able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?

[tds]

so!,  i've performed relatively difficult pieces, like ravel's gaspard, beethoven's pc no 4, prokofieff 7, brahms' handel variations, etc. and i am confident to say that i must have played my program with some inspiration and personality. it is a fact that tickets for my concerts are usually sold out, and no one critic has ever said something like "he only plays the notes", or "he plays under tempo", or "his technique sucks".

and, on the side of the coin, i don't see myself a virtuoso ( is it good or not? dunno! ). now, what sort am i?

tds

[tds]

oh and btw, please, dont call me semi-virtuoso or semi-anything....

just don't! 

[allthumbs]

Hey tds

How about 'Journeyman Virtuso'? 

allthumbs

[tds]

How about 'Journeyman Virtuso'? 

thats quite original..

but still, the word virtuoso is there. hmmm....anymore idea, perhaps?

[ramseytheii]

You should tell us, why you don't see yourself a virtuoso.  I think the word for your case (based on your mentality) is dilettante; by that I mean a level of commitment and expertise less than that of virtuoso.  If you think you have the commitment and expertise, be a virtuoso.  But don't worry about calling it yourself; others will call it for you.

Walter Ramsey

[dnephi]

You should tell us, why you don't see yourself a virtuoso. I think the word for your case (based on your mentality) is dilettante; by that I mean a level of commitment and expertise less than that of virtuoso. If you think you have the commitment and expertise, be a virtuoso. But don't worry about calling it yourself; others will call it for you.

Walter Ramsey

They will- I was called a virtuoso long before I even came close to what I'd consider a virtuoso, and I'm still not there.

[ramseytheii]

They will- I was called a virtuoso long before I even came close to what I'd consider a virtuoso, and I'm still not there.

This calls to mind an interesting passage from Busoni:

"In my own development as an artist it has been made evident to me, time and time again, that success comes from the careful observance of details.  All students should strive to estimate their own artistic ability very accurately.  A wrong estimate always leads to a dangerous condition.  If I had failed to attend to certain details many years ago, I would have stopped very far short of anything like success.

I remember that when I concluded my term as professor of piano at the New England Conservatory Of Music I was very conscious of certain deficiencies in my style.  Notwithstanding the fact that I had been accepted as a virtuoso in Europe and in America and had toured with great orchestras such as the Boston Symphony Orchestra, I knew better than anyone else that there were certain details in my playing that I could not afford to neglect.

For instance, I knew that my method of playing the trill could be greatly improved and I also knew that I lacked force and endurance in certain passages.  Fortunately, although a comparatively young man, I was not deceived by the flattery of well-meaning, but incapable critics, who were quite willing to convince me that my playing was as perfect as it was possible to make it.  Every seeker of artistic truth is more widely awake to his own deficiencies that any of his critics could possibly be.

In order to rectify the details I have mentioned as well as some I have not mentioned, I have come to the conclusion that I must devise an entirely new technical system.  Technical systems are best when they are individual.  Speaking theoretically, every individual needs a different technical system.  Every hand, every arm, every set of ten fingers, every body and, what is of greatest importance, every intellect is different from every other.  I consequently endeavored to get down to the basic laws underlying the subject of technic and make a system of my own.

After much study, I discovered what I believed to be the technical cause of my defects and then I returned to Europe and for two years I devoted myself almost exclusively to technical study along the individual lines I had devised.  To my great delight details that had always defied me, the rebellious trills, the faltering bravura passages, the uneven runs, all came into beautiful submission and with them came a new delight in playing."

Walter Ramsey

[Etude]

Virtuoso doesn't mean anything in itself... it's just a description.  You can't be almost a virtuoso.  It's like saying "this ball is almost gigantic".

[bench warmer]

 If you are a male semi-Virtuoso then you would be a Virtuino.

If you are a female semi-V.  then you would be a Virtuina.

IF you are neither of the above, yet have not totally excelled in your calling, then you are a Virtuo-ninny.

(This, of course, all derived from the time when Dante forged all the ancient Italian dialects into the classic "Florentine" Italian used by scholars presently.)

                                                       

[tds]

You should tell us, why you don't see yourself a virtuoso.

Walter Ramsey

i just don't, and no one's told me that i am a virtuoso. a lot of people say i am a musician, instead.

They will- I was called a virtuoso long before I even came close to what I'd consider a virtuoso, and I'm still not there.

and what would u consider urself?

Virtuoso doesn't mean anything in itself... it's just a description.  You can't be almost a virtuoso.  It's like saying "this ball is almost gigantic".

description of what, etude? is it not subject to relativity?

If you are a male semi-Virtuoso then you would be a Virtuino.

