What about Jazz?

[Petter]

Indutrial would this be of any interest to you?



or perhaps this record

[slobone]

Well, I like Jazz.  My favorite would have to be Teddy Wilson.  Has anyone listened to his rendition of "You Go To My Head" and "Shiny Stockings"?  It's really great, and I think he's an amazing pianist.

Yes, I agree, one of my favorites.

But my all-time favorite would have to be Thelonious Monk, both as composer and performer. One of the great figures in American music.

And yet he was anything but a virtuoso, or at least chose not to play in that way. Everything was all of a piece with him, the rhythm, the harmony, the voicings, the compositions. Other musicians (like Coltrane and Miles Davis) who played with him found it very difficult to learn his highly individual approach.

[oscarr111111]

https://rapidshare.com/files/122046814/The_Black_Saint_and_the_Sinner_Lady.zip.html

Enjoy, one of the greatest compositions and musical achievements of all time by the standards of any genre (and this CD actually has more in common with a classical recording than a Jazz record in some respects, its a 6 part ballet suite orchestrated in great detail with an 11 piece ensemble).  Either way its something that everyone who calls themselves a musician should enjoy.

[instromp]

Favorite Old School.

-Tatum

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaPeks0H3_s

[well-tempered]

No I wouldn't have, since I did not and what I said is true. As I said on another thread I think, I can admit the artistry is there sometimes, but it's still Jazz. Jazz musicians do not know more about music theory, they know everything about the theory of how to classify ONE single chord, wich is what, 1% of the world of "theory". Classical musicians own jazz ones on every single other aspect.

You are dead wrong, I argue Oscar Peterson...end of discussion

on a separate note: I think there is a such a rich pool of talent that has come from Canada, i.e., Glenn Gould, Oscar Peterson, Bill Evans, Anton Kuerti, Louis Lortie, Jon Kimura Parker, and more.

My favorite classical pianist is Glenn Gould, my favorite Jazz pianists are Oscar Peterson and Bill Evans, and I think Anton Kuerti has done some amazing things.
Any others I'm missing?

[oscarr111111]

on a separate note: I think there is a such a rich pool of talent that has come from Canada, i.e., Glenn Gould, Oscar Peterson, Bill Evans, Anton Kuerti, Louis Lortie, Jon Kimura Parker, and more.

Geddy Lee 

[webern78]

I really like Coltrane myself. I even enjoyed his late work, and i'm not generally fond of avant-garde, which says much.

[Petter]

I really like Coltrane myself. I even enjoyed his late work, and i'm not generally fond of avant-garde, which says much.

I love him too, but I canīt stand soprano sax. I blame Kenny G.

[slobone]

I love him too, but I canīt stand soprano sax. I blame Kenny G.

He only played soprano occasionally. Mostly he was on tenor sax.

And hey, if we wanted to list great jazz pianists, I think McCoy Tyner belongs on the list.

[frigo]

Favorite Old School.

-Tatum

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaPeks0H3_s

Yes, Tatum is fantastic...
I've read  something about his amazing technique: Tatum's performances passed on the radio, and some "specialists", that didn't met Tatum yet, said that it was a marketing strategy: to put two piano players saying that's only one.... hearing Tatum make us believe there ae two persons on the piano...

[oscarr111111]

As far as I know he started off by learning piano rolls for 4 hands mainly by feel as his eyesight was very poor, not knowing that the pieces were for 4 hands he somehow managed to play them with only 2.  This is probably why his style more than most Jazz pianists sounds like 2 people are playing simultaneously.

[indutrial]

I love him too, but I canīt stand soprano sax. I blame Kenny G.

Soprano sax can be excellent as long as the player doesn't just squeal away on its higher notes for too long. Almost all of my favorite sax players are alto players, many of whom double on bass clarinet (which is a jazz and classical favorite of mine) I'm also a huge fan of the baritone sax thanks to Pepper Adams.

Here's a good duo track by pianist Marc Copland and tenor sax player Dave Liebman. The composition is Jimmy Guiffre's "Cry Want." I've often become engrossed in Copland's amazing ability to make a simple lead sheet/harmonic progression take on dimensions more common with classical piano music circa the first half of the 1900s.

[Petter]

How is the record with Paul Motian and Gary Peacock? They are among my favorites on their instruments. Im "." this close to buying it.

[indutrial]

How is the record with Paul Motian and Gary Peacock? They are among my favorites on their instruments. Im "." this close to buying it.

