Help my technique is not progressing despite prcticing.

[m]

Dear Leahcim,

It seems that you are quite bitter in your piano experience and I could very much sympathyse. I am very sorry, but your post is very unclear and I highly doubt anybody could help you untill some things can be figured and cleared out.

Today for example, I've just spent 2 hours trying to play C D E, C D E, as

1 2 3,  1 2 3,

Playing the notes as quietly as possible, legato and staccato with my left hand. And I simply cannot do it.

Sorry, but what would be ther purpose of this?

Worse, if I watch a "here's how to hold your arms and move them" videos - much like the ones I posted in this thread, but I've seen plenty of alternatives - Then I'm even more at a loss how to do that, and tie that in with being able to actually play notes at a specific volume or at a specific point in time.

I would not waist your time for those ones. "Hold and move your arms" is like advice of "using the weight of your arm"--something what everyone heard, but only very few really know its purpose, meaning, and right execution.

Simply put, I haven't the first idea how to play one note on the piano in a specific way. Do you know? Does anybody know? Why is it so difficult to find out? If I knew and you asked me I would say...so why doesn't anyone tell me? Do I need to pay or something - is that the issue?

Sorry, but I don't understand what do you mean by specific way--what way and what is specific about it? Does anybody know what?--there is a good chance nobody can tell you anything because it is just not specific.

But, I simply find it difficult to believe that anyone sat next to me could help - because you can see in these threads no one says "well I'd have to see you but yes, if you can't play the correct dynamics then you're probably moving your arms incorrectly..." they all say things like you are, something that suggests simply sitting at the piano should have worked, and the reason it hasn't is the teachers attitude towards adults, or as others have suggested that I must be mentally or physically ill in some way.

No one says "I've had a pupil who had the same problem and this is what I did..." - because no one has. They've had pupils who they believe didn't try, or didn't practise or didn't whatever else, that they decide is the reason that pupil didn't learn. What they don't have is any answer to the problem if you say "No look, I can prove to you I am trying and I am practising for hours, it just doesn't work"

Simply put, the teacher doesn't exist.

So, I don't believe there is anyone who plays the piano who can even being to comprehend a problem that they have never had themselves, and that they haven't even recognised is a possibility for their own students lack of progress. Let alone offer a meaningful solution to it.

When most pianists talk about struggling or getting frustrated they aren't really in the same ball park - it's usually doubts over their interpretation of the appassionata or whether they are prepared for their grade 8 exam, something like that. They aren't fretting over their inability to play single notes with one hand after 5 years of trying.

Leahcim, let me start with a question, could you ever imagine a situation when you email to a some random doctor who never seen you, asking:
"Hey Doc, I have some stomach ache. What's up?" His response: "No probs dude--its just some liver cirrhosis." Doesn't it sound absurd? Let me assure that doctor had seen THOUSANDS patients with stomach ache.
In a sense, it is actually exactly what you are asking for.

I had in my professional life at least 400 students... maybe even more. Some of them were crippled by Suzuki method, some by Yamaha school. Everyone had his/hers own problem. Some did not make progress for years, just one day to blossom. Out of all of them I remember only four instances the students did not make any progress.
Two of them were boys who just hated piano and I nicely and politely explained their parents it is just waste of their money and my energy. BTW, one of them has switched to violin and enjoed it quite a bit.
And other two were one girl and boy... let's put it simply, either of them just were not born to play piano... just because of some mental problems and intelligence issues, to put it kindly.

Thoughout my career I had quite a few adult students who were crippled with previous bad teaching. I also had some adult students who started from scratch. I never forget one very sweet 50+ years old woman (real estater) who came to me with no any previous experience. I asked her what is her goal, and she answered she wanted to play Chopin. I told her this is quite complicated music and needs a lot of work and practicing. Her response was: "I don't believe I am that old--I still have some time". I was then a student and needed some cash. I will never forget how six years later that was my final studio concert )before I was moving) and she was playing 3rd Ballade. Needless to say, she played it absolutely beautifully and I will never forget the way she told me "thank you." 

Excuse me Leahcim, the piano playing is not about how you move your arms, or make right dynamics.  Your idea about  teachers attitude towards adults is completely out of line, and
let me assure you, you are not mentally of physically ill. You posts are too intelligent (albeit bitter) for going that far.

You say:

So, I don't believe there is anyone who plays the piano who can even being to comprehend a problem that they have never had themselves, and that they haven't even recognised is a possibility for their own students lack of progress. Let alone offer a meaningful solution to it.

I say, how do you know? For any experienced teacher the whole field of teaching piano is an open book. For a good and experienced teacher it takes 10 seconds just to watch you, to see the core of the problem. It might take years to find EXACTLY right solution, but it has nothing to do with experiencing problem themselves.
Excuse me, but as an analogy, a doctor doesn't need to have a cancer himself to know that his patient has. The doctor does not need to experience a Chemotherapy to know it helps the patient.

