"Musical Language" -- New York Public Broadcast

[m19834]

I have found this broadcast to be immensely interesting !  I have posted the description of this broadcast here :

"Musical Language (Radio Lab)

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 What is music? How does it work? Why does it move us? Why are some people better at it than others? In this hour, we examine the line between language and music, how the brain processes sound, and we meet a composer who uses computers to capture the musical DNA of dead composers in order to create new work. We also re-imagine the disastrous 1913 debut of Stravinsky’s Rite of Spring…through the lens of modern neurology."

And the link (the actual program starts at about 50 seconds in):

Musical Language

If you are interested in ear training, perfect pitch, languages and their relation to music, I don't think you will regret listening to this entire broadcast, and perhaps there would be some nice discussion as a result.

Enjoy !

[m19834]

One of the first guest-speakers on this broadcast is a psychologist who studies how we perceive sound.  She gives an example of a time when she had recorded herself speaking and was listening back on that recording, having placed one segment of it on "loop" -- as she had gone into the other room and had forgotten that she left this loop running, she sipped her tea as she became aware of "singing" from within her house.  She then realized that the singing was in fact the looped segment of her speaking the words "sometimes behave so strangely," which had, in her perception, morphed into song rather than speech.  If you listen, you will hear this, too.

What I find interesting is that people are a bit amazed by this seeming outburst of song within what we have determined to be speech, and it appears to raise the question for the group : "What is music ?"  I think this takes a lot for granted, actually, and I think the real question rather is, firstly, what is speech ? 

John Laver, in an introduction to his book "Principles of Phonetics" writes about language :

"Underlying the apparent diversity shown by the thousands of mutually incomprehensible languages of the world, there is a remarkable, elegant and principled unity in the way that these languages exploit the phonetic resources of speech."

This points to some unity existing between all languages in the entire world, and to take that a little further, I would say that I think now there is not a variety of different languages, but one, universal language that exists between all of us.  The principles that underlay our communication are drawn on by all of our species.  What I find remarkable is that these principles share the same qualities as what we call music.

Poetry, for example, is poetic because of it's rhythm, because of it's meter, because of how the words are organized and fit together -- however, it is still just a particular use of an already established language.  These things are similar to groupings of notes and their organizations around pulse and pitch.  Certain languages, such as Mandrin, have particular tones which express particular meanings, where the seemingly same word can have several different meanings depending on the tonal placement of the spoken word.

To me, this all points to music.  To me it becomes obvious that our universal language is musical, and though it seems to our limited perception that we have various languages that are indecipherable to others, it is not actually a separate entity, but rather a different use of the same principles.

I think of all languages as being together as one, like a digital piano that has a kind of infinite tone bank.   

Why do we sometimes perceive speech as being musical ?  Well, because it is and, I think that's all it is.  And, in a sense, I think this is all we have together.

So now, I do ask what is music ?  Well, I ask this with the seeming-perception that it is all-encompassing.  There is not really some sounds that are musical and some that are not.  In my current state of being, there is not really any being, any existence, any interaction that does not point to music.  It is all interchangeable, and it is one in the same.

Several nights ago, I had a dream in music.  Everybody in this dream communicated through song and everybody sang a Santcus.  Everything around me was music.  It seems that I am not dreaming any longer, but my perception of the world around me is beginning to resemble this dream.  Evidence seems to suggest that this is reality.

[hyrst]

Some very interesting thoughts, Karli.  You have obviously done a lot of thinking on this topic. 

I have only just started listening to the recording.  I hope to finish it off in the next few days, but I want to give it proper attention and thought.

[seicinta]

.

[m19834]

Ah, so you have listened to the broadcast then ? 

[keypeg]

Karli, I'm a linguist.  I've developed an approach to the oral aspect of language learning which mostly I've used to learn my sixth language (work on progress) but I've also had the opportunity to apply it just a little bit to a private student who above all wants to become adept at oral communication and is also working on a fifth language.  I find myself transfering things from my music studies into my language work and vice versa.

