Reversing a cycle of frustration

[m19834]

I have recently acquired a student who is in a cycle of playing problems and feels he is in a bit of a musical/personal crisis because of it.  He has developed physical problems as a result of problematic technique and these problems have become so severe that he is in pain at the piano and at the computer.  I believe I can help him physically to find the right motions and an efficient, pain-free technique, but it is his mental state that I am concerned about.

He is so frustrated about not being able to play the piano in the way that he wants, that it is actually adding to the problem and is a big part of what makes his current state a "cycle."  The greater his mental frustration is, the more it physically manifests in ways that are painful and in ways that block his intentions, and the more the physique gets in the way, the more mentally frustrated he is.  I am aiming to reverse the cycle altogether and put it on a different track.

In order to do this, I feel he must first accept that what he is currently doing is not working for him, it is not correct, and needs to be changed.  He is going to need to be patient because he is going to need to start from scratch.  Part of the problem is in getting him to realize the importance of a healthier state of mind, without ignoring or belittling the feelings he is currently experiencing (and therefore adding to the frustration). 

I think it's underestimated by many people just how much a person needs to change sometimes.  It can be something which feels like it's at the very core of one's existence, and that kind of change won't happen overnight and the path certainly will not always be clear.  There will be deeply-rooted beliefs and fears, there will be experiences that have seemed to cause trauma.  I think that these are all related and must be addressed in a way that gives a positive force to one's endeavors.

How do you suggest a person "use" this kind of frustration in a positive way ?  In a way that will eventually alleviate the frustration, and in this case, reverse the cycle that he is currently in ?

Perhaps somebody on this board can relate in some way and feels they may have something to offer on this subject.  Or perhaps teachers have had experience with similar cases and have something to add.

Thanks for your thoughts and ideas .

Karli

[gerry]

Sounds to me like you're treading into areas that might be better left to professionals. It may be that the student needs to rest and recover before pushing on even if it is in a different direction. The responses to this thread I would hope for would be to hear at what point piano teachers (since they are often at the root of the problem in the first place) realize their limits in an area such as this and advise professional help with a  therapist (physical and/or mental) or an orthopedist. Your intentions sound admirable and you do sound convinced that you are able to help, but just realize that you've got a human being who has developed muscle as well as related psychological problems...be very careful how you advise.

[m19834]

Sounds to me like you're treading into areas that might be better left to professionals.

So, you are suggesting that I am merely a little tulip or so ?   Or perhaps you will give me the credit of at least being a professional tulip .

[gerry]

Not sure what "tulip" means in this context but forgive me if I didn't realize you might also be a medical professional. I think the intent of my posting was perfectly clear.

[m19834]

Well, the intent seems to be that you suggest I stay away from these matters altogether.  Am I wrong ?  Or that if I don't, I at least be careful in how I go about it as if I didn't already know this.  For all you know, he is already enrolled with the "professionals" that you have mentioned. 

Bare in mind, I am not asking for advices on physical matters that can be read and misunderstood by others perusing this forum, nor am I asking for psychological leads which should be addressed and handled.  I am speaking about helping a person to divert their frustrations about not being able to play the piano and be a musician as they would like, since patience will be necessary as we venture into our work together.  What is, to you, so complicated about that topic ?  And, how is this not the responsibility of a piano/music teacher ?

[Petter]

Is his self image closely connected with his ability to play piano? And is he willing on his own to change his playing in order to improve? I think you stand a good chance of helping him unless its something forced on him. And how old is he?

[gerry]

For all you know, he is already enrolled with the "professionals" that you have mentioned.

A common problem encountered when this information is not offered in the first place.

Bare in mind, I am not asking for advices on physical matters that can be read and misunderstood by others perusing this forum, nor am I asking for psychological leads which should be addressed and handled.

I sounded like you were doing just that when you posted the following:

He has developed physical problems as a result of problematic technique and these problems have become so severe that he is in pain at the piano and at the computer.  I believe I can help him physically to find the right motions and an efficient, pain-free technique, but it is his mental state that I am concerned about.

And, how is this not the responsibility of a piano/music teacher ?

All I was suggesting is that it might be a wise move to become one in a"team" of specialists, if you will--something, if true, you didn't make entirely clear in your original posting. Good luck.

