Can Perfect Pitch Be Taught?

[jlh]

jlh, how did you learn pp if that piano was out of tune?

Well I don't know how much was learned and how much was there to begin with.  For me with that piano, I just got used to those piano keys playing with a different pitch.  As soon as my mom realized it was a problem we got a different piano (I only played on that one for less than a year, and during that time I played on other pianos in tune as well as my teacher's piano, so I knew what those notes should sound like).  As has been pointed out before, pp is not note dependent, and the association of pitch with notes is a learned association.

[nia_kurniati]

I have a piano teacher, she's around 75. And She loves piano so much and a great player. She has a little sister about 15 years younger. So when my teacher played piano years ago (she played hours per day), her sister was still inside their mother (I am not native, sorry .. but you know what I mean right). And you know what her little sister has an absolute hearing. My teacher doesnt have it though. When this little sister grown up, she learned piano but she hates reading notes. So she asked my teacher to play and she can play it without a book. And not just a simple song.
So maybe its true about ear learning best early early .. 
I way way tooooo late

[justin_rey]

haha that would be hilarious... but yes there are negative aspects.  Something I deal with on a regular basis (since I'm a staff singer at a church) is sight-reading a bass part when the song is transposed or when the wrong pitch is blown on a pitchpipe.  The latter I actually called the director on, because nobody noticed the wrong pitch had been given, even after singing it through once (song in E, pitch given in Eb), but I'm like "is this the key we're performing it in?", and the director said "yes, in E", and almost laughing, I told him he blew an Eb.  He repitched in E and we continued.

Transposing a bass part doesn't seem like a big deal, but when you're sightreading something, if you have perfect pitch, you're singing what you know those pitches to be, rather than JUST singing the intervals, as we're all taught to do.  Imagine sightreading something on an alto clef if you are not familiar with that clef and it's about the same.  If you know the song it's usually not a big deal, though.  I performed the Bach Passion of St. John last week and in preparation for that I was listening to one performance that was done in a Baroque tuning which was about a half-step flat from A440.  Reading along in one key and listening to it in another is a bit annoying! 

Listening to choirs or groups singing can be tough unless they have a good sense of pitch and a great deal of control (style aside).  Sometimes I find myself singing sharp, but then realizing everyone around me is singing flat, then in order to blend I have to also sing flat.  Out-of-tune guitars bug me, pianos needing a tuning usually make me look for a new practice room (the one I played on yesterday had an A at about A430...).

My parents' first piano was very old -- like 105 years old.  Too old to be tuned properly.  It was tuned to itself about a half step flat.  This posed problems for me when I started piano lessons...  I had gotten used to playing my pieces on that piano and when I'd go to play on the teacher's piano I could not ever play very well because I thought I was hitting all wrong notes!!!

Having people looking over your shoulder in a theory dictation exam because they know you always write the right notes down when the professor plays them gets old too. lol

this is interesting! i also have pp and what happened to me was,  had to write down the songs in musical notations coz the piano i was about to use was way way off standard.  i was playing the piano part for a musical and we had to perform in a very old school. my problem was with providing some light music before the show begins. i don't have the sheet music for these coz i have already 'prepared' them in my mind. fortunately, i brought music sheets. it would be impossible for me to play anything right when the pitch in my mind is the perfect pitch and what i would be hearing when i play is like in another key. as for the musical proper, i couldn't take my eyes off the notes coz i had to make sure i play it as i read.
  so, pp can be taught? i don't think so. this is a natural gift. the flats and the sharps are so distinct to me, even the exact notes of a chord played in any instruments sings out to me clearly. i am teaching piano, and do vocal arrangements for the choir, but i cannot somehow think of a way to teach somebody to acquire the perfect pitch.

[faulty_damper]

I do not have "perfect pitch" as some would call it.

But I have recently noticed that I am now able to tell whether or not a chord is the same chord in a piece that I am playing.  For example, I would not mistake a D minor chord for any other chord.  I can also tell if an A is sharp or flat so I can tune my flute without a reference pitch.  I can also tell if a piece is being performed in the original key or not.

