A precious teaching moment

[hyrst]

I just wanted to share how lovely it was  tonight when I was teaching my clever 6 year old student.  She has recently learnt Chopin's C# minor Nocturne.  She played it tonight, with tears in her eyes.  It was such a beautiful moment.  I am amazed that one so little and young can play with so much passion and maturity.  It brings tears to my own eyes.

[quantum]

You have a 6 yr old who can play that?   

[jabbz]

A 6 year old really can't relate to that piece at all.

[pianowolfi]

A 6 year old really can't relate to that piece at all.

Well, obviously this 6 year old can 

[jabbz]

I'm unconvinced. Just 'cause you can play doesn't mean you can relate. It's a remarkable story one way or the other, but I just don't understand it at all.

[hyrst]

Well,  Jabz, I did say that I was amazed myself, didn't I?!! 

She is an exceptional little girl.  I have seen young children who have learnt difficult pieces, but she is something special that I have never seen before - even on YouTube where a few children play this piece.  I guess you would have to see it to believe it - but it is so much joy to me.

I thought maybe some poeple could relate to the satisfaction when a young student can really become one with the music.  It is a wonderful experience as a teacher.

[jabbz]

I have no doubt she plays it! I just can't see how a child can relate to the music, thats all really. I wish her all the best with it anyway!

[dora96]

Well,  Jabz, I did say that I was amazed myself, didn't I?!! 

She is an exceptional little girl.  I have seen young children who have learnt difficult pieces, but she is something special that I have never seen before - even on YouTube where a few children play this piece.  I guess you would have to see it to believe it - but it is so much joy to me.

I thought maybe some poeple could relate to the satisfaction when a young student can really become one with the music.  It is a wonderful experience as a teacher.

Could you tell me how do you teach this piece to such as young age? I am always wondering how does she get the coordination with right hand and left hand, some note 3 over 2. I am adult, I just learned by myself, it was even hard for me the arpeggio. Could you share your teaching method and technique for young children? Most my students are from 6 to 10 years old, they don't even understand how to read the note in the upper staff, or even the concept in octave staff. Thanks

[faulty_damper]

I have no doubt she plays it! I just can't see how a child can relate to the music, thats all really. I wish her all the best with it anyway!

And I can't see how a 6 year old can even speak a language let alone make music.  They are obviously too imature to be able to communicate.  They have to be at least 16 years old to do that.  I'm being sarcastic.   

[jabbz]

A 6 year old can't relate to depression, sexual impotence or George Sand, things poor Chopin had to live with. That's my trouble with it, but it's a child, superficiality is to be expected.

[slobone]

A 6 year old really can't relate to that piece at all.

Not even Mozart?

[jabbz]

What about him?   

[faulty_damper]

A 6 year old can't relate to depression, sexual impotence or George Sand, things poor Chopin had to live with. That's my trouble with it, but it's a child, superficiality is to be expected.

Preconceptions blind.

[hyrst]

The wonder of a truly brilliant piece of music is that the emotional content goes  far deeper than any one composer's personal circumstances. 

[dorfmouse]

A 6 year old can't relate to depression, sexual impotence or George Sand, things poor Chopin had to live with. That's my trouble with it, but it's a child, superficiality is to be expected.

I've not experienced these either but I relate to this piece deeply.

Six year olds know all about frustration, rage, disappointment, sadness, yearning .... hopefully also tenderness, joy, love ........

[jabbz]

I respectfully digress. Children are not mature. That is why they are children. They can be magnificently musical, but they are not mature (that's because they are children). Some children can be wonderfully mature, but maturity comes from life experience, something, again, children don't have...'cause they're children. 

However, this is simply my opinion on the matter, just my views from my experience, it should be no means be taken as fact, it's all relative.

[hyrst]

We could discuss endlessly our own personal opinions about the emotional potential of children.  Gifted children are known to feel things deeply and to be extremely aware of the experiences of those in the world around them.  Other children may well be the same without expressing it as clearly. 

