Difficult Students

[meli]

Hi, I have recently started teaching a young girl, aged 11. She has been through many teachers before, and is still at beginner level! I got a shock when I first started teaching her, she is quite a slow learner, and is not afraid to misbehave during lesson. She doesn't like to count while playing, and always doodles on the piano while I am talking.

The last lesson, I told her she wasn't counting, and she insisted that she practiced! (I later found out from her nanny that she only practiced that day!). She again kept playing it HER way a few times, apparently dissatisfied with the results.

I thought I leave the disciplining to the mother and spoke to her about it. The mother who seems to know her temperament, scolded her infront of me, and told me to be firm with her. Even the mother is having problems with her!  I feel sorry for her now, I know she likes music, but is not disciplined yet to listen to me or practice!  This is my first year teaching, I have enjoyed seeing my students progress and grow, but what about the difficult ones (not practicing)? Should I give them fair treatment and hope for a miracle or just teach them for the financial reasons? Sigh.

[hyrst]

Only you can decide whether or not you need to teach for the money. 
I have taught students for the money in such a situation, and found it very wearying.  I dreaded the evening one of the worst had her lessons.  I finally decided it wasn't worth it.  I was lucky enough to have a way out - they failed to pay fees four weeks in a row.  If that hadn't happened, I don't know how I would have got out of that situation.  I felt like I couldn't just tell her I didn't want to teach her - that felt like rejecting her, even though it would have been reasonable.

Based on my experience now, if I had these warning signs so early, I would have a talk with the girl and her mother and lay down the rules very clearly to start with.  Personally, I would give her a chance - but I would make it very clear to the mother and the girl what I expect of their behaviour if I am to work with them.  If they break those rules, I would tell them.  Next time, I would warn them.  If they do it the last time, I would cancel lessons.  If you let things drag on, you get yourself in an awkward position.  If it keeps going, do you tell them you have finally had enough?  Far better for them to see it is a consequence of their decisions and give them the opportunity to change with someone else in the future.  (Unfortunately, they have probably already been through this but only they can take responsibility for their own change.)

So, you need to make a decision what behaviours are necessary for you to work with this girl and what things you can put up with.  Be very firm and consistent at all times so she gets the message you are not going to put up with nonsense, but be kind and understanding when possible as well - you don't want to be just that mean person because then you won't get through to her.  Respect and encoruage her creativity, but give it a  structure to work within.  Your direct permission keeps you in charge.  (Only make a stand on things that you believe are important enough to cancel lessons for or that you can directly control.  You can close the piano lid while you talk, but you have no power to stop her otherwise.  You can't make her count, but you can close the piano and turn on a metronome and keep the rhythm yourself until she joins in.)

I would give her a very explicit practice list - what to do, what to focus on, how many times to play different parts, etc.  I would give her a different list for every day, even if it requires writing a lot of the lesson time, and one day off.  I would ask her mother to take note of the practice and sign each day that it is completed properly.  I would make this one of the conditions of teaching her - but make the list achieveable (5 to 10 minutes of work). 

If they really want to learn and work with you, you will see the effort.  If they are unable to change, it should not be your responsibility.  If you are advertisiing effectively you will probably replace her as an income source within a couple of months, max.  This kind of stress really does not help as a first year teacher.

[dana_minmin]

Play her some easy beautiful piece to draw her attention.

This might work, or not, if you give her or yourself a chance. 

[Bob]

If the kid is actually misbehaving during the lesson I might drop them.  Or raise the rates.  You teach.  You're not a babysitter.  They might just be wasting your time. 

[indutrial]

If the kid is actually misbehaving during the lesson I might drop them.  Or raise the rates.  You teach.  You're not a babysitter.  They might just be wasting your time. 

When I have students who don't practice or act like douchebags, I make it plainly obvious by not setting up future lessons or cancelling lessons (car accident, dead relative, sprayed by a skunk, house burned down). I refuse to war with kids about practicing and I hate having to face the parents about it. It's just not worth the annoyance. Fortunately, my private teaching is really just a second job and I usually have "irregular regulars" I can call on if I need to fill gaps in my schedule. Another benefit I have is that I teach almost all adult and college-aged students, so most of them take it pretty seriously and know damn well how much money the time is worth.

A teacher, especially a private teacher, should NEVER have to parent the kid in addition to teaching him/her how to play C major scales and such.

[slobone]

I agree with hyrst. You can't just hope for things to get better, or that the child will suddenly fall in love with music. You need to make it clear to the parent that your time is valuable, that you're not a babysitter, and possibly hint that you don't need the aggravation of a student who's apparently not all that interested (and who probably gets zero discipline at home, but don't say that.)

