Loyalty : What does it mean and how is it best used ?

[keypeg]

If the teacher can see the direction better than you, go with that person.  Someone who has set up other people along that path, or at least is giving you many different paths to choose from.

Supposing that you have the goal of playing the piano really well, and you think that you need to do certain things to get there.  Supposing your teacher has the same goal, but has different steps to get you there.  Supposing that the steps you are taking, which is the "direction" you see, will give you short term benefits, but in the long run you are painting yourself into a corner?  Supposing that what your teacher proposes seems nonsense, but eventualy it will get you there, but no corners or paint.  Your teacher will seem to be going a different direction than you, but you won't be able to tell.  The teacher's direction may seem wrong.  You will not know whether the teacher sees the direction better than you.  That's the dilemma.

I joined a choir a couple of years ago and we had a passage that was difficult to sing.  We were descending up and down in seventh leaps starting at a high note, probably crossing those different areas of the voice, and it is hard to sing sevenths accurately.  The choirmaster was an expert vocalist and teacher, and so could be trusted.

He told us to do an exercise for the week, and I think that most of us balked.   When I did that exercise the first day, the results were horrible.  If I did not trust him, I would have not gone on.  My voice sounded harsh and ugly, it was very hard to do, and some of it seemed to be going in the opposite direction of what was wanted in the music.  I kept at it anyway.  On the fourth or fifth day the harshness was gone.  When I sang at tempo, I was really surprised.  I had a lightness, and I could negotiate the alternating descending sevenths with ease and accuracy.  It's as though some "control muscles" had been built up through the exercise.

However, everything that I first experienced told me that the choir master was "wrong" because my voice was harsh and heavy, when I wanted lightness and ease.  What if I had decided not to follow his lead?

[m19834]

However, everything that I first experienced told me that the choir master was "wrong" because my voice was harsh and heavy, when I wanted lightness and ease.  What if I had decided not to follow his lead?

Here is another dilemma : Sometimes teachers (even those whom are often considered completely knowledgeable and trustworthy; they are considered to be experts) are indeed, actually, dead wrong  .  To somebody whom actually needs the direction of a teacher -- meaning s/he cannot see far enough on his/her own to know what path to take nor how to take it -- it can be very difficult to tell the difference between an expert who is wrong, and an expert who is right. 

What do you suppose a person can "hold to" in order to determine the difference ?

[keypeg]

And that, Karli, is the really scary thing.  Might I also venture a thought that has crossed my mind that the sensitive, aware student with the most potential might be scarred by bad teaching the most, because he will absorb the bad teaching as thoroughly as he would the good?

When I joined that particular choir I almost did not get in because I was not about to trust just anyone.  I did not know the background of the choirmaster for whom I was auditioning. I had a natural ability to sing, and acquired problems through an experimenter in the last choir who used us as guinea pigs.  That previous person forced an exercise on us that I learned later can strain the vocal chords or cause choking.  I could no longer sing without choking, and the smallest gesture on his part brought it on.  It had taken me a year to get over it.

So when I auditioned and this guy told me to "yawn while singing" I said that I was uncomfortable about doing that, and he said "In my choir, if I say yawn, my singers yawn." 

I then spent time talking to the opera singer who guided the singers.   She told me the background of the choirmaster and we also discussed the phenomenon of people getting hurt by faulty instruction, especially in the field of singing.  It was based on this that I decided to trust the instructions we were later given.  My first experiences made me lose trust, which is probably not an unhealthy thing to have.

So how does one wend one's way through this minefield?

[m19834]

Well, to some degree teachers are always using their students as guinea pigs, and should always be doing this.  However, the teacher should know enough to know what kinds of results they are getting from their experiments (and be capable of tweaking the experiment if the results the teacher desires are not actually being achieved).  If a teacher has stopped experimenting altogether, or thinks they have nothing more to learn and try as a teacher, the teaching can be dead and even dangerous. 

