For Advanced Students: How Much to Practice?

[pianoperformer]

I’ve been playing the piano since five years old, and I am now 19 and major in piano performance at Duquesne University.

I’m confused about how much I should practice, though. Three hours is a minimum requirement at the university, but I don’t feel like that’s enough. I’ve been doing around 4 hours lately, but I’m still not sure, especially because of the pieces I’m working on: Piano Concerto No. 2 in G minor, Op. 22 by Saint-Saëns, Sonata No. 5 in C minor, Op. 10, No. 1, Allegro molto e con brio by Beethoven, and Prelude and Fugue No. 12 in F minor from book II of the Well-Tempered Clavier. My goal is to get into a good conservatory after finishing my undergrad, and eventually to be a concert pianist.

I’ve been slowly increasing, by a few minutes per day, but I’m not sure what my goal should be. I know people say to do whatever you think is necessary, but there are always things one can work on and improve. Therefore, I like to have a specific time in mind.

I don’t practice this all in one session. I usually split this up into 40-60 minute sessions and take 15 minute breaks in between, taking a longer break after a few of these sessions. I find it goes a lot faster that way.

But I still don’t know how much to do. Apparently I did OK at 3-4 hours this past semester, as I got an A in my jury and won an award for my Jury program, but the pieces I’m doing now are more difficult. In addition, I realize that though my level might be very good according to the standards of this university, the standards of a conservatory are going to be much higher, and take more work to meet and surpass.

[allthumbs]

Welcome to the forum pianoperformer.

I think you already answered your question in your post. It looks like you are doing great and are managing the workload that the University experience requires.

There are only so many hours in a day and you need to find a balance between practicing and the rest of your daily schedule. It sounds like you have a handle on that.

I don't think that setting a specific practice time length is necessary or all that helpful.

You will adjust the amount of time you practice as needed for the level of difficulty of the pieces and the expectations of the university. It will depend on your natural talent and the efficiency of your practice routine.

Good luck in your studies and in your future pursuits.



Kind Regards,

allthumbs

 

[pianoperformer]

allthumbs, thank you for the welcome.

I understand your point, but I also mean in order to have a better chance at achieving the goals I mentioned. I already know that I apparently am thus far exceeding the expectations of the university, which is my goal, anyway. I don't merely want to meet the expectations and leave it at that.

Thanks for your reply and input.

[gyzzzmo]

For piano, i think your goal should be like 6 hours a day. Just make sure you arrange your learning repetoire effectivly and take your breaks

[pianoperformer]

For piano, i think your goal should be like 6 hours a day. Just make sure you arrange your learning repetoire effectivly and take your breaks

I think that sounds like a good number. I saw a video on YouTube once, where part of it had this piano teacher from Juilliard that suggested aspiring concert pianists needed between 4-6 hours per day, but not over 6, as you'd see diminished returns after that. I think the video is here, but it is part III.

I'm slowly increasing, though, like I said, because I don't want to get burned out, plus I have all summer to increase and get used to the extra hours.

What did you mean, though, by "arranging your repertoire effectively"? Right now it's pretty much chosen, or at least nudged in the right direction, by my piano teacher at college, but I'm still curious what you mean here.

[slobone]

If you're trying to get into a good conservatory, keep in mind that the competition is very tough these days. You'll be up against students who have practiced phenomenally long hours. You're going to need a lot of stamina, so now is the time to start developing it.

It would be nice to say, keep a balanced schedule, allow plenty of time for recreation & socializing with your friends, etc. That's certainly the advice I'd give a high school student. But at your stage, you really have to go for it.

There certainly have always been a certain number of artists who can achieve great things while still practicing fewer hours than their peers (Rubinstein comes to mind). But if you were one of those, you'd already know it, right?

[pianoperformer]

slobone, that's what I think as well. But do you have any specifics as regards hours per day? I don't care how much it is, I just want to know so I can shoot for it and prepare.

[Bob]

Wouldn't it be as much as you can?

Even after you go brain dead, you can still do technical work and just review pieces so you know more literature.

[pianoperformer]

Wouldn't it be as much as you can?

Even after you go brain dead, you can still do technical work and just review pieces so you know more literature.

I suppose; then how about a minimum?

And is there any point at which more practice would not be so good? I've heard of such examples before where people practice too much and either it sounds mechanical, or it just falls apart.

So obviously I want to do as much as I can, but not so much that it is a detriment.