Give them a second chance. Set up specific rules for behavior during lessons and home practice, but if nothing changes, drop them like a hot potato. Life is too short.

[hyrst]

I didn't explain that one of the reasons I hesitated on droppping the student I mentioned was that she seemed pretty enthusiastic about music - nearly all the time.  I was afraid to dampen her spirit or turn her off.  However, she rarely listened or followed instructions and it was pretty obvious she didn't practice, even though she told me she did.  I wrote quite a few letters to parents in the work book and by post - no respoonse.  I found her terribly frustrating and every week I was looking for a way to get her to pick up the reading and technique she should have learnt months before.  I was working far harder than her - it was  exhausting.  I never lost my patience but I sure gritted me teeth a few times. 

As Slobone said - life is too short!!!!!

[ptmidwest]

In our pedagogy class, the teacher says not to hesitate to state that "I am very expensive babysitter,"  and the parents hear that pretty clearly.  We learn lots of pedagogy helps like that.  Our whole class is on here at once.

[Bob]

Could be a learning disability too.  Kids might try to hide that.  But the parents should know and would tell you. 

You just do your best, be upfront and honest with the parents.  If there's a problem, then take care of it.  But if the kid is actually misbehaving, I would consider dropping them.  That's too much work.

[slobone]

To break it down a little further -- if you feel the parents are on your side, and will cooperate with you in improving the child's behavior, that would be an additional reason for staying with her. But if the parents are part of the problem, there's not going to be much you can do...

[hyrst]

Discussing expectations with the mother and girl, and getting an agreement to supervise practice should be some indication of how much cooperation you are likely to get.  If the mother is agreeable, you might have some hope.  If she makes excuses or just yells at the girl, I wouldn't even start.

[indutrial]

Could be a learning disability too.  Kids might try to hide that.  But the parents should know and would tell you. 

You just do your best, be upfront and honest with the parents.  If there's a problem, then take care of it.  But if the kid is actually misbehaving, I would consider dropping them.  That's too much work.

I don't have enough parents who really seem to lay the law down with their kids. The music thing is treated as an after-school activity like tee-ball and soccer. Similar to the way those are, it's apparently okay to suck as long as the kid is having fun. Not much fun for a teacher who's self-conscious enough to want talented kids though.

[timothy42b]

Could be a learning disability too.  Kids might try to hide that.  But the parents should know and would tell you. 

Yes, I think this approach is much better, leads to less emotion on your part and better solutions.

We really don't want to frame this situation in terms of a misbehaving child who deserves punishment and our anger.

What we have is a child who is not succeeding, and we have to recognize that it may NOT be the child's fault nor within their control. 

When you look at it that way we have more choices.  Perhaps another approach would succeed.  But nobody is obligated to keep trying more approaches, or even one.  If that child cannot succeed at this stage of their development you don't have to stay miserable with them.  You can calmly tell the parents that you aren't going to be able to make progress with this child, without blaming him/her, and they would be better off with another teacher, another activity, or waiting for more maturity. 

You can't pull that off if you are angry, of course, so you have to get hold of your own emotions before you start. 

And if they want to keep you as an expensive babysitter, and you can find a way to have fun with that instead of resenting it, that's an option too.  Not every one of your students is going to win a Tchaik competition.  Actually, statistically, none of your them are!  <grin> 

[keypeg]

Two opposite stories when I taught public school (gr. 2), involving parents.

I got a little boy whom I already knew from detention room, who had a reputation starting in kindergarten.  I learned that his mother dealt with him by locking herself up in the bathroom.  So: no attention or parental presence?

The principal collaborated with me.  Kids who did good work were "sent to the principal's office" to get praise and a sticker.  My little guy put as much effort into doing good work as he had done in doing mischief.  His experience of encountering an authority figure became a positive one - He had been sent to the principal's office for 3 years for punishment.

Show & Tell was run by a class leader who acted as MC, with everyone getting a turn.  The biggest erstwhile troublemakers were authoritarian, demanding orderly classroom behaviour.  The little guy thrived as MC.

An opposite case was a girl whose mother competed with other mothers. She scrutinized everything her daughter did, and it was never good enough.  The girl felt rejected and constantly sought approval. She set us up against each other, by telling her mother that I forced her to stand on her head in gym (she was chubby).  She was clingy, getting her mother to write notes that she was sick so that she could stay with me in the classroom.  She used her energy to observe me for signs of approval (she did a "teacher mime" once) and she did learning tasks in order to win approval, rather than for the joy of learning.  I was a young, inexperienced teacher with no children of my own.

