is my keyboard teacher right?

[bonjing]

okay, In my keyboard class we played minuet by bach and i know this piece very well but when we had one on one she said that i have to work on my fingers and not my wrist. Was she right? And she doesn't like the way my fingers played eventhough i played it without tension but she got mad and my Piano professor don't do that to me. She really get on my nerves, seriously.

[gerryjay]

okay, In my keyboard class we played minuet by bach and i know this piece very well but when we had one on one she said that i have to work on my fingers and not my wrist. Was she right? And she doesn't like the way my fingers played eventhough i played it without tension but she got mad and my Piano professor don't do that to me. She really get on my nerves, seriously.

hey bonjing!

about the wrist/finger question, it´s impossible to say without a specific point considered. you must be able to use both finger action and wrist action, but what depends on the actual part of the music.

then, perhaps she is right and your other teacher is not. or the contrary...again, it´s hard to say based only in your brief description.

however, if she gets you mad...well, there are two alternatives: give her a chance, heart wide open, and try to do things her way for a month or two and see what happens. if that doesn´t suceed, quit for once and for good!

best regards, and good luck.

[danny elfboy]

Baroque music requires more finger articulation than say romantic music.
But this doesn't mean that you must keep your arm and wrist stiff or still.
Whatever you do don't raise your finger high to struck the key from an height especially if they're curled like claw. You'll lose suppleness and long term harm you.

[jlh]

It's difficult to say if she is right or not based on what you said.  Like the others said, baroque music requires more finger articulation than some other styles, but there is always wrist movement to some degree.  You should never play with ONLY your fingers --  that promotes tension.

It would be easier for us to determine if what she said to you was to compensate for a possible tendency on your part to play with TOO much wrist motion and not enough finger articulation if you were to, say, post a video of you playing the menuet the way you normally play it... 

[guendola]

Well, keyboard is keyboard and piano is piano. Techniques are different on both instruments and while on piano, you can do a lot with dynamics you have articulation on the keyboard instead, which requires other techniques again. You can safely assume that both teachers are right, when it comes to their instrument.

Did you actually tell your teacher that you have learned to play this piece in a different way on piano? If you told me, I would reply "well, now you are learning how to play it on the keyboard".

[jlh]

Well, keyboard is keyboard and piano is piano. Techniques are different on both instruments and while on piano, you can do a lot with dynamics you have articulation on the keyboard instead, which requires other techniques again.

You can safely assume that both teachers are right, when it comes to their instrument.

Their instrument?  That's absurd. 

Lesson number 1:  don't assume.  never assume.  Why?  because it will only make an a** of u and me.  lol truly.  read the word.

Technique is the same for piano as it is for keyboards.  True if it is a really cheap keyboard there will be differences, but the technique is the same (use your weight, articulate, etc.).  There is not difference in technique, only in your management of dynamics. 

Pianos ARE keyboards.  We've only recently forgot this fact as pianists since we have electronic instruments now.  Does a drummer change their TECHNIQUE when they play on MIDI drums?  Don't separate the instruments based on electronics and say that a piano teacher is incapable of teaching on an electronic keyboard. 

Your whole argument doesn't make sense.

[faulty_damper]

Technique is the same for piano as it is for keyboards.  True if it is a really cheap keyboard there will be differences, but the technique is the same (use your weight, articulate, etc.).  There is not difference in technique, only in your management of dynamics. 

The mechanical differences of a piano and a keyboard are such that they require a different approach.  In fact, almost all keyboards, except those with real piano actions, require a different approach to depressing the keys.  If the technique were the same, then any piece of music that could be performed on a piano can be performed on a keyboard.  But anyone who has every tried this knows that isn't always possible.

[jlh]

The mechanical differences of a piano and a keyboard are such that they require a different approach.  In fact, almost all keyboards, except those with real piano actions, require a different approach to depressing the keys.  If the technique were the same, then any piece of music that could be performed on a piano can be performed on a keyboard.  But anyone who has every tried this knows that isn't always possible.

Ok, then what exactly should one do different technically on a keyboard that would so separate the keyboard from the piano that a piano teacher would not be able to teach on it?

That was my point. 

[Petter]

Ok, then what exactly should one do different technically on a keyboard that would so separate the keyboard from the piano that a piano teacher would not be able to teach on it?

That was my point. 

you can turn it off when it sounds bad

[faulty_damper]

There are many things, since there is more than one difference between a piano and keyboard.