You say, you practice for hours... what are you practicing? Do you practice right?, do you know how to practice? Don't forget, it takes the same energy to practice how one should not play piano and how to play piano right.

I don't have the first idea how to play a note on the piano - what to move, what not to move. No idea at all...and I haven't just been to a couple of bad teachers. I've read thousands of forum posts and websites, books and watched videos and practised for hours and hours. If I go on mastermind with the specialist subject of piano methods, I'll probably win.

I still cannot, however, play 2 notes on the piano in any meaningful, musical way...and let's be honest, if it were really this difficult to find this so-called "good teacher" there would be a ton of people saying "Yeah me too" - whereas, as you can see, by far the opposite is true. Indeed, even if we recognise that people learn at different rates  which makes a straight answer to a question like "How long will it take me to learn piano" usually difficult to find...nevertheless, there aren't many teachers who will say "Well, it could take over 5 years to play one simple piece"

Sorry to bring you bad news, but if you want to start making progress, the only thing I could suggest is... to find a teacher. From the bottom of my heart I wish you to find a good one.
I have experience in teaching piano... at least some. All I can tell you, you will never learn to play from books, videos, or this very forum.

Best, M

[leahcim]

Firstly please stop apologising all the #$%$ing time. If you mean something then just say it. If you don't, then don't say it

Sorry, but what would be ther purpose of this?

Well, the purpose is, as I said to

(a) Play notes in time - what time? Doesn't matter - at the moment what I play comes out mostly randomly and sloppy
(b) To play notes at a specific volume - be it ppp through fff...albeit I was specifically trying to play softly.
(c) To play with comfort and without pain

Why? because I can't...and because I believe that the pieces of music I'd like to play have rhythms and thus require notes played on time for the correct length of time...also they have notes played at different dynamics.

I would not waist your time for those ones. "Hold and move your arms" is like advice of "using the weight of your arm"--something what everyone heard, but only very few really know its purpose, meaning, and right execution.

Sure, and other teachers would say I should waste my time on it I know what most teachers think is crap, is "what other teachers say" What I want to know is what they think is right...but that's the difficult question, it's much easier to say something is crap than to create something that is good.

I've read, and even been part of the debates about which methods are crap and whatever.

Now, I'm just not interested in them, nor am I that interested in hearing what I shouldn't do at least in that general sense. What I should be doing is far more difficult to answer [and the usual cop out is "find a good teacher" - will they really tell me? Because as I said, I've been to teachers and they didn't say.

Besides, I've wasted 5 years...I will try literally anything now. Anything at all. If it works then it won't be a waste of time, if it doesn't then it won't be any different from everything else I've tried.

What he has done is created videos saying what he thinks is correct. Videos that are simple and easy to understand and, thankfully, he doesn't sit and say "this is a waste of time..this is crap..hanon is a wanker...hanon is god" and all that silly argument we've had here from time to time.

Nor does he blather on about how difficult it is to describe. He could be completely wrong, of course, but frankly I don't think he is. Contrast his videos with, for example, your reply to me about how to use my thumb [in a different thread] that made no sense at all to me - that could be completely wrong too, but again I doubt it.

I know your conclusion is that I need a teacher, but I don't have one, and you have. more or less. been far more critical of teaching than I have. So how am I supposed to get this teacher?

Finding a "good" teacher is a problem that is probably far more difficult to solve than actually learning the piano by myself - which might be incredibly difficult, but if you can name a teacher who can spend the 10 seconds you say it would take, then fine. If you can't, you may as well say I need to be 7 foot tall, for all the chance I have of achieving that.

Leahcim, let me start with a question, could you ever imagine a situation when you email to a some random doctor who never seen you, asking:
"Hey Doc, I have some stomach ache. What's up?" His response: "No probs dude--its just some liver cirrhosis." Doesn't it sound absurd?

This is unfair. Firstly you're forgetting that the post you replied to was about my experiences visiting a teacher, and showing a teacher my playing. I'm not emailing them.

Secondly, I'm not expecting anyone to say why I can't play without seeing me play...and my question didn't really ask that. No, I won't buy a "every note is different" argument - that simply is not true.

Thoughout my career I had quite a few adult students who were crippled with previous bad teaching. I also had some adult students who started from scratch. I never forget one very sweet 50+ years old woman (real estater)

Great. So you're *** awesome, Marik and you can play the piano brilliantly too. I'm really happy for all your 400 students that can play too. Myself, I love nothing more then telling starving Africans how great my cooking is   But seriously, how does any of that help me?

Excuse me Leahcim, the piano playing is not about how you move your arms, or make right dynamics.  Your idea about  teachers attitude towards adults is completely out of line, and
let me assure you, you are not mentally of physically ill. You posts are too intelligent (albeit bitter) for going that far.

Eh? I was telling the truth about the teachers I've seen. Of course piano is partly about how you move your body, to state otherwise is nonsense, and of course it's partly about playing with the right dynamics too...do you play moonlight sonata all at FFF?

Of course, there's a lot more to it too - but, for example, I cannot play any notes on the piano in a way that doesn't cause pain [in my right arm] - that alone should tell you how stupid it is to say it's not about how you move your arms.

