Playing Multiple Instruments?

[shingo]

Hey,
     I got this feeling exactly the same time last year, that I was interested in learning another instrument, the Guitar, alongside Piano. Mainly because of the different expressions one can enjoy and just as a bit of a flexible change. This lead to messing around on an acoustic for a month or so and picking it up rather quickly.
     However I began to wonder about time devotion and that rather trying to broaden out with both instruments it would be better to devote this extra time to improving my Piano playing. So I did and improved greatly.
     These are questions for all those out there who play more than 1 instrument. How do you find it? What are the time restrictions like, as I can imagine myself having to spend a great deal of time practicing perhaps draining my motivation to keep them going.
     Also psychologically how did you find starting an instrument from scratch again? I am nowhere near full domination of the Piano and I have so much more to learn, I am slightly dettered when I think how much there would be to digest in another instrument, inso far as the years it would take to achieve a similar level as Piano.
     Basically I do not want at any cost to start sacrificing my Piano skills which I have worked so hard for. And part of me screams to me that this extra time instead of being good in Piano and poor in Guitar which may burn out after a while, could be invested solely in Piano and make me very good. I would just feel guilty I suppose starting something else which may not be completed and hinder my progresss elsewhere.
      I know this isn't worded very well, and seems a rather compulsive and restrcited view of life goals, always declining to improve on narrow fields, but i am sure these are feeling other must have had when facing similar decisions.

[mattgreenecomposer]

I played bass many years before I played piano.  Then I realized how difficult piano is and how I opened "Pandora's Box."
Long story short.  Piano is a monster, everything else is a toy....don't waste your time.

[amanfang]

I took 5 semesters of organ at school.  (I realize organ is a keyboard instrument so there is a fair amount of transfer skills.)  I found that I ended up never practicing organ because it took away from my piano time.  Or, I spent minimal time playing the organ.  I enjoyed it, liked the pieces I was playing...but dreaded practicing for some reason.  So I quit taking organ.  I would much rather channel my practice time into piano.

[m1469]

Well, I am a singer as well as a pianist; on top of that I am deciding to actually dedicate some real time and energy to composition and improvising as well.  Where do I begin ?

I have actually been in huge angst over all of this before.  I felt very much like I definitely *had* to choose between instruments ... and year after anxious year, I simply could not make a choice (or if I made a choice for awhile, I couldn't stick with it forever).  This all actually made me sick, really sick, and I had to formally step back from everything that I possibly could step back from and do a bit of soul searching on my own (without outside influence).  This step back lasted for about a year and a half until I slowly started finding my way again.

I will tell you what, time constraints are definitely something to be considered !  Well, it just so happened that during the time that I was soul searching on my own, I found this forum and started passionately ( ) reading Bernhard  .  He has posted information on how to get organized in one's life.  Well, I still have a ways to go, of course, as there is always room for more oganization, but this has helped me tremendously in getting things done.

At first I had to just learn the system of organizing my time.  So, before I had as many activiities as I have now, I learned how to juggle the batons that I had going with the system of organization I was learning.  As I got better at that, I guess I started feeling like I could add more and more things in.  I do still get overwhelmed sometimes, but that tends to be most prevelent when I am not sticking to or using this system.

Anyway, I reached some kind of crisis after crisis until I finally realized that I was not going to be able to actually give up either instrument.  When I finally accepted this about myself and about my life, I realized the need to continue to consciously grow in several other areas.  For one, I needed to not just organize my time but actually utilize it better (still working on that).  One of the biggest changes that this brought about for me was to begin mentally practicing as much as I could.  Also, I started to actually type up my goals for each day.  I finally started to be able to function !

Another thing I have realized is the importance of discerning how these instruments together can help me grapple with each one separately.  I have always tried to relate them together when I can, but I am entering a new phase in actually utilizing specific things about one to help my progress with the other.  I think this is essential.  My goal became/is to be one person who plays more than one instrument vs. two people who each play one (that is often how it felt).  It's gradually gone from that concept to actually drawing on the same source for everything that I do in life, and seeing the greater connection between it all.  So, when I am teaching, I utlimately strive to see how it relates to my playing, singing, composing ... I am drawing everything from the same pool and expressing myself from the same "pool" through everything that I do.  It is beginning to morph into everything being of the same essence or substance, or that it all becomes one.  Okay, that may be a bit abstract ... sorry about that for now.

