Dumping or "firing" students

[thalberg]

Mattgreenecomposer wrote a hilarious post where he said he always advertises for new students so he can dump the bad ones and get better ones.

I love this idea......you could build a great studio that way.

But my question is this:  How do you handle it?  How do  you tell them?  Do you tell them up front that you dump students who don't practice?  Do you give them a warning?  What if you try to dump them and they argue?

Matt, I'd like to hear your views on this.  And of course, I'd like everyone else's views too!!

[Bob]

I think teachers keep raising their prices or just tell students they don't have any more time to teach them.  Or they tell students they are making some changes to the studio and have to let some students go because they're isn't enough time to teach everyone.  And then give them a list of new teachers.

I think plenty of teachers are doing this, although if you're teaching lots of kids, the kids eventually go off to college.  But weeding down the studio to get more money, weeding down students until you have ones that you enjoy working with or make better progress... I can see that happening.  Not that it's right or wrong, but I can see it happening.

Where is this Mattgreen post?  Something like... ?  "Wanted:  New and improved students to replace the crappy knuckleheads I'm stuck with now"  ?  Posted right by the door for all the current students to see?  Cruel... so cruel.  

[quantum]

There are times when I wish those not-so-great music schools would fire their talented students for the student's own sake.  It is the hard working diligent teachers who end up having to fix these students bad habits.

[m1469]

There are times when I wish those not-so-great music schools would fire their talented students for the student's own sake.  It is the hard working diligent teachers who end up having to fix these students bad habits.

ha ha !  What a wonderfully interesting perspective    .

[thalberg]

  "Wanted:  New and improved students to replace the crappy knuckleheads I'm stuck with now"  ?  Posted right by the door for all the current students to see?  Cruel... so cruel.  

Bob you always make me laugh.  You are so funny!

There are times when I wish those not-so-great music schools would fire their talented students for the student's own sake.  It is the hard working diligent teachers who end up having to fix these students bad habits.

I think this is what happened to Brahms.  His teacher saw how talented Brahms was and tried to give him to another more excellent teacher.  The excellent teacher said "you're crazy to give up such a student.  Keep him.  I will not take him."  But Brahms's teacher persisted and begged until the excellent teacher finally took Brahms.  Great example of unselfishness, I think.

If I ever had a genius student I'd fire him/her when I could no longer help.

[Bob]

"Wanted:  New and improved students to replace the crappy knuckleheads I'm stuck with now"  ?  Posted right by the door for all the current students to see?  Cruel... so cruel.   

Teacher, in a smiling friendly voice, "Don't take that the wrong way.  (friendly chuckle) It's meant to offend you.  I just don't feel I'm improved as teacher with you as much as I might.  I feel I have plateaued as a teacher.  I need something more.  A student who can put that passion back in my teaching."


















8 year old student and soccer mom just start back blankly.   

[mknueven]

As funny as some of these answers are - it really is good to have a plan.
I had a student a couple of years ago - that I just told to leave; that he was wasting my time. 
But I kind of lost my professional cool at the time - and wish I had had a plan in place.

I'm not turning out any Beethovens in my studio - but most of my students love music and progress.

[Petter]

I sure hope my teacher doesn´t sack me, that would break my heart.

[pianochick93]

I don't think my teacher would fire me, at least I hope she wouldn't. I am her most advanced student, and most of her kids are little. She likes me.

[mattgreenecomposer]

Eeeekk!  Do I have to answer this.
Well.   I always give them many warnings first, like "If you keep not practicing I'm not going to be able to teach you anymore."  This usually goes on for a month or 2 and then I just tell them I can't do so and so anymore because of my schedule.  A good quote is " I have to drop all my students in this area, because its too far to drive"- or something.   In the end, I never blame it on the student because that could cause a "backfire" if the person or parent gets angry. A good comment about you as a teacher goes a mile in the real world, a bad comment goes a 100 miles.

Raising rates sometimes works too if you go for an outrageous amount.

Chances are your doing them a favor.  If they're not learning anything, and never practice, they are wasting money.  If you quit them, they get to save money and you don't have to suffer for an hour that week.  Its a win win. 

[Petter]

There are times when I wish those not-so-great music schools would fire their talented students for the student's own sake.  It is the hard working diligent teachers who end up having to fix these students bad habits.

I hope my teacher is one of those.  And damn this topic is making me paranoid lol.

