Pramberger

[jr11]

I tried a number of these grands and was most impressed. There are models which are basically copies of the US & Euro Steinways. They're made under a Young Chang division, headed by a fellow who used to work with Steinway and Bosendorfer (so I'm told). I compared them side-by-side with a $80,000 Seiler grand, and they blew it away. Anyone else try out the Pram's? Whaddaya think?

[G.Fiore]

JR, don't be swayed by the spiel of a salesman. Joseph Pramberger was an engineer at NY Steinway for many years. He has never worked for Bösendorfer.
He did a lot of work redesigning the Pramberger series for Young Chang, but they are in no way close to the scale designs of the Hamburg or NY Steinways.
While I know the Seiler is a good example of German craftsmanship, I would not go as far as saying the Prambergers blew it away.
Get out and try some of the great pianos out there,such as Bechstein,Steingräeber,Bösendorfer,and Fazioli. Then I'm sure you will be blown away.

[donjuan]

I tried a Pramberger in a Young Chang store once.  The action was stiff.  It was difficult to press the keys, but I found that I needed to use hand weight to get any forte out of it.  I loved the tone in the treble- very bell-like.  However, I prefer Petrof.  They are much more affordable and the action feels more comfortable.  The problem with Petrof is the quality control.  Sometimes they will put out perhaps the greatest instrument, but other times, the keybed squeaks, the soundboard cracks, and the whole piano falls apart.
donjuan

[Axtremus]

This may go a bit off topic. My appology in advance. Just something that I have been thinking about lately.

Usually, when a pianist comments on a cheaper piano of lesser reputation (usually Asian or Eastern European) "performs better" or "sounds better" than an established costlier make (usually German or Steinway), the argument to defend the established costlier make would go like these:

"It's easy to make a new piano perform/sound good, but hard to have a piano continue to perform/sound good over the long term (decades), and that's where you pay for the extra for the established/costlier make, because it'll just get better over time while the newer/cheaper will only go downhill from here."

I am not sure how much I'd like to subscribe to that argument, but in JR11's case, I think you simply found yourself responded better to the Pramberger and liked it better than the Seiler. And I think it is perfectly OK to like a cheaper/lesser-known piano more than a costlier/better-known piano. Perfectly fine, and perfectly lucky because then you can have a piano with which you are pleased without having to pay much for one!

I would not pay any attention to the claim that a Pramberger is a copy of Steinway or Bösendorfer or anything else. The way I look at it, for a pianist choosing a musical instrument that is the piano, if the Steinway sound appeals to you and you can afford it, go get a Steinway. Same with Bösendorfer. Same with Seiler. If you find the Pramberger performs/sounds the way you like, then get a Pramberger. If a piano speaks to you, it does not matter whether it is an imitation of some other more famous pianos or just another Brand X piano -- it speaks to you and that's what counts the most.

Yes, I tried out Prambergers before and I was not as taken by them as you have been (I thought they lacked 'depth'). But that's just my personal taste. A Seiler costing four times as much may have valid reasons to cost that much more. But you need not like a piano for these reasons. (I once accompanied a young lady, a trained pianist, to sample a room full of Bösendorfers, Faziolis, Schimmels, Yamaha pianos, and did so after sampling Steinways in another showroom ... we talked about how famous and expensive those Steinways, Bösendorfers and Faziolis are, yet at the end, she said she liked the Yamaha the best and made no bone about it. I did not agree with her, but that's her choice.)  

Oh... back to Pramberger. Joe Pramberger, while never worked for Bösendorfer, did spent a few years with Yamaha (after Steinway but before Young Chang). Of course, people selling Pramberger pianos would like to emphasize Mr. Pramberger's Steinway connection more than his Yamaha connection. Big surprise!

None of Mr. Pramberger's "connection" means anything -- if you like the piano, you like the piano; if you don't, you don't.

[jr11]

Axtremus, you have quite accurately described my experience in trying out the Pramberger. I didn't mean to imply that this make was in the same class as the high-end pianos, but none the less, I was taken by the tone and touch of a couple of the models. I should also make it clear that I am simply a RC Gr10 student with a great love of all music as an art, and my experience on the better pianos is rather limited. I do not have the financial means to purchase a fine concert grand, or the space to keep one, but we all like to dream, don't we? Besides, I am quite content with my old 1915 rebuilt Mason & Risch 165... it may be just familiarity, but I have found few to equal it.