[m19834]

I do see your points, gerry, but I have to say that I find it funny that a piano teacher is "supposed" to be a professional in being able to help a person to develop all of the necessities in becoming an efficient piano player and musician, but is somehow automatically, professionally unequipped if there stands a need for correction in these areas.   Don't you find that to be a little odd ?

Efficient and sound methods are efficient and sound methods, and if I am not equipped to help a person "correct" the wrong ones, then I might as well close my doors because I am not equipped then to help anybody to develop the right ones either.  Who is supposed to help a person to know how to mentally and physically play the piano and be a musician better than a piano/music teacher ?

Which, by the way, brings up an interesting point about teachers in general.

Perhaps all piano teachers should be either also a medical and psychological professional or part of a team.  Wouldn't you agree ?

In any event, you have still avoided the topic but I thank you for cautionary warnings and wishes of good luck ! 

[gerry]

I'm  not a teacher and I apologize for not addresing your specific question. I agree with you that, of course in an ideal world, a piano teacher should be able to address such problems. My concerns arose mostly from reading about irreversible damage that has been incurred as the result of good intentions. In the past, piano teachers didn't have things like computer-related injuries to complicate their task, and, as a result, we're constantly learning more and more about arm, wrist, and hand physiology and musculature. All your hard work with this student at the piano may work at the time, but if he is sitting at a computer/mouse wrong, it could be counterproductive.

I didn't mean for a moment to belittle your abilities and commonsense and I admire your decision to take this student on under such circumstances with all the attendant time, worry and effort it will take on your part--probably not being compensated $$$-wise for your extra effort! Your posting had an "idealistic" tone to it so I was just injecting a cautionary note to consider along with your enthusiasm--that's all. Now let's take on the day.

[counterpoint]

karli, I see two major dangers in this situation, as you described it:

1.

that you, as the teacher, try to change and "correct" the student's behaviour totally - could easily turn in a sort of brainwash.

2.

that your student gets the feeling, everything he did until now was completely wrong and worthless.


I would suggest to make only occasional comments on his playing, mainly to show him the beauty of music. There may be many things wrong in his "technique" or in his musical approach - but you can't fix anything that is wrong at once. So the most important thing is to make him feel comfortable with the pieces he play. To give him the feeling of freedom. That will take some months. After that, you can work with him more straightforward. But until then: just let him cool down and warm up.

[Bob]

.

[johnk]

When you speak of the need for people to change, be careful to not be implying that his basic personality or physical identity is deficient. He will naturally react if he feels he is being threatened. Even telling him his technique is wrong may make him defensive. We are often not aware of ourselves physically untill we see a picture or hear a recording of ourselves.

I would suggest using a webcam to let him see himself objectively, and get him to consider what may be causing his problems himself. Telling him he is doing something inefficiently may just not sink in, whereas seeing himself on video may be just the revelation he needs to realise a change in the way he does it could be the solution to his problems.

But also keep in mind that if he has overuse syndrome, nothing will cure him immediately. I had RSI problems which lasted 5 years in my 40s. For me, swimming seemed to be the catylist that started my recovery.

[m19834]

I will be quick for now, but I just wanted to add that I will be seeing him 5 days a week for half an hour each day, for 3-6 months.  It is already agreed that this time he is at lessons with me will be his only time at the piano for about a month until I am sure he is developing properly and can be trusted on his own.  He has already realized on his own, and I have already affirmed his realization, that he will be completely renovating his technique and we have already addressed his computer use and he has purchased an ergonomic keyboard and we will talk about how he needs to sit at that, too.  He recognizes the need for all of this and wants to do this, it is, afterall, completely *his* choice.  He is consciously and decidedly "in" because learning to play in the way he wants to means that much to him, and he has music that he wants to write (and has written) and be able to play it himself. 

There are a lot of good comments and recommendations here, I thank you and I will be back soon ! 

Thanks,
Karli

[gerry]

Thanks for the update.

[counterpoint]

I will be quick for now, but I just wanted to add that I will be seeing him 5 days a week for half an hour each day, for 3-6 months. 

Sorry, but that sounds completely wierd to me.

[m19834]

Sorry, but that sounds completely wierd to me.

Apology accepted  .

[counterpoint]

Apology accepted  .

I will never tolerate brainwashing methods.