Spoken language has a rhythm and cadences.  If you listen to babies babbling you might notice that babies of different nationalities babble differently.  That is to say, the rhythm that emerges from the "Mama" is the rhythm of the mother tongue.  There happened to be a baby living next door that was babbling in the language I was learning.  I could take the rhythm of his babble, say "Mama" or "Mamamama" in his babble, and then superimpose a sentence in that language into the rhythm of the babble, and the words would flow easily.  It's a bit like joining a group in mid-music, picking up the rhythms, and being able to join right in. 

It is a matter of rhythm and also pitch variation.  The third element is another dynamic: do you break between words and vowels as staccato, or do you slur in an ultra legato phrasing?  I have a strongly responsive ear in both music and language, and maybe it is even imitative.  I once asked a question in French in a Montreal subway at the ticket booth, then turned to speak to my English speaking companion but was still in the ultra-legato mode of French which gave a touch of Frenchness to my English.

Similarly a friend who had learned Parisian French could not make head or tail out of lectures in colloquial French.  I gave her a recording of a singer who sang colloquially, the lyrics, and suggested she pay attention to the rhythms of the language.  Then at the next lecture she was to not try to catch the word, but to allow the rhythm of the language to wash over her like music, and allow the words to enter.  I had just finished doing the same for the language that I am learning.  She reported back that for the first minute she did not understand anything, and all of a sudden she was "in tune" and the whole lecture became crystal clear.  It is not important to understand every word in any case, because many words we use are "fillers" that don't impart meaning.

When I am teaching pronunciation one on one, we may cut right down to rhythm/pitch only for a difficult phrase, sort of humming the phrase, and then filling in the words to the same rhythm.  It seems to work.

Music, on the other hand, is phrases, paragraphs, sentences and linguistic analogies seem to apply.

It also seems that some rhythmic elements transcend humanity - what do you think?  A canary asking for food chirps in a manner that rises in pitch like a question, and so does a whining puppy, or a cat asking for food saying "mr-r-row?"  It seems to be the same cadence for all three.  Is this possible or is it too much of an extrapolation?

[seicinta]

.

[m19834]

So, a kind of "standoff" in the form of imitation is supposed to bring about a common ground ?  How conducive to friendship !

I have only joined the forum about a month ago  , and have not yet had the chance to read everything ... I hope you understand  :-.  Though I believe I did actually read your thread, it just never crossed my mind to go back there and post this broadcast there -- thanks for the link, I shall remedy the problem right away  !

[pianowolfi]

Ohhhhhhhhh
I'm so interested in these
but I have only a question who really make me think.I remember that my first post in PS was on November 2007 asking about what people think about if music it's a lenguage or an idiom, and then I was a bit desapointed because only answer in my post few persons,and finally I was  take my own way thinking about these, and now just when I have a project to make a seminary teaching with all the thoughts and experiences that I have it results that you appear like a interested person in the post that I was make five months ago.
I'm so sure that people sometimes arrives at the same point in their thoughts about teaching and about music means.
I'm just reading your post and I'm thinking ohhhhhhhhh the fate it's really surprising. But you know, I really schou ld want  that your post was on november, then I'm so sure that it schould be help me so much, now I only read thinks that I was thought absolutly alone .

Ah, so you have listened to the broadcast then ? 

So, a kind of "standoff" in the form of imitation is supposed to bring about a common ground ?  How conducive to friendship !

I have only joined the forum about a month ago  , and have not yet had the chance to read everything ... I hope you understand  .  Though I believe I did actually read your thread, it just never crossed my mind to go back there and post this broadcast there -- thanks for the link, I shall remedy the problem right away  !

Because of very personal and private reasons I need to state here officially that I have never talked with anybody on the forum about any subjects of "seicinta" s seminar that she mentions above in response to "Karli"'s post.

