About Chinese pianists

[steven_957728]

Hi everyone, what's your opinions about Chinese pianist Lang Lang and Yundi Li? Let's discuss!

[tds]

both lang li and yundi lang are good

[s1d1f1]

tThey are great.
I think tht they are not just technical machines,as people say for them,as a mather,i think they could be some of the best pianists of today....
I personaly realy love Lang lang...

[samuelfoo]

Both of them are very well and excellent!
Lang Lang mostly play Franz Liszt 's pieces
and Yun Di mostly play Chopin 's pieces .

But I want to say in here Li Yun Di is more better than Lang Lang.
You can see their piano video at www.youtube.com

[retrouvailles]

Both of them are awful. Lang Lang has the oddest and most sacrilegious musicianship. Yundi Li has some of the most unassertive and bland playing I have ever heard. They both have good technique, but don't know how to use it. Avoid at all costs.

[rachfan]

As painfully hard as he tries, Lang Lang will never succeed in replacing Liberace.

[indutrial]

They're the lifeless prog-metal of classical musicians and China is as good at cranking out risk-free virtuosos as northern Europe is at cranking out horrible metal bands. All technique and by-the-book cleanliness...no soul, individuality, or creativity. I have Yundi Li's Liszt disc and I almost never listen to it. I heard part of his Prokofiev concerto on the local college radio and it too was way too safe and surgical. The playing is very impressive, but I'd rather sacrifice a small amount of technical precision for some more personality in the music.

Beyond that, Li's and Lang's repertoires are completely unadventurous. A whole bunch of romanticism imitating and little else. We don't need any more Chopin, Liszt, and Rachmaninov recordings!!! We also don't need any hideously backwards musical shitheaps like that horrible Yellow River Concerto, which sounds about as artistically forced upon poor Chinese musicians as the political regime's slogans are forced on the poor Chinese populace.

I'm convinced that China has way more to offer than those soulless showboats. It's a shame their inhuman government will never allow any truely individual art to thrive. Thankfully, every now and then someone manages to get the hell out of there and do great things in Europe or the States.

[retrouvailles]

Beyond that, Li's and Lang's repertoires are completely unadventurous. A whole bunch of romanticism imitating and little else. We don't need any more Chopin, Liszt, and Rachmaninov recordings!!!

Sadly that applies to most pianists today, professional or otherwise. It is a rampant disease it seems. And AMEN to your third statement.

[Petter]

Does a post colonization inferior complex exist in art (or at all)? Maybe that´s what they suffer from if what you say is true. But apparently Lang Lang has gotten millions of chinese to play the piano, which is quite remarkable and interesting for the future.
 I also heard of a chinese rapper called "Crazy sh*t". They are quite ingenious at times.

[Petter]

What an embarrassing selfquote, I have been sabotaged.

[kiwi_bd]

They're the lifeless prog-metal of classical musicians and China is as good at cranking out risk-free virtuosos as northern Europe is at cranking out horrible metal bands. All technique and by-the-book cleanliness...no soul, individuality, or creativity. I have Yundi Li's Liszt disc and I almost never listen to it. I heard part of his Prokofiev concerto on the local college radio and it too was way too safe and surgical. The playing is very impressive, but I'd rather sacrifice a small amount of technical precision for some more personality in the music.

Beyond that, Li's and Lang's repertoires are completely unadventurous. A whole bunch of romanticism imitating and little else. We don't need any more Chopin, Liszt, and Rachmaninov recordings!!! We also don't need any hideously backwards musical shitheaps like that horrible Yellow River Concerto, which sounds about as artistically forced upon poor Chinese musicians as the political regime's slogans are forced on the poor Chinese populace.

I'm convinced that China has way more to offer than those soulless showboats. It's a shame their inhuman government will never allow any truely individual art to thrive. Thankfully, every now and then someone manages to get the hell out of there and do great things in Europe or the States.

actually it has definitely nothing to do with their nationality...

[gyzzzmo]

I actually like the way how Yundi Li plays many things, especially how he plays La Campanella. I dont know if i ever heard better recordings (to my opinion).