Psychologically, it has in the past been *very* difficult for me.  I had often felt extremely torn within myself regarding all of this.  However, I know that part of my survival as a musician in general depended actually, on having more than one form of expression.  There is a lot to that particular aspect that I won't go into for now.

One of the great things about piano is that it actually encompasses most of the concepts of music and instrumentation right there in black and white.  So, actually, knowing more about other instruments can be put to use with piano study, and knowing about the piano can be used in the study of other instruments.  I kind of view the piano as some kind of awesome "desk" where a person can bring their entire musical selves and sit down at this magic desk and work it all out.  

I will admit though, I have had to make a bit of a decision that most of my "life" will center around my musical goals.  I don't have much of a social life other than being here on the forum, and I have occasionally made friends through the forum whom I will talk with online.  Other than that, my social life is with my students and my colleagues in the musical work that I do.  

So, prioritization, organization and knowledge/experience carryover.  That's how it's done.

[rc]

Another thing I have realized is the importance of discerning how these instruments together can help me grapple with each one separately.  I have always tried to relate them together when I can, but I am entering a new phase in actually utilizing specific things about one to help my progress with the other.  I think this is essential.  My goal became/is to be one person who plays more than one instrument vs. two people who each play one (that is often how it felt).  It's gradually gone from that concept to actually drawing on the same source for everything that I do in life, and seeing the greater connection between it all.  So, when I am teaching, I utlimately strive to see how it relates to my playing, singing, composing ... I am drawing everything from the same pool and expressing myself from the same "pool" through everything that I do.  It is beginning to morph into everything being of the same essence or substance, or that it all becomes one.  Okay, that may be a bit abstract ... sorry about that for now.

I'm curious if you could elaborate on this at some time, sounds interesting.  I'm not sure if I'm getting it right but if I had to guess it might be how I relate my job with my music - the same uncompromising idealism that I apply to music is also in my work, always looking to refine... and I feel that if I were to slacken my attitude to work the habit of slackness would seep into other areas as well.  So that the pool is what I would just call myself (my attitudes, habits, tendencies)...?

Anyways, I can relate to your crises and anxieties, it all sounds very familiar   I'm glad you wrote it though because I doubt I'd be able to express it so well...  Come to think of it, nearly every day I feel some degree of anxiety whether I'm heading in the right direction.  But I don't think the worry is necessary.  I'd simplify it to just doing what I want to do and cutting out things that aren't necessary.  I've also almost entirely given up on the idea of working towards a specific outcome for the distant future, since that ideal outcome seems to change and shift every few months.  Maybe it's more fun and productive to just do what we like best and one day see that it's taken us somewhere...?

[shingo]

Thank you all for your replies  .
     

I played bass many years before I played piano.  Then I realized how difficult piano is and how I opened "Pandora's Box."
Long story short.  Piano is a monster, everything else is a toy....don't waste your time.

     Although I do not want to belittle other instruments I do know that I will never be 'finished' with the piano in my life. I could imagine that after a couple of years of Guitar one would have the basic arsenal to play through a wide range of tabs etc and kind of be at a satisfactory platau. Piano on the other hand I can never see being at that same platau, never being satisfied, and so I am not sure I would be able to start another instrument with this in mind.

I took 5 semesters of organ at school.  (I realize organ is a keyboard instrument so there is a fair amount of transfer skills.)  I found that I ended up never practicing organ because it took away from my piano time.  Or, I spent minimal time playing the organ.  I enjoyed it, liked the pieces I was playing...but dreaded practicing for some reason.  So I quit taking organ.  I would much rather channel my practice time into piano.

     Yes. This is exactly what I am thinking I would end up doing! It would have been ok back when I was just messing around on the instrument last year, but if I was to start spending money on it I fear it would become a chore as I have enrolled myself (money wise) into another musical journey, one which I have to balance after Piano and can't escape easily.


m1469, thank you very much for your response 

I will tell you what, time constraints are definitely something to be considered !  Well, it just so happened that during the time that I was soul searching on my own, I found this forum and started passionately ( Smiley) reading Bernhard  Grin.  He has posted information on how to get organized in one's life.  Well, I still have a ways to go, of course, as there is always room for more oganization, but this has helped me tremendously in getting things done.

Could you possibly link me to some of these threads on organisation please, I am struggling at the moment to keep productive and there is so much work/reading I have to do, it might be just what I need  .

Psychologically, it has in the past been *very* difficult for me.  I had often felt extremely torn within myself regarding all of this.  However, I know that part of my survival as a musician in general depended actually, on having more than one form of expression.