In both cases, the children's relationship to an authority / nurturing figure had an impact on how they behaved elsewhere.  I changed the classroom routine on a hunch gleaned when I found out the boy's mother locked herself in the bathroom.  He needed attention, acknowledgement and leadership from his elders.

[thierry13]

I learned that his mother dealt with him by locking herself up in the bathroom.

Such parents should die. They do not deserve their children.

[keypeg]

Such parents should die. They do not deserve their children

And how does that help anyone?  If you are a teacher and a child crosses your path you have to know what to do with that child in those circumstances at that moment.  It is not within a teacher's expertise to intervene, and a teacher may have to choose whether to take on a child as a student.

In another case we had a mother who was no longer in control of her life, not able to get up during the day, unable to stay organized.  She was a single parent and had gone through major stress.  The school psychologist got involved, connected her to a parent support group so she could get out of her isolation, she rallied and got herself together, and my student began functioning in the classroom.  But that was a team effort in a school setting.

[mattgreenecomposer]

I think you should determine whether its worth the money or not.  Thats what it comes down to in this situation.  I have some really bad piano students but I like them on a personal level and have had them for years so I am attached.  On the other hand, Im not looking for them to be great on their instrument, just hoping that they'll learn something about music by the time they leave.  Its their money, so if they want to waste it, thats their problem.

[pianowelsh]

No such thing as difficult students! only difficult relationships and it takes two to make a relationship. 

[Bob]

I would just define what you do and how far the student can go.  Once they're once, warn them, and then they're out.  No sense wasting much time if they don't really want to be there and learn.

[lostinidlewonder]

She doesn't like to count while playing, and always doodles on the piano while I am talking.

This highlights the fact that she isn't learning from counting. Some young students cannot understand how to apply counting so you just leave it and teach them the notes even if they are uneven. It is a lot better than trying to get them to play completely evenly but hate their slow lesson.

The last lesson, I told her she wasn't counting, and she insisted that she practiced! (I later found out from her nanny that she only practiced that day!). She again kept playing it HER way a few times, apparently dissatisfied with the results.

At the moment that she demonstrates how she plays you should play a game with her and pretend to play like someone who is much worse than her highlighting one of her mistakes in a melodramatic fashion. You should highlight what she did that was correct (even if it is a very small amount) and then give slow direction towards an improvement in a small part.

You should always sympathize with a student who feels frustrated. Agree that it is difficult and tough and really make them feel like you are working hard to help them with a problem that is tough for you to work out too! Work on their level, even though its simple for you, you work in terms of their attention span and their technical ability. Sometimes attention span is only 20 second spurts with 20 seconds distraction. You learn to ride these waves of attention with difficult students always try to engage them with more of your own interest in the keyboard than their own. If you demonstrate you are more interested to see them do it than themselves this encourages them.

Some students simply do not want to learn. I usually say, lets get through this bit quickly then we can finish for today. Always telling them that there isn't long to go so just work extra hard. It is like telling a marathon running who was running all day that the end is only 1 km away. It gives them extra energy to push themselves to the end. Some lazy students who always complain IM TIRED or feel uninspired to repeat passages I try to tell them its not long to go so wake up and put some effort in. I do not feel it is my responsibility to make them practice when I am gone. But when they work with me they are going through practice routines with me not half assed, but as good as they can go. At the end of many of my lesson with them I tell them, wow look how much you got through and remembered, and that was only in less than 1 hour! Imagine if you did this every day?

Many students do not practice so I make sure our lessons highlight how to practice. I literally go through the memory process with them, and the improvement in fingering, sound etc. Do all the hard work with them, spoon feed them how to get through it all. Sometimes I will just sit back for 10 minutes and get them to work on a passage themselves explaining how they go through learning it and I comment on their procedure. It makes the lesson very easy but I find it necessary to watch the student try to learn (mostly on their own) in front of me because they don't do it any time else. Just being a silent witness and watching your student trying to teach themselves something is very valuable for the teacher, this is how your student learns without you.

We can easily be fooled that our student is able to learn by themselves if we spoon feed them through the procedure every lesson. I certainly learnt that fact early on in my teaching when a student of mine worked very well and always did what I asked and what we did in class, but when I asked them to learn a piece themselves they couldn't. From then on I always found being a silent witness to your student learning is very good sometimes to give you a window into their own learning ability, when they have to make all the decisions themselves. Their frustrations might give you hints as to why they do not practice by themselves. Would you want to practice if you kept going the wrong?