A piano has a whippen which is the core of the piano action.  Almost all the technology of a piano action is located here.  It gives a modern piano the piano feel.  The friction of the jack against the knuckle of the hammer shank can be felt as the key is depressed.  This friction allows the pianist feel how much pressure is needed to play incredibly softly.

A piano action has an escape mechanism.  To overcome this resistance, slightly more pressure must be applied once the key has reached close to the keybed.  This mechanism is one component that allows for fast, repeated notes.

A piano has hammers which can be manipulated with the keys.  The inertia caused by the jack applying force upward causes the hammer to strike the strings.  In fact, a hammer can be put in limbo, neither striking the string nor sitting at rest.  This cannot be done on a keyboard.

Once the hammer strikes the strings, the hammer is stopped in place by the backcheck assuming the key is still depressed.  This can be felt through the key.  The backcheck is also an important part of rapid repeated notes.

A piano action has dampers.  Each damper is activated by depressing the keys to a certain point right when the key end touches the damper weight.  Once contact is made, the key lifts the damper off the string allowing the string to vibrate.  Each damper is slightly different in weight, the bass strings are the heaviest and progressively become lighter into the treble strings.  Thus, once the key lifts the damaper, the key requires more force to depress.  Also, each damper can mute a string slowly or quickly and this ability allows for legato and staccato playing.

A piano has a solid keybed with felt key stops to absorb shock.  Keyboards have a different construction and it is more comfortable to play forcefully because of the shock absorption and extra resistance from components such as the escapement.

A piano has wires that vibrate and each vibration affects other wires.  This gives a piano real sound and real physics.  Vibrations can be collected to create massive sounds where all strings are allowed to vibrate.  These accoustic properties are entirely lacking in a keyboard where sounds are reproduced electronically using binary data.  Sounding one note on a keyboard will have no effect on the sound of another.  This has severe consequences for pedalling because things do not blur on a keyboard that may on a piano.


As some of the examples above show, most of the differences between a piano and keyboard involve touch.  A pianist will have a marked advantage to a keyboardist in virtually all areas because of the technical nuances that can be learned on a piano.  These nuances are impossible on a keyboard.

Also, since making music is of utmost priority, the sound that is created by a piano is directly nuanced by the pianist.  A keyboard instrument uses pre-recorded sound and only sounds that were recorded can be played back.  Compare this to the virtually infinite tonal possibilities of a piano.  Since sound gives the musician immediate feedback, technique is adopted to create the best tone.  This cannot be done on a keyboard because only pre-recorded sounds are created.

There is only one advantage a keyboard has over the piano in terms of music-making:
When someone else sound like sh*t, you can turn it off.
And when you sound like sh*t... 

[jlh]

I am well versed in the nomenclature and functional aspects of both piano and keyboard, but I thank you for your attention to detail.  One detail left out, however, is my initial question:  specifically what difference is there that would disqualify a piano teacher from teaching on a keyboard or vice versa?  This is in direct reference to guendola's post. 

[guendola]

I am well versed in the nomenclature and functional aspects of both piano and keyboard, but I thank you for your attention to detail.  One detail left out, however, is my initial question:  specifically what difference is there that would disqualify a piano teacher from teaching on a keyboard or vice versa?  This is in direct reference to guendola's post. 

In what way does this refer to my post? I never said anything alike. What I said is that a teacher who teaches keyboard will usually not refer to techniques or styles that are exclusive to the piano and vice versa.

A piano is a very subtle sound machine and you need a lot of technique to manage all the abilities. A keyboard is crude: Sound is on or off (I am not talking about the electronic sound generators, just about the "controls" - i.e. the keys). So you have to use other techniques to shape the sound. Both instruments, when played badly will sound dull and boring. Now, when you have piano lessons, you will learn the way to play well on a piano but during keyboard lessons, you learn the way to play well on a keyboard. As a consequence, the same piece must be played in in different ways to get good results on both instruments.

jlh, if you play both keyboard and piano exactly the same way, you are missing a lot of possibilities at last on one of the instruments!

[faulty_damper]

If I know a student has a keyboard and not a piano, I rarely focus on piano technique because I know they will not be able to recreate the sound on their keyboard.  My priorities are focused on learning the performance of rhythms on and off the piano, note reading and the coordination of the hands on the piano, listening skills, response skills, etc.  I focus on teaching music and not piano playing because they do not have a piano at home.