Am I developing "perfect pitch?"

I would not have been able to do any of this 6 months ago even though I've been playing the piano for several years.  It was only about 6 months ago when I started paying attention to pitch that I noticed this change in perception.  I think the reason for this ability came about because I payed attention to how notes sounded and tried to memorize the sounds.

For those who argue (without verifiable evidence) that perfect pitch cannot be learned.  Some have also claimed (without verifiable evidence) that these are not possible because you either have it or not.  How do you explain the development of these skills?  How do you explain how some people who do not have "perfect pitch" develop perfect pitch?

[thierry13]

I do not have "perfect pitch" as some would call it.

But I have recently noticed that I am now able to tell whether or not a chord is the same chord in a piece that I am playing.  For example, I would not mistake a D minor chord for any other chord.  I can also tell if an A is sharp or flat so I can tune my flute without a reference pitch.  I can also tell if a piece is being performed in the original key or not.

Am I developing "perfect pitch?"

I would not have been able to do any of this 6 months ago even though I've been playing the piano for several years.  It was only about 6 months ago when I started paying attention to pitch that I noticed this change in perception.  I think the reason for this ability came about because I payed attention to how notes sounded and tried to memorize the sounds.

For those who argue (without verifiable evidence) that perfect pitch cannot be learned.  Some have also claimed (without verifiable evidence) that these are not possible because you either have it or not.  How do you explain the development of these skills?  How do you explain how some people who do not have "perfect pitch" develop perfect pitch?

What you describe I can do without problem and I am far, very far from perfect pitch. You can not learn it and what you are describing are not symptoms of perfect pitch. If you had perfect pitch, once you would have begun music you would instantly have known the notes, and it would not have been developed trough months.

[faulty_damper]

Identifying pitch and knowing whether it is or is not something is a skill.  Perfect pitch is ability to identify all pitches.

I may not be able to identify all pitches but I am able to tell the difference between certain pitches and can tell you what it isn't and am sometimes able to tell you what it is.

It seems that it is an issue of memory, not an innate, all-or-nothing, skill.  It's like going to a party and being introduced to a dozen different people.  You may not remember everyone's name and it isn't necessary to do so to carry on a conversation with them.  Just like it isn't necessary to know what the names of the pitches are to play the piano.

[oscarr111111]

Theres so much classical mythology surrounding this issue, the simplest answer I think would be: "It probably is possible to learn it but there are plenty of other aspects of playing and musicality that are much more important, spend your valuable time working on those instead".

[keypeg]

Lots of speculation about what "might" be possible and might exist.  In this household one of us has inborn perfect pitch, the other one was taught systematicaly by someone who knew how.  I'm at the stage that the inborn person was before taking music - recognition without a name.  If I hear a sound I can go to the piano or other instrument and know where to find it and then go see what it is that I played for the name.  Apparently that is normal.  The inborn person has always heard pitch distinctively and can distinguish it to the cent.

I play instruments where I must produce the pitch.  I don't see the point of it on the piano.  It is painful to hear the compromised tuning of pianos - they always sound out of tune on certain notes in certain keys and chords.

Relative pitch on piano makes a lot of sense.  But where does perfect pitch come in, since you can't control the pitch anyway ?

Does the theme of perfect pitch occur in any literature or pedagogy other than that of Chang?

[Petter]

Can perfect pitch be bought?

[slobone]

According to this guy it can be taught

But I can tell already his "method" would drive me nuts...

[storyseller]

I think that memory is a really big factor.

I dont have PP when I hear noises or when I listen to someone singing but I have PP when I hear piano and symphonic orchestras.... for many years I thought I didnt have it, but after too many years/hours of practicing I do have something like PP - I can even hear 2 or 3 different notes played together even if they are not a "normal" chord.

So do you consider this PP? is there anyone else out there with the same kind of hearing?

[theodore]

In the real world there is the common sense approach of adjusting to unexpected  conditions.  In Germany I heard an outdoor concert  where one of the pieces was the Marcello D minor oboe concerto accompanied by strings and harpsichord.