Note also, just after you said I was expecting a Doctor to tell my about my stomach ache, you, completely unqualified medically speaking reassure me that I'm fine That's not really much better than the ones who tell me that I'm not is it?

Please stick to what you know, eh I'm far more interested in what you have to say about piano playing than I am about your [completely wrong as it happens - and you could have read that on the forum] opinions on my state of health.

I say, how do you know?

Because I've been to those teachers.

Plus you say this :-

"For any experienced teacher the whole field of teaching piano is an open book. For a good and experienced teacher it takes 10 seconds just to watch you, to see the core of the problem"

The teachers I had for longer than 10 seconds didn't see it. So you know the answer.

You say, you practice for hours... what are you practicing? Do you practice right?, do you know how to practice? Don't forget, it takes the same energy to practice how one should not play piano and how to play piano right.

I've practiced lots of different things and in lots of different ways over 5 years.

Note, I have practised for hours. Sometimes all day. More recently as I said, I can barely do more than 30 minutes with my right arm, so that was reason for me using the left hand for that because my right arm is basically knackered from playing the piano.

After 5 years and no progress, as I said earlier in the thread, I've more or less given in - but obviously you can see I haven't because I still do practise.

Do I practise right? Well, if doing anything "right" whether it's practise, or playing or whatever else I might do at the piano, should mean you are good at it, or improve at it, then I'm obviously not doing it right, am I? But you're just restating the problem in a different way.

Sorry to bring you bad news, but if you want to start making progress, the only thing I could suggest is... to find a teacher. From the bottom of my heart I wish you to find a good one.

No you're wrong. You forgot to say "good" teacher, remember? Finding a teacher is easy, I've had 3, and made less progress if anything. As you have said in this reply, other teachers and methods meant you had "damage" to undo.

But name 3 if you can.

[m]

No you're wrong. You forgot to say "good" teacher, remember? Finding a teacher is easy, I've had 3, and made less progress if anything. As you have said in this reply, other teachers and methods meant you had "damage" to undo.

But name 3 if you can.

I'd suggest you going into your local University and not be afraid to look for some International students (I'd heartedly advice rather Russians--they usually get through very good school and usuallly go through a good schooling and know methods pretty well). Those usually need cash and try very hard to be good. Audition a few and see if during the first lesson you trust any of them. You will easily see what your heart tells you. 

Best, M

[leahcim]

I doubt there'll be any Russian piano gurus around here.

"Needing cash" and total honesty don't tend to go hand in hand do they? [That's to say, I want this teacher that can look and say "yeah I can help you" or "nah, you need a different teacher" in, as you say, a very short space of time. What would you say if you needed the cash? e.g Remember Bernhard and his fake video drawer?]

And I've no ****ing clue Marik whether someone is a good piano teacher or not, isn't that much at least obvious? What methods will / should they know? That might help.

Thanks anyway.

[m]

I doubt there'll be any Russian piano gurus around here.

"Needing cash" and total honesty don't tend to go hand in hand do they? [That's to say, I want this teacher that can look and say "yeah I can help you" or "nah, you need a different teacher" in, as you say, a very short space of time. What would you say if you needed the cash? e.g Remember Bernhard and his fake video drawer?]

And I've no ****ing clue Marik whether someone is a good piano teacher or not, isn't that much at least obvious? What methods will / should they know? That might help.

Thanks anyway.

It seems and I'd think you need somebody who knows to work with the beginners. Go attend your local piano competitions/festivals/recitals. Those whose kids play consitently well (you can't miss those) are good teachers.

Best, M

[alpacinator1]

Great. So you're *** awesome, Marik and you can play the piano brilliantly too. I'm really happy for all your 400 students that can play too. Myself, I love nothing more then telling starving Africans how great my cooking is   But seriously, how does any of that help me?

S/he just made a long and informative post, generously lending his/her time and energy to help you. You don't need to lash out like that.

[leahcim]

S/he just made a long and informative post, generously lending his/her time and energy to help you. You don't need to lash out like that.

Did you miss the smiley and the subsequent "But seriously"? Besides, what does it say - it says he's awesome, in French too. That part wasn't being sarcastic. Have you heard his recordings? I just didn't see how being told that he is great and has taught lot of students made any point or had a relevant context. Whereas, if you imagine someone who can't play and has spent 5 years getting nowhere perhaps doesn't necessarily want to hear in response how well everyone else is getting on. In a jokey manner though.  Despite what Marik says, I'm not bitter at all, I'm depressed and frustrated, sure, but I don't blame the teachers I have [as I said, I'm sure they have students who get along perfectly well under their tuition] nor do I, in any serious way, begrudge anyone who can play or who has a great teacher just down the road, in Marik, or anyone else.

But, I guess not because as you didn't even manage to figure out his gender you probably aren't paying that much attention to what either of us have said. So, why not **** off to another thread? [Note no smiley]

[leahcim]

It seems and I'd think you need somebody who knows to work with the beginners. Go attend your local piano competitions/festivals/recitals. Those whose kids play consitently well (you can't miss those) are good teachers.