Yes I am drawn by the 'need' to express myself in another form as well. Despite the Piano catering for almost everything expression wise, I just find myself sometimes looking for another instrument to allow the expression of the minority of sounds and such that it does not. Maybe in the mean time I will play some different genre's of music and see if that satisfies my thirst.

And I love your metaphor:

The piano as some kind of awesome "desk" where a person can bring their entire musical selves and sit down at this magic desk and work it all out.

 

Thanks again.

[m1469]

Hi Shingo,

m1469, thank you very much for your response

You're welcome .

Here are a couple of good links along these lines :

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4718.msg45266.html#msg45266
(Bernhard on squeezing the most out of the time you have)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2526.msg21829.html#msg21829
(Bernhard on orgnizing practice time)

There is a basic model for my own endeavors that I like to live by (and sometimes need reminding of).  I think that what we accomplish in life is goverened by three basic ingredients that work together in a magic balance to create an overall affect :

1 - Motivation/Inspiration
2 - Action
3 - Commitment/Consistency

I think that all three of these ingredients, together, are necessary for any true accomplishment to take place.   An individual may feel motivated and even take action toward a goal, but without a commitment and consistency it will wind up going nowhere despite the strength of the other two.  It is the same with the other ingredients, if you take one of the factors out, progress doesn't happen.  So, a person can feel plenty of inspiration and feel very committed to that inspiration and those ideas, but without action, all you are left with is euphoria (which, sure, euphoria can feel great but it's pretty shallow/insubstantial without action).

It is easy to live in a bewildered state of mind about how to tackle something like piano playing.  It may seem like some foggy cloud of black and white with no end in sight, sitting before you (and sometimes mentally encompassing you), even if your intuitions about music and playing are very good.  Thankfully, there are fog horns to help us navigate .  In reality, there are principles of playing involved and they are really quite basic to how we are built and how we function.  Once these are discovered, it's like hearing a fog horn through the clouds and suddenly a path becomes apparent .  Since these are primarily principles that I am talking about, the details of their use will be dependent on each individual's practice and awareness of them.

What is cool (and essential) though, is that these principles are based on and refer to us !   We are essentially designed to do the things that we do at the piano (otherwise nobody could do them).  What that means is that our own perceptions can actually pinpoint something concrete about playing, the question is how to go about percieving these things.  Once you can pinpoint aspects of playing, this awareness can be carried over into other endeavors (including playing other instruments).  Remember, these principles are based on us --how we are built and how we function-- so many of these same principles are already invovled in the other things we want to do, we just need to recognize them.

An example that comes to mind is something like using a spatula to flip a pancake.  Once you learn not just the motion involved in this task, but also the kinesthetic sensation involved in the motion, you can use this  experience and knowledge to learn how to flip chicken breasts and burgers on a grill -- the knowledge has become transferrable to what appear to be varying acts (even if differing tools are being used).  Of course this is an imperfect analogy, but I can't think of another one at the moment.

You know, playing more than one instrument used to be common practice amongst the people of our tradition.  How did they manage this ?

[elspeth]

Piano is my, erm, fifth instrument after flute, piccolo, clarinet and singing. Whether or not learning another instrument is a good idea depends on all sorts of things.

There is the question of time - how many hours practice can you fit into a day, are you going to have lessons for both instruments and so on.

Then again, there's the question of money. A guitar does not have to be an expensive instrument in itself to buy - not for beginner models if you're not too ambitious, anyway - but then there's buying sheet music and paying for lessons and investing in extracurricular learning methods like concerts and CDs. It soon adds up to a lot.

If you can square those things... then I think the main questions to consider are the same one I always start with on any new project - why do I want to do this? What am I going to achieve and what goals (preliminary ones at least) am I setting for myself? And how is it going to fit in with my existing projects and goals in other areas?

For me, my instruments have mostly been a fairly natural progression. I started on flute, and once you get to orchestral standard on flute you more or less have to learn piccolo. And I learned clarinet so that if I wanted to join jazz groups or something I had a related second instrument. I learned to sing partly for curiosity and interest, but also because it helped my playing on the other instruments enormously. And then piano... piano came into my life when I'd reached a point where I knew I wasn't going to be a professional musician and I had no time to rehearse regularly with orchestras, so the draw for me was the richness of sound and harmony that only a piano is capable of. The thing that I loved about orchestral playing was being part of a harmony - usually right up on the top of the chord with those notes at the top of the piccolo range that are a swine to hit and keep in tune - but when that chord would come out right and the piece took on a life of its own between all the players... mmm. There's nothing like it. And you can't get that feeling with a solo instrument. Except... nearly... piano.