[Bob]

That's why I was thinking just keep browsing through pieces so you are familiar with them.  There's no end to it all.

My body just worn down after after.  But that was doing the same thing each day.    Sleep and recovery are important too.

I think there's higher quality, but you can always just add another piece or another section and cover that. 

I'm not sure though.  I just figured concert artists had the genes, talent part there and then worked all the time.  If you're gunning for a concert career you're competing against the prodigies playing since they were toddlers, and the ones who make it on into the music world.  That's tough. 

I would still say as much as possible.  And then keep the quality up anyway if it's starting to go.  Push in that direction.

[pianoperformer]

Yeah I know it'll be tough. I mean, i've also been playing for a long time and my piano teacher tells me I have excelent technique, but I know it will still be very tough.

I just don't know how much to work to try to have the greatest rate of improvement. I'll shoot for 6 hours for now and see how I feel there. I don't know how much I'll be able to do once next semester starts, since I'll have 9 classes.

Thanks for your input.

[pianoperformer]

Well, here's another question that might help me a bit more.

What do you think I will need to do to have the greatest chance of getting into a good conservatory? I'd prefer no vague answers like "just practice a lot," because that's obvious. I'm looking for something more concrete that I can use to make my efforts a bit more pointed and as motivation. I have roughly 3 years to prepare for it.

Again, I am very grateful for everyone's help.

[Bob]

That's what I was wondering about -- having to do other things.

To get in?

Have a great, great teacher.  Their recommendation won't hurt.  And the conservatory people will know this teacher.  They probably already accepted other students of that teacher.

Play difficult material.  Just to show you've got chops.  But more importantly, play it with expression.  They want to see potential and that you have a musical soul.  They want to see that you have the potential to do well at their school and do well after you graduate.  It's not just enough that you're good enough to get in, you need to be good enough to do well there and graduate and do well.  You're also taking up a space in someone's studio.  You're that teacher's accomplishment and you're preventing someone else from getting that time and experience.  They're looking out for their investment.  And for their school.  If you look good, they look good.  I would put expression over difficulty for material, but if you want the best of the best... You're already playing that stuff anyway and technique isn't an issue.

Have plenty of repertoire already done before you go.  You're just going to work with that one teacher on your way to your career anyway. 

Meet these people ahead of time.  Maybe even take lessons with them.  It doesn't hurt to already know the teacher you will be working with.  If that person is already you're teacher... they can make sure you get in and get in their studio.  Rules are just rules and there are always ways around them.


Have a teacher who's already preparing students who are getting into those places.  Then you know you've got good avice from that person and a good chance at getting in.

Decent instrument, etc.

Search for other threads.  This sounds familiar.  I keep always saying that, but there must be other stuff on this site.

Be rich.  Yes, rich.  Having money won't hurt at all.  If you're rich, you don't have to work to live.  You can live to play.  I've seen more people who didn't have to work who were professional musicians, the top ones in symphonies and things.  Their father owns a block of New York or something.  They have time and money to hire the best teachers to prepare them.  I had one for a seminar who was rich, became poor (I think it was an accident or something, family emergency), and then became rich again.  I remember that guy saying someone told him, "Oh?  You mean you... work?"

Be healthy and all that.  Or be nuts and focus on music.  Something like that.  You need the mental, physical, and emotional stamina for the career, not just the practicing.

Concertize a lot already.  Enter and win competitions. 

Focus more on the career of a concert pianist rather than the school.  The school is just a school.  If you're already going, the school isn't going to be much more than just making connections. 

I'm trying to think of more.  You'd have an extensive repertoire under your belt, be studying with a great teacher, winning competitions.... Be living piano.  You'd be performing recitals. 

That's about all I can think of right now. 

[pianoperformer]

Great suggestions. I can't do much in the way of a teacher because I'm already provided with private lessons at the university I attend now. Perhaps, though, if I let he rknow my goals when I go back next semester, she can give advice and poitn me in the direction I need to go. She's already been giving me sufficiently difficult material (the piano concerto and all), I think mostly because I proved myself this past semester. But perhaps if she knows how serious I am about it, then she can help more.

She already plans for me to enter a piano concerto competition in a year. I'll have to see what other competitions there are.

I admit she's the toughest teacher i've had (she's a very stern Russian lady, if you can get the picture), so it's something to adjust to, but she demands excellence, which I like.