[thalberg]

Eeeekk!  Do I have to answer this.
Well.   I always give them many warnings first, like "If you keep not practicing I'm not going to be able to teach you anymore."  This usually goes on for a month or 2 and then I just tell them I can't do so and so anymore because of my schedule.  A good quote is " I have to drop all my students in this area, because its too far to drive"- or something.   In the end, I never blame it on the student because that could cause a "backfire" if the person or parent gets angry. A good comment about you as a teacher goes a mile in the real world, a bad comment goes a 100 miles.

Raising rates sometimes works too if you go for an outrageous amount.

Chances are your doing them a favor.  If they're not learning anything, and never practice, they are wasting money.  If you quit them, they get to save money and you don't have to suffer for an hour that week.  Its a win win. 

haha I got a warning when I was 16.  My teacher said she would drop me.  I had not touched the piano in two weeks.

[amanfang]

I do find it funny when I see these threads right next to "how can I get more students?" threads.

[mike_lang]

I had a studiomate who was to play Rhapsody in Blue in Petersburg, played poorly in his lesson, and my teacher threw an apple at him and told him to get out and never come back.  (Kevin promptly called and apologized and was taken back in.)

[gerry]

Eeeekk!  Do I have to answer this.
Well.   I always give them many warnings first, like "If you keep not practicing I'm not going to be able to teach you anymore."  This usually goes on for a month or 2 and then I just tell them I can't do so and so anymore because of my schedule.  A good quote is " I have to drop all my students in this area, because its too far to drive"- or something.   In the end, I never blame it on the student because that could cause a "backfire" if the person or parent gets angry. A good comment about you as a teacher goes a mile in the real world, a bad comment goes a 100 miles.

Raising rates sometimes works too if you go for an outrageous amount.

Chances are your doing them a favor.  If they're not learning anything, and never practice, they are wasting money.  If you quit them, they get to save money and you don't have to suffer for an hour that week.  Its a win win. 

We're venturing into that dangerous "what a tangled web we weave..." area here. I still think honesty is the best policy. The student (and parent for that matter) has to know that this is a direct result of his/her decision not to practice, otherwise they will just go on to torment another unsuspecting teacher. You do the student a disservice not to make them face this reality head-on.

[mknueven]

Yes, I certainly agree with Gerry.  If it gets to that point - it's only fair to tell them why.

By the way, Petter - it's very unusual, I think, for this to happen when a person is even half trying.
We all need to make a living - and no one's job is so perfect that they cannot
work under less than idea circumstances.

I've been teaching for a long time - and this has only happened once.
It was my fault - I kept trying to "help" someone that didn't want any help.
There comes a time when you have to ask yourself - is the challenge a musical problem or is the challenge a human problem?
You may need to do that with your own teacher too - You might ask yourself the same question.

This particular person - was very rude and told me they did not want any critique - I told him I wasn't going to take his money just for listening to him - I had to help him - He said he would rather me just take his money. A rather extreme case!

There were other factors - that I'd just as soon forget....
But most of the time - teachers treasure their students.
To be honest - I treasured this student - but it became clear to me that my efforts were totally in vain because he rejected my help.

[Bob]

I think there's a teacher out there for everyone if they want one. 

I wouldn't worry about much if you're doing some practicing.

If I were looking to drop students, I would just be upfront with them.  These are my aims and goals for teaching.  This is what I see them doing, and those things don't seem to click.  Warning them is a good idea, but you have a sense of them after working with them for awhile. 

On the other side, I hate when you can tell someone is feeding you a line.  If a teacher was telling me they are very busy and their studio is very full, I would be thinking they are just dumping me, and not just that, but making up an excuse to cover up what's really going on.  I have goals and way I work.  I can understand a teacher having theirs and our working together not working out for that reason.  I don't like playing games.

[thalberg]

I suppose you could do the old "it's not you it's me" thing like when you break up with someone you're dating.

"I'm sorry I have not been successful with your child.  He might make better progress with someone else."

[Bob]

And that's what I've heard people using.  Which true, but might not be the real reason they're drumping the student.