[keyofc]

Unfortunately - many students are not well behaved - and they are expecting to play music without practicing.

I think you have to figure out how much it's bothering you to keep this student.

But I do think you have an advantage that the parent seems to be on your side.
It sounds like the parent is really trying - and does not want the child to just skid
through lessons.

Good luck!

In retrospect - I have to say my first student was a perfect student to me.  She came to me
with a sweet attitude - loving music, loving challenges - and delighted to meet them.
She followed all my practice directions - and for a while - she was my only student.
 She learned reading music fast - and seemed to think everything we were doing was cool!
Wow - was I in for a surprise when I found out that most students were not even close to her.

So - maybe you were blessed with students like this - before this new student you have.  And if so, I sympathize with you - but don't lose hope - the others (unless they are totally rude)
are still good material to leave your musical imprints on.
 

[nia_kurniati]

If you say she seems likes music and you want to giver her a chance .. maybe you can give her a VERY SIMPLE song and short. Only 1 song per lesson. But you must finish it at that 1 lesson time. If this is too much, you must feel glad even if she only can play 1-2 phrase. Even if she play by one hand, we can accompany by our playing. So by the time she got home at least she can play 1 song or 1 phrase. Maybe with this way at least she could still like music, just dont make it harder for her or she would hate music forever. Dont ever think to giver her any scales or etc. And definitely dont expect her to practice at home.

I do that to my lazy student.

But if the girls problem is at her home, her mother or else .. well just let her go, I agree that we're not a babysitter. With this kind misbehaving kids would need years to make it better, do we have energy for that ...?

[meli]

Thanks guys for all your valuable advice! I am new to teaching, so this 'tough cookie' will be a challenge. She may have a learning disability, and some other problems lurking somewhere e.g school etc.. She has shown interest in music e.g. she likes Fur Elise, Ode to Joy, etc.. but has no discipline to practice!  I feel sorry for her for being at beginner stage after a long time. I guess my only goal is making her appreciate music, and learning 'something' no matter how small it is in each lesson. I remember we were working on a simple song in Faber (5 bars long!) which she should have practiced! Halfway, she doodled Fur Elise and asked me to teach her how to play it!! The way she said it was like, just teach me NOW and I'll be able to play it.  Oh Boy! I told her directly, you want to learn Fur Elise, and you can't practice & play a 5 bar song correctly, wow you're that smart huh? (in a joking manner). I have a feeling she has other pieces in mind too. Anyway, I will try and be as positive as I can with her or she might hate me, or even worse, hate music which is not why her mother hired me for!

[slobone]

meli, after reading the other posts and thinking about it a little, I do think you ought to try to do the best you can, especially if she seems to like the idea of being able to play. A teacher can't always afford to take on only highly disciplined students!

If she's impatient (and may have ADD or a similar problem) you could try setting short-term, manageable goals, and then rewarding her with praise when she achieves them. That will give her more self-confidence and motivate her to work in a more focused and structured way.

Be positive, but don't over-praise her. Don't tell her she's wonderful when she's just OK. Make sure the goals are highly specific so that she knows what she's working for when she practices. Your best hope is to make practicing rewarding for her so that she does it voluntarily and doesn't always have to be supervised by her parents.

Don't try to sell her on the idea that practicing is always "fun", because that's not reality-based! You'll be doing her a big favor if you can give her a framework that's serious but achievable. The little-bittier the goals the better, with this kind of student.

I speak as one who's probably had ADD since I was a kid. And it definitely interfered with my progress on the piano. I don't think any of my teachers, except possibly the last one, really understood how to manage me.

[keypeg]

I had a thought when I read the "Fuer Elise" part.  First of all, she is a student who has had several teachers and made no progress.  Secondly she believes that you learn a piece just like that.  Third, she's not practicing what she is given.

This gives me the impression that she has never really understood the nature of music and developing it.  For her, it's still an instantaneous process.  We all start out believing that.  You know the link between the little piddly stuff she has to do first, and what she will be able to achieve later.  But for her it's meaningless piddly stuff.  Where I'm at as a student, I love "piddly".  It's the holy grail and cornerstone for all that follows.  It's the elixir.  It's... oops, getting carried away.   

What if you started with where she is at?  If she is able to experience the link, she will be motivated to work your way, and that would make all the difference.

She wants to play Fuer Elise.  It's about the first piece I ever played when I self taught, full version, because I didn't know what was supposed to be hard.  I had an interesting interpretation, mind you, but working it out note for note, over months, I played a fair semblance of the real thing.