I'll start planning to not have a sociall life starting next semester. Well really starting this summer, as has already happened, because of the material I am expected to learn. Hopefully if I finished what I was assigned, I can start something else. I always feel guilty starting unassigned material until the material I was assigned is as close to perfection as I can get it.

I'm mostly thinking out loud. It is discouraging at times because there are indeed those who have practiced 8 hours a day since who knows what age. I started early but wasn't big on practicing hours at a time. Therefore this is all rather new to me, but I'm hoping to still have a chance.

[Bob]

Don't kill yourself over it. 

I notice you're still putting things in terms of this teacher and school though. 

You probably also want a teacher who's done this stuff before too.  Either prepping up lots of student for this or having it done it themself (and then apparently having failed since they're now teaching).  Although if they prepare lots of students for that... Where are all those concert artists?

[pianoperformer]

That's because I'm an undergrad right now, so already have a teacher through the university. Are you saying to find a second? That might be a bit difficult with a full 17-credit schedule.

[nyonyo]

You have played piano for at least 15years and you are a music major, you should have known by now what needed to master piece up to concert level. It sounds like you do not really want to practice. If playing piano is your life (the way you make money), do it like other normal people. Other people work 8 hours a day, and so should you.

Everybody has different talent, some people can master many pieces in a few hours, but some just can't. You know your capacity so adjust your practice time accordingly.

Or if you think that you do not have enough talent to master those pieces like the way concert pianists do, you may want to change your goal. Practice hard just to enter competition and then just become an expensive piano teacher after that. It is hard to be in the concert circuit if you cannot master many pieces in short time.

Good luck.

[pianoperformer]

You have played piano for at least 15years and you are a music major, you should have known by now what needed to master piece up to concert level. It sounds like you do not really want to practice. If playing piano is your life (the way you make money), do it like other normal people. Other people work 8 hours a day, and so should you.

Everybody has different talent, some people can master many pieces in a few hours, but some just can't. You know your capacity so adjust your practice time accordingly.

Or if you think that you do not have enough talent to master those pieces like the way concert pianists do, you may want to change your goal. Practice hard just to enter competition and then just become an expensive piano teacher after that. It is hard to be in the concert circuit if you cannot master many pieces in short time.

Good luck.

Whoa, excuse me? No need to be rude. I am simply wondering what people suggest. of course I want to do this.

But as far as that goes, I don't know if I can do as much time as you suggest because of other classes, obviously. I already have 17 credits next semester, for example, plus studying for these classes. I'm not trying to make excuses, but I just can't imagine there being 8 hours for practice after 9 classes and the time that needs to be put into these classes to do well. Well really, 8 classes, as one of them is the piano lessons. In addition, I've heard teachers say that an aspiring concert pianist shouldn't practice much more than 6 hours, so I'm not sure what to believe there.

I just take a bit of offense to your post, especially implying that I don't want to do what I say I want to do. Yes, I know what it takes to master a piece. I am already able to do this. I've been performing almost since I began playing.

[tds]

I've been performing almost since I began playing.

i wish i'd been able to do the same, as i would've been a much more experienced performer by now. btw, what pieces did you perform back when you were young?

[pianoperformer]

i wish i'd been able to do the same, as i would've been a much more experienced performer by now. btw, what pieces did you perform back when you were young?

I started classical music about a year after I began playing, I think ( so around 6 years old). I remember I started with some Bach minuets, folowed by Fur Elise. After that, I don't remember. I always was partial to the romantic period, in addition to anything by Beethoven. I do remember learning the first movement to Pathétique sometime back then. I changed teachers at the age of 10 though because I felt restricted by my first piano teacher.

I performed at least two or three places every year, whether in recitals or talent shows or whatever, always winning first in the competitions.

I reiterate, I was never big on practicing—well I went through stages. But I always still made pieces performable. But being a music major has done wonders for my accuracy and technique, or at least that has come out through the additional practice.

[nyonyo]

You need to make that difficult decision in your life!!

If you are not that talented in playing piano, you'd better off learning something else so that you can bring meal for your family. Being a neighborhood piano teacher will not bring enough money. What is the chance of people who do not go to a famous music school can become a concert pianist? If you are not a concert pianists, the chance to be hired as professor in a university is very slim. In life, you have to be honest to yourself!

Just for your information, people in Russia who go to school for talented kids learn not only playing piano. They learn Chemistry, Physic, Math etc. It is much tougher than what you study in your college. Therefore, if you cannot handle what you do at this moment, it is a strong indication that you do not have enough talent to survive as a concert pianist.

