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Topic: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?  (Read 2155 times)

Offline tds

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so!,  i've performed relatively difficult pieces, like ravel's gaspard, beethoven's pc no 4, prokofieff 7, brahms' handel variations, etc. and i am confident to say that i must have played my program with some inspiration and personality. it is a fact that tickets for my concerts are usually sold out, and no one critic has ever said something like "he only plays the notes", or "he plays under tempo", or "his technique sucks".

and, on the side of the coin, i don't see myself a virtuoso ( is it good or not? dunno! ). now, what sort am i?

tds
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Offline tds

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #1 on: May 01, 2008, 05:09:27 AM
oh and btw, please, dont call me semi-virtuoso or semi-anything....

just don't!  ;D ;D
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Offline allthumbs

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #2 on: May 01, 2008, 08:13:50 AM
Hey tds

How about 'Journeyman Virtuso'?  ;D

allthumbs
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Offline tds

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #3 on: May 01, 2008, 12:02:38 PM

How about 'Journeyman Virtuso'?  ;D


thats quite original.. 8)

but still, the word virtuoso is there. hmmm....anymore idea, perhaps?
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Offline ramseytheii

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #4 on: May 01, 2008, 06:01:39 PM
You should tell us, why you don't see yourself a virtuoso.  I think the word for your case (based on your mentality) is dilettante; by that I mean a level of commitment and expertise less than that of virtuoso.  If you think you have the commitment and expertise, be a virtuoso.  But don't worry about calling it yourself; others will call it for you.

Walter Ramsey


Offline dnephi

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #5 on: May 01, 2008, 06:22:26 PM
You should tell us, why you don't see yourself a virtuoso. I think the word for your case (based on your mentality) is dilettante; by that I mean a level of commitment and expertise less than that of virtuoso. If you think you have the commitment and expertise, be a virtuoso. But don't worry about calling it yourself; others will call it for you.

Walter Ramsey



They will- I was called a virtuoso long before I even came close to what I'd consider a virtuoso, and I'm still not there.
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline ramseytheii

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #6 on: May 01, 2008, 06:54:16 PM
They will- I was called a virtuoso long before I even came close to what I'd consider a virtuoso, and I'm still not there.

This calls to mind an interesting passage from Busoni:

"In my own development as an artist it has been made evident to me, time and time again, that success comes from the careful observance of details.  All students should strive to estimate their own artistic ability very accurately.  A wrong estimate always leads to a dangerous condition.  If I had failed to attend to certain details many years ago, I would have stopped very far short of anything like success.

I remember that when I concluded my term as professor of piano at the New England Conservatory Of Music I was very conscious of certain deficiencies in my style.  Notwithstanding the fact that I had been accepted as a virtuoso in Europe and in America and had toured with great orchestras such as the Boston Symphony Orchestra, I knew better than anyone else that there were certain details in my playing that I could not afford to neglect.

For instance, I knew that my method of playing the trill could be greatly improved and I also knew that I lacked force and endurance in certain passages.  Fortunately, although a comparatively young man, I was not deceived by the flattery of well-meaning, but incapable critics, who were quite willing to convince me that my playing was as perfect as it was possible to make it.  Every seeker of artistic truth is more widely awake to his own deficiencies that any of his critics could possibly be.

In order to rectify the details I have mentioned as well as some I have not mentioned, I have come to the conclusion that I must devise an entirely new technical system.  Technical systems are best when they are individual.  Speaking theoretically, every individual needs a different technical system.  Every hand, every arm, every set of ten fingers, every body and, what is of greatest importance, every intellect is different from every other.  I consequently endeavored to get down to the basic laws underlying the subject of technic and make a system of my own.

After much study, I discovered what I believed to be the technical cause of my defects and then I returned to Europe and for two years I devoted myself almost exclusively to technical study along the individual lines I had devised.  To my great delight details that had always defied me, the rebellious trills, the faltering bravura passages, the uneven runs, all came into beautiful submission and with them came a new delight in playing."