The first part isn't that complicated.  What if you taught her how to practice and approach music through Fuer Elise.  Tell her that you will teach it to her, but only if she follows your instructions.  I don't know how you would build it, but there are the melodic phrases in the right hand, the broken chord patterns in the left, whatever choreography of the fingers has to be done to get them to go where they need to go.

What if Fuer Elise could become a vehicle for learning how to learn, and learning how to practice?  What if she worked on little chunks or units of that piece, with some kind of time goal set?  "In four weeks you will be able to play (name it)", being generous so that she will be ahead instead of behind.  It will only work if she follows what you say, however.  You hold the "magic key" which is her choice to grab.

Could something like that work?

In fact, I believe in this magic key for real.  If we try to learn music by playing it from beginning to end, and don't know how to approach it from its components, and systematically, it takes us forever to get anywhere.  But if we learn some approaches, it's like magic. Suddenly, in a few months, you can do things you could not do before, and what was hard becomes easy (comparatively speaking).  It IS a magic key.

[dora96]

My daughter's piano teacher considers that my daughter is difficult student. I always go with her to her piano lesson every week. My daughter has been going and learning from this for 15 months. The beginning she only played very basic beginner John Thompson's book, didn't know how to read music very well.

In the beginning, the teacher tried  to explain to her how to read the music. Lines and spaces. Every good boy deserves fruit, and in the space F A C E so on. The problem -  She was only 6 and half years old when she learned from her, but the teacher expected her to know instantly, She said to her, before she played the music, named the notes.

I tried to help to her to revise what the teacher taught her. She has progressed incredibly, within 6 months, my daughter has pass her initial grade TCL with 82 marks. I thought the teacher should be well pleased with her progress. However, teacher said  a lots of things during the lesson, without making any note or specific instruction, and expected her know it. I sat next to her and tried to absorb her teaching. But honestly, once my daughter left her studio, and come to practicing the piano, she hardly can recall the lesson. I had to help her revise and studied the notes and fingering.

Every lesson, the teacher keeps complaining to me she is not paying attention, she doesn't care. I try to explain to her the note is like burr, she doesn't know how to recognize the note without counting the lines and space. When she learns a new piece of music, the teacher makes her to play with both hands and counting at the same time. My daughter is nearly busting in tear, she said she can't do it. The teacher insists that she has to do it this way. The slow she get, the more struggle she gets, the teacher shouts her, pay attention and read the note quickly.

It is so hurtful to even watch it. I have been revising your music with  her at home. She can learn, but she is very slow learner. When she has done something right, the teacher hardly says anything positive. She implies to me that she should know it how many lesson she has been learning it. If she names  and count every note before she plays the piano, there will not be problem. She hardly understands how and why to play, there is lots of concept she understands, When she asks. The teacher keeps showing her the note. This is middle C, D , G, and then the lesson is finished. Whole entire month, just learning a few notes. I feel very frustrated by talking about the notes without any visualizing materials to aid to understand how sight reading it should be done.

She has struggle but she tries to do her best. Now she is in grade 2, and doing the exam next week. All the exam music, my daughter and I try to work it out ourselves and scales, and exercises and piece. During the exam rehearsal, she played the scales with wrong fingering, she shouted at her in the middle of playing the scale, wrong finger, you are failure on the scale. She was so upset, her heart dropped, and then she's  just done wrong most of  the things wrong. She felt that whatever she did was dumb and imperfect. I tried to explain to the teacher, she is working as hard as she can. The teacher's replies was from the beginning, your daughter has never treated me as her teacher. Because, I helped her at home, and she was dependent on me, to think for her, to work the notes for her. I feel that is not fair. If she didn't  learn it at home, she will get mad by the teacher.  I wanted to fire this teacher for some time, but I thought I waited until the exam finished. She said she is doing the exam, if she is doing bad, not paying attention to the fingering on scales, or not counting the tempo. She gets bad mark. Her name on the exam paper, not only make her bad plus, her reputation will be ruined by my daughter.

The teacher said to me, I should start getting angry with her. if she can't think for herself, if she won't take responsibilities for herself. I should get her some disciplined. She said to me"I don't  like to joke with students when she is teaching the lesson. Kids don't know that is serious business. Learning should be strict, not be distracted.

I felt I have done something terrible to my daughter. She is used to love music, finding music is fun. Now she is doing it to please me and her teacher. Of course, I fire the teacher. She won't take any opinion about her teaching method. The rotten thing is she thinking she is doing brilliant job as piano teacher because in such short period time, she can make kids to know the music.