Starting to learn each separate instrument has been a different experience every time. I have found piano the hardest to begin to get to grips with... I have always been a very good sight-reader and I found it very frustrating being able to see how a piece should go but not 'just' being able to do it as I could on other instruments. It took me a while to learn to let go of that and enjoy being a beginner again.

If guitar is going to be your next project, I wish you loads of luck! But... if you really mean that 'after a couple of years of Guitar one would have the basic arsenal to play through a wide range of tabs etc and kind of be at a satisfactory platau.'... well, it kind of depends how good you want to be and what you're prepared to be satisfied with. With diligent study in a couple of years, you might well be able to muddle your way through a selection of music... but you certainly won't be a 'good' player to guitar afficionados. And that is, slightly, what makes me wonder about your motivation. If you're not aiming to be the best player you can be - because if you're a good pianist I really doubt you wouldn't be capable of improving past that plateau... then why do you want to do it? What do you hope to achieve by settling for mediocrity from the outset? Would it really satisfy you? You're starting with negative assumptions. 'It won't be as hard as piano so I won't have to try as hard.' It will be as hard. It'll just be differently hard. There'll be other things you'll need to learn and consider playing a guitar that wouldn't even enter your head with piano. There's a whole new repertoire and culture to learn about, and new styles and composers and players to discover.

I don't think you ever finish learning any instrument. There's always new music and new experiences to be had. It's only ever a journey...

[shingo]

     Thanks again m1469. I have bookmarked those links and will read them as soon as possible.

What is cool (and essential) though, is that these principles are based on and refer to us !   We are essentially designed to do the things that we do at the piano (otherwise nobody could do them).  What that means is that our own perceptions can actually pinpoint something concrete about playing, the question is how to go about percieving these things.  Once you can pinpoint aspects of playing, this awareness can be carried over into other endeavors (including playing other instruments).  Remember, these principles are based on us --how we are built and how we function-- so many of these same principles are already invovled in the other things we want to do, we just need to recognize them.

Hah. I had never thought of it that way, an enlightening concept  .

Hey Elspeth,
     Thank you for your response, congratulations on your aquisition of numerous instruments it must have taken a lot of hard work.

f you really mean that 'after a couple of years of Guitar one would have the basic arsenal to play through a wide range of tabs etc and kind of be at a satisfactory platau.'... well, it kind of depends how good you want to be and what you're prepared to be satisfied with. With diligent study in a couple of years, you might well be able to muddle your way through a selection of music... but you certainly won't be a 'good' player to guitar afficionados.

     Well in all honesty, that is what I personally would be satisfied with as a second instrument. I did not mean when I said this that I could half hearted-ly laze around and become proficient to the extent of playing everything I want to play, but be able to play along with stuff and experiment to some degree. I certainly know that this level would not be good to other players (or perhaps even anyone else).

And that is, slightly, what makes me wonder about your motivation. If you're not aiming to be the best player you can be, then why do you want to do it? What do you hope to achieve by settling for mediocrity from the outset? Would it really satisfy you? You're starting with negative assumptions. 

     I am motivated but obviously not 100% otherwise I would have already started lessons and not even entertained the idea of postponing my new journey by deliberating about time constraints etc. But at the same time I would not be setting out to be the best player I can be neccessarily, as what is more impronatnt to me is having fun and enjoying  it. I know by this you did not mean that enjoying wasn't part of it but as a second instrument I personally would feel a lot happier having a medium to 'relax' on, still hard work, but not the constant striving, constant practice and self evaluation I have with Piano.
     You must be talented in this aspect being able to take this mind set out onto all of your instruments, but I couldn't approach anything else with the same intensity I currently have for the Piano without being wholy unrealistic or just burning myself out on both of them. These may in many people's eye's be negative aspirations but my goal would not be to beomce the next Jimi Hendrix, but to have fun learning at a leisurly pace, another means of expression.

'It won't be as hard as piano so I won't have to try as hard. ' It will be as hard. It'll just be differently hard

     I acknowledge that it will be hard but I wouldn't have to try as hard as I wouldn't approach a new instrument in the same way as Piano because it would cease to become fun, trying to fully accomplish one instrument is enough (and as you say never fully achieved).
     For instance say I spoke a foreign language and was reasonably well adapted, and became interested in learning a new language. I wouldn't instinctively set out to become fluent, maybe I wish to just get to grips with it a little, be able to correspond with locals next time I visit etc.
     Maybe I approach this stuff the wrong way and that is why you have managed to become accomplished in 5 instruments and not me, but I tend to start something out of interest and enjoyment and see where it takes me than to set ultimate life goals.
 