[pianoperformer]

You need to make that difficult decision in your life!!

If you are not that talented in playing piano, you'd better off learning something else so that you can bring meal for your family. Being a neighborhood piano teacher will not bring enough money. What is the chance of people who do not go to a famous music school can become a concert pianist? If you are not a concert pianists, the chance to be hired as professor in a university is very slim. In life, you have to be honest to yourself!

Just for your information, people in Russia who go to school for talented kids learn not only playing piano. They learn Chemistry, Physic, Math etc. It is much tougher than what you study in your college. Therefore, if you cannot handle what you do at this moment, it is a strong indication that you do not have enough talent to survive as a concert pianist.

You don't think I know how tough it is? I do. Why do you see the need to keep putting me down though, when you know nothing of my talent? What makes you think I have little or no talent? If you are going to keep insulting me, please quit replying to my posts.

How do you know how tough it is, here? We also have core classes such as math and physics, by the way.

Nor did I say I couldn't handle what I have at this moment. I'm merely saying it's a matter of time. There are 24 hours in a day. I have several hours of classes per day. I have study for these classes. I have practice, which indeed does take priority, but there are other considerations as well. I'm merely saying it is impractical to take a full course load as I am required to do, and still practice 8 hours.

but apparently because I have a full schedule at school, mind you most of these are music classes, anyway, I have no talent. I don't understand your logic.

It was a simple question. You can answer it respectfully, please, or not answer if you find the need to tell me how inadequate I am and how I will never succeed. How about instead of telling me I can't succeed, telling me what I must do to succeed, within reasonable limits (such as time restraints?) I can't add more hours to the day, unfortunately.

[nyonyo]

I cannot really tell what to do, for I do not know what you need.
However, from the school that you are attending  at this moment, I can tell a lot about your piano ability.

In the normal circumantances, a concert pianist usually goes to a well known music school such as Julliard, Curtis and then prepare for a big concert career. One of the way of starting big career is to compete in a big piano compeition. Have you reached those miles stones so far? At 19 if you are destined to be a concert pianist, your piano education is closed to the end. Your technical ability should be closed to that of a professional pianist. If at this stage, you are still not reaching that level, you have to look in the mirror whether you are up to this challange or not.

In addition, people who are really into playing piano, at least in the US,  and preparing to be a REAL concert pianist do not study Math, Physic etc any longer at 19. They just play piano all day long to prepare for big competition or concerts. Therefore, if you are still study those non pianists stuffs, it is a clear indication that you are not in the concert pianist league. Again, be very honest to yourself. You know who you are. Asking other people does not really help you. I just ask you to be HONEST.  That it is. Looking at the reality can be very painful....but you'd better look at it now than later. People may tell you that you can be whatever you want to be. What is the chance of somebody becomes an Olympic runner?

[pianoperformer]

We are talking about how to achieve your concert pianist goal.
In the normal circumantances, a concert pianist usually goes to a well known music school such as Julliard, Curtis and then prepare for a big concert career. One of the way of starting big career is to compete in a big piano compeition. Have you reached those miles stones so far? At 19 if you are destined to be a concert pianist, your piano education is closed to the end. Your technical ability should be closed to a professional pianist. If at this stage, you are still not reaching that level, you have to look in the mirror whether you are up to this challange or not.

In addition, people who are really into playing piano, at least in the US,  and preparing to be a REAL concert pianist do not learn Math, Physic etc any longer at 19. They just play piano all day long to prepare for big competition or concerts. Therefore, if you are still study those non pianists stuffs, it is a clear indication that you are not in the concert pianist league. Again, be very honest to yourself. You know who you are. Asking other people does not really help you. I just ask you to be HONEST.  That it is.

You are wrong. Yes, we do study such things, because they are required at the undergraduate level as core classes. We only have 3 credits in such areas, but we still take them. No, those majoring in piano performance do not just play the piano all day. We have classes, which is the point I've been trying to get across to you. That is why we cannot devote all day to piano, because there are classes to attend. You may say they are not important, but the university education is important to try to improve. I am already accomplished at technique, but there is always improvement.

Sure, once I graduate, and hopefully get into a conservatory, then I'm sure I'll have all the time I want to practice, especially since it'll be focused on piano. However, for now, I am at the undergraduate level. it may not be a conservatory, but it is still a very selective music school, that I hope will prepare me for a conservatory. It is for that reason I asked how I may maximize my chances of getting into such a conservatory.