You're responsible for what you do!

[m19834]

I will never tolerate brainwashing methods.

*point against point* ... hey !  Look, everybody !  It's counterpoint !  What an interesting motif you present .   What would be the retrograde ?

methods brainwashing tolerate never will I 

(that sounds like Yoda ... maybe Yoda's whole speech secret is "retrograde" ... does he wear bell-bottoms ?  Oh, wait, that's "retro" ... but, isn't "retro" short for retrograde ?  Maybe somebody will swoop in and let us know).

or would it actually be :

sdohtem gnihsawniarb etarelot reven lliw I


-- that looks German or Latin or something, don't you think ?  Hey, anybody speak German or Latin and is willing to translatatoriationary for us ?



ps -- *singing voice*  Yooooda, yo-yo-yo-yo yoooo da

[Bob]

.

[pianowolfi]

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2260.msg19270.html#msg19270

[mknueven]

I'd say that retraining is something that you do with a lot of tact and a lot of focus on one thing at a time.
When learning new technique - it is very helpful for the teacher to select some material
that is under the student's level - but still something satisfying to learn.

This way - you can focus on different aspects of technique - and they will be able to focus a lot more on the technique than the material - as in getting complicated rhtyms down.
It takes a lot less time for the feeling of accomplishment in learning the piece -

I have retrained - so that is what helped me.  Suggesting that the student keeps a musical journal can be very helpful and good for self -esteem later.

A huge amount of professionalism coupled with humility - really helps too.  I was blessed with a teacher that had that.

If you focus on more than one aspect to a high degree - it will make the student feel they are doing everything wrong -  You may think they are - but you have to give them credit for what they are doing right - are they a good reader?  is their rhtym reading good?
Are they very expressive? 

[Bob]

.

[m19834]

hmmm... I believe my question was initially :

How do you suggest a person "use" this kind of frustration in a positive way ?

I have to say, I find it a bit ironic that I have been getting responses from people who have no idea who I am ( ) and don't really know the way that I teach, and whom have a basically very limited concept of anything related to me, advising me that I am not qualified for certain advisings to my students in everyday life.  What, exactly, qualifies any of you to be advising me on what I am qualified to be advising my students in ?

In any event, I do still appreciate the comments, all of them, I would just like to advise some of you to pay more attention  .  People are saying that I have written things that I actually haven't.

Also, I have never mentioned Bernhard in this thread, Pianowolfi is the one who quoted that, although I have been inspired by Bernhard's posts .  I'll be back once tomorrow is over and I can breathe again .

Thanks,
Karli

[Bob]

.

[m19834]

.

Did you actually mean 'spaghetti' ?  Anyway, Bob, why in the world did you erase all of your posts ?  Did you save them ?  Will you put them back now ?  I was going to respond to some of what you have posted, but I just haven't yet. 

[mknueven]

Karli,
THis is a piano forum - not Juliard.  (Although some may be from Juliard)
If you think you're so far above us - why bother asking anything?
Do you know who we are? 
As far as I can see - people are just trying to help.
Pardon me if I haven't spent my last three days analyzing your question and who you
might be.

[m19834]

Karli,
THis is a piano forum - not Juliard.  (Although some may be from Juliard)
If you think you're so far above us - why bother asking anything?
Do you know who we are? 
As far as I can see - people are just trying to help.
Pardon me if I haven't spent my last three days analyzing your question and who you
might be.

 

Actually, as I have stated before, I have very much appreciated everybody's comments.  And, I don't think I am above anybody at all.  I have no idea who most of "you" are, just as most of "you" have no idea who I am.  As stated, I just find it a bit ironic that people who don't know me (I am just me, btw), are advising me that I don't know enough to help my students.  I am not mad  .

In any event, I especially appreciated your response, mknueven, I just haven't had a chance to respond directly to it yet.

[m19834]

Is his self image closely connected with his ability to play piano?

I will try to answer this within the context of what I am actually asking.  His self image is connected to his ability to play, as much as he is willing to put in the effort required to play correctly (which will require a lot of effort, so I assume it is very important to him).  Since it is obviously important for him to express something artistic and something that has an element of originality to it (he is a composer), I would like to find another avenue for him to start expressing himself in a way that may relieve some of the mental stress caused by his playing problems.  I would like to start relieving the mental strains as we go about relieving the physical. 