I once had a young student about 9 years old with terrible technique.  He had a full-sized weighted keyboard at home and presses the crap out of the keybed probably because it could not or was not allowed to generate loud sounds.  His mother really wanted him to play classical music and she forced him to practice every day.  There was nothing I could do about his technique and I knew I would just waste more time if I focused on it.  I told his mother that I couldn't teach him to play the kind of music she wanted him to play because he doesn't have a piano.  His interest was very low even though he actually enjoyed playing the piano; it was an athletic activity for him and the more challenging the movements the more he enjoyed it.  This wasn't music-making and with a keyboard, an un-developed ear which would get worse the more he plays on his keyboard, he was doomed.

So tell me if this addresses your notions that teaching technique is the same for both piano and keyboard.

[jlh]

Well I guess I'm glad I wasn't one of your students then...  If I were, I most likely wouldn't have the Grammy Award winning music career I have now, and most likely wouldn't be auditioning for a DMA program in piano performance this month.  Why?  Because growing up I never had a good piano.  The only 'piano' available was a digital piano and that got me through highschool and worked well enough for me to be accepted to a piano performance BM program with full scholarship.  If I didn't go there I wouldn't have made the contacts I made that enabled me to start singing with a professional choir that just this year won a Grammy award.  If I were not allowed to play certain kinds of music because I played on a digital piano I would have been robbed of many opportunities.

So believe me when I say I know the differences between keyboards and pianos.  I also know that if one is playing on a good digital piano one can STILL learn proper technique and you should not shy away from teaching it just because a student is not rich enough to afford a grand piano.

I'm not saying that the technique is in every way common to both instruments.  Certainly there is a huge difference in sound (keyboards not being able to produce overtones, etc), as well as a huge range of touch sensitivity.  Even on just 1 keyboard you will have a different touch curve at a high volume level than you will have at a low volume level.  There is technique that IS common to both instruments and I'm sorry that both of you can't see this basic aspect.  All I'm saying is that these days unless you have a $100 keyboard, most keyboards and digital pianos made these days so closely model real pianos that it's not like you're playing on an organ anymore.  The way you move your hands, the way you drop your weight into the keys, the way you articulate, etc are very similar in their execution no matter what instrument you're playing on (unless on an organ or early keyboard instrument).

Perhaps it's just that since I've played on such a wide variety of pianos/keyboards that I adjust to the differences quickly, I dunno.  In the end it's all about the sounds you make, and given all the differences even amongst acoustic pianos one must modify the movements one makes just to play on them.

[guendola]

The only 'piano' available was a digital piano

That's a piano, not a keyboard!

[musicrebel4u]

Well I guess I'm glad I wasn't one of your students then...  If I were, I most likely wouldn't have the Grammy Award winning music career I have now, and most likely wouldn't be auditioning for a DMA program in piano performance this month.  Why?  Because growing up I never had a good piano.  The only 'piano' available was a digital piano and that got me through highschool and worked well enough for me to be accepted to a piano performance BM program with full scholarship.  If I didn't go there I wouldn't have made the contacts I made that enabled me to start singing with a professional choir that just this year won a Grammy award.  If I were not allowed to play certain kinds of music because I played on a digital piano I would have been robbed of many opportunities.

So believe me when I say I know the differences between keyboards and pianos.  I also know that if one is playing on a good digital piano one can STILL learn proper technique and you should not shy away from teaching it just because a student is not rich enough to afford a grand piano.

I'm not saying that the technique is in every way common to both instruments.  Certainly there is a huge difference in sound (keyboards not being able to produce overtones, etc), as well as a huge range of touch sensitivity.  Even on just 1 keyboard you will have a different touch curve at a high volume level than you will have at a low volume level.  There is technique that IS common to both instruments and I'm sorry that both of you can't see this basic aspect.  All I'm saying is that these days unless you have a $100 keyboard, most keyboards and digital pianos made these days so closely model real pianos that it's not like you're playing on an organ anymore.  The way you move your hands, the way you drop your weight into the keys, the way you articulate, etc are very similar in their execution no matter what instrument you're playing on (unless on an organ or early keyboard instrument).

Perhaps it's just that since I've played on such a wide variety of pianos/keyboards that I adjust to the differences quickly, I dunno.  In the end it's all about the sounds you make, and given all the differences even amongst acoustic pianos one must modify the movements one makes just to play on them.

I can't agree more!
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https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,28705.0.html