How fast 3-year-old baby can learn to play Menuet in G minor by Petzold?

[musicrebel4u]

Thierry wrote
Well you were implying that i and Hellene might be STUPID and /or incompetent musicians. Which is a rather rude comment. You are allowed to think my ideas are stupid, but as to my musical competence, the point is that my videos are there for anyone to judge. If you think this is incompetent, then I would assume you think you could do better. My age has nothing to do with it. I am challenging you to show your own musical competence on YouTube.

John, this video is amazing! I LOVE it!

[musicrebel4u]

Musicalrebel4, are your students limited to what they acquire through the software, or do they at some point also learn formal theory in a non-shallow manner?

Keypeg, I am Master degreed musicologist and music theory and music history is my forte 
I just don't like to 'put the car in front of a horse': personal experience first – explanation of theory second.

Otherwise, students' perception considers it as a SPAM

[musicrebel4u]

We're not saying they shouldn't take lessons, anyone has a right to lessons. But if a kid's not getting it, then they need to let be until they can understand it.

Understand what?
If any kid can read music notation, develop music memory and can comprehend advanced forms of music, they are already ahead of others in understanding music as a language. Drivers know the road better then passengers.

Here the video of the guy, who NEVER took any lessons, but taught himself to play piano and read music. He has no theory knowledge. Does he lack enjoyment of playing music? What would you say about his performance?

[wotgoplunk]

Understand what?
If any kid can read music notation, develop music memory and can comprehend advanced forms of music, they are already ahead of others in understanding music as a language.
Drivers know the road better then passengers.

How can be sure that they comprehend the advanced form of music?

Understand what they're doing. Again, as I've said, kids need to know WHY they're doing whatever it is that they're doing.

And again, not all children can cope reading music. I still had several kids in my music class last semester who could play all the notes, but they didn't know what they were really doing with it. They played sharps/flats in the appropriate places, but couldn't understand the concept of key signatures.

Here the video of the guy, who NEVER took any lessons, but taught himself to play piano and read music. He has no theory knowledge. Does he lack enjoyment of playing music? What would you say about his performance?

The guy in this video clearly has talent then. See the thing is, he's an adult, and that's the difference. You can't compare the minds of children with the minds of adults, adults can be adept at picking up complex things much more easily.

And if he has no theory knowledge, imagine how he could be even better with it! It's a lot easier when sightreading to just think for example, "A Major Chord" as opposed to having to think, "A...C#...E".

[musicrebel4u]

How can be sure that they comprehend the advanced form of music?

Understand what they're doing. Again, as I've said, kids need to know WHY they're doing whatever it is that they're doing.

And again, not all children can cope reading music. I still had several kids in my music class last semester who could play all the notes, but they didn't know what they were really doing with it. They played sharps/flats in the appropriate places, but couldn't understand the concept of key signatures.

The guy in this video clearly has talent then. See the thing is, he's an adult, and that's the difference. You can't compare the minds of children with the minds of adults, adults can be adept at picking up complex things much more easily.

And if he has no theory knowledge, imagine how he could be even better with it! It's a lot easier when sightreading to just think for example, "A Major Chord" as opposed to having to think, "A...C#...E".

You are the thinker (this is why I am replying to you!)
Your students are coping with way too many obstacles of learning music as a language.

They are unable to read original music notation FLUENTLY due to the physiological limitations of their eye focus. When they are trying to read, they are doing it too slow and depend on your help too much. This is why they can't comprehend music and can't apply the music pieces to their collected in cerebral cortex information as to point of support.

Do you remember how did you try to drive a car for the first time? I bet your brain was to occupy with coordination problems to be able to enjoy the view outside the car window?

In music making students have 2 problems at the same time: coordination and reading. If to eliminate visual challenges and provide the balance between visual and coordination problems, you can reach completely different results.

I can't argue with you that the guy is a genius (as all members of our team), but what would you say about these 2 girls?

Coordination + reading = the answer of understanding music as a language. In case you didn't watch here the video of explanation, why students have problems in fluent reading:

I understand that it could be way out of your current experience, but you are a thinker and I have faith in your cognitive abilities.   

 

[wotgoplunk]

First of all, I would just like to let you know I like the idea of your program, the only thing I have a real problem with is the knowledge that students miss out on being taught this way.

They are unable to read original music notation FLUENTLY due to the physiological limitations of their eye focus. When they are trying to read, they are doing it too slow and depend on your help too much. This is why they can't comprehend music and can't apply the music pieces to their collected in cerebral cortex information as to point of support.