Walter Ramsey





Offline Etude

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #7 on: May 01, 2008, 08:44:50 PM
Virtuoso doesn't mean anything in itself... it's just a description.  You can't be almost a virtuoso.  It's like saying "this ball is almost gigantic".

Offline bench warmer

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #8 on: May 01, 2008, 11:27:29 PM
 If you are a male semi-Virtuoso then you would be a Virtuino.

If you are a female semi-V.  then you would be a Virtuina.

IF you are neither of the above, yet have not totally excelled in your calling, then you are a Virtuo-ninny.

(This, of course, all derived from the time when Dante forged all the ancient Italian dialects into the classic "Florentine" Italian used by scholars presently.)

                                                       8)

Offline tds

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #9 on: May 02, 2008, 05:36:59 AM
You should tell us, why you don't see yourself a virtuoso.

Walter Ramsey


i just don't, and no one's told me that i am a virtuoso. a lot of people say i am a musician, instead.

They will- I was called a virtuoso long before I even came close to what I'd consider a virtuoso, and I'm still not there.

and what would u consider urself?

Virtuoso doesn't mean anything in itself... it's just a description.  You can't be almost a virtuoso.  It's like saying "this ball is almost gigantic".

description of what, etude? is it not subject to relativity?

If you are a male semi-Virtuoso then you would be a Virtuino.

If you are a female semi-V.  then you would be a Virtuina.

IF you are neither of the above, yet have not totally excelled in your calling, then you are a Virtuo-ninny.

(This, of course, all derived from the time when Dante forged all the ancient Italian dialects into the classic "Florentine" Italian used by scholars presently.)

                                                       8)



that sorta coo.. ;D ;)

and here comes more questions:

1. do you have like virtuinossimo sempre cantabile?
2. or like virtuo-ninno? or molto virtuo-ninny?
3. what are the alternative terms for their sibling words that don't start with "v". me getting bored with that consonant..

This calls to mind an interesting passage from Busoni:

"In my own development as an artist it has been made evident to me, time and time again, that success comes from the careful observance of details.  All students should strive to estimate their own artistic ability very accurately.  A wrong estimate always leads to a dangerous condition.  If I had failed to attend to certain details many years ago, I would have stopped very far short of anything like success.

I remember that when I concluded my term as professor of piano at the New England Conservatory Of Music I was very conscious of certain deficiencies in my style.  Notwithstanding the fact that I had been accepted as a virtuoso in Europe and in America and had toured with great orchestras such as the Boston Symphony Orchestra, I knew better than anyone else that there were certain details in my playing that I could not afford to neglect.

For instance, I knew that my method of playing the trill could be greatly improved and I also knew that I lacked force and endurance in certain passages.  Fortunately, although a comparatively young man, I was not deceived by the flattery of well-meaning, but incapable critics, who were quite willing to convince me that my playing was as perfect as it was possible to make it.  Every seeker of artistic truth is more widely awake to his own deficiencies that any of his critics could possibly be.

In order to rectify the details I have mentioned as well as some I have not mentioned, I have come to the conclusion that I must devise an entirely new technical system.  Technical systems are best when they are individual.  Speaking theoretically, every individual needs a different technical system.  Every hand, every arm, every set of ten fingers, every body and, what is of greatest importance, every intellect is different from every other.  I consequently endeavored to get down to the basic laws underlying the subject of technic and make a system of my own.

After much study, I discovered what I believed to be the technical cause of my defects and then I returned to Europe and for two years I devoted myself almost exclusively to technical study along the individual lines I had devised.  To my great delight details that had always defied me, the rebellious trills, the faltering bravura passages, the uneven runs, all came into beautiful submission and with them came a new delight in playing."

Walter Ramsey







i read the above with much interest. thx

tds

dignity, love and joy.

Offline opus10no2

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #10 on: May 02, 2008, 07:49:22 AM
You are, quite simply, too slow.
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Offline tds

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #11 on: May 02, 2008, 11:40:50 AM
You are, quite simply, too slow.

if i increase the speed, just for the sake of being faster, which is often not difficult, i become a virtuoso in your term?   ;D ;D

* tds wonders if it's better to stay true with self, or to play things faster just to be called a virtuoso by opus10no2*

...