During the second movement all of the strings noticed that the oboe was slowly getting sharper and sharper due to the outside humidity and the tension and drama which the oboist expressed. All of the strings naturally adjusted to the oboe. The harpsichord player began to play very very softly and seemed undecided whether to continue.

Beginning with the third movement the pitch had raised itself almost a half step. The harpsichord player had enough sense to stop playing. The oboist displayed dazzling dexterity and ended the concerto in a blaze of virtuostic bravura .  The audience was completely exhilarated and the oboist  was rewarded with a standing ovation. 

Theodore

[thierry13]

So do you consider this PP? is there anyone else out there with the same kind of hearing?

No, I do not consider it perfect pitch. Yes, there are tons of people who have the same kind of hearing, and THAT anybody can develop with enough practicing.

[chozartmaninoff]

Perfect pitch is a gift that some people are born with its the ability to hear and distinguish any notes. Relative pitch is somthing which i have and that can be leant and thats the ability to "work out" what the notes are - Maybe linking a note with a song - so to remember the C note off by heart just remember the Bach prelude in C opening note!!! etc

Mike

[keypeg]

Relative pitch can be recognized at one shot, rather than "worked out", through ear training.  When you hum a melody you are engaging relative pitch but without necessarily knowing how to name the intervals.  Perfect pitch, or pitch recognition, can also be learned but is more difficult imho.

KP

[thierry13]

Perfect pitch, or pitch recognition, can also be learned but is more difficult imho.

Note recognition is NOT perfect pitch. I know tons of people who do not have perfect pitch who can have 100% on a blind test at the piano.

[keypeg]

Let's define terms:
Perfect pitch is the ability to recognize and/or produce a specific pitch.  It deals with pitch - the vibrations that lets us hear how high or low a note is.  My son has it naturally to the cent.  I have been taught.

Being able to recognize a note on a piano would be one way of testing perfect pitch.  Producing a pitch would be another.

Since we have to indicate what we are hearing, giving that pitch a note name such as A or la certainly helps indicate to others that we can recognized that pitch.  It's not "note recognition", it's "pitch recognition" which is named as a note.

I know tons of people who do not have perfect pitch who can have 100% on a blind test at the piano.

That sentence makes no sense to me.  Since perfect pitch is the ability to identify pitch or produce it or both, if these people can recognize pitch played on a piano, then they have perfect pitch.

How do you define perfect pitch?  Or do you mean that they don't have inborn perfect pitch, but acquired perfect pitch?

In any case, perfect pitch is a pain to have for piano because of the equal temperament.  You would rather want to tune down your ability to recognize pitch.  Relative pitch is much more useful for the piano.

[thierry13]

Let's define terms:
Perfect pitch is the ability to recognize and/or produce a specific pitch.  It deals with pitch - the vibrations that lets us hear how high or low a note is.  My son has it naturally to the cent.  I have been taught.

Being able to recognize a note on a piano would be one way of testing perfect pitch.  Producing a pitch would be another.

Since we have to indicate what we are hearing, giving that pitch a note name such as A or la certainly helps indicate to others that we can recognized that pitch.  It's not "note recognition", it's "pitch recognition" which is named as a note.
That sentence makes no sense to me.  Since perfect pitch is the ability to identify pitch or produce it or both, if these people can recognize pitch played on a piano, then they have perfect pitch.

How do you define perfect pitch?  Or do you mean that they don't have inborn perfect pitch, but acquired perfect pitch?

In any case, perfect pitch is a pain to have for piano because of the equal temperament.  You would rather want to tune down your ability to recognize pitch.  Relative pitch is much more useful for the piano.