[hyrst]

It is so sad to hear your story.  Your poor daughter.  I hope she finds her love of music again.

[dora96]

It is so sad to hear your story.  Your poor daughter.  I hope she finds her love of music again.

I know it is sad and shame. You know I am a teacher myself. At the beginning, it was very difficult to teach my own children. My son wasn't interested enough to play the piano, and my daughter was and willing to give it a go. However, it is hard as a parent and a teacher, there are so many things happened  in the house which distract my kids to learn and concentrate so I get her a teacher. I think that the problem - the teacher knows that she is not very good beginner teacher, for young children, patient, love and encouragement are the  lifeline for young children. It is so hard to know what they really understand. I feel that the teacher is  sometimes amazed that she hasn't taught a new piece, but at least, my daughter tries to work on it before she starts teaching her, but it is sad that she won't acknowledge her effort. I feel that there is not even a single Brova for being diligent to work beforehand. She pretends that she has taught her already, and I have a feeling that I taught her instead of she. She feels that my daughter is learning from two different teachers. So that is why, she may be angry that my daughter has never treated her as a teacher. I don't know - a disciple can't serve two masters. What do you think? I always say to my daughter, " I am here to support you and help you if you are stuck. Honestly, 30 minutes each week, it is not a lot for a lesson especially for young kids, as soon as you turn around, they already forget about it. Their attention span is so limited, and so many things in their mind are spinning around and around in their head.

The teacher claimed that most Australian kids don't like her, but obedient Asian kids love her, they will do whatever she said, if they don't, their parents will make them so do. In the TCL exam, most of her student at least will get merit to distinction, very rarely just pass the exam.  There is no doubt she may be a very good teacher in her way, but the method -  don't let the students play the song right through, but in the middle of the song shout it " Wrong" " Where is Crescendo ?" " What is the tempo" " Why can't you count loud ?" I know she wants to correct it straight right without wasting too much time, but most kids are very intimated, shaking their confidence, especially in the beginning level. Honestly how long are the beginners' song, only few lines, why can't let her play right through before comment or do correction. I know some teachers don't let kid do that.

From this lesson, it is the reminder for myself, patient and love for the students, shouldn't shake their confident no matter what. Some kids are very sensitive they think the most negative when they can't achieve. They think they are dumb, stupid and can't get thing right. Sometimes, I feel frustrated teaching my own kids, I will make negative comments on them as well, I do need to be humble to say " Sorry" when I am cooling down, but if a teacher says negative comments will remind in their childhood for very long time or for the rest of their lives.
 

I have a friend, he is violin performer and now he is a violin teacher. I said why learned th violin when you were young, why not the piano. He said " His piano teacher would rack his fingers with stick if he played the wrong notes. What a shame! Tragic. In fact, I myself  was also a victim. My former teacher would rack my fingers with a ruler when I didn't count or played the wrong note. I thought all teachers were like that, but there was 25 years ago. I am sure there are plenty horrible story. I know teachers are very frustrated, and feel really hopeless, so many time, so many reminders, but there is no improvement on whatever they are teaching. The only things seem work " discipline and get serious business". I think  the damage will be worst than a murderer. A murderer to their musical soul.   

[slobone]

I think the teacher has to adjust her method to the student. Yelling works for some kids, obviously not for all. It's good that you've removed your daughter from this unsympathetic person. You don't want her to grow up hating the piano.

As for teaching her yourself, that's difficult. If she's taking lessons with another teacher, you don't want to interfere with what that teacher is telling her. But I don't see any objection to teaching her yourself. In the US at least, it's not unusual for parents to "home school" their own kids.

My mother was quite an accomplished pianist, though not a teacher. I always took lessons with somebody else. But it's funny, I don't remember a single time in my childhood when my mother made any suggestions about how I should play, even though I was doing a lot of things wrong. I still can't decide whether that was the right thing for her to do.

[hyrst]

I doubt you are near me, but I would be so happy to help if I could.

Yes, a lot of the Asian children are easy to teach - but that doesn't make us good teachers!  

I know how it is, being unable to teach your own children.  I tried my boys with piano, I even struggled to see through getting them to practice.  They were far from inspired by their teacher, too - they have never touched piano again.  I am disappointed that my children have no appreciation of the music that means so much to me.  I hope it works better for your daughter.