Hmm, ok thanks for your advice, but I I think you've forgotten the huge difference between our worlds again

The local piano competition here?

I have an idea, I shall advertise for one.

[m]

Besides, what does it say - it says he's awesome, in French too. That part wasn't being sarcastic. Have you heard his recordings? I just didn't see how being told that he is great and has taught lot of students made any point or had a relevant context.

I was trying to help and wrote those things as a very specific response to your part that teachers can't understand students problems if they did not have those problems themselves. There was another context as a direct response to some of your concerns, which I don't seem to remember right now, and unfortunately, don't have much time to spend going through this exchange again, as I have already spent considerable amount of time for long posts in this thread.
As a side note, it seems on every my word you have a few counter ones. I am afraid, I don't know what else I can say and contribute in order to help you...

[samuel13]

my teacher always says you must make music to learn music. on cooking classes you learn how to cook by cooking first of all and cutting boiling spicing techniques are taught as you cook not before or on their own.

[leahcim]

my teacher always says you must make music to learn music. on cooking classes you learn how to cook by cooking first of all and cutting boiling spicing techniques are taught as you cook not before or on their own.

I agree, that's part of it.You need to learn to hear music - to develop your ear. To have taste. To read music and about the theory of music. It makes a lot of sense to learn about rep too, or, if you're not just into classical music, about different genres and the characteristics and clichés they use.

All of those, and more, are things that you might get from a teacher other than just technique related stuff...but a few of them you can get without needing a teacher too.

The thing is, "make music" doesn't mean much by itself...and once you start to break it down - once the teacher has to describe to you either why what you play is not musical or what you should do to make music, then it becomes "technical" or "technique" related.

It has to. If it didn't then you wouldn't be learning to play the piano, you be learning the theory of playing it or becoming some kind of musicologist - something which Neuhaus describes in "The art of piano playing"

Stuff like "timing of notes, length of notes, volume of notes, how you move from one note to the next" -  these [and other things] are what creates the music, even if they look like issues about technique.

The other issue with technique is avoiding injury from playing.

In fact that is my problem. As I've said, I can pick up a piece, learn the notes and play them - job done, except that it sounds crap - or, if you like, unmusical. If it didn't, I wouldn't have a problem, except for my injury.

How do you get from being able to play the notes unmusically, to making music, if not via technique?

Much of what is written is then just semantics. It's patently obvious that, ultimately, what changes to change the sound you make is the way you move your body - and specifically your arms. That's simple fact, as that is the interface with the instrument.

Some will argue though that you need to change your mind, some will argue that you just need to imagine beautiful sounds and it's those things that change your arms and make the piano make those sounds you imagined.

Whatever, as I said, those arguments aren't worth having I want to know the technique to use to make music [and to avoid arm pain too, but I assume that is part of the same thing anyway] if it's different for every combination of notes, then coming up with some specific notes for context, is a trivial task.

If someone put hanon in front of me, or if they put a piece of music, or if they said, like Chopin might, "play B major scale"  my question, how do I play those notes, would remain - the only differences would be the specifics - the length of note(s), the dynamics, the pitch and so on. But I have no more idea how to play C than I do F#, nor how to play the first bar of Chopin's E minor prelude, or the 2nd bar, or the 3rd...and so on.

Of course a teacher might adopt a position where they want you to play them anyway and then they'll correct what they see as wrong.

Either way around, whether a teacher, as some do, believes he can say [or video] what is correct, or you have a teacher, perhaps more like Marik described, who believes he watches a student first and then can say what is wrong with it and start to correct it. The implication is that there is some correct way or method to it - that's what I want to know - what this correct way or method is..and it seems that most either don't know or can't describe it, and think I should find someone who does - which is what "find a good teacher" means.

But as I say, that might as well be "The answer is written in a book at the top of Mt. Everest, go and fetch it"

[general disarray]

Oh, I don't think you have to go Everest to find it.

You complain of pain in your arm, yes?  Maybe your technique is NOT flawed.  Perhaps you have a neurological complaint?  Have you checked that out?  Really, any second-rate teacher could watch you playing a scale and determine if you are unconsciously applying tension to your exertion.  A tense hand and arm are simple to spot.  And if your hand and arm feel hard and rigid, voila!  Self-diagnosis.

But, you sound quite intelligent and self-aware, so I'm sure these obvious signs -- including teacher observations -- have ruled out an obvious ruinous technical approach.

So, I, therefore, propose a neurological problem.  Perhaps a microscopic tumor on some nerve fiber?

If not neurological, then perhaps psychiatric?  Psychotherapy may uncover the problem. 

No one can say, "this is how you must depress the key to play the piano."  That's absurd.  The best we can say is:  You place your finger on the key.  You take a deep breath.  You let the weight of the finger touch the key surface.  You then let the arm weight move behind the finger.  You make the finger rigid for a tiny split second.  And, then, you find the key is depressed and a sound emanates.  Soft if the stroke has little weight behind it.  Loud if much weight is behind it.