But eventually when reading scores, with appropriate theory background, students just don't read every note. It becomes possible to see things as patterns, like scales and chords. And that's another reason why we should ideally wait until the student is old enough to understand these concepts, as it will aid in their understanding.

Students need to be old enough, or talented enough to both have finger coordination and reading. A child needs to be able to do these easily before he/she can truly learn piano easily.

And anything that's a struggle will only put the child off.

Do you remember how did you try to drive a car for the first time? I bet your brain was to occupy with coordination problems to be able to enjoy the view outside the car window?

I'm still too young to drive 

But I see your point, the thing is, at 16 or whatever the driving age is where you live, the mind is old enough to begin to comprehend what's going on, and eventually it just becomes second nature. It's much more difficult for a young child to do that.

[musicrebel4u]

First of all, I would just like to let you know I like the idea of your program, the only thing I have a real problem with is the knowledge that students miss out on being taught this way.

But eventually when reading scores, with appropriate theory background, students just don't read every note. It becomes possible to see things as patterns, like scales and chords. And that's another reason why we should ideally wait until the student is old enough to understand these concepts, as it will aid in their understanding.

Students need to be old enough, or talented enough to both have finger coordination and reading. A child needs to be able to do these easily before he/she can truly learn piano easily.

And anything that's a struggle will only put the child off.

I'm still too young to drive 

But I see your point, the thing is, at 16 or whatever the driving age is where you live, the mind is old enough to begin to comprehend what's going on, and eventually it just becomes second nature. It's much more difficult for a young child to do that.

Exactly!
I just would disagree with age limitation.
Some students are ready for theory earlier then other.
The point is: let them all read, play and enjoy music. Some would like to know more, some would be happy with what they have, but music as a language has to belong to all.

[wotgoplunk]

Exactly!
I just would disagree with age limitation.
Some students are ready for theory earlier then other.
The point is: let them all read, play and enjoy music. Some would like to know more, some would be happy with what they have, but music as a language has to belong to all.

So how do you know when a student is ready?

They have to learn it at some point.

Having had music last semester, it's painfully evident how little theory people know. When you have to watch the guy beside you count up from middle C to find his note, at age 14, something has to be done about it.

Kida can't go on without theory forever.

[jabbz]

Is it not a good idea to try and teach theory, reading, ear and technique all at the same time?

I'd rather let a child be old enough to want to properly study music, before throwing them into a program though.

[Petter]

Boys and girls are the same in learning, if to do it wisely.

This is interesting. What are your thoughts and experience about gender when it comes to teaching? Is there any difference and if so, is it biological or sociological related or both etc. I know this is slightly off topic but I´ve been thinking about this alot recently.
 And I really admire (and envy  ) your spirit.

[musicrebel4u]

So how do you know when a student is ready?

They have to learn it at some point.

I know, when they are ready when they start to ask questions. Then I tell them and I am absolutely sure that my information doesn't fall into the dead ears.

Having had music last semester, it's painfully evident how little theory people know. When you have to watch the guy beside you count up from middle C to find his note, at age 14, something has to be done about it.

Oh, THIS kind of theory we teach from 2-year-old.
Please, download the demos:
-https://www.doremifasoft.com/notealphabet.html
-https://www.doremifasoft.com/fruitlines.html
-https://www.doremifasoft.com/trstpu.html

Kida can't go on without theory forever.

Agree! But practice is first, theory – the second.

[musicrebel4u]

Is it not a good idea to try and teach theory, reading, ear and technique all at the same time?

I'd rather let a child be old enough to want to properly study music, before throwing them into a program though.

Oh, I would agree with you, if I won't have more then enough experience with older students having the same problems as younger one.

The truth about our brain is: it has limitations of our comprehension. I read yesterday on Yahoo that even talking on hand-free phone puts drivers into a danger.

[musicrebel4u]

This is interesting. What are your thoughts and experience about gender when it comes to teaching? Is there any difference and if so, is it biological or sociological related or both etc. I know this is slightly off topic but I´ve been thinking about this alot recently.
 And I really admire (and envy  ) your spirit.

You see, Peter, It is pretty hard for me to explain this (because I work for 7 years with computerized system of teaching and it is quite different experience with traditional lessons), but when kids CAN do something they love to do it and progress quickly. Gender really has nothing to do with their cognitive abilities. 

[johnk]

Hellene, It occurred to me that you should make some videos of kids misbehaving or not cooporating at first. Like Dora's boy. It would give your method more credibility. When we see so much amazing success only, it seems so different to our own experience of kids at 3 years of age, that we think your kids must be exceptional.