About Lang Lang... Great technique but musically.... few things i heard of him i like. But i wouldnt be suprised at all if Franz Liszt had the same frantic way of playing, or is that blasphemy? :p

[rene_ceballos]

Lang Lang is outstanding.

I recall only a handful of pianists I really enjoyed watching performances at that age. He just needs to reach 40+ and stop doing those out-of-the-book movements and facial gestures to stop irritating some folks. I particularly sympathize with his hyper-enthusiastic, somehow rebel attitude though. It must have been really needed to achieve his level coming from where he does.

Yundi Li, I haven't heard much of him unfortunately but what I've heard has impressed me more technically than musically. I bet he has also loads of potential yet.

[mephisto]

I feind Yundi Li to be one of the best young lviing pianist. His Liszt is definetly impressive.

[thalbergmad]

Great fingers, no soul.

Thal

[indutrial]

Lang Lang is outstanding.

I recall only a handful of pianists I really enjoyed watching performances at that age. He just needs to reach 40+ and stop doing those out-of-the-book movements and facial gestures to stop irritating some folks. I particularly sympathize with his hyper-enthusiastic, somehow rebel attitude though. It must have been really needed to achieve his level coming from where he does.

If he's a rebel, why doesn't he rebel against putting out the same tired repertoire that has been played again and again and again and actually promote something new. Most of my interaction with Lang Lang's work has been from a listening point of view, so I've little to say about the gestures, etc... What I can say is that he definitely does nothing to recast the pieces he takes on and it's annoying to watch people deck him out with so much empty hype about "brilliance" and "genius." Wow, he can play better than you can. Get over it! Like I said before, it's about the same as when rock guitarists swoon over Yngwie Malmsteen or John Petrucci just because they can rip fast chromatic runs and rail through harmonic minor sweeps faster than other guitarists. Okay, great... Does any of that explain why neither of them have come up with any riffs that might actually be slightly memorable? Why lesser-known guitarists with less than half of their finger abilities are somehow coming up with more creative ideas... I'll stick with pianists and other musicians who aren't sucking on the teet of the dull-witted establishment so hard.

On Li's Liszt disc, the only piece he seems to really nail is the Campanella, and probably because it's a technique etude. The problem is that he brings the same cold approach to everything else he attempts, including and especially the Sonata.

[tompilk]

i definitely prefer yundi li, by a long way.
Talking about chinese piansts - I've just booked accommodation and flights for the first two weeks of La Roque de Antheon (yay! - 18th birthday pressie) and I see Dang Thai Son is playing. I'll go to see him anyway, but anyone know if he's any good or not?

[tds]

I see Dang Thai Son is playing. I'll go to see him anyway, but anyone know if he's any good or not?

heard his marvelous...tell us all bout it when ur back

[rene_ceballos]

If he's a rebel, why doesn't he rebel against putting out the same tired repertoire that has been played again and again and again and actually promote something new.

I think he does. I haven't hear any other pianist including as many eastern compositions as Lang Lang. Additionally, many of his takes on the 'standard' repertoire (I wouldn't dare to call 'tired' a Rach concerto or Liszt work myself) are really fresh. Some of those, *too* fresh to me.

Wow, he can play better than you can. Get over it!

Well, there's a couple of other folks who can do that, too. Yet I seem to dislike their music. I don't think this is the case.

I'll stick with pianists and other musicians who aren't sucking on the teet of the dull-witted establishment so hard.

Good for you. Diversity is bliss.

[remy]

I don't understand why Lang Lang thinks that playing with feeling means faking an orgasm at the piano.

Even Liberace would have been embarrassed.


remy

[thalbergmad]

Lang Lang's movements reminds me of a "Thunderbirds" puppet.

I actually prefer Liberace.

Thal

[hodi]

can they play bach , beethoven or mozart ?

[thalbergmad]

No, but neither can Lang Lang.

Thal

[retrouvailles]

I don't understand why Lang Lang thinks that playing with feeling means faking an orgasm at the piano.

Lang Lang and Yundi Li overcompensate with their facial and other physical expressions at the piano because they cannot adequately and properly express themselves emotionally in the music they play.

[bach1685]

I really like Yundi Li playing, especially when playing pieces by chopin which he does so often. He was after all the first Chinese piano player to win the international Chopin competition at the age of 18!

