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hammerklavier opening. (Read 10261 times)

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: hammerklavier opening.
«Reply #50 on: January 16, 2008, 05:50:32 PM »
pogoing backwards up Mount Everest

With or without oxygen?

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline gerryjay

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Re: hammerklavier opening.
«Reply #51 on: January 16, 2008, 10:31:02 PM »
With or without oxygen?

Thal

 hey thal!
 the "with oxygen" option configure cheating, so it's not allowed.

Offline gerry

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Re: hammerklavier opening.
«Reply #52 on: January 16, 2008, 11:29:40 PM »
Chopins polonaise is notated for 2 hands at the start of teh octaves. It is not to conserve energy, so if the pianist you talk about are using it to conserve energy, they must have tense octaves. It's for the sound that they do it, you can do it with no pedal with 2 hands, and get a clear sound, then when the RH enters the pedal generally has to go down, so the octaves obviously change. It's a nice subtle little touch and makes it interesting. That is not a hard octave passage, so people do not need to cheat.

Theatricality is very important

Speaking of theatricality,  this brings to mind the Brailowski recording where he continues the left-hand octave 16ths pattern under the repeating right-hand chords between sections - i.e., at measure 100 he jumps down after the D# octave to play A, G#, F#; B, A, G#, F#, etc. then continues after playing the low E octave in measure 101 to play similar running octaves on D# C# B, E D# C# B, and so on until jumping back up to the normal pattern in measure 102 - very showy if you can do it but doesn't give the hand much rest!
Durch alle Töne tönet
Im bunten Erdentraum
Ein leiser Ton gezogen
Für den, der heimlich lauschet.

Offline general disarray

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Re: hammerklavier opening.
«Reply #53 on: January 17, 2008, 03:15:21 AM »

 
 about the cheating i think it's much more about tradition and/or fetish than to actual music. the first example that come to my mind is ravel's concerto for the left hand. yes, i know the whole history about this work, but why not playing it with both hands? it's due to the visual effect? if so, what happens in an audio recording?
 
 however, i think every artist must do his/er own choices as far as they can affect the final product. again, it's a matter of what is produced and if that is great or not.

 

I meant to comment on this point of yours, gerryjay.  And a good point it is, I think.

Janina Fialkowska, the great Canadian pianist, and now, I hear a US resident, was afflicted with a tumor in the muscle of her left arm some years ago.  It was touch and go for her, but during her recovery she adapted the Ravel Left Hand Concerto for right hand -- as well as the Prokofiev.  The "final product," as you note, was great, reviews were ecstatic, and the Ravel and Prokofiev were not diminished by her arrangement.

Ya gotta do what you gotta do.
" . . . cross the ocean in a silver plane . . . see the jungle when it's wet with rain . . . "

Offline m

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Re: hammerklavier opening.
«Reply #54 on: January 17, 2008, 06:10:26 AM »
That's the most sensible solution!

Disagree  8).

First, I believe it might be little bit too early to start working on something like Hammerklavier if one has such question, to start with.

Second, I believe both bass and chord should be played with L.H., as it written. The reason is, that slight timing needed for the hand to reach the chord creates that kind of internal musical intensity and majestic feeling, which gets lost once it becomes "too easy".

One quite famous pianist told me for that very reason he stopped playing Op.111 in public, as he was panically afraid to miss the second octave in L.H..
Of course, there was no question about dividing it between hands.

Best, M

Offline general disarray

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Re: hammerklavier opening.
«Reply #55 on: January 17, 2008, 06:30:04 AM »
It's great to have you back. 

Of course, you're right.  Those arguing for the "easy way out" are those of us who have enough respect for this sonata to leave it to the professionals. 

" . . . cross the ocean in a silver plane . . . see the jungle when it's wet with rain . . . "

Offline rallestar

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Re: hammerklavier opening.
«Reply #56 on: January 17, 2008, 06:46:48 AM »
Hmm, well, let me ask this:

Beethoven was a great pianist and a great composer. He knew exactly what effect he wanted to achieve with his piano writing and how to achieve it as composer.


Are you all seriously suggesting that he didn't know how to put the Bb chord in another staff or otherwise make it clear that he wanted another hand to do it?

Is that not then indicating that Beethoven wanted us to play the opening with one hand? I, for one, am not then going to consider myself a better pianist and composer than Beethoven and change what he wrote. (Were I ever to get remotely close to the level required to play it.)

Offline ahinton

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Re: hammerklavier opening.
«Reply #57 on: January 17, 2008, 06:55:39 AM »
Beethoven was a great pianist and a great composer. He knew exactly what effect he wanted to achieve with his piano writing and how to achieve it as composer.

Are you all seriously suggesting that he didn't know how to put the Bb chord in another staff or otherwise make it clear that he wanted another hand to do it?
While by no means suggesting that Beethoven didn't know what he was doing (clearly an absurd suggestion, if ever there was one, where Op. 106 is concerned), I'm not so convinced as you seem to be that he would actually have bothered to write this opening phrase (and the second one, to which Thal has also drawn attention and which embraces the same issue) in a way that specifically indicates which hand is supposed to play what. Some composers have been more diligent than others down the ages about doing that kind of thing - and I'm not for a moment suggesting that those who saw this other than as a prime concern were necessarily deficient composers. IN other words, I am willing to accept that Beethoven may simply have either left it to the pianist to decide or just not even thought about it; as I've already suggested, he would surely have been astonished at the sheer amount of attention this is generating here.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
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The Sorabji Archive

Offline m

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Re: hammerklavier opening.
«Reply #58 on: January 17, 2008, 07:11:29 AM »
as I've already suggested, he would surely have been astonished at the sheer amount of attention this is generating here.

In fact, even I am astonished at all that amount of attention... I mean even the fact of having that discussion, first thing  :o.

As I indicated a couple posts earlier, my position on that matter surely is very definite... but maybe it is only me...

In any case, to summarize it:

1) those who PLAY Hammerklavier don't ask those questions, 
2) those who want to play HAMMERKLAVIER, but have those questions should not play it, and
3) those who WANT to play Hammerklavier and have those questions, should do it as written, i.e. with one (left) hand... or however the heck they wish.

Hopefully it was helpful.
Best, M

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: hammerklavier opening.
«Reply #59 on: January 17, 2008, 05:56:24 PM »
Well, that just about finishes this thread off then.

Apart from we do not know what people who don't want to play it would do.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline m

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Re: hammerklavier opening.
«Reply #60 on: January 17, 2008, 08:37:55 PM »

Apart from we do not know what people who don't want to play it would do.


Good question... for sure those lucky bastards will have much more time to spare  ;)

Best, M

Offline mephisto

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Re: hammerklavier opening.
«Reply #61 on: January 17, 2008, 10:19:48 PM »
I'm a bit confused by this question. Is this really supposed to be that difficult? After having listened to many of the pianists in the audition room, I would consider my self a pretty bad pianists compared to many of the members of this forum. But even I am able to play this opening ( I just went down to my piano and tried).

Some of the left hand jumps in Liebestraume are much more difficult imo, and everyone who can play something like the Hammerklavier, would find Liebestraume (by Liszt of course) comparativly easy.

But I do guess it changes dramaticly infront of an audience.