[amelialw]

my teacher said that she would never dump or fire me, in fact she would love to keep me as her student as long as she can still teach

but... because she is thinking of me, my prospects, future etc. she wants me to move back to singapore to finish of my studies so she will have to pass me to another teacher

[m1469]

but... because she is thinking of me, my prospects, future etc. she wants me to move back to singapore to finish of my studies so she will have to pass me to another teacher

I actually had a similar experience with one of my teachers.  She was good for me as far as I could tell and I practiced very hard and showed up to all of my lessons ready to go -- I was perfectly happy with her.  After one term of working with me, she tried to pass me off to the head piano instructor but I wouldn't go ... hee hee.  So, she stayed with me for another term until she finally said that I didn't really have a choice and that it was a good opportunity for me to study with the other instructor.  I could respect her opinion for sure and there were no hard feelings between us, though sometimes I wonder if it was truly the right thing for me.  I suppose if she felt like she could not give me what I needed, it was the right thing whether I believed it to be so or not.  I definitely appreciate and respect her candidness with me.

[amelialw]

I actually had a similar experience with one of my teachers.  She was good for me as far as I could tell and I practiced very hard and showed up to all of my lessons ready to go -- I was perfectly happy with her.  After one term of working with me, she tried to pass me off to the head piano instructor but I wouldn't go ... hee hee.  So, she stayed with me for another term until she finally said that I didn't really have a choice and that it was a good opportunity for me to study with the other instructor.  I could respect her opinion for sure and there were no hard feelings between us, though sometimes I wonder if it was truly the right thing for me.  I suppose if she felt like she could not give me what I needed, it was the right thing whether I believed it to be so or not.  I definitely appreciate and respect her candidness with me.

well...this is not about the instructor, I can still learn alot from my teacher but she feels that I can't fit in here and need a change of environment, as far as that goes I agree with her and I do not see a future for myself here.

yes, I have already been with her for 4 years and all this time I have insisted that I still needed her but she said that I have matured so much and should go out into the world and do something about my future.

teachers like that are rare and that's the hard part, leaving a teacher who's so honest with me and thinks for my well-being and does not teach to earn money but earn respect and love from students

[m19834]

well...this is not about the instructor, I can still learn alot from my teacher but she feels that I can't fit in here and need a change of environment, as far as that goes I agree with her and I do not see a future for myself here.

yes, I have already been with her for 4 years and all this time I have insisted that I still needed her but she said that I have matured so much and should go out into the world and do something about my future.

teachers like that are rare and that's the hard part, leaving a teacher who's so honest with me and thinks for my well-being and does not teach to earn money but earn respect and love from students

I see, that is indeed different.  I am curious why you would not fit in where you are ?  I can see if you moved there just to study with a particular teacher, how one day you would move away again if you didn't ever intend to stay where you moved to in the first place, and especially if you didn't consider it "home."  That is not too unusual, actually.  And, I guess she is using her magical devices to help find for you another teacher in Singapore.

I just have to add, because I am "like that," that just because a teacher is teaching to earn money doesn't mean they are not also depending greatly on earning the respect and love from their students.  It can (and should, in my opinion) be both, even when monitary compensation is exchanging hands.  In a sense, if a teacher is not earning those things, they do not have a business and will not earn money.  But, okay, I realize that is a different topic and you probably didn't mean any ill-intent by your comment, so I will zip my cyber-lips now.

[amelialw]

I see, that is indeed different.  I am curious why you would not fit in where you are ?  I can see if you moved there just to study with a particular teacher, how one day you would move away again if you didn't ever intend to stay where you moved to in the first place, and especially if you didn't consider it "home."  That is not too unusual, actually.  And, I guess she is using her magical devices to help find for you another teacher in Singapore.

I just have to add, because I am "like that," that just because a teacher is teaching to earn money doesn't mean they are not also depending greatly on earning the respect and love from their students.  It can (and should, in my opinion) be both, even when monitary compensation is exchanging hands.  In a sense, if a teacher is not earning those things, they do not have a business and will not earn money.  But, okay, I realize that is a different topic and you probably didn't mean any ill-intent by your comment, so I will zip my cyber-lips now.

yes, I did move here with the intention to study under my present teacher and I do not really feel that canada's my home. The culture here is too different and I can't really fit into society so i'm moving back.

[nyonyo]

yes, I did move here with the intention to study under my present teacher and I do not really feel that canada's my home. The culture here is too different and I can't really fit into society so i'm moving back.

I thought you are going to give another try to get in to that Canadian Conservatory?

[amelialw]

well, i've changed my mind, everything's set now. i'm going to get myself into that music academy in singapore

[mike_lang]

well, i've changed my mind, everything's set now. i'm going to get myself into that music academy in singapore

Your Canadian teacher gave you a crystal ball on the way out?