Lang Lang for me lacks a lot of emotional content in the way he plays. There is no doubt that he has an amazing technique, but I think there are more important aspects classical piano playing such as phrasing, interpretation and feeling. 

[rene_ceballos]

It's refreshing to see how different can be two observations on same aspect. I for instance, believe that Lang Lang excels in his performances on relatively simple interpretations.
He has really moved me when I saw him live performing Traumerei or Lieberstraume. He figured to get piano colors in those which I never heard by anyone else, nor imagined doing it myself after playing those thousands of times, for many years. Exquisite phrasing.

I was really impressed by his technique in Liszt (Don Giovanni), yet I have heard him play sloppyly as well (Bumblebee). I, for instance, am more impressed by Lisitsa's technique than Lang Lang.

He's not an ideal, target-to-follow pianist for me (Hamelin is, fwiw). Yet, it bothers me that many teachers criticize him just because he departs from 'standard behavior on the piano'. Many of the critics come from people who haven't even heard him or seem him performing.

[gyzzzmo]

Lang Lang and Yundi Li overcompensate with their facial and other physical expressions at the piano because they cannot adequately and properly express themselves emotionally in the music they play.

Theres quite a difference between Lang and Li in facial/physical/musical expression. Maybe you should watch/hear them play before you reply? 

[retrouvailles]

Theres quite a difference between Lang and Li in facial/physical/musical expression. Maybe you should watch/hear them play before you reply? 

I have heard and seen plenty of them and I know there is a difference. Actually, I think I have seen and heard too much of them. Both of them make me sick and I don't want to hear anymore of those two. I would rather spend my time listening to pianists that actually have value towards furthering the greater good of music. Now don't talk down to me again as if I were an idiot.

[thierry13]

Dang Thai Son is playing. I'll go to see him anyway, but anyone know if he's any good or not?

I think he's amazing. He's teaching at the university where I'll be studying next year 

[Kassaa]

It's refreshing to see how different can be two observations on same aspect. I for instance, believe that Lang Lang excels in his performances on relatively simple interpretations.
He has really moved me when I saw him live performing Traumerei or Lieberstraume. He figured to get piano colors in those which I never heard by anyone else, nor imagined doing it myself after playing those thousands of times, for many years. Exquisite phrasing.

Lol, his whole Kinderszenen is one big musical colorless fart and is NON-EXISTANT next to Horowitz or Haskil. (And yes I heard him live, sadly enough.)

[tds]

..one big musical colorless fart..

crunchy!

[opus10no2]

If he's a rebel, why doesn't he rebel against putting out the same tired repertoire that has been played again and again and again and actually promote something new. Most of my interaction with Lang Lang's work has been from a listening point of view, so I've little to say about the gestures, etc... What I can say is that he definitely does nothing to recast the pieces he takes on and it's annoying to watch people deck him out with so much empty hype about "brilliance" and "genius." Wow, he can play better than you can. Get over it! Like I said before, it's about the same as when rock guitarists swoon over Yngwie Malmsteen or John Petrucci just because they can rip fast chromatic runs and rail through harmonic minor sweeps faster than other guitarists. Okay, great... Does any of that explain why neither of them have come up with any riffs that might actually be slightly memorable? Why lesser-known guitarists with less than half of their finger abilities are somehow coming up with more creative ideas... I'll stick with pianists and other musicians who aren't sucking on the teet of the dull-witted establishment so hard.

On Li's Liszt disc, the only piece he seems to really nail is the Campanella, and probably because it's a technique etude. The problem is that he brings the same cold approach to everything else he attempts, including and especially the Sonata.

To me it's like comparing personality and looks.

Sure, the slow, 'musical' pianist might have a nice personality, a caring attitude and a loving heart, but Lang Lang and Yundi Li have the seductive looks, the charisma, and the marvelously toned butts.

Go cry to mommy and ask her why the girls call you ugly and wont kiss you. She will assure you that there will be some fat ugly bald chick out there who will take pity upon you and appreciate your soulful musical personality. 

[indutrial]

To me it's like comparing personality and looks.

Sure, the slow, 'musical' pianist might have a nice personality, a caring attitude and a loving heart, but Lang Lang and Yundi Li have the seductive looks, the charisma, and the marvelously toned butts.

