Sostenuto (middle)pedal

[jehangircama]

I recently attended a masterclass on pedalling by Joseph Banowetz. It was interesting- he talked about the use of the middle 'sostenuto' pedal, which I had never used before. The unfortunate thing is that its only on grands, and not even on all of them- the middle pedal in my upright is just a mute pedal.
I was wondering, how many people use this pedal while performing or reocording. it can be used in a number of places, but i don't think it's used that often.
Has anyone here worked on this?

[richard black]

I was wondering, how many people use this pedal while performing or reocording.

I use it whenever I've got one, pretty much. I own an upright and an elderly European grand, both without it, but you can still practise pretending you've got a sostenuto by using the left pedal, just to develop left foot/hand co-ordination. Have a look for the 'Ramble on themes from the final love duet in 'The Rosebearer'' by Grainger, which has very detailed sost. pedal markings in it.

IIRC, Jo B wrote the book on piano pedalling, didn't he? I haven't seen him in ages - if you see him again, tell him Richard Black says hello and ask if he remembers me!

[gerryjay]

 just another day there was a thread related to sostenuto pedal as well, and i keep wondering why so few pianos do have it, since there are some languages that result impossible to render in its absence.
 the foremost example that comes to my mind is debussy. a lot of his works requires that pedal, and there are no alternatives. no pedal, and you lost polyphony; right pedal, and all turns into a mess. even with half or 1/4 right pedal, you lose the precise articulation that he asks for.
 the use of the sostenuto pedal goes even further. i'm exploring it's usage on some bach works with interesting results, and that's only one example.

 

[quantum]

I like using it when I improvise.  Such as achieving held chords while playing staccato or with more varied articulation in other ranges of the keyboard.

Some very cool effects can be had by holding selected notes silently with the sostenuto pedal.  You can use sympathetic vibration to enhance certain harmonic structures by using non held notes to activate the held ones. 

[queenrock]

just another day there was a thread related to sostenuto pedal as well, and i keep wondering why so few pianos do have it, since there are some languages that result impossible to render in its absence.
the foremost example that comes to my mind is debussy. a lot of his works requires that pedal, and there are no alternatives. no pedal, and you lost polyphony; right pedal, and all turns into a mess. even with half or 1/4 right pedal, you lose the precise articulation that he asks for.
the use of the sostenuto pedal goes even further. i'm exploring it's usage on some bach works with interesting results, and that's only one example.

I thought debussy didn't have that pedal on his pianos though when he wrote his compositions??!

[amelialw]

I did use it last time, with my previous teacher.

I don't use it anymore though as I don't find a need to. But one thing that's for sure is that I use the una corda pedal almost just a much as the sustain pedal.

[gerryjay]

I thought debussy didn't have that pedal on his pianos though when he wrote his compositions??!

considering that the sostenuto pedal was invented in the mid 1840's, and steinway patented it in 1874, i should say that yes, he could have this pedal on his pianos. furthermore, his writing evidences its use in several points, the effect described by quantum (prolonged chords as basis for staccato melody) being one among others.

[rachfan]

Debussy's favorite piano was the Bechstein.  Being a Eurpean piano, it did not have a sostenuto pedal in his time.

That notwithstanding, one of the best applications for the sostenuto pedal I found is in Debussy's "La Cathedrale engloutie".  At the top of page 3, "Sonore sans durete" depicting the apparition of the cathedral, Debussy writes in a low "bell" on the lowest C five times, each time acting as a sustained pedal point while parallel chords in the two hands are being played at ff.  I play a Baldwin Model L grand which has the pedal, and I found that the sostenuto pedal is a natural solution there to hold those long pedal points.  Here's the link to my recording in the Audition Room:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,19100.0.html
 

[jehangircama]

do bosendorfer, kawai and yamaha make this pedal on their grands? or is it only the american pianos?
i believe steinway sent liszt a new piano with this pedal after they had patented it. he sent them a letter saying that though he hadn't written any pieces for it, he marked out certain places in his works where it could be used.

IIRC, Jo B wrote the book on piano pedalling, didn't he? I haven't seen him in ages - if you see him again, tell him Richard Black says hello and ask if he remembers me!

yes he's written a book on pedalling. i hope he comes again next year (he came last may also) i'll mention it to him. btw you don't happen to have his email id, do you? i'd asked him for something and he'd told me to mail him, but the email i was given doesn't seem to work.

[gerry]

do bosendorfer, kawai and yamaha make this pedal on their grands? or is it only the american pianos?
\\

Yes, Bosie has it.

[point of grace]

yes, i did
basically when playing mozart pieces, when you need to "rush" sometimes articulating your fingers... i really see it as a help in these cases

[gerry]

yes, i did
basically when playing mozart pieces, when you need to "rush" sometimes articulating your fingers... i really see it as a help in these cases

??what are you talking about??

[gerryjay]

Debussy's favorite piano was the Bechstein.  Being a European piano, it did not have a sostenuto pedal in his time.

hey rachfan!
 it's a fact or a conjecture? excuse me for asking, but i really don't know and that would be a very interesting information. is there something written about that?
 (notice that it's not an argument, it's my ignorance indeed.)
 thanks in advance!