Paul Motian is always spot on and seems capable of performing well in almost any setting. I'm not sure what he's done with Peacock, but I'm sure it would be excellent. I can, however, definitely recommend any of the 2-3 records that I've heard by Motian's trio with guitarist Bill Frisell and Joe Lovano.

Another great Motian release is this fabulous item from some of Brooklyn's finest players, with Motian as their guest member. The pianist, Jacob Sacks, is a fabulous improviser:
https://www.loyallabel.com/sacksopsvikmanerimotian/index.html

[Essyne]

I found it interesting that in many practice halls that I've been to at Conservatories/Uni's that jazz is "outlawed." Apparently, the people who funded the wings said that they would build them ONLY if no jazz was ever played in them. Fascinating.

[rc]

Any others I'm missing?

Marc Andre Hamelin

[Petter]

Paul Motian is always spot on and seems capable of performing well in almost any setting. I'm not sure what he's done with Peacock, but I'm sure it would be excellent.

Sorry for being vague, it was a trio record with Marc Copland, Motian and Peacock. I ordered it already 

[thierry13]

My favorite classical pianist is Glenn Gould, my favorite Jazz pianists are Oscar Peterson and Bill Evans, and I think Anton Kuerti has done some amazing things.
Any others I'm missing?

Kuerti isn't exactly from Canada. He moved here. He's from Vienna.

[horizontal]

You are dead wrong, I argue Oscar Peterson...end of discussion

on a separate note: I think there is a such a rich pool of talent that has come from Canada, i.e., Glenn Gould, Oscar Peterson, Bill Evans, Anton Kuerti, Louis Lortie, Jon Kimura Parker, and more.

My favorite classical pianist is Glenn Gould, my favorite Jazz pianists are Oscar Peterson and Bill Evans, and I think Anton Kuerti has done some amazing things.
Any others I'm missing?

Bill Evans is American.

[Petter]

was ,argh sorry I became a nitpickerererer 

[horizontal]

was ,argh sorry I became a nitpickerererer 

I am fairly certain Bill Evans' citizenship was not retroactively revoked after his death.

[Petter]

touche, nice nitpickirish

[ed palamar]

Art Tatum was injured by a group of youngsters - leaving him partially blind.  His "Gang 'o Nothin'" is a tribute to his conspirators.

[webern78]

Art Tatum was injured by a group of youngsters - leaving him partially blind.  His "Gang 'o Nothin'" is a tribute to his conspirators.

He was already partially blind, the assault just made things worst (allegedly, there's no conclusive evidence on the matter).

[oscarr111111]

His eyesight was fixed somewhat by surgery, the beating just undid whatever good the surgery had done.

[indutrial]

Sorry for being vague, it was a trio record with Marc Copland, Motian and Peacock. I ordered it already 

Copland and Peacock played on an excellent record called Paradiso with drummer Billy Hart. That disc features a few standards, including Parker's tune 'Bloomdido', alongside 5-6 awesome Copland originals. If you're a fan of Copland's work, do yourself a huge favor and buy both of the duo discs he recorded with alto saxophonist Greg Osby. The first is called Round and Round and the second is called Night Call. Both are fabulous. Also of note is Copland's solo disc, Poetic Motion, described here:

https://www.musicweb-international.com/jazz/2002/Apr02/copland.htm

He also did a really nice piano duo disc with Bill Carrothers called No Choice, which I believe featured nothing but standards and cover songs. Very nice recording, that one. Here's a link:

https://www.bridgeboymusic.com/nochoice/index.htm

[horizontal]

Inferior/superior exists in music and it has nothing to do with opinion, subjectivity or how many people like it. Nothing comes close to the masters of the so-called "classical" music. Jazz is very far from it too, tough I have to admit it's better than pop.

Do you feel that western classical music is a superior musical tradition with respect to only jazz and pop music, or with respect to ALL musics (for example, the Indian classical tradition, Chinese traditional music, Indonesian gamelan, etc.)?

[webern78]

Do you feel that western classical music is a superior musical tradition with respect to only jazz and pop music, or with respect to ALL musics (for example, the Indian classical tradition, Chinese traditional music, Indonesian gamelan, etc.)?

From my part, i'd argue the latter. Somehow, this belief doesn't drive me to the same type of myopic exclusiveness which characterizes thierry13. Odd, isn't it?