Go cry to mommy and ask her why the girls call you ugly and wont kiss you. She will assure you that there will be some fat ugly bald chick out there who will take pity upon you and appreciate your soulful musical personality. 

Why don't you stick with your "who annoys you the most" thread. Last I checked the verdict there was that everyone found you to be the most annoying person on the forum. Whatever in the world the post above is supposed to be seems to be proof positive that they are 100% correct in that assessment.

[opus10no2]

Annoyance and envy go hand in hand.

I actually didn't see that topic.

[solesoccidere]

I recently got the chance to see Yundi Li live through my school. I had never heard of him before.

I was disappointed by the number of crowd-pleasing, even-people-who-don't-know-classical-music-know-these pieces on the program (noct 9/2, grand polonaise, etc). I was also quite taken aback by his pedaling technique--harsh and rather like a person driving a car slamming suddenly on the brakes.

Besides that, I found his tempos to be slightly fast and his Chopin to be a bit brutish. But his rendition of Pictures was amazing. It was colorful, exciting, and skillfully executed.

I have since found his recordings to be a mixed bag.

I was, however, amused at the number of asian girls about my age and asian families at the concert, since I live in a relatively homogenously white area with a strong black minority...for once, I felt like I fit in instead of standing out...

By the way, hi, I have been lurking but I thought I'd actually post for once.

[thierry13]

Annoyance and envy go hand in hand.

I actually didn't see that topic.

Will you, please, for once, explain us WHAT can you possibly think people envy from you ?

[zhfmusic]

Hi everyone, what's your opinions about Chinese pianist Lang Lang and Yundi Li? Let's discuss!

     Yundi  Li  is  good!

[opus10no2]

Will you, please, for once, explain us WHAT can you possibly think people envy from you ?

I don't have time to list everything, it should be obvious.

[thierry13]

I don't have time to list everything, it should be obvious.

Well, I sure envy you for seeing the list as "obvious" when everybody else see absolutely nothing! You are truly exceptional.

[invictious]

Chinese pianists aren't raised the way like the Western culture. They are literally beaten (whipped) if they don't play something well. Obviously these happen to the best of the best teachers (yes, no mistake) and not to less serious learners. So improve rapidly and acquire great technical proficiency, but they were never trained on the way of interpreting pieces personally.

Lang Lang and Yundi are outstanding because they are able to extrapolate truly unique interpretations. I really prefer Yundi over Lang Lang, because when I listen to his playing, I just feel that I am always hooked to the piece, whereas listening to Lang Lang causes me to lose my attention when listening to specific parts.

Taking Liebestraum for example, when listening to Yundi, I am listening to the whole piece intently, but with Lang Lang, I just find myself straying off all the time.

Obviously I've never went through the beatings and all that, but I do know what I am talking about.

[daniloperusina]

In Sweden we have an expression that translates something like "taste is like the..."hmm..'rounded part of the hindquarters of a quadruped mammal'..(webster's online dictionary); "..divided in two." My translation doesn't seem to get the rhyme in place, unfortunately.

Ronald Stevenson, the composer and pianist, had a masterclass at my conservatoire when I was a student. He blamed what he thought of as the decline in composition ("in the 20th century an 80 year old composition is bizarrely considered 'modern music'") on that it has forgot about the art of singing. Someone mentioned something along the line that it's not the Chinese, it's the whole generation of current pianists. I happen to beleive that to find someone who is able to make the piano (or rather, the music) truly sing is extremely rare. About as rare as finding people who actually seem to have a deep understanding of this particular aspect of music-making. One that I do think is a genius piano-singer is Fu T'song, a chinese (I beleive).

I have watched and listened a bit to Lang-Lang; in my opinion he has all the expression in his face and body, and none in the actual sound that he produces. If I was to show someone the opposite, I'd say look at Rubinstein playing Schubert Impromptu on youtube. He is as still as a tree-trunk, but what noble musical phrases is he pouring out from those old fingers!
Horowitz is an even better example! The huge dynamic range, the colours, the unbeleivable bel-canto phrases, and he hardly raises his hands from the keyboard!