[Antnee]

We just bought a new 5'9 Pramberger Platinum Edition grand about six months ago. It has a very good tone. Although the action is a little stiff, I like it better than lighter actions. If you have any questions feel free...

-Tony-

[Axtremus]

Axtremus, you have quite accurately described my experience in trying out the Pramberger. I didn't mean to imply that this make was in the same class as the high-end pianos, but none the less, I was taken by the tone and touch of a couple of the models. ...

These days, I don't even like to think about pianos in terms of high-end, low-end, high class, low class... the only thing that matters is that the piano performs the way you want it to perform. If it's a $80,000 Seiler grand that gives you what you want, fine; if it's a $7000 Pearl River grand, fine too! (I hope you don't find the next statement offensive.) There is no need to feel inferior just because you like a piano that others do not consider high-end.

Usually, when people talk about "high-end" versus "not-high-end" pianos, short of simply comparing $$$ value on the open market, the arguments would center around a few things: sound/performance, material, workmanship, build quality, (and I'd like to add track record -- how reliable or how "bug-free" the pianos are in the field for how long). These are often used to rationalize the $$$ value of a piano. Sound/Performance are subjective (i.e. your opinion is as good as anyone else's). The rest are semi-objective.

IMO, material, workmanship, "build quality," and track record are important only in the sense that they need to be good enough that you can be reasonably confident that the piano will not fall apart or develop serious problems in, say, the next 5, 10, 20, or how many years you plan on keeping the piano. Lots of Asian piano manufacturers give 10 year warranties, a Pramberger comes with a 15 year warranty. So it's difficult to find a new piano that won't last at least that long these days for regular home use, assuming proper care and maintenance.

Any additional "quality" beyond making the piano lasts that many years would go to "sound/performance." That's all subjective and it's best to go with what you like rather than what some one else thinks is "high-end."

In short, don't let the "high-end/low-end" label influence you too much and "go with your heart" (subject to the size of your piano room and your bank account balance, of course).

[thomas_williams]

My teacher teaches my lessons at a church, and occasionally the sanctuary is in use during the lesson time (like someone else is practicing), in which case we go to the choir room.  The choir room has a Pramberger upright.  It has a nice tone and feel, but it dosen't come close to the Steinway in the recital hall where I've performed a couple of times!

[Babcock]

I have a 6"1" Pramberger in my studio for my students to play.  For the money, I thought the sound and feel of it was good value.  It seems to be holding up well after 4 years of heavy use and continues to be a musical sounding instrument.

There are some things I will change.  One is to replace the felt button against which the jacks fall. The felt used is too hard and  the jacks are a little noisier than I prefer.  The same apllies to the damper felt.  Many massed produced pianos have a short grained, dense felt on the dampers.  They work efficiently and are easier to seat and regulate when installing, but they, too, are noisier to some degree.  I'll have both replaced in a couple of years with finer grade felt and then the piano will be more to my liking.

Any piano, well maintained, can be great if the sound and feel are to your liking.  There's no sense spending more for a name if you can find something that meets your needs for less money.

I also have a Steinway D for my own use.

[Mihare]

We just bought a new 5'9 Pramberger Platinum Edition grand about six months ago. It has a very good tone. Although the action is a little stiff, I like it better than lighter actions. If you have any questions feel free...

-Tony-

I also have a Pramberger Platinum Edition JP-175!! Love it so much!! 
But got ripped off a little bit before joining this Piano Fourm web site to share my concerns... >_<

Wondering if anyone knows that Pramberger grand piano will show a little appreciation over the years or not? I keep hearing different opinions: some says only the best piano will show its appreciation; some says that almost all grand pianos will....

what do you all think??

Thanks.
 

[Axtremus]

Mihare,

Only very rare "collector" pieces will appreciate. No other pianos will.

Just ask yourself if you're likely to pay more for your own grand piano if you have to re-buy it as a used piano 5, 10, 15, 20 years from now (after adjusting for inflation). If you won't pay more for your own used piano, why should any one else?