[thierry13]

Do you feel that western classical music is a superior musical tradition with respect to only jazz and pop music, or with respect to ALL musics (for example, the Indian classical tradition, Chinese traditional music, Indonesian gamelan, etc.)?

I have much more respect for indian and chinese music than for Jazz or pop. I personally hate gamelan, but that's my opinion. I do not think any of those foreign traditions did what western masters did with music, tough. They did not bring it as far, tough they might not be all that far.

[piano94566]

Jazz is fun to play.  I sometimes use it as the warm-up exercise.  There are quite some classical-trained pianists (for example, Ashkenazy!) can't improvise.  There are quite some well-known classical pianists, to name a few: Horowitz, Thibaudet, and Previn, and of course, Keith Jarret; are also very much into it.  It can be very challenging, and some of the pieces require high degree of technique to play well.

There's an easy way to start it without much putting much effort into it:  learn the blue scale!  Once you know the C blue scale, you'll know the rest of the scales by transposing it.  Your "jazz" will sound quite good just by weaving the scale into your improvisation, and insert some grace notes and turns.  You should get into to knowing cords immediately after that.  It's important to know the basic chords for the left hand in order to go on.  It's not a difficult task, either.  If you want to be more of a jazz pianist, you'll need to learn the modes, which requires a lot more memorization.

[thierry13]

There are quite some well-known classical pianists, to name a few: Horowitz, Thibaudet, and Previn, and of course, Keith Jarret;

Keith Jarret is NOT a classical pianist ! If you call that a classical pianist, then Tim Hoffman and Maksim are great pianists also 

[ctrastevere]

Keith Jarret is NOT a classical pianist ! If you call that a classical pianist, then Tim Hoffman and Maksim are great pianists also 

While I agree with you that Keith Jarrett isn't a classical pianist, "classical" and "great" are not synonymous. There are plenty of lousy classical pianists out there, as I'm sure you're aware.

[etcetra]

It seems like this thread has gotten out of hand.  How on earth did a thread on jazz became a place for all this argument?  It's like going to a Manchester United Forum and seeing Chelsea fan talking SH*t about Man Utd. and vice versa.. It's also kind of like arguing to a religious fanatic (I am not going to say who in particular.. )  I was hoping to see a good discussion about jazz and music but so much of it is crowded with crap so I gave up on reading the thread after the first 3 pages.

Anyways, I can name tons of classical pianists that were inspired by jazz and vice versa.  It's a known fact that Horowitz had a tremendous respect for Art Tatum, and Glenn Gould like Bill Evan's solo recording enough to actually call him and congragulate him.  Comparing jazz and classical is kind of like comparing Haiku and Milton.. I am sure there are more grand theme and stuff in Paradise Lost, but I don't think Haiku is worse art form just because its simpler.  The aesthetic pleasure you get from Haiku is so different than reading a long novel, and its the same for jazz and classical.

I think its one thing to be really passionate about the music you love, but its something else to make a religion out of it.  I've talk to singer songwriters, funk musicians, tabla players, and DJ's.. etc, and the more i talk to them the more I realize how much goes into their craft.  I may not completely understand what they are doing, but I realize that a lot of these people taking their art very seriously and developing their craft.  I certainly don't have the heart to tell them that their art form is somehow inferior than mine, and I stopped doing that kind of nonsense comparison a long time ago.   

Whether you are preparing for your recital, or laying down tracks on your computer, its a serious and hard work. These people are making honest music and pouring their heart into it, and frankly these musicians are very very good, just not in the way I am used to measure musicians abilities.  I know that they have something special that they can't do, and that diversity is something that I enjoy in life.   

I think jazz is in a really interesting place right now, I mean there are people who really want to stick to tradition, and they don't want that to be gone, but a lot of younger musicians feel like they are so out of touch with the tradition its hard to relate to them.  Most good jazz musicians pay their dues and have their influences, but a lot of them are really motivated by the desire to do their own thing.   I am really excited about young pianists like Aaron Parks and Tigran Hamasyan, or what the Bad Plus is doing. 

It's a really complicated situation.. i've read stuff by George Duke about how a lot of newer jazz musicians don't swing and they are losing touch with the tradition, but some of the new stuff is really interesting too.. i mean you listen to Dave Holland, Brad Mehldau, Jean Michel Pilc, David Kikowski and they are all doing something completely different under the genre "jazz".  At the same time it's also nice to listen to people like the Clayton Brothers who can just make it swing.  I feel like jazz is going on all sort of different direction at the same time, it may seem like chaos in some ways but its the chaos that makes the music exciting.