[amelialw]

Your Canadian teacher gave you a crystal ball on the way out?

nope, she did'nt and she's not canadian, she's a singaporean. that's why she reccomended me that music academy. She goes back there to hold masterclasses and recitals.

[joyfulmusic]

In my case it's almost always the parents I need to fire.  I can't see why it's a big deal to say to a student, if you're not progressing we need to talk about whether you wish to choose taking piano still.  Right now I have a five year old student who is adorable and sweet.  HOWEVER... mom thinks it cute to teach her fur elise.  So is it a surprise to anyone that she isn't practicing her first lesson pages much?  I can tell already that there's going to be a problem.   Right now in the suburbs of Boston the number one problem is over-zealous parents who have their kids running from sport to class to play-dates - sometimes three or four things after school constantly.  When they say they don't have time to practice, what they really mean is their energy is spent on constant stimuli.  So when they get to sit down and relax... it's time for bed.  I have 40 students and a waiting list.  If I get some kid who doesn't want to practice, I tell them no problem, I have others waiting for the chance.

[a-sharp]

I like the idea of throwing an apple at them, LOL.

Seriously - if we're talking kids - start with honestly communicating with the parents. Ask them  how practice is going at home - tell them what the lessons are like - they often are so busy they are clueless. Explain - you're happy to keep taking their money... but, chances are, they want their money to be well spent - so either they'll find a way to figure out what's keeping their child from practicing, or decide to let it go on their own.

If it's an adult - talk to them... Ask them what is going on, how can you help - explain how you'd like lessons to be more productive & don't want to waste their money. Maybe they need to take a "break" while they work through personal problems - maybe, you can help them structure their time more efficiently. Maybe they are frustrated and need different material to work on. Find out what's going on.

Ask questions - if you make it their decision - then it's not like *you* are the one dumping anyone. sort of a passive-agressive tactic.

Then, if all else fails - throw produce at them. 

I've been known to draw mean faces in their notes (a 7 YO student) saying (with a smile) "this is what I'm going to look like next week if you come back & it's not perfect "(you know - after 3 weeks of doing the SAME silly excercise, LOL). turns out - I did end up looking like that nonetheless. 

[anna_crusis]

If I get a kid that won't practice, I just say to the parent nicely, 'There's no point in continuing if he/she doesn't practice'. Then they know something's up and they'll either help the kid to practice more or bail out. Nobody has any hurt feelings because they can always save face by saying, "Oh well, he has TALENT of course but he just didn't have time for practice."

It's not unreasonable to expect a student to do well and to drop them if they don't put in any effort. If you flunked every test at college, they'd throw you out. So I don't feel guilty about putting my cards on the table. As long as you retain your professionalism and give them fair warning, there's no problem.

[timothy42b]

It's not unreasonable to expect a student to do well and to drop them if they don't put in any effort.

Hmmm.

What if?

Student A practices regularly, at least as much as most kids his age will.  But he's kind of a klutz, and doesn't really make all that much progress.  He probably will never "get it."

Student B never bothers to practice much, but she's one of those lucky naturals, can usually do well at lessons and surprisingly enough continues to improve. 

Drop one?  Drop both?  Keep both?

And now along comes student C, clearly a prodigy.  But you have no lesson slots available.  But it would really be a thrill to have a child like this on your roster.  Who do you drop to make room for him, A or B? 

[nyonyo]

If the ability the same, I will drop the student who has annoying parents.
If both students have annoying parents, I will drop the student who annoys me more.
This decision is not a black and white thing. We have to put ourselve in their shoes. Will you feel good if your teacher dump you?

[quantum]

Hmmm.

What if?

Student A practices regularly, at least as much as most kids his age will.  But he's kind of a klutz, and doesn't really make all that much progress.  He probably will never "get it."

Student B never bothers to practice much, but she's one of those lucky naturals, can usually do well at lessons and surprisingly enough continues to improve. 

Drop one?  Drop both?  Keep both?

And now along comes student C, clearly a prodigy.  But you have no lesson slots available.  But it would really be a thrill to have a child like this on your roster.  Who do you drop to make room for him, A or B? 

A mid way solution would be to keep both A and B while cutting the lesson time in half for both.  Will make room for C in same time frame.

[anna_crusis]

Hmmm.

What if?

Student A practices regularly, at least as much as most kids his age will.  But he's kind of a klutz, and doesn't really make all that much progress.  He probably will never "get it."

Student B never bothers to practice much, but she's one of those lucky naturals, can usually do well at lessons and surprisingly enough continues to improve. 