I liked your game for the triad where you call successive white keys "boys and girls". The girls have a bithday party and say "ha ha we dont invite the boys". This is, in a way, an example of how we encourage a sort of "bad" behaviour to get what we want from the kid. Kids like being naughty! Sometimes they enjoy saying or doing the opposite of what the teacher or parent wants. I dont know why, but it does seem to be attractive to kids to be like "ha ha we dont invite the boys". I suspect it is a very primal urge connected with the humans' sense of humour. We enjoy others misfortune!

It wouldnt work as well if you said to the kid: "This is not fair. Lets invite the boys too!" ... Or would it??

[wotgoplunk]

It wouldnt work as well if you said to the kid: "This is not fair. Lets invite the boys too!" ... Or would it??

Be great for teaching them cluster chords

(Or well, sort of.)

[musicrebel4u]

Hellene, It occurred to me that you should make some videos of kids misbehaving or not cooporating at first. Like Dora's boy. It would give your method more credibility. When we see so much amazing success only, it seems so different to our own experience of kids at 3 years of age, that we think your kids must be exceptional.

You got the right point!
But currently we have to face so much criticism and even anger from music educators, who is intimidated with our system that we try to show the best videos in order to convince them that we are not gimmicks.

But people (like you) who grasp the concept want to know and to see more. Then I invite them to Houston or work with them over the phone or/and Internet and they see the 'kitchen' by themselves (with their own students) or at my lessons. Also on youtube we put so many different students – many of viewers figure it out that All the kids there could not be exceptional. They call me and tell me that the quantity convince them that system works for majority of people.

I liked your game for the triad where you call successive white keys "boys and girls". The girls have a bithday party and say "ha ha we dont invite the boys". This is, in a way, an example of how we encourage a sort of "bad" behaviour to get what we want from the kid. Kids like being naughty! Sometimes they enjoy saying or doing the opposite of what the teacher or parent wants. I dont know why, but it does seem to be attractive to kids to be like "ha ha we dont invite the boys". I suspect it is a very primal urge connected with the humans' sense of humour. We enjoy others misfortune!

It wouldnt work as well if you said to the kid: "This is not fair. Lets invite the boys too!" ... Or would it??

Ha! This is the whole point!  First they learn triads with only right and only left hand. But after that they have to play with both hands meaning the 'boys' and 'girls' together through all the octaves.

When I was teaching children in daycare centers and schools 'space' or 'line' notes was too abstract concept to them. So, I had decided: what's the hack! Let them be 'boys' (space) and 'girls' (line). It worked better and I decided to stick with this concept.

[pianochick93]

Agree! But practice is first, theory – the second.

I believe they should go hand in hand. You learn a piece, you also learn the theory that is relevant to it. I.E variations of scales of the key signature(s) of the piece. (Arpeggios, contrary motion, staccato, etc.). You learn the different dynamic and whatever-they-are-called markings, likes legato, tenuto, all those french and german terms that most of the time need a music dictionary to find out. You learn the background of the piece, a little about the structural form of the piece. and so in learning this piece, you havn't just learnt the music, you have also learnt theory, and some other random useful things.
This may not work all the time though, you may have a student, who cannot for the life of him/her remember all of the difficult foreign names and things that they need to. In that case, you would maybe use a storyline for the piece (you should do this anyway, but in this case it could come in useful), and say, 'see this bit here, with the Sfz. THis is where someone is yelling, like in an army, very pronounced and sharp and accentuated (I dunno if that was the right word). Now here, where it says cantabile, someone in the crowd of people being yelled at has started to sing with a vioce very sweet, even the guy yelling has to shut up. As soon as this guy starts singing, the rest join in, because it makes the song sound nicer.'

Analogies are wonderful things...

[musicrebel4u]

Analogies are wonderful things...

Of cause!
A student is not a vessel, which we have to fill with attainments, but a torch that we have to light.

[keypeg]

Of cause!
A student is not a vessel, which we have to fill with attainments, but a torch that we have to light.

And here you have summarized two opposing philosophies.  I know which I prefer.  How about another variation of the second: A seed to water?

[musicrebel4u]

And here you have summarized two opposing philosophies.  I know which I prefer.  How about another variation of the second: A seed to water?

Unfortunately, I don't know anything about seeds 
Do they always grow better in water 
Well, killsed a lot of plants and flowers... I think this is my weakest point as for human being.