[thierry13]

While I agree with you that Keith Jarrett isn't a classical pianist, "classical" and "great" are not synonymous. There are plenty of lousy classical pianists out there, as I'm sure you're aware.

Classical and great are synonymous. If you're lousy you can not call yourself a classical pianist. That's the exact reason why Keith Jarrett isn't one. Of course lousy pianists try being classical ones, but they simply do not succeed, except with some sad exceptions.

[mephisto]

Keith Jarret is NOT a classical pianist ! If you call that a classical pianist, then Tim Hoffman and Maksim are great pianists also 

Pianists who play classical music are classical pianists. Keith jarett is both a jazz and a classical pianists.

Great and classical pianists aren't synonymous. I'm a classical pianists, but I am not great.

[ctrastevere]

Classical and great are synonymous. If you're lousy you can not call yourself a classical pianist. That's the exact reason why Keith Jarrett isn't one. Of course lousy pianists try being classical ones, but they simply do not succeed, except with some sad exceptions.

Then do you also argue that there is no such thing as a lousy classical composer?

[thierry13]

Pianists who play classical music are classical pianists. Keith jarett is both a jazz and a classical pianists.

Great and classical pianists aren't synonymous. I'm a classical pianists, but I am not great.

You can be bad at anything. You can be an amateur at anything. That's not the point. I'm talking about a REAL classical pianist, a professional one. Of course anybody can give lousy performances, but they are most likely rarer than good ones.

[Petter]

Classical and great are synonymous. If you're lousy you can not call yourself a classical pianist. That's the exact reason why Keith Jarrett isn't one. Of course lousy pianists try being classical ones, but they simply do not succeed, except with some sad exceptions.

So a lousy pianist who succeed being a classical pianist is a sad exception?  

[thierry13]

Then do you also argue that there is no such thing as a lousy classical composer?

Like I said in my previous post, you can be bad or an amateur at anything. But the league of great classical composers is ahead of anything else.

[thierry13]

So a lousy pianist who succeed being a classical pianist is a sad exception?  

How could it NOT be one. Hell yes it is!

[Petter]

Ok, just checking, by your definitions a classical pianist is a lousy pianist then by default. Good night.

[thierry13]

Ok, just checking, by your definitions a classical pianist is a lousy pianist then by default. Good night.

Okay so what I call a sad exception is a general rule? You're weird. Or are you saying every classical pianist is lousy? 

[oscarr111111]

Anyone else get the impression that he only hates creative and improvisation based genres so much because he hasn't got the talent to play them?  No musician would act as ignorant as that, but a trained monkey can make itself feel better by telling itself that rote-playing is the only thing that matters anyway.

[thierry13]

Anyone else get the impression that he only hates creative and improvisation based genres so much because he hasn't got the talent to play them?  No musician would act as ignorant as that, but a trained monkey can make itself feel better by telling itself that rote-playing is the only thing that matters anyway.

Huh? How could I hate improvisation? I think it's great. How could you know I do not have the talent to do so ? Jazz is not the only genre that enables improvisation, you know... you sound like the ignorant one.

[horizontal]

Improvisation is not the only genre that enables improvisation, you know...

...

[thierry13]

...

Lol sorry, I meant jazz.

[oscarr111111]

Huh? How could I hate improvisation? I think it's great. How could you know I do not have the talent to do so ? Jazz is not the only genre that enables improvisation, you know... you sound like the ignorant one.

Please point out where I said that jazz is the only genre that enables improvisation please.  I specifically said improvisation based genres.

[thierry13]

Please point out where I said that jazz is the only genre that enables improvisation please.  I specifically said improvisation based genres.

Are you playing a game where you're trying to be as stupid as you can? You obviously excluded classical, and that is why I said that jazz isn't the only genre that enables improvisation. I do not see why you can not do classical improvisation 

[frigo]

Are you playing a game where you're trying to be as stupid as you can? You obviously excluded classical, and that is why I said that jazz isn't the only genre that enables improvisation. I do not see why you can not do classical improvisation 

Oscarr111111 never said such thing. His post specifically says "improvisation based genres"...

[Petter]

Okay so what I call a sad exception is a general rule? You're weird. Or are you saying every classical pianist is lousy? 

Why would the exception be sad, wouldnīt it be something good?