Drop one?  Drop both?  Keep both?

And now along comes student C, clearly a prodigy.  But you have no lesson slots available.  But it would really be a thrill to have a child like this on your roster.  Who do you drop to make room for him, A or B? 

Hmmm, that's a toughy. I only dump a student if they're absolutely hopeless or are trashing the lesson. I guess I'd try to keep both and make room for C by reshuffling my lessons.

[edvond]

I have had the unfortunate experience of trying to teach the brattiest child of the last millennium.  The first two lessons were fine.  But that changed quickly. 

After several weeks of attitude and back-talk and not even trying to do what I asked him at the lesson, I called the soccer mom to sit in on the lessons.  The situation degenerated quickly.  And no wonder.  The mother was worse than the child.   

The lessons were unbearably awful.  On many occasions, I threatened to excuse this student if the attitude and preparation did not improve.  Sometimes there were slight improvements.

The child and the mother complained about everything I suggested.  I dreaded each lesson with unbelievable angst but kept my cool.  I didn’t want to descend to their level by losing my temper.

After I had actually taught this monster how to read (no small feat given the resistance) I gave myself a reward.  For accomplishing the impossible, I finally decided to have him “move on.”  The mother was so unstable and volatile, I knew honesty had no chance of succeeding.
 
I exaggerated a family crisis and told the mother that I was forced to reduce my schedule to care for a family member at her home.  The last students to sign on were the first to go.  It’s only fair.  This student would have to find another teacher.

The mother put her finger in my face and angrily told me that decision was “completely unacceptable” to her.  And furthermore, she fully expected her son to play in the upcoming recital.  Although I was pretty upset myself, I calmly explained to her the nature of the family emergency. 

And I told her that she certainly did not have much compassion for my [exaggerated] family crisis.

She stormed out of the studio by slamming the door and proceeded to denigrate me to every teacher she subsequently encountered.  I still wonder if my reputation suffers from this incident.

Do any of you have ideas on what would have been the best way to handle this situation?  It was just impossible.

[joyfulmusic]

Ah yes, I had an experience like that.  Do not worry about what other people think based on what she says.  I assure you emphatically that any intelligent person is going get where the problem is immediately!  I was trying to teach two kids from a family of 6 once and the mom would go out.  there would be children screaming, birds flying around, the kids fingers were filthy; and the nanny turned up the t.v. that was as big as Kansas so that the piano didn't bother her in the next room.  It was the most chaos I have ever seen in a home.  When I said I would no longer teach there because the environment was unacceptable she became enraged.  Mind you I tried for almost a whole school year because they were pretty good kids.  She left this message on my answering machine, "How dare you, I'm going to tell everyone about you".  Absolutely nothing happened as a result of this.

[jordan christopher]

HAhahaha. Duh!!!!!!!!!!!! if your teacher or mentor dumps you maybe your teacher/mentor is not an effective teacher........ a real/true mentor can develop students even the students are very hard to teach........

[m]

HAhahaha. Duh!!!!!!!!!!!! if your teacher or mentor dumps you maybe your teacher/mentor is not an effective teacher........ a real/true mentor can develop students even the students are very hard to teach........

I agree.
Myself, besides professional I always maintain very close personal relationship with my students, based on trust, respect, and friendship. I just cannot imagine the situation of dumping my friends.

In whole my career I remember only 3 times when I had to explain to the parents that continuation taking piano lessons is a waste of their money, my energy, and unnecessary torture for the kids, and suggested to switch to another instrument the kids would be interested.
In fact, one of them enjoed very much guitar and another became pretty good violinst.

Best, M

[joyfulmusic]

It is my fondest wish that I could refer my students I don't want to you and see how you do.  I would love to have a teacher to refer these students to.   Boy could I tell you stories.  I had one mom sitting on the floor with her feet under the piano bench.  her then 8 year old daughter is sitting at the piano.  I ask her a question to see what she has learned prior to our meeting and her mother answers.  I had to shoosh her mother and a couple of weeks later explain that it would be best if she listened around the corner.  I tried for a year to be this child's teacher but the mom was a control freak.  i dumped her.  Other stuffed happened that is too embarrassing to mention on this board.  An only child is often a difficult situation for a mom to let go of anything. 

[pianomom697]

In my case it's almost always the parents I need to fire... Right now in the suburbs of Boston the number one problem is over-zealous parents who have their kids running from sport to class to play-dates - sometimes three or four things after school constantly.  When they say they don't have time to practice, what they really mean is their energy is spent on constant stimuli. 

