, under slurs that stop at the end of each beat or at the bar line?

Okay, there are several shades of "separation". Or the other way round: several shades of legato. It's even possible to play non legato or staccato notes in a melodious manner. So separation means at first: begin something new, if you leave the key or not isn't the only criterion.
If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline paulpiano

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Re: Opening of Haydn's sonata Hob. XVI: 30
«Reply #9 on: January 26, 2008, 03:31:10 PM »
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Okay, there are several shades of "separation". Or the other way round: several shades of legato. It's even possible to play non legato or staccato notes in a melodious manner. So separation means at first: begin something new, if you leave the key or not isn't the only criterion.
I don't think you begin something new  when you separate 16th notes, under slurs that stop at the end of each beat, or at the bar line.

Offline counterpoint

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Re: Opening of Haydn's sonata Hob. XVI: 30
«Reply #10 on: January 26, 2008, 05:13:23 PM »
I don't think you begin something new  when you separate 16th notes, under slurs that stop at the end of each beat, or at the bar line.

So as I understand you now, you ask how to play legato slurs in Haydn's music, and the only allowed answer is: ignore them!  ?  ::)  ???
If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline paulpiano

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Re: Opening of Haydn's sonata Hob. XVI: 30
«Reply #11 on: January 26, 2008, 07:43:04 PM »
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So as I understand you now, you ask how to play legato slurs in Haydn's music, and the only allowed answer is: ignore them!  ?   
Not at all!
I'm just saying that they are inconsistent, and especially in some places. The experts  don't agree between them. Even those who tell you to play exactly what is written in the score, they tell you also that there are inconsistencies in Mozart's and Haydn's slurs.

Offline gerry

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Re: Opening of Haydn's sonata Hob. XVI: 30
«Reply #12 on: January 26, 2008, 10:47:48 PM »
Determine the overall melodic phrases, examine how the ornamentation works with and around the main melody, examine the "inconsistencies" and make an intellectual determination as to whether they were intended or just accidental and correct them as necessary, and then, observing the ornamentation practices of the period, play the line or phrase as musically as you can. Take care not to overemphasize the ornaments so much that they take on an unintended importance and distract from the melodic phrase.
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Offline paulpiano

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Re: Opening of Haydn's sonata Hob. XVI: 30
«Reply #13 on: January 29, 2008, 03:41:02 AM »
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observing the ornamentation practices of the period, play the line or phrase as musically as you can.
As iumnito said: "As a matter of notational convention for piano music, I think there were no slurs over bar lines until mid-Beethoven." Only seldom written in some cases.
We're not talking about ornamentation. The topic is about slurring. What did composers at the time of the classical era really intend to express threw their slurring?

Offline PaulNaud

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Re: Opening of Haydn's sonata Hob. XVI: 30
«Reply #14 on: February 06, 2008, 11:12:52 PM »
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Similar slurring exists in the opening phrase of Mozart's Rondo K.485. The Scerzo of Beethoven's Sonata op.2 no3 presents an analogous situation. Some pianists find it convenient to continue each upbeat slur over the bar line, making the first separation on the staccato note.
There are some situations in which individual slurs may not always indicate an attack and a release and where the legato may properly continue over the bar line even though the slur ends before it.
 
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According to Sandra Rosenblum book "Performance Practices in Classic Piano Music", every time a slur ends at a bar line the legato should also end much of the time, because of the finesse imparted to the line by appropriate accentuation and articulation.
Music soothes the savage breast.
Paul Naud

Offline ptmidwest

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Re: Opening of Haydn's sonata Hob. XVI: 30
«Reply #15 on: February 07, 2008, 02:54:05 PM »
Remember that slurs were often used to indicate groupings, not articulation or stresses, and for a pianist, it's more easily grasped if we have an image of a string player and his bow-markings.

Offline PaulNaud

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Re: Opening of Haydn's sonata Hob. XVI: 30
«Reply #16 on: February 11, 2008, 02:19:15 AM »
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Remember that slurs were often used to indicate groupings, not articulation or stresses, and for a pianist, it's more easily grasped if we have an image of a string player and his bow-markings.
How do you expect to render it on a modern piano?
Music soothes the savage breast.
Paul Naud