Jabz, what do you honestly think we stand to gain from such debates?  I can't see any point in it.  Noone is going to change their mind about what they think on this issue.  It is totally irrelevant to my purpose in posting and offers no encouragement.  Are you even a teacher?

Regardless of what this young girl felt or why, I was moved when I saw the depth of feeling on her face.  She was touched by the music, with an expression on her face I could not describe.  She appeared to be lost in the music.  She played the piece very expressively and musically.  She had tears in her eyes.  Hearing and seeing, I had tears in my eyes.  She played in a way that, for whatever reason, also moved my feelings.  It was an amazing moment - a great source of joy and encouragement as a teacher. 

I was so happy after that lesson, I simply wanted to share my happiness with other teachers.  (I don't have others physically around me who I can share these things with, so i went to the forum.)  It would be nice to hear from others their experiences so we can encourage one another.  I was hoping to find people who would enjoy this with me, not try to take it away.

I would love to hear other people's experiences about similar precious teaching moments.

[chopininov]

Maybe she had on owie.

[slobone]

I don't disagree that kids that age can have profound emotions, I've just always been skeptical that that has much to do with playing the piano (at any age). I'd be more concerned about musical maturity, which I think takes years to develop. Most child prodigies are technical marvels who don't know how to express anything very original...

[omei]

I would love to hear other people's experiences about similar precious teaching moments.

I would like to share with you a story about myself working with a seven-year-old girl, Emily. It was beautiful to watch how the music touched her heart when she was introduced to Beethoven’s Romance (the second movement of the Sonatina in G major).  She liked the idea that the music meant love, and tried to think of “somebody” she loved.  All of a sudden, she was in tears.  Then I was told that, Emily had been saddened by the death of her guinea pig.  It frustrated her also because she wasn’t able to say goodbye to her pet.  Poor Emily, she had been in distraught more than anybody knew. I promised her that, the music could make her feel better, and it did. She really took the Romance seriously, and learned it by heart in a very short time. Needless to say, it was a dedication to somebody she loved. And her interpretation really touched my heart.

[hyrst]

Thank you, Omei, for sharing such a lovely, though sad, experience.

I love these moments in teaching. 

When I was young, I dedicated Theme  from Love Story to my Grandmother on her death.  I did it secretly, privately - but it has lasted, something meaningful that changed my relationship with music and its significance.  I hope that this experience results in your young student falling in love with music forever, if she hasn't already. 

[jxb10]

She may not have fully understand or comprehended the type of peice she was playing, but she was obviously moved by the peice and that says a lot about a 6 year old. You can tell she will have the passion to become a great player!

[akonow]

I respectfully digress. Children are not mature. That is why they are children. They can be magnificently musical, but they are not mature (that's because they are children). Some children can be wonderfully mature, but maturity comes from life experience, something, again, children don't have...'cause they're children. 

However, this is simply my opinion on the matter, just my views from my experience, it should be no means be taken as fact, it's all relative.

Clearly you haven't been around many children. I know children who cry when they aren't hugged every few minutes. How often do adults do that? If children are driven to tears when they aren't shown love consistently, I'm sure a musical piece can easily convey something very similar to them.

[alpacinator1]

I just wanted to share how lovely it was  tonight when I was teaching my clever 6 year old student.  She has recently learnt Chopin's C# minor Nocturne.  She played it tonight, with tears in her eyes.  It was such a beautiful moment.  I am amazed that one so little and young can play with so much passion and maturity.  It brings tears to my own eyes.

Very funny. I'm assuming you mean his Opus Posthumous nocturne? Because I'm 14 and I could barely play that piece. The idea of a six-year-old who is short of being a ultra-prodigy is incredible.

(and not incredible in a sense of amazing, incredible in a sense of "not credible".)

[hyrst]

(and not incredible in a sense of amazing, incredible in a sense of "not credible".)
[/quote]

Maybe you need to broaden your mind

[dora96]

I think it doesn't matter what music the child plays advance or not advance. If the child truly learn it and study it and put it into practice and truly own it.  The child will know his/her feeling and emotional to the music.

just like this girl https://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR2KkA1JlFs&feature=related

The hours and days she must practice it and put everything into her heart because she believes she can do it and the more she believes the more miracle she can perform. Miracle does exist in music. 