I totally know where you're coming from, joyfulmusic! I am also in a suburb of Boston, and I've found (in my short experience of teaching) that I really have to weed out the kids who WANT lessons vs. the ones whose PARENTS want them in lessons. So many kids around here have NO unstructured time after school, and it's almost as if once they're left to their own devices, they don't know what to do with themselves!

I know plenty of teachers who don't really mind teaching just about anyone (money is money), and God bless 'em. Personally, though, I'm not here to "sell" the wonder of piano, or music in general, especially when a student clearly doesn't want to be there and thus resists the entire time. I've seen a few kids who have been very privileged their whole lives, and even at 9 or 10, treat their teacher like the "hired help." They learn that attitude from the parents.

So basically I'll only teach a few kids at a time. If, during the preliminary interview, I can already tell that the kid couldn't care less and the parents are just forcing the kid into yet ANOTHER activity (fodder for soccer field conversation), I won't take him in the first place. I tell the parents that they'd be better matched with another teacher. Life's too short to deal with that kind of hassle.

[danny elfboy]

So basically I'll only teach a few kids at a time. If, during the preliminary interview, I can already tell that the kid couldn't care less and the parents are just forcing the kid into yet ANOTHER activity (fodder for soccer field conversation), I won't take him in the first place. I tell the parents that they'd be better matched with another teacher. Life's too short to deal with that kind of hassle.

I can think of few things more manipulative and oppressing than parents living vicariously through their children. It's also interesting to notice that children who are oppressed with activities they haven't chosen don't become any better than most people and their insensitivity, ignorance, closed-mindedness and superficiality. But parents don't care. For them it's more important to see their children doing those things than noticing positive or negative changes because of them. They don't care whether at 30 their children are alcohol and drug addicted spending the whole night in clubs and having no respect of other life forms; what is important is that they have observed them in those previous years, doing all those activities like little ubedient soldiers. I would never teach a student who doesn't want with all his/her heart attend the lesson and I give a damn about what parents want, I don't want to have anything to do with them. They don't make the effort of practing and playing, they don't know anything about the sacrifice, hard work and love behind the activity and it's not their passion and I don't believe in cleansing their conscience by pretending that their superficial authoritarian and oppressive interest (unwanted intromission) matters anyway. Does the cooking class teacher of the mother expects the same paternalistic and hypocrite intromission from the child? Of course support, motivation and provided when requested help (either child from parents or parents from child) is always a good thing, but that's different than what I'm talking about.

[a-sharp]

evond...

how sad... your experience - for everyone - especially the child that has to live with his mom!

I had a parent get into an argument with me over lessons missed two months prior ... wanting makeup lessons and credit for every single missed lesson in the prior 3 months. I gave credit for one, and offered a makeup for another - I think there was a third, but no one could remember exactly when it was - it was January and he was talking about going back to November or prior. He ended up walking out of my house, his 4 YO (nice kid, but totally ADD & probably developmentally disabled I think) crying the entire way. The last thing he said to me was "no wonder you're not married anymore"  LOL

That is when I the moment I decided I no longer give makeup lessons! that basically fixed anything he might say about me to anyone else, lol.

(this family was *notorious* for missing the first lesson of the month - no-show or calling at the last minute with some lame excuse  - hence, I wouldn't get a check until the following week and wouldn't get paid for that first week). They did that at least 3 times out of the 5 months they were with me.

(it's also when I decided to change my policy to state payment is due on the FIRST, not on the first lesson... course - I am lax about this with my reliable parents, but some parents need this kind of thing.)

I think piano teachers get treated horribly sometimes. I think, if you choose to give makeup lessons, that is OK if it works for you, but I can't think of any other private school you would sign your child up for where they would get to make up the class if it was missed ... you pay - teacher shows up - you miss, you are SOL. Even if you're sick. (I'm sure someone will correct me, LOL... ) Anyway - I'm pretty lucky - the students and parents I have so far are great - and that one jerk - I had a bad feeling about him anyway from the beginning - and I don't miss him - I liked his kid - but he was REALLY REALLy hard to work with - WAY too young to be ready for lessons anyway... I was simply a babysitter for a half hour. He was spastic and all over the place the entire time! Granted, I needed the money - but I don't really miss them...

We can't be expected to a good fit for everyone - it's better they move on to someone else, or some*thing* else that fits everyone better... I think.