If you are a female semi-V.  then you would be a Virtuina.

IF you are neither of the above, yet have not totally excelled in your calling, then you are a Virtuo-ninny.

(This, of course, all derived from the time when Dante forged all the ancient Italian dialects into the classic "Florentine" Italian used by scholars presently.)

                                                       

that sorta coo..

and here comes more questions:

1. do you have like virtuinossimo sempre cantabile?
2. or like virtuo-ninno? or molto virtuo-ninny?
3. what are the alternative terms for their sibling words that don't start with "v". me getting bored with that consonant..

This calls to mind an interesting passage from Busoni:

"In my own development as an artist it has been made evident to me, time and time again, that success comes from the careful observance of details.  All students should strive to estimate their own artistic ability very accurately.  A wrong estimate always leads to a dangerous condition.  If I had failed to attend to certain details many years ago, I would have stopped very far short of anything like success.

I remember that when I concluded my term as professor of piano at the New England Conservatory Of Music I was very conscious of certain deficiencies in my style.  Notwithstanding the fact that I had been accepted as a virtuoso in Europe and in America and had toured with great orchestras such as the Boston Symphony Orchestra, I knew better than anyone else that there were certain details in my playing that I could not afford to neglect.

For instance, I knew that my method of playing the trill could be greatly improved and I also knew that I lacked force and endurance in certain passages.  Fortunately, although a comparatively young man, I was not deceived by the flattery of well-meaning, but incapable critics, who were quite willing to convince me that my playing was as perfect as it was possible to make it.  Every seeker of artistic truth is more widely awake to his own deficiencies that any of his critics could possibly be.

In order to rectify the details I have mentioned as well as some I have not mentioned, I have come to the conclusion that I must devise an entirely new technical system.  Technical systems are best when they are individual.  Speaking theoretically, every individual needs a different technical system.  Every hand, every arm, every set of ten fingers, every body and, what is of greatest importance, every intellect is different from every other.  I consequently endeavored to get down to the basic laws underlying the subject of technic and make a system of my own.

After much study, I discovered what I believed to be the technical cause of my defects and then I returned to Europe and for two years I devoted myself almost exclusively to technical study along the individual lines I had devised.  To my great delight details that had always defied me, the rebellious trills, the faltering bravura passages, the uneven runs, all came into beautiful submission and with them came a new delight in playing."

Walter Ramsey

i read the above with much interest. thx

tds

[opus10no2]

You are, quite simply, too slow.

[tds]

You are, quite simply, too slow.

if i increase the speed, just for the sake of being faster, which is often not difficult, i become a virtuoso in your term?   

* tds wonders if it's better to stay true with self, or to play things faster just to be called a virtuoso by opus10no2*

...

*tds knows the answer*

oh and btw, opus, r u fast? wait,...i mean..like in...well..nevermind 

[dnephi]

You are, quite simply, too slow.

That's what she said.

[ramseytheii]

i just don't, and no one's told me that i am a virtuoso. a lot of people say i am a musician, instead.

Oh, I see - you're of the mind that a person is either one or the other?

Walter Ramsey

[tds]

That's what she said.

where is the emoticon at the end? else ur sentence hasnt made sense...

Oh, I see - you're of the mind that a person is either one or the other?

nope. i merely stated a fact.

i KNOW, there are plenty musicians who are virtuosi, but not sure if :
1. ALL virtuosi are musicians
2. ALL musicians are virtuosi
3. we have come to an agreed-upon definition of virtuoso/ity. mayla's thread asking about the exactly definition of virtuosity makes a glaring example. the question might now be: how and when can all, or the good majority of us agree on one definition of virtuoso/ity?

just a thought. tds

[gyzzzmo]

I would call it an amateur, wich can be quite a compliment in some cases.

[ramseytheii]

Yes, I think either amateur or dilettante is the word.

Walter Ramsey

[tds]

I would call it an amateur, wich can be quite a compliment in some cases.

actually, i quite like the word as it'd take me out of pressure. ur rather innovative, gyzzzmo!  as we all know, giving concerts can be stressful, but my engagements pay fairly good money. a couple of concerts bring me a decent car. in fact, now i wanna be an amateur something else too, so i can quickly save money to buy a house. tds

[Triton]

Hi TDS. It's been ages just like the last time 

Think the word you're looking for is ... SOLID ...