*tds knows the answer*

oh and btw, opus, r u fast? wait,...i mean..like in...well..nevermind  ;D ;D
dignity, love and joy.

Offline dnephi

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #12 on: May 02, 2008, 02:00:01 PM
You are, quite simply, too slow.
That's what she said.
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Offline ramseytheii

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #13 on: May 02, 2008, 02:13:16 PM
i just don't, and no one's told me that i am a virtuoso. a lot of people say i am a musician, instead.



Oh, I see - you're of the mind that a person is either one or the other?

Walter Ramsey


Offline tds

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #14 on: May 02, 2008, 02:50:56 PM
That's what she said.

where is the emoticon at the end? else ur sentence hasnt made sense... :D


Oh, I see - you're of the mind that a person is either one or the other?


nope. i merely stated a fact.

i KNOW, there are plenty musicians who are virtuosi, but not sure if :
1. ALL virtuosi are musicians
2. ALL musicians are virtuosi
3. we have come to an agreed-upon definition of virtuoso/ity. mayla's thread asking about the exactly definition of virtuosity makes a glaring example. the question might now be: how and when can all, or the good majority of us agree on one definition of virtuoso/ity?

just a thought. tds
dignity, love and joy.

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #15 on: May 05, 2008, 09:33:09 PM
I would call it an amateur, wich can be quite a compliment in some cases.
1+1=11

Offline ramseytheii

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #16 on: May 05, 2008, 10:44:15 PM
Yes, I think either amateur or dilettante is the word.

Walter Ramsey


Offline tds

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #17 on: May 06, 2008, 03:31:28 AM
I would call it an amateur, wich can be quite a compliment in some cases.

actually, i quite like the word as it'd take me out of pressure. ur rather innovative, gyzzzmo!  as we all know, giving concerts can be stressful, but my engagements pay fairly good money. a couple of concerts bring me a decent car. in fact, now i wanna be an amateur something else too, so i can quickly save money to buy a house. tds
dignity, love and joy.

Offline Triton

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #18 on: May 06, 2008, 11:37:33 AM
Hi TDS. It's been ages just like the last time  ;D

Think the word you're looking for is ... SOLID ... :)

Regards,
Triton

Offline tds

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #19 on: May 06, 2008, 01:48:43 PM
hi triton! ;D indeed its been a century! how u doin buddy?!

so, solid, huh? i like it. thank you. warmest, tds
dignity, love and joy.

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #20 on: May 06, 2008, 02:22:09 PM
actually, i quite like the word as it'd take me out of pressure. ur rather innovative, gyzzzmo!  as we all know, giving concerts can be stressful, but my engagements pay fairly good money. a couple of concerts bring me a decent car. in fact, now i wanna be an amateur something else too, so i can quickly save money to buy a house. tds

Remarkable, how i can make somebody that happy by calling him an amateur ;)
1+1=11

Offline tds

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #21 on: May 06, 2008, 03:16:53 PM
*wonders if it is remarkable to be (peculiarly) surprised at the good result of one's own remark* ;)
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Offline mephisto

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #22 on: May 06, 2008, 04:36:23 PM
I would call it an amateur, wich can be quite a compliment in some cases.

Isn't it quite possibly to be a professional and not a virtuoso? Meaning any non-virtuoso doesn't have to be an amateur.

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #23 on: May 06, 2008, 07:39:33 PM
Isn't it quite possibly to be a professional and not a virtuoso? Meaning any non-virtuoso doesn't have to be an amateur.

Dam, the emperor strikes back!

But you got a point there yes, there are people who make their (crappy) living from playing piano alone, wich technically makes them a professional i gues. But ofcourse, 'amateur' can be seen both figurative as literally ;)
1+1=11

Offline mephisto

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #24 on: May 07, 2008, 11:01:22 AM
Dam, the emperor strikes back!