Ideally, learning proper motions and practice methods would immediately begin to relieve some mental stress, but he may be a little too stressed to notice right away (I guess we will see), so in a way I would like to divert his attention a bit as well as create more space within his artistic mentality, from which to work and continue to build from.

[m19834]

karli, I see two major dangers in this situation, as you described it:

1.

that you, as the teacher, try to change and "correct" the student's behaviour totally - could easily turn in a sort of brainwash.

If there is anything I am actually brainwashing, it is in him getting the idea that he must become capable and trusting about relying on himself.  Right now though, he does need help from an outside source in knowing which elements of what he is doing are going to help him, and which ones are going to hinder him.

2.

that your student gets the feeling, everything he did until now was completely wrong and worthless.


I would suggest to make only occasional comments on his playing, mainly to show him the beauty of music. There may be many things wrong in his "technique" or in his musical approach - but you can't fix anything that is wrong at once. So the most important thing is to make him feel comfortable with the pieces he play. To give him the feeling of freedom. That will take some months. After that, you can work with him more straightforward. But until then: just let him cool down and warm up.

There is some valuable stuff in here.  Yes, actually, every motion we will look at together, he has probably already figured out in some way on his own.  He probably uses most of them everyday without being aware of it.  So, in a sense, I feel my main goal is to show him which ones are helpful and which ones are not.  We will develop his awareness of what is positive and build from there. 

I have realized that the perfect distraction from his furstration is within the music itself (duh !).  So, I appreciate your suggestions very much !  However, I will limit myself to comments that are necessary in each moment, whether they be occasional or many.  In any event, this is one benefit of having everyday lessons, we don't have to try to correct everything in one day !  It allows the time that is truly needed to address things properly and without hurry.

[m19834]

I'd say that retraining is something that you do with a lot of tact and a lot of focus on one thing at a time.

Yes, this is a great suggestion and a big part of the reason why everyday lessons are a very good idea (aside from the fact that he needs daily monitoring).

When learning new technique - it is very helpful for the teacher to select some material
that is under the student's level - but still something satisfying to learn.

 

Yes, this is a good reminder and I believe I will have this aspect "covered," but it was your suggestion that reminded me of a particular something that I have at my disposal to work with.

This way - you can focus on different aspects of technique - and they will be able to focus a lot more on the technique than the material - as in getting complicated rhtyms down.
It takes a lot less time for the feeling of accomplishment in learning the piece -

Yes, and our physical work will be hidden now within the musical context.

I have retrained - so that is what helped me.  Suggesting that the student keeps a musical journal can be very helpful and good for self -esteem later.

 

Great suggestion !

A huge amount of professionalism coupled with humility - really helps too.  I was blessed with a teacher that had that.

 

Happy to hear it !

If you focus on more than one aspect to a high degree - it will make the student feel they are doing everything wrong -  You may think they are - but you have to give them credit for what they are doing right - are they a good reader?  is their rhtym reading good?
Are they very expressive?

Great points !  Thanks !

[m19834]

When you speak of the need for people to change, be careful to not be implying that his basic personality or physical identity is deficient. He will naturally react if he feels he is being threatened. Even telling him his technique is wrong may make him defensive. We are often not aware of ourselves physically untill we see a picture or hear a recording of ourselves.

I would suggest using a webcam to let him see himself objectively, and get him to consider what may be causing his problems himself. Telling him he is doing something inefficiently may just not sink in, whereas seeing himself on video may be just the revelation he needs to realise a change in the way he does it could be the solution to his problems.

These are good points and I have decided to keep a sort of video journal for both of our sakes.  I will use these to review daily on my own, but also to perhaps point out some specific things to him as well.  Then, we will compare progress from week to week and month to month as well.

But also keep in mind that if he has overuse syndrome, nothing will cure him immediately. I had RSI problems which lasted 5 years in my 40s. For me, swimming seemed to be the catylist that started my recovery.

Yes, everything we do at the instrument will have a direct purpose and we will definitely not overuse.  Thanks for your suggestions and I am happy to hear about your recovery .

[mknueven]

Karli,
Thanks for your post -
Communicating on boards has it's limitations - our tone
is not heard many times.
So thanks again! Sorry for misunderstanding you.