Therefore, no, my education is not almost over. I have 3 more years at this university, in addition to a few years in a conservatory, depending on what my academic goals are in that respect.

[nyonyo]

If I were you, I would not go to a Conservatory. You'd better dedicate your life to prepare for a competition. Having a bachelor degree and winning competitions are a much better qualification! In addition, it is more fun practicing piano than study unnecessary things.

[pianoperformer]

I don't know. I would rather study under a very good teacher for a few years, which I think a conservatory will allow me to do. I also think it'll look much better for me if I graduate from a conservatory, obviously.

[gyzzzmo]

I think that sounds like a good number. I saw a video on YouTube once, where part of it had this piano teacher from Juilliard that suggested aspiring concert pianists needed between 4-6 hours per day, but not over 6, as you'd see diminished returns after that. I think the video is here, but it is part III.

I'm slowly increasing, though, like I said, because I don't want to get burned out, plus I have all summer to increase and get used to the extra hours.

What did you mean, though, by "arranging your repertoire effectively"? Right now it's pretty much chosen, or at least nudged in the right direction, by my piano teacher at college, but I'm still curious what you mean here.

By arranging you're repertoire effectively, i mean you have to plan everything abit. I usually start the day with technical easy parts to get warm, then i play a serie of etudes, break, second main piece, support etude/break, main piece, supporting etude/break, first main piece, second main piece.

Ofcourse i dont do it as strictly as above, but you shouldnt hammer on certain parts too long, you have to realise that your brains need time to addapt. And playing diversity makes it easier to play long.

gyzzzmo

[pianoperformer]

By arranging you're repertoire effectively, i mean you have to plan everything abit. I usually start the day with technical easy parts to get warm, then i play a serie of etudes, break, second main piece, support etude/break, main piece, supporting etude/break, first main piece, second main piece.

Ofcourse i dont do it as strictly as above, but you shouldnt hammer on certain parts too long, you have to realise that your brains need time to addapt. And playing diversity makes it easier to play long.

gyzzzmo

That's a good idea. I don't have too many etudes right now unfortunately, so I might work on a few of those.

Right now I usually work on major/minor scales and diminished and dominant 7th arpeggios for about a half an hour. Then I alternate between the 3 pieces I'm working on, usually putting a lot more time into the piano concerto since it is a lot more difficult. I also am trying to include some time for reviewing other repertoire, since all of my repertoire is in memory and I don't want to forget it.

[gyzzzmo]

Watch your own playing closely and try to find out what your technical flaws are. Then go find a nice etude wich handles that flaw, that way you'll get a nice etude repetoire wich is actually usefull

[pianoperformer]

Watch your own playing closely and try to find out what your technical flaws are. Then go find a nice etude wich handles that flaw, that way you'll get a nice etude repetoire wich is actually usefull

Yes, good idea. I will ask my piano teacher tomorrow. Maybe I will have time to do an etude or do alongside my three pieces.

My biggest problems right now are fast multi-octave arpeggios, and octave runs.

[Essyne]

You don't think I know how tough it is? I do. Why do you see the need to keep putting me down though, when you know nothing of my talent? What makes you think I have little or no talent? If you are going to keep insulting me, please quit replying to my posts.

My post is purely psychological, but I felt impelled to address this topic.

I can relate to this comment quite a bit, actually. I have had some of the brightest voice professors in the world look at me and tell me for 30 minutes to an hour just how hard making Performance a career is going to be. Yes, they were trying to demotivate me and send me home crying - but the funny thing is - I never realized that that's what they were trying to do until my parents told me. I walked out of those offices with the biggest, brightest, most radiant smile on my face, exclaiming, "I am more inspired than I have ever been. I know that I can DO this. Now I only have 2 years, so let's WORK."

You must first and foremost believe in your Passion for the Musical Craft - not you, not the technique. What YOU are passionate about will manifest itself in your playing/performance/whatever. (To make a quick concession, I'm not arguing that you should throw your technique out the window (because that would be quite the unintelligible argument, as we all know) but I'm only saying that your Drive and Dedication to the Music is what will make or break you in this industry). Music has to be your True Love - your Anam Cara - and nothing, my friend will stand in your way because with Love, Passion, and Dedication, you will make it happen.

Best of Luck.