But you got a point there yes, there are people who make their (crappy) living from playing piano alone, wich technically makes them a professional i gues. But ofcourse, 'amateur' can be seen both figurative as literally ;)

Heh, now I understand what you mean ;)

Offline mattgreenecomposer

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #25 on: May 07, 2008, 04:39:19 PM
I think the name you are looking for is... 

Looking around the college classroom there is always that person thats just a little too old to be there, and sits in the front of the room.  The name given to the person that returns to college late in their life to major in business and make some money.  Yep, I think thats the name your looking for.  Lets add it too the dictionary.

-Joking
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Offline rachfan

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #26 on: May 07, 2008, 08:39:46 PM
I like precision.  So here are some definitions (courtesy of Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary) of terms suggested so far:   :)

Virtuoso: One who exhibits great technical skill in the practice of the fine arts, especially in music.

Musician: One skilled in music, especially a composer or professional performer.

Dilettante: A lover of the fine arts, especially one who follows an art or a branch of knowledge desultorily or superficially, or as a pastime.

Amateur: One who cultivates a particular pursuit, study, or science from  taste, without pursuing it professionally.

Professional: Engaging for livelihood or gain in an activity pursued, usually or often, for noncommercial satisfaction by amateurs.

Journeyman: A worker who has learned a handicraft or trade, distinguished from apprentice, foreman and master.

Let me add one now:

Artist: One who professes and practices an art in which conception and execution are governed by imagination and taste; a person skilled in one of the fine arts.

tds, because you give public recitals where tickets are sold, from the above I believe it would be appropriate to refer to yourself as a professional artist.   :)

Unfortunately, I think that occasionally virtuoso, amateur and dilettante are assigned pejorative connotations by some people.  Examples: One can be accused of displaying virtuosity without true musicianship.  Some professionals take amateurs very lightly.  Or a dilettante can be criticized as having passion for an art, but also be lacking in talent, expertise and/or ability within that world.   

As I identify with this interesting question and put a "label" on myself, I continue to stick with "amateur".  Piano has been a lifelong (and very rewarding) avocation, but never my vocation per se.   I do consider myself to be an accomplished amateur, but still... an amateur nonetheless.       
Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities.

Offline tds

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #27 on: May 08, 2008, 06:10:41 AM
I like precision.  So here are some definitions (courtesy of Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary) of terms suggested so far:   :)

Virtuoso: One who exhibits great technical skill in the practice of the fine arts, especially in music.

Musician: One skilled in music, especially a composer or professional performer.

Dilettante: A lover of the fine arts, especially one who follows an art or a branch of knowledge desultorily or superficially, or as a pastime.

Amateur: One who cultivates a particular pursuit, study, or science from  taste, without pursuing it professionally.

Professional: Engaging for livelihood or gain in an activity pursued, usually or often, for noncommercial satisfactions by amateurs.

Journeyman: A worker who has learned a handicraft or trade, distinguished from apprentice, foreman and master.

Let me add one now:

Artist: One who professes and practices an art in which conception and execution are governed by imagination and taste; a person skilled in one of the fine arts.

tds, because you give public recitals where tickets are sold, from the above I believe it would be appropriate to refer to yourself as a professional artist.   :)

Unfortunately, I think that occasionally virtuoso, amateur and dilettante are assigned pejorative connotations by some people.  Examples: One can be accused of displaying virtuosity without true musicianship.  Some professionals take amateurs very lightly.  Or a dilettante can be criticized as having passion for an art, but also be lacking in talent, expertise and/or ability within that world.   

As I identify with this interesting question and put a "label" on myself, I continue to stick with "amateur".  Piano has been a lifelong (and very rewarding) avocation, but never my vocation per se.   I do consider myself to be an accomplished amateur, but still... an amateur nonetheless.       

dear rachfan, ur attempt to acquire precision was examplary. thank you for taking the time to wirte this fine presentation. warmest, tds
dignity, love and joy.

Offline rachfan

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Re: able, but not seemingly a virtuoso. what's it called?
Reply #28 on: May 08, 2008, 05:26:29 PM
You're entirely welcome, tds!
Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities.
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