[alpacinator1]

Firstly, there is a difference between age 6 and 8. Yes, I suppose miracles can happen in music, but if anyone could play that piece at age 6 or 8, shouldn't I be playing Liszt Hungarian Rhapsodies and the like rather than Beethoven's op 79 (which is what I'm currently learning)?

[hyrst]

There are differences between individuals and there are also limitations we place on ourselves - because of doubt, time, understanding,  etc. 

Just because a young person can do gymnastic tricks well enough to get into the Olympics doesn't mean I should be able to do them just because I am older.  I don't have the strength, agility, ease, etc that has enabled some amazing little girls to enter high level competitions after comparatively few years of training (e.g. the Romanian girl quite some years ago who won gold when she was 9 years old). 

Also there is the issue of believing in miracles.  My little student decided she was going to be as good as me 'really soon' from the time she started at 4.  She is fortunate to have the natural brain and physical grasp of things to support her wish.  She believed she could do it and she will surpass me.  I sit back amazed,  and sometimes a little scared, as I watch these fingers run wild or hands drop onto keys in a way that looks so easy it's like a little child just playing - and yet, somehow, her hands are actually falling into the right notes with complete expression and control - although she makes it look so easy now that it doesn't even look like she is controlling what she is doing.  Only the sound proves she is. 

She believes she can do it, she believes playing the piano is easy - and she actually can do it.  This does not ignore the fact that she puts all her heart and imagination into her playing and that she practices for 1 1/2 hours every day as routine. 

I don't know how she does it, but I have the child playing in front of me as proof - she makes me wonder why there are things I struggle to get right.  She is very fortunate and I am glad she loves music enough to want to develop her talent.  She wants to be a professional performer when she grows up.  It will be  a thrill if she succeeds.

As for the Nocturne, I never told her it was hard or that it was an advanced piece or anything like that - just that it was beautiful and she had to feel everything and listen really well.  She spent some time figuring out the key signature and accidentals.  She played the ornaments as easily as any notes.  We practiced the scale ornaments and the descending ornament so she memorised the patterns.  They made sense to her.  She never thought of it as hard.  We spent more time bringing out just the right sense of Rubato and tone than we spent trying to play the notes.  I never tell her something is hard - just sometimes we have to take things a little at a time and let if grow like a flowering tree that needs a little care and water regularly. 

But, I too wish I could find this source of miracles.  I am privileged to be her teacher.

[alpacinator1]

There are differences between individuals and there are also limitations we place on ourselves - because of doubt, time, understanding,  etc. 

Just because a young person can do gymnastic tricks well enough to get into the Olympics doesn't mean I should be able to do them just because I am older.  I don't have the strength, agility, ease, etc that has enabled some amazing little girls to enter high level competitions after comparatively few years of training (e.g. the Romanian girl quite some years ago who won gold when she was 9 years old). 

Also there is the issue of believing in miracles.  My little student decided she was going to be as good as me 'really soon' from the time she started at 4.  She is fortunate to have the natural brain and physical grasp of things to support her wish.  She believed she could do it and she will surpass me.  I sit back amazed,  and sometimes a little scared, as I watch these fingers run wild or hands drop onto keys in a way that looks so easy it's like a little child just playing - and yet, somehow, her hands are actually falling into the right notes with complete expression and control - although she makes it look so easy now that it doesn't even look like she is controlling what she is doing.  Only the sound proves she is. 

She believes she can do it, she believes playing the piano is easy - and she actually can do it.  This does not ignore the fact that she puts all her heart and imagination into her playing and that she practices for 1 1/2 hours every day as routine. 

I don't know how she does it, but I have the child playing in front of me as proof - she makes me wonder why there are things I struggle to get right.  She is very fortunate and I am glad she loves music enough to want to develop her talent.  She wants to be a professional performer when she grows up.  It will be  a thrill if she succeeds.