There are indeed some tools that become helpful and can/may be taught to most students in order to establish a firm musical ground.  However, there will always be variations within this structure, and a good teacher should be able to tell the difference between a merely conscientious student, one whom proceeds with care and caution, vs. a person whom is lazy or obstinate and just doesn't care.  In other words, each person will handle the information differently, and a good teacher will know how to help the student cope with the information in a way that is fit for the student.

Interestingly, as I look back on my own experiences, I can see clearly that I started developing ideas of my own that would lead me into my next experience.  What I craved in one experience but felt like I was not getting, those cravings would seem to push me into a new experience.  Honestly, it's those cravings that pushed me into this very forum and kept me coming back for more.

I can tell the difference between a teacher who is willing to listen to my concerns and appreciates them, vs. one who doesn't want to hear them because s/he fears her/his authority is being questioned.  To me, the point of learning is to figure out one's own path, and there are bound to be questions !

In many ways, it's those questions which have led me.  I can hardly imagine that those musicians whom have become the top artists and whom possess a deep and rich knowledge of their art, I can hardly imagine that these individuals "got there" by simply following directions and never asking a question about anything (even if the question were merely to themselves).

Part of that same curiosity though is a willingness to try new things.  You yourself tried the suggestions you were given and got physical "feedback" from each thing.  A good teacher will accept questions that may arise from a student having followed the directions they have been given.  In the case of your first experiment, you were asked to try something that made you choke.  At this point, you may have asked if this was an expected result to be getting ?  And, if not, what could you be doing differently ?  In the case with your latter experiment, at first you were not receiving physical feedback that you had expected and had you asked about the feedback you were getting, I assume you would have received guidance that would lead you on and into the desired results (which you ended up getting as you persisted). 

This is all part of the package.  A teacher is there as a sounding-board, to some extent.  If they give a direction and expect you to do it, they better be prepared for the feedback they are getting in return -- that's how a teacher improves as a teacher.

Well, I am getting off on a tangent now and perhaps I will return later  .

[keypeg]

Karli, I should clarify the context of the guinea pig idea.  If I am taking lessons, then it is my job to do the homework about my teacher before starting.  There is an agreement that the teacher will be teaching me, imparting technique on me, and I have agreed that I am willing to do this.

When I joined the previous choir, it was for the purpose of singing.  I did not intend to learn technique from the choirmaster.  If I am to get technical training at all, I want it to be one-on-one so that the teacher can be aware of what is happening and adjust accordingly.  I would also like to have the choice in who is teaching me.

The person deciding to give technique was not a trained singer or singing instructor.  He forced ideas on us that he did not understand himself, and I was harmed by what he did.  I felt like we were a bunch of toys that could be played with and experimented on.  Professional singers probably would not have stood for it, but amateurs were fair game.

This happened not once, but twice.  In another choir the choirmaster got sick and asked the accompanist to lead the rehearsals.  She did what she must have been burning to do for years, and started to give singing lessons.  She had the women drop their jaws into their necks so that all around me I see tense, contorted faces and not a few squeezed larynxes.  Then she reminded us constantly of how high and hard to reach some notes were so that notes that were well within my reach began to appear like Mount Everest.  I can reach D above high C and these notes were almost an octave below my range and even I felt myself straining because of the imagery.  When the rehearsal was over, women were having coughing fits and spoke with hoarse voices.  I have left two choirs because of experiments by untrained people on choir members who had not consented to the "training".  I discussed the training with my teacher, who has proper singing training but does not teach it presently, and he agreed that what was happening was harmful and wrong.

If you, as a piano teacher, "experiment" with your students", it is knowledgeable experimentation.  You know roughly what to expect.  You have a thorough knowledge of piano, technique, the workings of the human body with piano, balance on the piano bench etc.  This knowledge guides and limits what you do.  That is a far cry from what I experienced in these places.

[keypeg]

A teacher is there as a sounding-board, to some extent.  If they give a direction and expect you to do it, they better be prepared for the feedback they are getting in return -- that's how a teacher improves as a teacher.

This is good to know, Karli.  Some teachers, however, would not be willing to have that kind of feedback, even if it is purely descriptive and sincerely attempted.  However it only makes sense that it is so.