Ivo Pogorelich doesn't move.
Claudio Arrau doesn't move.
A-B Michelangeli doesn't move.
Wilhelm Kempff doesn't move.
Krystian Zimerman doesn't move.
Radu Lupu doesn't move
etc etc

In fact, it's a common factor among many great pianists that they don't move their body around a lot. In fact, if you move around too much when you play, try this experiment: have a section of a piece you know well with a dramatic change in dynamics etc. Concentrate on sitting absolutely still with no tension building up anywhere (shoulders, legs etc). Then play and, feeling like a statue, put 100% of your attention on the sounds that you produce. It can be fascinating..

Hats off to Lang Lang though, for not only playing warhorses, but actually using his popularity and inluence to promoting new works and other good things!

[slobone]

Yes, and painting has declined ever since artists stopped painting trees that really looked like trees... instead of all these ugly Van Goghs and Matisses...

I blame the purveyors of classical music, first, and audiences second for not wanting to find out for themselves which 20th century music is truly great and which is junk. When was the last time you heard your local classical FM station play a piece by Berg or Webern? (Not counting live orchestra broadcasts.) How many new operas has the Metropolitan Opera commissioned in the last 30 years (you won't need 2 hands to count them)?

Even concert pianists shy away from this repertoire -- it's as though Prokofiev was as far as they wanted to go (except for the occasional Bartok concerto). Do music schools steer them away from the really daring stuff, or do they make that decision on their own?

As for "singing", yes, the piano can sing -- and it's glorious when it's done well. But it can also thump, bang, growl, screech, cough, fart, etc. etc. Try singing the opening bars of the Waldstein, or Bach's C minor prelude. If singing were the only important thing, music would still be limited to the motet and the madrigal.

Modern music is difficult -- you're not going to get it the first time you hear it. But if you stay with it you will learn to hear the profound musical beauty behind all that dissonance.

[rene_ceballos]

Ivo Pogorelich doesn't move.
Claudio Arrau doesn't move.
A-B Michelangeli doesn't move.
Wilhelm Kempff doesn't move.
Krystian Zimerman doesn't move.
Radu Lupu doesn't move

That's a very interesting observation. One which rises the following question, though: *why* they don't move?

My own answer to that is, because establishment doesn't want them to, not because they don't feel like. That one is almost enough for me to defend him, even when I don't particularly like the movements, no.

If you have a chance, find a video recording of Horowitz playing Mozart's concerto 23. He's not there to play in a public performance, only for the recording. You will see him hyperkinetic, doing all kind of body movements, facial gestures and even stealing part of the orchestra direction from the actual director. He's all the time playing jokes to the page turner. He makes Lang Lang look like a piece of wood. My take to that is, "I'm free here, not needing to look as they want me to...".

[daniloperusina]

"because establishment doesn't want them to"
This is naive. There has never been a more "establishment" pianist than Lang Lang. Wherever he goes, a whole army of pr-agents, managers, publicists, stylists, record-company representatives follow him. They make sure that when Lang Lang comes to a concert hall near you, you will know about it through newspaper articles, radioprograms and popular sitcoms on TV. They will tell you that he is the new Horowitz as well as the new Richter, and to convince you about how much emotion there is in his playing they order the camera crew to zoom in on his face, at which cue Lang Lang demostrates an astonishing range of grimacing pyrotechnics. And musical idiots love it. A small group of the circus company is all the while monitoring record sales, and can confirm:"Yup, post "grimacing-on-the-TV", record sales went up 1000%, and the remaining 400 hundred seats in the auditorium sold out within 5 minutes." 

Two weeks later Radu Lupu is coming to town, and media is dead silent.

You see, media is concerned about their viewer/reader ratings. If people find a Martha Argerich performance boring to look at, they switch channels. Television executives take note and do not show her again. If someone is a genius but doesn't sell, he/she will be dropped from the lime-light. If your not a genius but sell, you will be the darling of the industry. Lang Lang is not a genius. He is very virtuosic and can hold his own in any concert hall in the world. As a musician he is mediocre at best. But he sells very well, so well actually that you can invest money in him and make a profit. Which is what the industry is doing, and which is why you see so much of him.

The bottom line is, Lang Lang is the world's most famous pianist, perhaps the currently most famous classical artist of all, but his talent is not on a par with his fame.