You're the one that doesn't make sense since my sentence is a fact. Perfect pitch goes beyond that. First of all, not everybody who has the ability to recognize any note on a blind test at the piano, can actually PRODUCE any single one of these notes. Also, I don't think they would notice if all of a piano's notes was tuned 1 hz higher than usual. Also, some people do recognize notes on the piano, when hearing an orchestra, or when singing, or whatever, but can't recognize other instrument's pitches or could not tell you the note it produced when you by example knock on a wall with your fist. That's a proof of not having perfect pitch. Perfect pitch can recognize any pitch, may it be the frequency of a natural percussive event or that of ANY instrument. It can also produce any note, and would see the difference between 440 and 441 even if he didn't hear the 440 for days.

[keypeg]

Thierry, you brought up the piano, I didn't.

Initially I gave a general definition, differentiating between relative and perfect pitch since the two seemed to be confused in a previous post.  It's a rather accepted classical general idea, that relative pitch deals with the relationship of note with each other, and that such a relationship recognition is not perfect pitch.  On the other hand, perfect pitch deals with pitch recognition (whether nor not it is named).  That was the starting point to make certain that difference was made.

You may have not known that this was the purpose of my post, and when you then wrote that my definition was not true, essentially you seemed to refute my point - i.e. were you saying that relative pitch was perfect pitch after all?  You didn't get what I was trying to address.

The general pitch recognition where a person can tell that it's an A and not a C should probably not be called "perfect" pitch because there is nothing perfect about it - I agree with you and I feel the same way.  But in piano circles especialy it seems that "perfect pitch" is often used to describe that general idea - at least it makes a difference between relative and perfect.

What I was taught was not such a general pitch.  In fact, it's turned into a handicap for piano, which is not my primary instrument, because equal temperament is hard to listen to if you can recognize pitch more closely.

My training is in producing rather than recognizing pitch. But we're in a piano forum, and it's (unfortunately) impossible to create pitch on a piano - it is pre-created.  I suspect we are actually agreeing.

It would have helped for you to define what you meant by perfect pitch.

[samuel13]

David Burge actually says we need to master both perfect and relative pitch and that strong perfect pich without strong relative pitch is bad.

[keypeg]

David Burge actually says we need to master both perfect and relative pitch and that strong perfect pich without strong relative pitch is bad.

  This guy?  https://www.perfectpitch.com/  He's selling a product, I see.

[thierry13]

Thierry, you brought up the piano, I didn't.

Initially I gave a general definition, differentiating between relative and perfect pitch since the two seemed to be confused in a previous post.  It's a rather accepted classical general idea, that relative pitch deals with the relationship of note with each other, and that such a relationship recognition is not perfect pitch.  On the other hand, perfect pitch deals with pitch recognition (whether nor not it is named).  That was the starting point to make certain that difference was made.

You may have not known that this was the purpose of my post, and when you then wrote that my definition was not true, essentially you seemed to refute my point - i.e. were you saying that relative pitch was perfect pitch after all?  You didn't get what I was trying to address.

The general pitch recognition where a person can tell that it's an A and not a C should probably not be called "perfect" pitch because there is nothing perfect about it - I agree with you and I feel the same way.  But in piano circles especialy it seems that "perfect pitch" is often used to describe that general idea - at least it makes a difference between relative and perfect.

What I was taught was not such a general pitch.  In fact, it's turned into a handicap for piano, which is not my primary instrument, because equal temperament is hard to listen to if you can recognize pitch more closely.

My training is in producing rather than recognizing pitch. But we're in a piano forum, and it's (unfortunately) impossible to create pitch on a piano - it is pre-created.  I suspect we are actually agreeing.

It would have helped for you to define what you meant by perfect pitch.

Yes I talked about the piano, and I also mentionned every other instrument, including voice, so you make no point at all. Yes it is "accepted" that perfect pitch can recognise given pitches and that relative pitch can not. That is wrong. Relative pitch CAN recognize notes if he is trained to do so, and if he learns to use his pitch memory a lot more. Perfect pitch IS perfect, that's the difference with relative pitch. Anybody with perfect pitch can train their pitch memory and have bad or good results, perfect pitch is the absolute perfect ear. You can think what you want and think that if you can recognize some notes on a given instrument you have perfect pitch, but it simply isn't.