You say you can't play rhythmically even.  Can you walk around a room in even strides?  Can you nod your head to the beating of your heart?  Can you clap your hands to this rhythm?  Can you bang your head against a wall in even blows to this rhythm? 

If you can, well, channel that to your fingers and just do it.

If you cannot do any of the above, then you must admit you are neither musical nor physically coordinated.  Your talents, therefore, lie elsewhere.

Perhaps as a writer documenting the common human complaint of frustration.  Your work would be most welcome to fellow suffers.  And helping them, you will find use in this world.

It's not necessary to be a pianist to have worth in this life.

But, I'm sure you know that. 

[pianowolfi]

my teacher always says you must make music to learn music. on cooking classes you learn how to cook by cooking first of all and cutting boiling spicing techniques are taught as you cook not before or on their own.

Very good and simple comparison. I agree For sure some pianists would "die of hunger" 

[db05]

I have been interested in this thread for a while now, and I have some comments/ questions.

etcetra/ leachim,

As a late starter, I can relate to your condition, though I am still in beginner level (so in some ways I can relate more to leachim than anyone else in this thread). This is just a theory, but we may have the same basic problem with technique. This doesn't include the psychology that you may be stressing/ thinking too much (will talk more on that later). Piano technique is all about coordination, isn't it? I find myself memorizing pieces, how they sound like and/or what the notes are, and I still can't play them. So it is not thinking too much, rather, the playing cannot keep up with my thoughts. It doesn't help that I listen to a lot of classical music in my course, and that my classmates are at a higher level than I am.

Yes, I've been accused by my teachers of "thinking too much" while playing, but what else can I do? Rely of muscle memory without a bit of thinking and get injured? Focus on sight reading to the metronome while sacrificing memory and the chances of expression? See, there are so many things to think about...

Most people get the technique down first and foremost. Coordination is easy for common people. It's true, standing (among other everyday things) is harder than piano playing. But I was almost 4 when I learned to speak. I was around 10 when I learned to tie my shoelaces. I always hold a pen the wrong way. I often bump into things when I'm not careful (even in my own room). I have terrible posture, on and off the piano. Clearly, motor skills/ coordination are not my thing. So I move differently, behave differently, learn differently. My teachers weren't aware of that, and use a one-size-fits-all method. It is frustrating, and I try not to think of my classmates' progress. But when I hear good music from recordings, I cannot help but feel bad... The music is the end we strive for, after all.

Do you have similar experiences? How did/ do you cope with this?

[db05]

(continued...)

marik,

I have to admit I am a fan. You seem very knowledgable. You are one of the teachers I wish I had. You're right, nothing can substitute a good teacher, and I wonder how you'd deal with me. Or leachim if either of us were your student.

It's easy to say things like, maybe it's like this, try this, try that, look for a good teacher, etc. But it's so hard to do! And it's even harder to know if you're doing right... until you get injured and you're sure you're doing something wrong. Great players are few and far between. That's why I love recordings. Good teachers are few and far between. That's why I love this forum. At most, it makes me aware that there is so much to piano playing and music making that I do not understand. How to practice and how to actually play, I have no idea. All I've been doing so far is just trial and error, feeling if my hands and arms hurt, and if it sounds okay.

On a side note, I asked one of my teachers for tips, and he just handed me something he got from a website that I've also checked out. Bummer.

[etcetra]

db05,

I can tell you right now that hanon and other exercises like that were the reason i got injured.. i don't trust any teacher that requires students to do hanon.  What does hannon accomplish that you can't through learning actual music?  I would strongly urge you to stop doing hanon and anything else that is hurting your hands, and talk to your teacher about it.. in fact i would recommend that you find a different teacher, piano playing is not supposed to be painful. period.

I am trying a lot of things that marik and others have suggested, and I think one thing that helped me a lot was to focus on the music and not so much on the technique.. It seems like in the last couple of weeks the things that used to be so difficult are getting easier and easier.. I noticed how i was micromanaging everything, and how i didn't trust myself in learing the pieces.  I guess.. the best way i can describe it.. i remember it was really difficult learning the bike for me, it took me about 2 weeks to learn, and well, in the end i realized that all i needed to do is let things flow..

Another thing that helped me was that i can have so much progress in a day.. in the end if i see noticiable improvement on whatever i am working  at the end of the day, i am happy about it. 

I may be simplyfing things here... but i think one thing that helped me the most is the change in attitude.. I remember when i was in high school, i improved really fast, playing the piano was so enjoyable back then , it was never painful.. for me it was matter of unlearning a lot of crap i picked up in college.

[db05]

Thanks for the reply etcetra. Too bad we have to "unlearn a lot of crap" instead of get it right the first time. Focusing on the music, well, sometimes that hurts me more than any physical injury. 

Still waiting for leachim and marik to comment.