I also wouldn't worry about what those people say behind your back - I personally think most smart people see what these people are like and take what they say with a grain of salt, so to speak.

m2c

[nanabush]

I don't understand some kids... honestly.

I have a 14, nearly 15 year old girl who 'forgets' her book every week, even when I get the secretary to call her house THAT DAY!!!  Her parents come in and say "oh, sorry, we must have left it on the piano" - ya sure...

I also have a different extreme... one more advanced student who is VERY talented.  We moved through Grades 5, 6 and 7 RCM in one year, and started grade 8 this year.  His mom decides to put him in leadership camp, karate, drama club, and he is now enrolled in the IB program.  It's a shame now that he's put piano on the bottom of his to-do list.  I'm actually kinda upset, because after completing three levels (and doing very well), he was not able to learn a single Grade 8 piece in the entire year!  He wasn't even able to learn stuff from grade 6 or 7 - he had just completely lost his interest in piano when he started about 5 different things (the IB program is definately important, but I think 5 days of drama is a little excessive, especially when he was actually doing very well in piano!!)

I also have an 8 year old girl who'se parents sit in on the lessons.  She cannot figure out that the note that precedes 'G' is 'F', after a year of lessons.  She mistakes her left hand for her right hand, and scribbles on the book.  Her parents insist she's doing well, and I definately don't feel it's my place to ask how she does in school.  Confusing altogether I'd say.

Another kid's dad refuses to have him do hour lessons.  We are doing 30 minute lessons once a week, and he is starting grade 8 piano RCM and Grade 2 Rudiments.  I've told the dad a hundred times his son needs AT LEAST an hour a week, but his dad says there's no point.  That really bothers me.

Sorry, I used this thread to vent my issues from a few of my students

I'd consider 'dropping' the first two students.  The young girl I'd rather pass on to my teacher, who has told me she's dealt with students like that before, and tries to help me with lesson plans that actually have an impact on the kid.  The fourth one I wouldn't drop, but I would want him to get a new set of parents.

[joyfulmusic]

No need to apologize.  Any kind of service business gets rough at times.  What I try to look at is what ways I am acting that makes people think they can do these kinds of things without consequences.  Just about across the board my students have walked away from lessons in August.  School starts in three weeks and I have heard from no one.  For three years running I have had a waiting list.  Now I'm thinking what other occupation i could do to get by and frankly even feel like selling my piano.  Teaching piano is emotional if you invest in and care about your students.  But parents?  They are planning their next trip to Disneyworld.  Don't you think that many of us deep down are coming from a more European culture in our minds and hearts?  You know, art and culture are part of an educated, refined life.  I am reallly discouraged by the dis-respect, indifference and casual attitude of American parents towards the study of piano. 

[timothy42b]

  I am reallly discouraged by the dis-respect, indifference and casual attitude of American parents towards the study of piano. 

I think a more productive way to look at this is to realize that there is a disconnect between the goals of the parent when they pay for your services, and your own goals in what you think you are supposed to do for the child. 

This disconnect exists largely because the goals are not discussed explicitly.   (Of course, some parents don't know what their goals are, and some teachers don't care.  But those are probably both exceptions.) 

It is highly likely that the goals of American parents differ significantly from European parents, and if your internal model is the European one you are contributing to the misunderstanding. 

[joyfulmusic]

I appreciate your feedback.  However, I have had many explicit conversations with the families of my students.  And they profess to adore me and I have been much sought after because of the values that I teach their children.  It's just that there is this feeding frenzy in the Boston suburbs.  Children are signed up for "everything".  I have students who are in Soccer, Lacrosse, horseback-riding, gymnastics, theater, spanish, french, swimming, football... and on and on.  And these children are 8 years old!  And these are all after school activities.  While I'm finishing a lesson, the mom is standing there with her coat on and the c hild's coat in hand because they have to be somewhere else ten minutes after the piano lesson.  If I get caught in traffic they freak because we started 5 or 10 minutes late.

[danny elfboy]

I think you might be able to notice what kind of parent you're talking to when a young child auditions. From the way they talk, about their motivation and the child motivation, about their relationship with music and their expectations ... you should be able to determine whether you are dealing with a sensitive intelligent human being or an idiot.

[danny elfboy]

Children are signed up for "everything".  I have students who are in Soccer, Lacrosse, horseback-riding, gymnastics, theater, spanish, french, swimming, football... and on and on. 