[m19834]

Well, all I can say is that nothing is cut and dry.  It really doesn't matter, in some respects, what a person's background is as a teacher, if you yourself are being harmed or ignored as a student.  The same is true on the flip side.  If you as a student are making true progress and are not being harmed, it doesn't matter what the background of the teacher is.  I 'get' what you are saying, I just incidentally have too much to say in response to even say anything of true substance at all, at this point.

[Bob]

What do you suppose a person can "hold to" in order to determine the difference ?

Look at the quality of students the teacher produces.  Somewhat regardless of their ideas and methods, if the students are coming away ok, then that's a good sign.  If they appear fine, but the students aren't so great, that's saying something about that teacher.

Assuming there is enough to go on for a teacher. 

But you could also judge a teacher by who they're teaching, whether they take it seriously, etc. too I suppose.

[keypeg]

Karli, I think I understand.  One cannot explore these things in one or two paragraphs.  It is a complex, composite picture.

[m19834]

So how does one wend one's way through this minefield?

Well, I think that the answer is theoretically to become more educated oneself.  However, that doesn't say much for perception and the fact that perception can be can be wrong when uneducated (which is one of the reasons for having a teacher) .

[Essyne]

I think that if you're really in tune with your body/your intellect/your SELF, essentially, you can feel what is correct and what is not. I don't know about you, but before I got a "real" piano teacher, I just KNEW subconsciously that something was wrong in my (then) current situation - the entire reason I joined PS in the first place. I don't think a formal "education" can do this for you, per se. This is something that comes just from self-realization.

[m19834]

I think that if you're really in tune with your body/your intellect/your SELF, essentially, you can feel what is correct and what is not. I don't know about you, but before I got a "real" piano teacher, I just KNEW subconsciously that something was wrong in my (then) current situation - the entire reason I joined PS in the first place. I don't think a formal "education" can do this for you, per se. This is something that comes just from self-realization.

Well, just because I used the word "education" doesn't mean that I was talking about school or anything formal, for that matter.  I actually meant it in the most fundamental way.  In any respect, looking back I can say that I felt a lot of things to have been "wrong" with, well, lots of things that I was doing  .  But, that is hindsight !  And, one teacher will say such and such is wrong, when the other teacher taught it to you as right -- it starts getting pretty confusing when you have had lots of teachers, all with differing opinions and thoughts (and motives  ). 

A person needs to learn what to pay attention to, and some people never do, it seems.

[Essyne]

I'm only on my third voice teacher, but I can relate to what you're saying about the different methods of teaching/fundamental aspects. It's scary to give yourself up to a voice teacher (no other interpretations of that, please, as I am completely serious  ), but when starting with someone new, you must just release all of your inhibitions/preconceived notions that are welled up inside. After an hour, (or a few minutes, as anyone looking for a new teacher knows  ) you know if the teacher's methods are correct or not because you can FEEL it internally. You never know what will happen until you experiment!I guess what I'm getting at is that loyalty to the craft, imho, comes first. Other people will help you perfect the craft or they will hinder you. I loved my previous teachers, and I recognize that they were good for me at THAT chapter of my life. But I also realize that voices change, tastes change, etc. I FELT like I wasn't learning anything; everything was just so repetitive and so redundant. I dreaded lessons, because they were frustrating, and I KNEW that it didn't FEEL right, but my voice teacher supposedly had one of the "best" studios around. Don't get caught in the political/sentimental trap. It only hurts in the end.

*Random thoughts, probably incoherent - for this I apologize - *begins chanting* I will get some sleep tonight, I will get some sleep tonight, I will get some sleep tonight*

[m19834]

(...) but when starting with someone new, you must just release all of your inhibitions/preconceived notions that are welled up inside.

Honestly, as a teacher, this is the last thing I would expect of a student that I actually want to teach my deepest findings to.  I would prefer to have somebody who knew why they were there -- to see what information I have to present to them -- and then take it home and scrutinize it for hours !  Go ahead, weigh it against past experiences, those past experiences provide essential perspective for the individual !  They don't have to just take my word for it -- and I would much prefer that they don't.  They can figure out for themselves what to give up and what not to when they have the proper tools to make that kind of decision with -- that is learning and growing, imo.