~Ess~

[slobone]

I don't recollect if this has been mentioned yet -- but if you still have 3 years to go at university, make sure you're studying with the best, or at least best-known or best-connected, teacher. Then do exactly what he/she says. Certainly including whether you're practicing the right number of hours.

If you're serious about a career, don't make any decisions based on what you read on an Internet forum! Even though there are some very knowledgeable and talented people here. But you may have noticed that they don't necessarily agree with each other...

[pianoperformer]

I don't recollect if this has been mentioned yet -- but if you still have 3 years to go at university, make sure you're studying with the best, or at least best-known or best-connected, teacher. Then do exactly what he/she says. Certainly including whether you're practicing the right number of hours.

I do have the best in the university. Everyone says how tough and exacting she is.

The number of hours is the trouble. she demands what the music school demands—3 hours. But I don't believe that is enough. I mean, I just heard of a 15-year-old the other day who practices 7-9 hours. Yeah, I never did that. I have some catching up to do, I think.

If you're serious about a career, don't make any decisions based on what you read on an Internet forum! Even though there are some very knowledgeable and talented people here. But you may have noticed that they don't necessarily agree with each other...

Very true. But I don't know who to ask for now. I will ask my piano teacher when I go back to college. I really know nothing about her, as she's not really very personable, so I don't know how extensive her knowledge is on this.

[gyzzzmo]

Those 3 hours theyre mentioning are 'AT LEAST' 3 hours. If you want to make a career of piano playing it should be at least 6 hours.

Btw, if you're searching etudes to fill that first block of your day, a combination of Hanon's 'virtuoso pianist in 60 exercises' (part 2 and 3) and maybe some Liszt technical etudes would be a good option.

gl, gyzzzmo

[pianoperformer]

Those 3 hours theyre mentioning are 'AT LEAST' 3 hours. If you want to make a career of piano playing it should be at least 6 hours.

Btw, if you're searching etudes to fill that first block of your day, a combination of Hanon's 'virtuoso pianist in 60 exercises' (part 2 and 3) and maybe some Liszt technical etudes would be a good option.

gl, gyzzzmo

Thanks  alot. Well, I did 5 hours yesterday; I'm still increasing gradually. I'm starting to pay more attention to smaller details of my playing, and when I do that it really does take a lot of time, so I'm thinking that'll help me practice for longer as well.

I'm setting an ultimate goal of about 8 hours. I think that I can do that both over the summer, as well as squeeze that into my schedule next semester if I finish at about midnight or 1:00 daily. That still leaves me an hour or two for studying for other classes. What do you think?

Also, what is your opinion on doing less time on the weekends? I don't want to get burned out, either, so I'm thinking of either doing less time on weekends, or taking a day off every so often.

[gyzzzmo]

Ofcourse you relax in the weekend because
a) you need to relax
b) your brains need time to mature/fantasise
c) you dont want to become like an azian pianist.

[pianoperformer]

Ofcourse you relax in the weekend because
a) you need to relax
b) your brains need time to mature/fantasise
c) you dont want to become like an azian pianist.

Lol, good point. But then, how much to do on the weekends? Say 2.5 hours per day? Or...I don't know.

What do you mean by C?

[gyzzzmo]

Lol, good point. But then, how much to do on the weekends? Say 2.5 hours per day? Or...I don't know.

What do you mean by C?

If you want to do something fun on your saturday/sunday, go do it. Dont bother studying because 'you have to study'. With 'C' i ment that you shouldnt become some technicoholic. Too much pianoplaying isnt good either.

[pianoperformer]

If you want to do something fun on your saturday/sunday, go do it. Dont bother studying because 'you have to study'. With 'C' i ment that you shouldnt become some technicoholic. Too much pianoplaying isnt good either.

I see. But surely I should still practice some on the weekends. Even if I go out and try to have a social life those days, there are still some hours left in the day. Are you saying just do what I can those days and don't worry about it?

[gyzzzmo]

I see. But surely I should still practice some on the weekends. Even if I go out and try to have a social life those days, there are still some hours left in the day. Are you saying just do what I can those days and don't worry about it?

Just do what you want to do in the weekend, except for basketball or other finger injuring sports maybe :p

[pianoperformer]

Just do what you want to do in the weekend, except for basketball or other finger injuring sports maybe :p

I know, but what I'm still not clear on is whether you think I should practice at all those days.

[danny elfboy]

I’ve been playing the piano since five years old, and I am now 19 and major in piano performance at Duquesne University.