This might be a positive thing though or not.
This might be one of the most disgusting phenomena of our time "parents living vicariously through their children"

Or this might actually be the children finally understanding how to enjoy life in the modern time. Whether we study at schools or work in an office we're workers. So we all perceive the difference between working time and free time. When we think of free time we tend to think of two things: friends and interesting activities. We crave sociality more than food and for a long time our cities were pure socialization cores, just a bigger version of what villages used to be.

In the last century though this changed.
Cities have become asocial places, urban places and families have become alienating, the streets belong to the cars rather than the people and green areas for ricreation have reduced massively. People of whatever age should have started seeking more social aggregation in this alienation but they found bad substitutes like television and video-games.

The real solution and the substitute for the sociality we have lost is indeed represented by like-minded groups and activities to share with people interested in the same thing. Sport and arts are the most socializing and aggregating of them all. But also organized trips, volunteering, languages, cooking. This healthy trend has influnced all people of whatever age. For example an aunt of mine recovered her pleasure of living by starting a pottery decoration course. She also found a lot of friends there. And then started a sailing course. And now has bought a small ship with dividing the expenses with her new found friends and I have never seen her more fulfilled. A shy and asocial 9 year old lost all his boredome and ibhibition when he started a dance course. I went to his recital and although he was the only male he didn't look embarassed at all. Another young friend unpredictability found her fulfillment in being a medieval young lady. Here in europe every medieval town has a historical commemoration where the city is dressed according to its medieval heritage and so all the people. On the streets you can find all the people doing the ancient tasks like seeling drugs, selling swords, removing teeth, sewing flax clothes, fixing shields. There are also the king and the queen and their procession and the drummers and also the falconers. Anyway last time I went to such commemoration she was the queen young child dancing at the royal court and the guests from another kingdom. Her free time is spent to prepare the next commemoration for another town with the friends she made at each in this world.

It's also important how this way to live life and our free time completely destrois the negative and artificial intergenerrational barriers since the activitity is not targeted but free for everyone who like it and so are the interraction between like-minded people who are formed there.

It's a myth that a young child needs these things less. That all it takes is to live, that it's easy to enjoy free time at that age. Every member of our society is craving the social interactions we have lost, the sharing of similar passions with like-minded people. I have never felt friendship so strong as when I travelled with a group of other piano students to play at a competition. Sharing the train, the room, the worries, helping each other for the same goals.

As someone said "child play is just an attempt to enter in the real world"
Whatever child would prefer 100 times more to cook a real meal in a real kitchen with real people than to pretend to cock with a toy kitchen. Even young children prefer to spend their free time doing something concrete rather than abstract and trivial. Think of boy scouts. I remember working hard when I was at the boyscouts. We had a small head quarter in the wood and we had to keep it clean. This included sweeping the floor, removing the dust. We would build things. We would cut woods, wake up early when on camps. It was just wonderful. The hardest work was organizing a fund rising. We had to build all the stands, the decorations, organize the activities and the food and also the flood of people that would come. We were covered in sweat at the end and extremely tired but could have never been happier.

I suggested a 24 year old friend of mine who wasn't interested in the destructive recreation made of alcohol, drugs, load techno music and couldn't find any friend and spent all her free time watching tv, to find something she liked and to find a group dealing with that thing. She realized she loved chess. Her first chessboard was my present to her. She found an association of chess players and found a lot of real friends.
 
Back to your students. As long as they desire doing what they do and as long as they're fulfilled, socialize more and found a concrete constructive and creative way to spend their time, giving a stronger sense to their life and building a strong sense of community, it's nothing but positive.

[joyfulmusic]

Very interesting post... I recently turned in my cable t.v. box because I'm fed up with what's on cable t.v.  i realized that I want to be doing things with real people not an electronic box.  My 30 year old son recently spent a week in Pennsylvania at an event which 10,000 people attended called Penzic.  They enact sword fights and have villages of entire communities sleeping in tents and practicing the ancient arts.  I totally agree with you in principle regarding the choices and freedom we crave as human beings.  I do not see happy smiling faces on these children as a rule.  They are exhausted.  And I really don't buy that thousands of children are all waking up saying I want to play soccer, and be good at every single thing that is offered in the schools.  I live near an incredibly affluent town.  It has a fabulous music program and sports and and.  It's called Lincoln-Sudbury Regional.  However, it is also known as Drink and Drugsbury.  The instant gratification aspect of this culture is creating addicts by the thousands.