[rene_ceballos]

This is naive. There has never been a more "establishment" pianist than Lang Lang.

Well, that just means you didn't get my point. "Establishment" can't be anyone who works for you, by definition. Including producers, publishers and all kind of propaganda.

It's basically everyone else, including the bitrigazillion critics who feel tradition is being broken by his facial gestures, body movements, and <cough> the simple fact they can't accept that he's good and Chinese, two things who shouldn't be in same sentence.

Artistry in pair with fame... I don't know about that, but probably he's in better shape than Britney Spears. I don't care, either.

[tds]

....the bitrigazillion....

like...soooooo...omg! omg!!!

[daniloperusina]

His facial expressions and body movements are not breaking any traditions.
The tradition of using dramatic or sentimental physical gestures date back to the very founder of 'the piano recital', Franz Liszt, who probably wanted to emulate Paganini.

Paganini introduced aspects to the concert which were pricipally unheard of then, but has since become a crucial aspect of especially rock and pop performances:
*he was interesting to look at
*he surprised/entertained/impressed his audience with various tricks and gimmicks

One such gimmick was the famous G-string trick: one after one the strings would break until only the g-string was left, but paganini just kept on playing the very difficult piece, first on three, then two, and finally on only one string, and the audience was left gasping at his unbeleivable skill.

And Liszt, as said, watched and learned..

As the 19th century drew to a close, this sort of behaviour seem to have become more and more antiquated, and by, say, 1950 it was totally obsolete. The only pianist after that who became as famous for his stage behaviour as for his playing was of course Glenn Gould.

Therefore, to say that Lang Lang is breaking tradition by his stage antics is incorrect. Everyone in what you call The Establishment knows exactly what he is doing, it's just that it's passé by about 150 years...

Yes, there are jokes related to him being Chinese, for example: "Lang Lang, a pianist so good they named him twice..", which could be argued to be a bit racist. And perhaps whe have come to the point where it's almost a cliché to see five year old chinese prodigies performing Chopin etudes. Before them there seemed to be a never ending stream of russians. But there are still so many well established prominent musicians with eastern asian backgrounds that your claim that critics can't accept that he's good and chinese has no validity:
Fou T'song
Mitsuko Uchida
Seiji Ozawa
Sarah Chang
Myung Wa Chung
Midori
Yo Yo Ma
Melvyn Tan
to name a few..

The controversy is about the quality of his interpretations versus the way he is being promoted. Every ten years or so, the industry seems to find a budding 'superstar' on the piano, and heavy promotion follows. 1980 it was Ivo Pogorelich, 1990 Yevgeni Kissin and 2000 Lang Lang.

In this thread he has been likened to a rebel, and is said to be 'breaking traditions'. I listen to his playing and hear nothing out of the ordinary. I repeat that, it's ordinary! That is to say, he plays similarly to a bitrigazillion other technically gifted pianists. Maybe that's why the critics aren't very excited (as opposed to what you seem to imply, that they are shocked by this revolutionary new approach that they can't understand, old-school as they are). I, and they, I suppose, hear this sort of playing on every sunday-afternoon-tea-concert, and are therefore overwhelmingly bored by the sheer blandness of it.

And this they have the nerve to call "The new Horowitz..."

[slobone]

Yes, there are jokes related to him being Chinese, for example: "Lang Lang, a pianist so good they named him twice..", which could be argued to be a bit racist.

Well yeah, what about that? I had the impression that in China, you never had the same first name and last name unless you were a panda. Can anybody enlighten me about this?

[tds]

................bitrigazillion ..................................

 

[rene_ceballos]

I listen to his playing and hear nothing out of the ordinary. I repeat that, it's ordinary! That is to say, he plays similarly to a bitrigazillion other technically gifted pianists.

I respect that opinion very much. Others have raised similar opinions previously in the forum, in other forums, critics, etc.

I just completely disagree. The disagreement isn't innatural: people used to disagree about Horowitz, too. I bet some still do. Some people wouldn't consider Liszt a serious composer. Some people won't think Jazz is good music.
I don't think there are conclusive, good-for-human-kind positions to any of those. It's amusing to share diversity.