I’m confused about how much I should practice, though. Three hours is a minimum requirement at the university, but I don’t feel like that’s enough. I’ve been doing around 4 hours lately, but I’m still not sure

It's not a matter of how much but of how.
Efficient practice allows you to learn more in less time.
And even if sometimes you feel like your hours weren't enough, increasing the time you spend practicing doesn't exponentially translate in more learned. Sometimes, because of three concepts called Central Nervous Fatigue, Information Overload and Post Practice Improvement the opposite is true; the more you insist on adding extra practice time in the hope the result you didn't like in the hope you'll learn more ... the more you might learn less and unlearn more.

[pianoperformer]

It's not a matter of how much but of how.
Efficient practice allows you to learn more in less time.
And even if sometimes you feel like your hours weren't enough, increasing the time you spend practicing doesn't exponentially translate in more learned. Sometimes, because of three concepts called Central Nervous Fatigue, Information Overload and Post Practice Improvement the opposite is true; the more you insist on adding extra practice time in the hope the result you didn't like in the hope you'll learn more ... the more you might learn less l,and unlearn more.

Every time I think I have a grasp on what I need to do, I'm told something different that conflicts with my whole plan.

So, then, how do I know how much is the right amount? I think it is both how and how much, so I want to balance those. I mean, even if you are the most efficient person in the world, only so many things can get done in a given amount of time.

So, how do I avoid this horrible possibility of unlearning?

So many different ideas, I don't know what to do.

Well, I was happily about to practice as much as I could until that comment.

Now I need clarification and advice.

[danny elfboy]

Every time I think I have a grasp on what I need to do, I'm told something different that conflicts with my whole plan.

So, then, how do I know how much is the right amount? I think it is both how and how much, so I want to balance those. I mean, even if you are the most efficient person in the world, only so many things can get done in a given amount of time.

So, how do I avoid this horrible possibility of unlearning?

So many different ideas, I don't know what to do.

Well, I was happily about to practice as much as I could until that comment.

Now I need clarification and advice.

Example of uneffective learning and underlearning:
Studied first 2 pages of X piece for 90 minutes. Still not good. Add two extra hours. Take some rest. Fingerst are still sloppy, memorization not good and many problems. Add another two hours. Ending the day thinking if ony there were 60 hours in a day you'd play those two pages perfectly.

Example of effective learning:
Determined the 4 passages that are the only struggle of 2 pages of X piece. Practicing those passage a bit. Determining the problem (speed, memorization, coordination, fingers) and use appropriate way to overcome it. After 40 minutes the 4 passages are still not as good as you want. Forget about them! They will improve at night after a good mind processing. Time to move to those 4 pages of Z piece I have been struggling for week.Determined the 7 passages that are the only struggle of the 4 pages. Another 60 minutes of practice but not only they're not as good as you'd like them to be, you realize that you could have reached the same proficency in playing these passages practicing them 30 minutes. Don't make the same mistake next time. Forget those pages and get back at them tomorrow. Time to practice the intepretation of a whole piece. After playing once through it you're not satisfied with the result. Forget about it and practice another whole piece ...

As you can see the rules to not abuse CNF and make the most out of your time are:

practicing only what needs to be practiced
varying the things you practice
if you paid attention to a problem and it is not solved, practicing more won't help
waiting the next day for your work to give its fruits

In other words: more things and varied/alternatied practicing means in a less amount of time rather than few things in same identical practice repeated over and over for a huge amount of time.

[pianoperformer]

I see, and somewhat agree.

Today, I spent about an hour and a half on technique, an hour on reviewing old repertoire and trying to improve a certain English Suite prelude, an hour and a half on this easier piece (a prelude and fugue), and 3 hours on the piano concerto I'm learning.

But on the concerto, I practiced specific sections. If there were parts I had trouble with, I focused on those sections, and tried to cut out as small of a portion as possible so I could keep going over it to improve it. After about 10-20 minutes I moved onto something else—another section or piece. I did later focus on some of the same sections, but they were later in the day. An hour of all of this was just learning and memorizing the rest of that prelude. The other half an hour that I practiced the same was trying to play what I knew without mistakes at 80 beats per minute.

I might still put another 30-45 minutes on ear training.

So, do you think this is bad? Is it too much? Do you recommend any maximum time, or, how can one determine the proper amount of time?

I don't want to do so much that it will be detrimental, but also don't want to do too little.

I appreciate the suggestions.