[elspeth]

But at the same time I would not be setting out to be the best player I can be neccessarily, as what is more impronatnt to me is having fun and enjoying  it. I know by this you did not mean that enjoying wasn't part of it but as a second instrument I personally would feel a lot happier having a medium to 'relax' on, still hard work, but not the constant striving, constant practice and self evaluation I have with Piano.

Now that's a positive goal that I wholeheartedly agree with. A form of expression that you're not going to worry about and is just going to be for your own entertainment is a wonderful thing, and it's a different mindset from the one you were at the edges of previously.

I hope you have fun with it! Btw, if you're after inspiration, have a listen to Antonio Forcione's work - he's fantastic. (https://www.antonioforcione.com/)

[shingo]

     Ok, thanks for the link. And I probably was teetering on the edges of many mindsets during a wave of fanatascism  .

[pianochick93]

I play piano and flute, but I am almost a beginner in flute, probably somewhere in the intermediate range. I don't get much piano practice time as it due to my family, but I still progress fairly well with 1/2-1hr of practice time maybe every second night. With flute, I learn in a group, and we learn out of Essential Elements Bk 2 (hopefuly moving up to bk 3 this year) We also learn out a disney song book, which is challenging. The thing I have is that I don't get time to pratice flute, but it doesn't seem to matter at the moment. We will have a lesson, sight read a piece, go away for a week and practice (except that I don't practice) and come back the next week to find that everyone else can play it better because they've practiced, but so can I, and I havn't practiced.

When I get the chance (when all the pianos are taken) I practice flute in classroom music lessons, and I have the feeling I will be doing that a lot more this year, as there are more pianists in my music class. Stupid electri guitarists and heavy metal bands take up all of the rooms with pianos in them to strum at guitars or try to vibrate the roof off..

[amelialw]

I started out with singing before I was one. When I was 3, my parents sent me to yamaha for electone lessons but I practised on a piano at home. Started private lessons when I was 7.
When I was 13, I joined the military band at school, started off with the clarinet for about 4 months then switched to flute. Started playing the piccolo about 1 and a half years later. Carried on playing all 3 instruments when I moved to canada and picked up the violin as well.

right now, the only one I practise really is the piano.
Haven't found a choir which I could join and I will start singing again after I move back to singapore and join the choir at my church which I was initially in for 16 yrs.
Flute well, one day my mom took it home for me and misplaced it. I wish that that did'nt happen, might join an orchestra when I return to singapore if i'm good enough.
Piccolo, never owned my own. I messed up at 1 performance and that was enough for my mom, my dream is to own my own and play a piccolo in an orchestra.
Violin, I stopped practising lately due to lack of motivation etc. I haven't had a teacher for 2-3 years and i need to be pushed. When someone pushes me I do really well but I really need help and a sense of direction. If possible I would like to someday be able to play well enough to play for others as a classical violinist.

well, I had more or less given up on the violin but it just so happened that one of the days during christmas break, my teacher called up and asked if I wanted a lesson at home. Of course I said yes.
Before she started the lesson, she saw the violin, and was like who's violin is this? and remembered that it was mine. She then took it out, examined it, told me how to keep the bow from loosing hairs etc. turned around and said to me, have you been practising?, I said no because I was concertrating on the piano. She just looked at me, said that I should pick it up again, she and her daughter could help me with the violin and I, help her daughter with the flute. I said yes. She also offered to help, so right now I intend to borrow a few books from her and start practising again.

Piano, it's pretty obvious. Right now, my huge dream is to one day perform up on a big concert stage, anywhere, it might take a few more years but I want it that badly. Hopefully, will be able to do that one day in singapore with all the help I could get.
I want others to know i'm good, unfortunately, my recordings never turn out good, but I perform well in front of an audience.
Been working my butt off if you ask me, aiming for a min. 1st class honours for my ARCT performance exam and fighting for a 2nd year spot at the music school which I intend to go to.

If you ask me, it's all about discipline, balance of time etc. when I did all 5, singing I never really practised as I never needed to, it was just a natural talent that I had. I could sing a sing twice and memorise all the words and notes etc. Flute, pretty much the same. Piccolo, I did practise as it took a lot of work. Violin, 30 mins a day.