[m19834]

Because of very personal and private reasons I need to state here officially that I have never talked with anybody on the forum about any subjects of "seicinta" s seminar that she mentions above in response to "Karli"'s post.

er ... 

If this reason is so personal and private for you, perhaps it would have been best to take your liberties in private since only the private parties involved would have any clue what you are talking about, and I have my suspicions it is not altogether clear anyway !  You have essentially just publicly involved yourself in something that you have never been evidently linked to in the first place, giving the opposite impression in meaning to that of the cryptic words you have chosen -- congratulations ? .  Interesting decision !

In other news, keypeg, I thank you very much for your response and I am in the process of pondering your post !

[pianowolfi]

er ... 

If this reason is so personal and private for you, perhaps it would have been best to take your liberties in private since only the private parties involved would have any clue what you are talking about, and I have my suspicions it is not altogether clear anyway !  You have essentially just publicly involved yourself in something that you have never been evidently linked to in the first place, giving the opposite impression in meaning to that of the cryptic words you have chosen -- congratulations ? .  Interesting decision !

Yes I know. I know really. 

[m19834]

It also seems that some rhythmic elements transcend humanity - what do you think?  A canary asking for food chirps in a manner that rises in pitch like a question, and so does a whining puppy, or a cat asking for food saying "mr-r-row?"  It seems to be the same cadence for all three.  Is this possible or is it too much of an extrapolation?

I don't think this is too much at all.  Much of what you have talked about within your post, with the exception of animals, was touched upon in the broadcast that I have linked us to in the initial post of this thread.

I have always sensed that animals have a language, though some people have laughed at me while others have probably already scientifically stated it.  I do find it very interesting what you mention about the inflections with which animals may communicate their meanings, and how these relate between species and have relations to human-human communications.

It is tempting to think of this as being extremely complex and overwhelming, when really I think it's not as it seems.  I think that if we were to listen carefully to sounds of the universe, we would basically find patterns that seem to cross boarders between many, many things. 

I even have to wonder if there are sounds within other aspects of nature, that actually reflect some form of organization that could actually indicate communication ?  For example, is there such a thing as ocean song ?  Are there inflections within the wave-sets or patterns that can be discerned and which can be separated out from other patterns that other wave-sets would create ?  For me, this topic begins to touch the fascinations of my life.

I suppose these are not new questions.  I suspect all of this relates back to ancient Greek-thought on how music holds the universe together, or at least how the universe is held by principles that are found within music, math, art and so on.

I would like to better learn what is called German  .

[m19834]

I forgot to post about an interesting experience I had a number of years ago, which I think is related to this thread.  At the time my roommate was an exchange student from Japan and she had a friend of hers visiting for a few days.  During this time, the friend and I seemed to get along very well and there was something about our interaction that went quite beyond our language barriers.  He did not speak English and I did not speak Japanese (though, okay, we both spoke a bit of Spanish but that doesn't count at the moment !), but we became involved in a conversation where my roommate acted as our translator. 

He and I went back in forth in a discussion that was quite pertinent to his life at the time, and related to topics in life that I have a great interest in.  I recall feeling myself becoming so full of the desire to understand him and I had a sense of compassion for him, and at one point, after at least an hour of us talking back and forth with my roommate translating, I suddenly just understood what he was saying without a need for translation.  This experience was a bit beyond any other experience that had ever fringed on this kind of greater-than-language communication before or after.

I think this is related to the subjects in this thread and though I don't think that this communication was/is ultimately limited to tonal and rhythmic inflections that could have communicated the message beyond the particular language being used, I think it is related.

[keypeg]

All I can say is "wow" to the last one. 

[m19834]

Well, I think there is something profound about it, but there is something entirely natural about it, too !  I think this can actually happen way more often than it seems to -- as a matter of fact, I almost feel as though there is no reason why we shouldn't all be able to just understand each other regardless of the language that we speak (though I am not sure why I would think that way) !

[longpiaopiao]

Some very interesting thoughts，i think.