[dozapp]

Ok,OK,Ok, that was alot of posts to read through. I had a similar problem with teachers.  My teacher whom I started with (at age 11) was great.  She was the accompanist to the local opera choir and youth choir.  I studied with her for 3 years.  At that time I was very interested in the classical genre, but didn't like to practice method books. I kept asking her to teach me classical music, but she always told me not yet (i wasn't good enough).  So it was just method books those 3 years we did levels 1-5 of faber and I thought i wasnt good enough to play classical music because it was just harder.  Now she dropped all her students for a position at a elementary school teaching music.  Little did I know that this was one of the best things that could ever happen to me. 
            We began searching for a new teacher and we found one that taught after school at the middle school I was attending, after school of course.  She also had a position at the university teaching piano.  However, she had no open slots.  So I decided to wait for a slot to free up.  During the time it took I went to the local music store and looked through the classical music section.  At that time it was my dream to play classical music.  I picked out a Mozart Rondo in D major, and decided i would surprise my new teacher by learning it for our first lesson. 
            A slot freed up and I began lessons with this new teacher.  She was obvioulsy very talented but after a couple months it was clear she wasn't the teacher for me.   However this teacher also didn't want me to play classical music.  I apparently wasn't good enough to. So I kept playing my faber books and we finished 5-6, and kept working on my mozart rondo (its actually a big rondo). Finally I got to play Fur Elise, and finished my mozart rondo 4 years into my piano career.  However this teacher only lasted a year as I did something naughty and was expelled from that school.  Dont ask ! 
          So my father asked around for new teachers.  We found one in our neighborhood.  She was the nicest teacher you will ever meet.  Here is where I began my real plunge into the classical world.  Clementi sonatina, beethoven sonatina, kuhlau sonatina, you name the sonatina I played it here.     But to me they were just sonatinas.  I wanted to play scherzos, caprices, etudes, concertos.  It all looked so far away. But eh.  She didnt want to teach me.  It was all about fundamentals to all of these teachers.  So about 6 months into this new teacher, while I was learning these sonatinas with this teacher I decided to learn other stuff behind the teachers back.  I started with a Chopin Nocturne  9-2 ( he was my favorite composer at the time).  Then in 3 short months I rattled off minute waltz, rachmaninhov prelude 3-2, and then chopin etude 10-5.  I did this through all sheer will.  I would sit down at my piano and play it until i got it right.  Every day i would set goals for my self like learn half a page a day.  It was surprisingly more fulfilling then any other piano experience i have ever had and i will always remember those 6 months. 
          It was time to get a new teacher once again ( the old one lasted 9 months).  I saw my self needing a better teacher, one that would understand where I was coming from.  I emailed the head of the music department and they gave me many choices.  I was thrilled at the level of these teachers.  I met with one and really liked the interview.  I have been her student ever since (2 years now).  Right now im learning things like Scherzo 2, Rach etude 39-6, and appasionata (movement 3 for now well see how it goes). 
 

[dozapp]

oops, accidently hit post


what im trying to say is that you should aspire to your goal yourself or keep switching teachers untill you find one that will help you do so

[m]

(continued...)

marik,

I have to admit I am a fan. You seem very knowledgable. You are one of the teachers I wish I had. You're right, nothing can substitute a good teacher, and I wonder how you'd deal with me. Or leachim if either of us were your student.

It's easy to say things like, maybe it's like this, try this, try that, look for a good teacher, etc. But it's so hard to do! And it's even harder to know if you're doing right... until you get injured and you're sure you're doing something wrong. Great players are few and far between. That's why I love recordings. Good teachers are few and far between. That's why I love this forum. At most, it makes me aware that there is so much to piano playing and music making that I do not understand. How to practice and how to actually play, I have no idea. All I've been doing so far is just trial and error, feeling if my hands and arms hurt, and if it sounds okay.

On a side note, I asked one of my teachers for tips, and he just handed me something he got from a website that I've also checked out. Bummer.

Db05,

Really, how can I know what I'd do and deal with you, Leachim, or anybody else before I heard you and see for my self what is the problem (if there is any, to start with, when our lessons would be just a conversations about music and its interpretation)?

Most likely, I'd just listen to you first, then asked you what you thought and what you intended to say with your music and then we would just start working and thinking together...
Every person is unique and what works for one, for another can be dreadful.

From my experience, the all technical problems are divided to 3 kinds of problems:
1) Physical (usually tension)
2) Mental-phsycological (some kind of "overheating", or sense of responsibility, or desire to excell, or undermining yourself, in fact, choke you and don't let your musical ideas to come out)
3) Musical (not realizing music image and what you want to say)

It takes a lot of observation and thinking to find the source of the problem and once you found it, it is already 95% of problem solution.
It takes a lot of wisdom to find that specific and the only way, which leads to very special sense of trust and bound between teacher and student.
I have to admit, there were quite a few times I failed...

Best, M

[db05]

I have to admit, there were quite a few times I failed...