I didn't know there were horrible teachers like that around anymore - all that harshness and creating dedication out of fear.  I was very fortunate.  My teacher had a mean teacher - with rods in the back and rulers across the knuckles.  She used to talk about it sometimes.  I was lucky - she was very kind and thoughtful towards me.  She used to laugh and say I was lucky she didn't believe in doing those things - I certainly needed the discipline, but I wouldn't have taken well to it.  I loved music and she fostered that in me because of her patience.

I wouldn't worry about being your daughter's second teacher.  It sounds like you are actually her real teacher - except by name - but, anyway...  As you said, young kids quickly forget what they are told during lessons - even how they play during lessons after a bit of help.  I encourage parents to attend lessons and to work with their children - especailly if the parent knows something about music (if they don't, I teach the parent what to help the kid with at home as part of the lesson).  Children whose parents work with them at home have far more chance of success at an early age than those who are expected to work it out for themselves - it's just too hard.  

If your daughter's teacher can't handle that, I don't think that is the only problem she has!  It sounds like your daughter wouldn't have made it a fraction of the distance she has if it wasn't for you.

[dora96]

Hi Hyrst,

Thank you for your support and compassion. I don't know why I always attract most indifferent piano teacher, even when I was young. I am sometimes really wondering that it happens again to  find a cold and opinionated piano teacher for my daughter. You did post " precious teaching " in this forum. 6 years old can play Chopin C# Nocturne. What a gifted child? I bet she loves music very much and work hard on her piece to get the extraordinary performance. You can imagine if a teacher doesn't seem appreciative, it must be hard and heart breaking to the child. I feel that it doesn't matter what they play in John Thompson or Chopin. If they learn from their best and understanding to a child must be very precious thing as well as especially to a teacher.  My daughter's piano teacher want to take all the glory and credit to herself instead of sharing with the child.
I know I should put her behind us. I hope my daughter can meet someone like you in the future.

[hyrst]

I agree - your daughter needs affirmation for all her effort. 

It is easy to tell when a child has given their best to their  work - whatever standard they achieve or however complex the piece.  (It was actually the extent of giving her all to her piece that I was touched by with my little student.  I got the impression some people thought, in my post about her, that I was boasting about how hard the piece  was - that was not meant to be the case.  I only mentioned the specific piece because I love it so much and I thought other people might have a better idea about what happened if I gave the context.  Last week, I saw another girl get closer to that level of committment and affect than is common, and this was in  her second beginners' book.)

At least you can recognise what your daughter has done - and your appreciation is importnat, too.  Maybe you will be able to find a new teacher who is able to tell your daughter straight up that it is wonderful that someone as young as her has already completed her first exam.  Maybe if a teacher offers that in the beginning, without being suggested, they just might be the right teacher.

Maybe you could make it positive also, by saying something like how proud you are of your daughter for being so grown up with working conscientiously with somebody who wasn't very kind and that lots of people would find that very hard but she was very responsible.

I hope everything gets better for you both.

[whynot]

I’ll take difficult students.  They have spirit and passion, and sometimes a patient teacher can really turn things around.  If you don’t want to do it, it’s okay to stop.  But it sounds like you want to try, so I’ll share the things I do.

*I greet them with a big smile and, if they look tired or had a bad day, I ask, “Are you up to this?  Can we work for a few minutes and see how you’re feeling?”  I really look at them, I really try to see them, and they get that.  And they’ll work hard for the full time.

*No parents in the lesson!!  Difficult students are often in trouble at home and school, and their time with me is a fresh start.  There is family tension with these kids, and that can invade the lesson.  I respectfully ask the parent to allow me to work with the child one-on-one. 

*Many children haven’t been taught good manners, and you can’t have productive lessons without respectful behavior.  If you want to keep a student who hasn’t learned this, you’ll have to be the one to teach it. 
I only insist on two points of etiquette, that they look at me while I’m talking and not play/doodle while I’m talking.  I don’t announce these points, I just tell them exactly what to do when the situation arises until they do it on their own.  I am calm and polite.  When I start talking, I say, “Look at me,” and if they don’t look, I say, “Look at my face, I have something important I want to tell you.”  Once they look, I smile!  They usually stop playing then, but if they keep doodling, I say, “You have a lot of energy in your fingers, and we’re going to play again in a second.  Put your hands in your lap and let me tell you one quick thing first.”  That’s easier to obey than, “Don’t play while I’m talking.” I used to have a boy who was so distracted, he couldn’t even put his hands in his lap.  For him, I would put the piano lid down (slowly! carefully! not as a threat!) and say, “I know it’s hard to stop playing, let me help you.  Watch your fingers!  I’m going to put this down for a minute to make it easier for you.”  They need opportunities to practice doing the right thing, and they need to be told exactly what that is. Two points about kids who “doodle”:  one, they have a lot of energy in their hands and crave the physical act of playing; and two, they love music and find frequent interruptions very frustrating.  It’s almost unbearable to be stopped every few measures.  I let them play a lot and finish pieces, then they don’t mind going back.