Or there is something superior than perfect pitch? Because by your definition of perfect pitch, there is obviously some people who have something much better and much more perfect than what you call "perfect pitch". Is there a name for those who really have a perfect ear? I'd rather keep the definition "perfect pitch" to those who actually have it, but if you want to extend the definition to only being able to recognize notes, fine. Have it your way, I simply don't fall for your "generally accepted" definition.

[thierry13]

  This guy?  https://www.perfectpitch.com/  He's selling a product, I see.

That guy is a nobody. He's selling a fairly good product I guess but under the false big name of "perfect pitch".

[samuel13]

That guy is a nobody. He's selling a fairly good product I guess but under the false big name of "perfect pitch".

what is the difference between real perfect pitch and pseudo perfect pitch?
isn't perfect pitch useless like a non definite bonus you can do without and has no purpose?

[keypeg]

Thierry, I've just read back on the thread.  We've gotten off on the wrong foot somewhere.  I was responding to Chozart who said he can do one thing, but is learning the other, and I stated that both can be taught.  Your post came right after mine and I thought you were responding to what I was saying, correcting it.  But what you said didn't make sense to me if it was a response to my saying that both can be taught - there seemed not connection.

But I think in fact you were responding to Chozart and not to me - then your response makes sense.  You were saying that this kind of note recognition is not perfect pitch.  So I withdraw my statement that it doesn't make sense because it does make sense.

For the rest of it, we were getting tangled up because what was being argued about wsan't what we thought.  In any case, I've been responding to your one-liner, in which you mentioned only listening to pianos (because you were responding the Chozart) and it seemed to me that you equated perfect pitch with only involving recognizing notes on the piano and I didn't feel comfortable with that.  In my opinion it is much more refined than that ... which is also what you are saying.

[keypeg]

You can think what you want and think that if you can recognize some notes on a given instrument you have perfect pitch, but it simply isn't.

I have never said such a thing.  I said that I was trained to recognize pitch, and not vaguely, and above all to produce it.  Nowhere did I mention a restriction to a particular instrument, or to only given notes.

What's confusing me at the moment is that you seem to be discussing perfect and relative pitch as people instead of abilities, i.e. relative pitch "can recognize".  We use both abilities in producing notes if we are singing or playing an instrument on which we must create the pitch.  If I sing a scale there is pitch and I wil be aware that this is a G and the pitch of that G which is not an approximate or uncentred G.  When I sing the fourth degree or C that C will be flatter than normal because of the degree it holds in the scale, and this is an adjustment along relative considerations.  Similarly if I play a chord or interval the top note adjusts relatively to the bottom note, and the bottom note is adjusted or produced according to pitch.  There is awareness and use of both.  At least that is how I was taught.  And obviously, to do that, you first have to be able to hear it.

[samuel13]

from Britannica:

Absolute, or perfect, pitch is the ability to identify by ear any note at some standard pitch or to sing a specified note, say G♯, at will. Fully developed absolute pitch is rare. It appears early in childhood and is apparently an acute form of memory of sounds of a particular instrument, such as the home piano.

[keypeg]

.

[healdie]

how necceacery is pp?

i mean how many great composers had it? I mean Wagner did not start to study music untill he was 15 this makes it unlikely according to you that he developed PP, is a good relative pitch sufficiant to survive in the world of music, i also know that Schumann had to compose at a piano which also suggests he did not have the capacity to do it in his head

[keypeg]

You don't need perfect pitch to be able to compose away from the piano.

[thierry13]

how necceacery is pp?

i mean how many great composers had it? I mean Wagner did not start to study music untill he was 15 this makes it unlikely according to you that he developed PP, is a good relative pitch sufficiant to survive in the world of music, i also know that Schumann had to compose at a piano which also suggests he did not have the capacity to do it in his head

It does not take perfect pitch to compose away from the piano, it's actually better if you do NOT have it for this task. This way you work out the whole thing and the relations between every element much more deeply. Also, not that many composers had perfect pitch, and relative pitch is not only "sufficiant" to survive in the world of music, it's absolutely everything that you need.