  You are quite modest. 

oops, accidently hit post


what im trying to say is that you should aspire to your goal yourself or keep switching teachers untill you find one that will help you do so

Haha, it's fine with me, an interesting story. Have more hope in finding good teachers now. 4 piano teachers so far, not counting the time before I quit as a child... Self-teaching is not very advisable imo. At least not at beginner level (like me).

Welcome to the forum. 

[leahcim]

You complain of pain in your arm, yes?  Maybe your technique is NOT flawed.  Perhaps you have a neurological complaint?  Have you checked that out?  Really, any second-rate teacher could watch you playing a scale and determine if you are unconsciously applying tension to your exertion.

Well, I don't normally complain about it so much as it's relevant, so I mention it.

But we've done this. My arm pain was caused by playing the piano. I'm not mentally ill nor physically ill -in any way that, over the last 5 years, would have explained why I haven't made much, if any progress playing the piano.

I like House as much as the next man, but as much for his piano playing [which is, ironically given the context here, real] and superlative acting and the characterisation of objectivity.

"13"'s very pretty too I don't see why anyone would copy the differentials though? That's pretty formulaic stuff and all made up. "What causes, crappy piano playing, a pain in the arm" Perhaps it's lupus?

But, you sound quite intelligent and self-aware

Yes, but this is a mistake. My piano playing sounds like I'm dumb, useless, stupid and moronic. I want to fix that - because I am. If writing English makes you sound intelligent, well, fine, but this intelligence is not helping me play the piano.

I have absolutely no clue. No idea how to play the piano. Really. This isn't through lack of information, lack of going to teachers nor a lack of trying though. Far from it.

I have no idea whether moving my arm / fingers / wrist / legs / anything else in one or more particular ways or another is correct or not. Nor whether imagining one thing or another will help. And it's not so much "is the way I play correct" more "are any of the numerous ways I might have tried in an effort to find out, correct?"

I know I don't do it properly primarily because of the sound, and also because it doesn't feel comfortable and, for my right arm, actually causes pain.

Also I know, because I realise I simply have no idea how to play.

That's to say, although I've read / watched and studied hundreds of videos, posts, books - if someone asked me how you were supposed to play the piano [or even something more specific], or asked what you would do to learn or asked me how you can improve at piano playing. I genuinely have no clue and no positive experience from which to give an answer.

If you said "practise makes you better" then, although that sounds correct, I have no experience of that. Practise makes no difference at all.

I might have some general, typically useless and empty, advice like "relax" or "practise"

I might dodge the question by suggesting someone else knows like "find a good teacher"

Or I might blather away some pseudo-Buddhist / jedi claptrap about "finding your own way. Don't try, do"

Or I might, as I did, post a link to what someone else says it is.

But in truth, I don't have the first clue how to play the piano. Not any aspect. I can't play one note. Oh, of course I can walk up to a piano and make it make a noise, but I have absolutely no idea how to play music on the piano...no idea how to play one note in a way that the resulting sound is under my control, let alone a number of notes to create music.

And I have no knowledge of anyone who does know. Least of all anyone that advertises themselves as a "piano teacher" and lives anywhere near me.

So, I'm either not intelligent enough, or being intelligent simply doesn't help.

Musically speaking? Well, there's no point at all where I've reached a stage with playing even just one note, or more, where discussing or trying any "interpretations" would make any logical sense. Because there's no correlation between how I might expect or want a piece of music to sound and how, when I move my body and touch the piano, the noise produced by the piano actually sounds.

That's to say, regard Lang lang sat with Barenboim

&feature=related here, [don't misinterpret me here, I'm not expecting to play as well as either, it's just an example of teaching] but what they are doing here is just a fantasy to me. e.g How Barenboim plays a short extract, perhaps just one chord in one way, and then in another. How Lang Lang plays one way and then changes the way he plays.

Now, perhaps to Marik or to someone else, one way is better than the other, but I'm not even close to playing the poor way. And not just with a piece that difficult [well, impossible for me to play] with any piece, or with just one note.

I'd love to be able to play in such a way that Barenboim could teach me something -  but in truth, he's teaching someone who can already play the piano. Albeit, at the end of the teaching the student probably thinks they have only just learnt to play it Someone like myself, as I've said to Marik, we aren't even in the same world.

I will probably never play the piano in that sense - certainly not before I discover how to physically play notes.

No one can say, "this is how you must depress the key to play the piano."  That's absurd.  The best we can say is

Heh, you say it's absurd but then go on to give your explanation I've read / watched and tried many different ones. Including a few that are on this forum. "arm weight" - means  nothing to me. No more than the explanations that say what sounds like [but might not be] the complete opposite, that you should hold your arms up [e.g see the fundamental action site]

I have no idea which were right, whether I was doing what they said correctly or not, nor, I guess, whether the crappy noise I make is the result of not doing it properly or just something else, like not imagining properly or something folks that like to split problems playing the piano into technique and musical would say is "musical"

If arm pain and a horrible noise could be down to using a correct technique, then I guess my technique could be correct. Except that, if good technique should give you the ability to, for example, play a note in a certain way, deliberately, then I can't see how I can have good technique without realising it and a tumour.