Regards,
Triton

[tds]

hi triton! indeed its been a century! how u doin buddy?!

so, solid, huh? i like it. thank you. warmest, tds

[gyzzzmo]

actually, i quite like the word as it'd take me out of pressure. ur rather innovative, gyzzzmo!  as we all know, giving concerts can be stressful, but my engagements pay fairly good money. a couple of concerts bring me a decent car. in fact, now i wanna be an amateur something else too, so i can quickly save money to buy a house. tds

Remarkable, how i can make somebody that happy by calling him an amateur

[tds]

*wonders if it is remarkable to be (peculiarly) surprised at the good result of one's own remark*

[mephisto]

I would call it an amateur, wich can be quite a compliment in some cases.

Isn't it quite possibly to be a professional and not a virtuoso? Meaning any non-virtuoso doesn't have to be an amateur.

[gyzzzmo]

Isn't it quite possibly to be a professional and not a virtuoso? Meaning any non-virtuoso doesn't have to be an amateur.

Dam, the emperor strikes back!

But you got a point there yes, there are people who make their (crappy) living from playing piano alone, wich technically makes them a professional i gues. But ofcourse, 'amateur' can be seen both figurative as literally

[mephisto]

Dam, the emperor strikes back!

But you got a point there yes, there are people who make their (crappy) living from playing piano alone, wich technically makes them a professional i gues. But ofcourse, 'amateur' can be seen both figurative as literally

Heh, now I understand what you mean

[mattgreenecomposer]

I think the name you are looking for is... 

Looking around the college classroom there is always that person thats just a little too old to be there, and sits in the front of the room.  The name given to the person that returns to college late in their life to major in business and make some money.  Yep, I think thats the name your looking for.  Lets add it too the dictionary.

-Joking

[rachfan]

I like precision.  So here are some definitions (courtesy of Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary) of terms suggested so far:   

Virtuoso: One who exhibits great technical skill in the practice of the fine arts, especially in music.

Musician: One skilled in music, especially a composer or professional performer.

Dilettante: A lover of the fine arts, especially one who follows an art or a branch of knowledge desultorily or superficially, or as a pastime.

Amateur: One who cultivates a particular pursuit, study, or science from  taste, without pursuing it professionally.

Professional: Engaging for livelihood or gain in an activity pursued, usually or often, for noncommercial satisfaction by amateurs.

Journeyman: A worker who has learned a handicraft or trade, distinguished from apprentice, foreman and master.

Let me add one now:

Artist: One who professes and practices an art in which conception and execution are governed by imagination and taste; a person skilled in one of the fine arts.

tds, because you give public recitals where tickets are sold, from the above I believe it would be appropriate to refer to yourself as a professional artist.   

Unfortunately, I think that occasionally virtuoso, amateur and dilettante are assigned pejorative connotations by some people.  Examples: One can be accused of displaying virtuosity without true musicianship.  Some professionals take amateurs very lightly.  Or a dilettante can be criticized as having passion for an art, but also be lacking in talent, expertise and/or ability within that world.   

As I identify with this interesting question and put a "label" on myself, I continue to stick with "amateur".  Piano has been a lifelong (and very rewarding) avocation, but never my vocation per se.   I do consider myself to be an accomplished amateur, but still... an amateur nonetheless.       

[tds]

I like precision.  So here are some definitions (courtesy of Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary) of terms suggested so far:   

Virtuoso: One who exhibits great technical skill in the practice of the fine arts, especially in music.

Musician: One skilled in music, especially a composer or professional performer.

Dilettante: A lover of the fine arts, especially one who follows an art or a branch of knowledge desultorily or superficially, or as a pastime.

Amateur: One who cultivates a particular pursuit, study, or science from  taste, without pursuing it professionally.

Professional: Engaging for livelihood or gain in an activity pursued, usually or often, for noncommercial satisfactions by amateurs.

Journeyman: A worker who has learned a handicraft or trade, distinguished from apprentice, foreman and master.

Let me add one now:

Artist: One who professes and practices an art in which conception and execution are governed by imagination and taste; a person skilled in one of the fine arts.

tds, because you give public recitals where tickets are sold, from the above I believe it would be appropriate to refer to yourself as a professional artist.   

Unfortunately, I think that occasionally virtuoso, amateur and dilettante are assigned pejorative connotations by some people.  Examples: One can be accused of displaying virtuosity without true musicianship.  Some professionals take amateurs very lightly.  Or a dilettante can be criticized as having passion for an art, but also be lacking in talent, expertise and/or ability within that world.   

As I identify with this interesting question and put a "label" on myself, I continue to stick with "amateur".  Piano has been a lifelong (and very rewarding) avocation, but never my vocation per se.   I do consider myself to be an accomplished amateur, but still... an amateur nonetheless.       

dear rachfan, ur attempt to acquire precision was examplary. thank you for taking the time to wirte this fine presentation. warmest, tds

[rachfan]

You're entirely welcome, tds!