[keypeg]

Essyne and Karli, you are both touching on things that I have been working on.  the right balance and attitude are a hard one to acquire.  We begin with a very crude and simple notion: the student who is headstrong and will not do what the teacher says, that the teacher is always right, and if the student does just that, nothing more or less, success is assured.  Then you find out that there are subtleties.  A student cannot be an empty robot.  He cannot create his own ways and inventions.  He must work with and acquire what is presented, and as such must draw on parts of himself - his judgement and not his judgement.  And so it goes back and forth, adjusting with a teacher until you have figured out what the balance and the roles really are.  I wonder if some - both teacher and student - combined or separately, never get it.

[m19834]

Well, a student has to "trust" a teacher enough to at least try the ideas presented (but that certainly doesn't mean the person has to become an empty idiot), give the ideas a chance to grow into something the student can make an honest comparison with, and then make educated decisions based on more knowledge and his/her own process.  There is really no "leap of faith" involved in that and it's not a battle of wills, either -- at least no more than when just signing on with the teacher in the first place. 

If all a student has from a teacher is a bunch of teacher's opinions that don't make true sense -- on a personal level -- with the student (blind belief), how is a student really supposed to ever be dependent on their own judgment once teachie is not around anymore ?  How do they learn how to reason musically and practically ?  Mere opinions and belief (no matter how strong) are not the same thing as practice techniques and musical tools !

Any time I have signed on with a teacher, I have done so with the awareness that I am there to try what they have to offer, and that's what I have done.  Why else would a student be there ?  At some point, perhaps there is a divergence between the student and the teacher *after* they have truly gotten to know what each other is about.  If this divergence is based on educated experience, then a teacher has actually done their job.

[Essyne]

Honestly, as a teacher, this is the last thing I would expect of a student that I actually want to teach my deepest findings to.  I would prefer to have somebody who knew why they were there -- to see what information I have to present to them -- and then take it home and scrutinize it for hours !  Go ahead, weigh it against past experiences, those past experiences provide essential perspective for the individual !  They don't have to just take my word for it -- and I would much prefer that they don't.  They can figure out for themselves what to give up and what not to when they have the proper tools to make that kind of decision with -- that is learning and growing, imo.

I haven't read the most recent posts, but before I do, let me make a clarification, please  . What I meant was that IN THE LESSON, you release all inhibitions and just see what happens, because, as I believe that I've already stated here, you can't argue with results and feelings. I'm not saying NOT to "weight it against past experiences" - by all means, do! It would be very very wrong not to! But, just let all sense of "loyalty" go for a moment - I'm not saying "if it hurts keep doing it because I'm putting all of my loyalties aside" - All I'm saying is be OPEN-MINDED to accept new technique/critique. Don't be loyal to a former voice teacher/methodology - be loyal to the craft (the voice, the whatever!).

[Essyne]

I believe, ladies, that we are in complete agreement.

[keypeg]

These words make sense!  Thank you K and Essyne! 

[m19834]

I believe, ladies, that we are in complete agreement.

You can believe whatever you would like to believe .

Thanks for the clarification.

[Essyne]

 

[joyfulmusic]

I have an eleven year old student who is doing very well.  i have already informed her parents to get ready for her to need a different teacher when she's fifteen.  They are very attached to me personally and I will remind them of this from time to time.  In general, I don't want to see an advanced student only study with one teacher.  That is limiting the student's exposure to a whole world of difference in approach.  Personality plays into this so much really in the end.  If the family enjoys you and the student enjoys you and they are progressing, it is rare to have anyone want to change that.

[jxb10]

I think perhaps it's not loyalty that motivates people but perhaps they don't know there needs to be a change. A lot of students probably don't realize that there are different methods or a teacher out there with a different style they might like better. Students are probably loyal to their instructors because they may give their teacher too much credit and believing they know what's best because why else would they be the teacher. If that makes sense...