If you can, well, channel that to your fingers and just do it.

How? When I play it sounds rhythmically and dynamically sloppy....it sounds like, well, it sounds like I've never played the piano or the piece before.

It's not necessary to be a pianist to have worth in this life.

I don't want worth, whatever that is. I want to play the piano. If I didn't then I wouldn't be worrying about not being able to do it. I don't see how stopping playing, which would just mean I still couldn't play and never would, solves anything.

Now you say perhaps I'm talentless and never will play. If that was the case, fair enough, but I'm not sure, but you offer so many "perhaps" from stuff you've heard watching House and so on, that you evidently don't know either.

[danny elfboy]

Well, I don't normally complain about it so much as it's relevant, so I mention it. ....

You seem to suffer from a bad case of paralysis by analysis.
And internet doesn't help that for sure.
How much time do you waste everyday reading online pages and forums?
How much time have you wasted reading books on piano technique?

You're not any longer absorbing information as "mild hints" but as "hard facts to apply" and of couse since they're all contradicting each other you're too.

The cure is actually very simple.
Start spending no more than 15 minutes a day on the internet and stop reading books.
Use all the time you save to start at the piano from scratch.

Pretend you know nothing and you've never read anything about the piano and spend most of your time to form a relationship with the instrument. Just sit and find a balance. If necessary spend 10 days just to find the correct way to seat or to develop the sensation of feeling at home when seating at the piano.

The start producing sounds like you would if you were 3 years old. Analyze the quality of the sound and the quality of your muscular effort. If necessary spend 2 months just doing this till you find the right way to activate those keys, the one that feels effortless and make you feel in control. Spending weeks on these scratch foundations means stopping wasting time online, stopping reading contradicting nonsense of books or ebooks and stopping practicing whatever piece you've been practicing lately.

It is simple.

You need to stop this addiction to contradicting information typical of internet addiction and time wasted on a virtual fake reality that tends to attract psychotics and obsessive compulsives for the most part.

You need to stop asking others what is the right way at the piano. Instead use the time you have saved by dropping all those toxic addictions to seek the right way for yourself and your own body. If that takes 6 months of nothing but sitting and staring at the wall so be it.

You need to spend very little time on the things you can feel you already tackle and understand with success and you need to spend lot of time on the things that you clearly see you have problems with (and believe me, when you stop spending so much time in front of that infernal pc you'll get a keener sense of what your body needs)
For example some people have problems with keeping their shoulders flexible rather than tense but have no problem maintaining a flexible wrist level with the knuckles. The need to spend weeks on shoulders flexibility alone and 1 minute on wrist flexibility. Other people have no problem with shoulders flexibility but can't maintain their wrist flexible and have pain when trying to level it to the knuckles. They need to spend 1 minute on shoulders flexibility and weeks on wrist flexibility.

[db05]

The cure is actually very simple.
Start spending no more than 15 minutes a day on the internet and stop reading books.
Use all the time you save to start at the piano from scratch.

I don't find that simple at all, considering I have a course to finish, and dreams of being a professional teacher. But if leachim has not set a definite goal/ deadline, I would recommend it too.

[danny elfboy]

I don't find that simple at all, considering I have a course to finish, and dreams of being a professional teacher. But if leachim has not set a definite goal/ deadline, I would recommend it too.

The point is: even if your goal is being a teacher, starting from scratch might be the only solution. So that might mean delaying your goal-based practice by few months but reaching your goal while the other alternative is saving those months but never reaching the goal.

It's like when you have high fever and you don't want to stay at home because there's something you don't want to miss. Going out will certainly allow you not to miss that evening but will worsen your condition and you'll have to stay at home for a couple of weeks more, whereas missing that evening might means getting well in a couple of days. I think it's still better an hen tomorrow than an egg today.

If you don't want to start from scratch then decrease the work load and do a little very well done and pondered than a lot superficially. Clearly such path can't be sustained.
If you have problems now and you don't solve them (and this means prioritizing them at the expense of the program) when things will get more advanced and there will be more demands and expectation you won't be able to go on. It's like being a gymanstic at the first level and already have big pain. You must stop and solve them, you just can't go on.
If you have pain at the first level when you will be at national competition you'll break yourself in two.

[db05]

The point is: even if your goal is being a teacher, starting from scratch might be the only solution. So that might mean delaying your goal-based practice by few months but reaching your goal while the other alternative is saving those months but never reaching the goal.

It's like when you have high fever and you don't want to stay at home because there's something you don't want to miss. Going out will certainly allow you not to miss that evening but will worsen your condition and you'll have to stay at home for a couple of weeks more, whereas missing that evening might means getting well in a couple of days.

I see your point about starting from scratch.
But it seemed to me like

staying at home for a couple of days = rest
sitting and staring at a wall (or piano) for a couple of months = coma.

I think it's okay to just keep going, playing piano even for a few minutes everyday. The fire will come back, and by the time it does, I'd have a regular routine.