[danny elfboy]

So, do you think this is bad? Is it too much? Do you recommend any maximum time, or, how can one determine the proper amount of time?

I don't want to do so much that it will be detrimental, but also don't want to do too little.

I appreciate the suggestions.

There no specific amout of time. Rule number one is to never spend to much time on a specific thing. And this applies to whatever kind of studies. Reading chapter 10 of history textbook 10 times is not better than reading it 3 times. So as long as you focus on many different aspects that do need to be improved and learned (repeating a whole piece over and over is practicing 80% of what you already know and mastered and is useless) you can devote good amount of time to it. You determine the proper amount of time when you notice your learning ability are fading, you have difficulties focusing, don't remember things and start to confuse old knowledge with the stuff you're currently practicing. That's your threshold and it's like pain for exercise, you don't exercise through pain is just retarted (even if there are people who do it).

[slobone]

It sounds like you're making pretty good use of your time. I agree with danny elfboy that you should narrow your focus when you're fixing a technical problem -- no use playing the same 4 measures over and over when the tricky part is in the third measure!

But I do think that you need to spend time working on the overall shape of the piece. This is the hard part for many students because it doesn't seem as concrete. But you need to decide things like, when this section gets repeated, do I do it louder or softer? When a phrase is echoed later on, do I give it the same shape as the first time? How am I going to manage rubato? Where do I add dims and crescs and rits and accels that aren't in the score? Where are the climaxes in the movement, and how do I build up to them? How long should I hold a fermata? None of these can be decided by practicing short passages in isolation.

The important thing, of course, is not to waste time by playing through the whole piece the same way every time. You should always pay as much attention, or more, as you did when you were learning it, and always trying to solve a specific problem.

[pianoperformer]

It sounds like you're making pretty good use of your time. I agree with danny elfboy that you should narrow your focus when you're fixing a technical problem -- no use playing the same 4 measures over and over when the tricky part is in the third measure!

True, and I've been working on this. Sometimes I isolate a very specific section, even just a beat or two, and sometimes I play through an entire section to work on putting it all together and see what else needs work.

But I do think that you need to spend time working on the overall shape of the piece. This is the hard part for many students because it doesn't seem as concrete. But you need to decide things like, when this section gets repeated, do I do it louder or softer? When a phrase is echoed later on, do I give it the same shape as the first time? How am I going to manage rubato? Where do I add dims and crescs and rits and accels that aren't in the score? Where are the climaxes in the movement, and how do I build up to them? How long should I hold a fermata? None of these can be decided by practicing short passages in isolation.

The important thing, of course, is not to waste time by playing through the whole piece the same way every time. You should always pay as much attention, or more, as you did when you were learning it, and always trying to solve a specific problem.

Interesting. I actually think I'm already decent at this. I've been practicing this concerto a lot, and I've been noticing that my interpretation of it lately has been better than in the past.

Here's another question. Let's say you have a passage that's giving you a lot of trouble. You work on it for days or weeks, and finally start to see improvement. Now for the last several days it has not given you any trouble at all. do you still work on it to make sure it is OK? When do you stop focusing on that part?

Someone told me four hours would be enough. However, I'm finding that it is not enough to do all I want to do, which usually includes technique, sometimes ear training, review of old repertoire and sometimes trying to improve it, plus working on at least two pieces per day. I find that I can't seriously do all that with much less than 5 hours. I only did 4 hours yesterday, but didn't do all the technique work I wanted to do.

But, I think instead of focusing so much on time, I will focus on what I want to get done that day. I will shoot for 5-6 hours during the week, but won't worry about it too much if I only get 3-4. I also think I may take it a little bit easier on the weekends, shootting for 2-3 hours. Does this seem OK?

[slobone]

Also, change up your routine. When practicing a particular passage, do it "too slow" for a while, then try "too fast", even if it means you make mistakes. Sometimes if you repeat several times at a fast tempo, the mistakes fix themselves.

Also try hands separately as well as hands together. Or pianissimo, then fortissimo. Or staccato and legato. Or "swing" the rhythm. Not to mention doing scale passages in groups of 2's, 3's, and 4's, as we've discussed elsewhere. Anything to keep your brain alert -- paying attention is half the battle.

And don't necessarily ignore phrasing ideas during the learning phase. Sometimes when I'm having trouble with a stubborn passage, I try playing it melodically -- with all the right notes accented and so forth, and it actually gets easier to play.