*I’m never punitive in a lesson.  I am there to help them and for no other reason, and I say that often, “I am here to help you.  I want piano to be even more fun for you, YOU are the reason I came in today.”  Once they really understand that, they’ll do almost anything for you.

*I pick my battles.  Your student refuses to count out loud.  Many people with great natural rhythm can’t relate that instinct to numbers, and it’s pointless to fight that (and unfair).  Many students find it embarrassing to count out loud in front of their teacher.  Or she may not know how.  Be creative and keep trying to work together, don’t let her turn it combative.

*I have long-term teaching goals:  healthy physical approach, strong rhythm, self-sufficient reading and problem-solving, and a joyful love of music.  Let other things go until she trusts you more, and TEACH HER THROUGH THE MUSIC SHE TRULY LOVES.  If she loves Fur Elise and can’t read music, show her phrase by phrase how to play it, and then help her write the notes.  Working “backwards” like this is a revelation for people who’ve had trouble reading.  Tell her it’s a secret code (which it is), and that if she practices reading and writing the code, she can read and play anything she wants.  You wouldn’t believe what advanced work a child can do if she’s really excited about it.  Don’t tell her it’s hard, just do it together.  Help her to do something special that matters to HER, show her you are on her side, and see what happens.

[ptmidwest]

EXCELLENT, Whynot!

[keypeg]

Whynot, that is superb.  Thank you so much for sharing. 

[dleya]

ignore

[dleya]

Hi
I am a parent of a student who has started learning music for the last year or so. She hates counting the time and does not want to repeat things and to be stopped in between and you will probably call her badly behaved student. But she has learnt quiet a bit I think because I sit with her and do things, get her to listen peices and play the notes. If she listens to a piece of music and then I give her the notes, she will play the piece on her own in 5-10 minutes. I guess she has a good ear for music. one of her teachers said it is a sign of Genius.  She is learning the Piano and the violin. I just wanted to share this.
I personally dont think its her behaviour. Its just her way of learning music. Each one has their individual way of learning.
thanks

[dora96]

Hi
I am a parent of a student who has started learning music for the last year or so. She hates counting the time and does not want to repeat things and to be stopped in between and you will probably call her badly behaved student. But she has learnt quiet a bit I think because I sit with her and do things, get her to listen peices and play the notes. If she listens to a piece of music and then I give her the notes, she will play the piece on her own in 5-10 minutes. I guess she has a good ear for music. one of her teachers said it is a sign of Genius.  She is learning the Piano and the violin. I just wanted to share this.
I personally dont think its her behaviour. Its just her way of learning music. Each one has their individual way of learning.
thanks

My daughter is quite similar. She also has a good ear. She will always ask me to play for her first to get idea how the music go. The previous teacher said that it is bad idea, because she is not learning by herself, reading the note and count within the music, she just like a copy-cat.

I do understand sometimes students like to do their own thing and create their own rhythm, but not to follow the composers. I always ask my daughter please slow down, she claims that she is doing as slow as she can, but when she is playing, she is not aware of it. I have to record the music and play it back to her, and show her why she is playing it too fast and too erratic in tempo. There are so many things to absorb when students learn music. It is not easy. Even though, for me I have to keep telling myself slow down, slow down...... It is so easy and natural when the tone color change to forte, or double fort, the fingers just speed up.

My concert pianist teacher will give me repertoire to learn, e.g. please learn Chopin Nocturne op9 No.1. I will go home and work the notes for hours and even days and days, next lesson, she assumes that she has taught me already. She has no idea that I have spent so many and many hours and days and days  to work the song out. The 3 against 2 triplets. The memorization and background of the music, and advice I get from this forum, and recording to get feedback from this forum. She has absolutely no idea.   It would be nice to say " You have been working hard for the repertoire" No! just like everything is as easy as piece of cake. When she tells me the dynamic and interpretation and phrasing, if I slip or not achieve that she looses her patient straightaway. I say to her it would be nice to be  child prodigy. You say once I can play magically. It is very frustrated sometimes I feel, no matter what I do, it seems that nothing is perfect, only herself absolutely perfect and ingenious teaching.   

[chopinmozart7]

just try to make the best from the situation. and be paitient with your students