As for the Nocturne, I never told her it was hard or that it was an advanced piece or anything like that - just that it was beautiful and she had to feel everything and listen really well.  She spent some time figuring out the key signature and accidentals.  She played the ornaments as easily as any notes.  We practiced the scale ornaments and the descending ornament so she memorised the patterns.  They made sense to her.  She never thought of it as hard.  We spent more time bringing out just the right sense of Rubato and tone than we spent trying to play the notes.  I never tell her something is hard - just sometimes we have to take things a little at a time and let if grow like a flowering tree that needs a little care and water regularly. 

But, I too wish I could find this source of miracles.  I am privileged to be her teacher.

OK. Here's my deal: I have very large hands for my age (covers the physical aspect), am of above average intelligence (covers the mental aspect), practice for AT LEAST 1.5 hours every day, think about music constantly, and always wish to improve.

So, I suppose if I believe that I can play Gaspard de la Nuit, I can? I'm afraid that's not how the world works. It would be nice if it was, but it's not.

I'm sorry to sound so bitter and resentful, but that's what's on my mind. 

[hyrst]

I do understand.  I wish I knew what she had, too, then I could bottle it and give it away!

My hands are only a little larger than my student's - I have small hands for an adult - but they are larger.  I practice 3 to 6 hours every day.  I am not satisfied with my playing standard, but am doing  fine.  I still don't get why some things just don't seem to work easily for my fingers.  At the same time, I am watching my little 6 year old student catching up and playing pieces I thought were tough when I was much older than she is. 

I do  think confidence is part of it.  She looks at a fast passage or leaps and such and thinks "that looks like fun", but I have learnt to look and think "I wonder how I am going to play through that".  While she rarely hesitates, I know one of my big problems is I pull my hand away from scale passages and things (i.e. I work against my own hand and the music).  I have spent a lot of energy worrying about if I am playing things 'the right way', but she is happy if she hears the music and changes if she needs to rather than becuase she expects she has to before she 'gets it right'. 

But, there is something different with her.  I have other 6 year old students who think they are the best players around and they don't have a hope of being past grade 1.  They don't have the movements that would support them, and they don't have the ease and fluency.  Again, I don't know why - the same teacher but very different learners.

My student is being assessed this Thursday.  To tell you the truth, both her mother and I are kind of afraid that we are going to be told something like we are imagining it - I have this fear it's llike a mass hallucination   I don't understand how she can do this.  I don't have any easy answers, not really.  I'm even so doubtful myself that I am wondering if I will wake up from this dream.  I am hoping for a bit more understanding after this Thursday.

[alpacinator1]

Alright, fair enough. But I'm sure it's more than "dedication and motivation". This girl is clearly a child prodigy.

And to address the part of your post where you said she "looks at a fast passage or leaps and such and thinks 'that looks like fun'"...

Well, I think I know what you're talking about, but I'm sure there's much more to it than that. For example, the other day I was sightreading through the piece Fantasie in D Minor by Mozart. I was doing just fine, until the really fast part. I hesitated for a split second, but then I decided it was better not to dawdle and dove right into it. And you know what it sounded like? Crap.

[hyrst]

I know a little, but possilby important, difference between what you were saying about sight-reading the Fantasie and how my student learnt the Nocturne.  It is an example, of just what I have been saying about confidence. 

She did not expect to play all the right notes the first time she read the ornaments.  We stopped to work out what they were, what were the patterns in fingers and notes.  It wasn't until we had done this that she would be able to make sense of it, but it was sensible and flowed well once we had figured it out.  (BTW, I don't have her learning pieces yet that have less apparent logic in the notes, ornaments or fingering patterns.  Her reading isn't up to it yet - but she is not playing from memory, more from common sense and how certian distances or patterns look and feel.)  As much as possible, I try to approach pieces with my students as pictures and patterns to identify.

In contrast, you tried to play a section of the Fantasie that was too detailed or fast for you to follow instantaneously.  The result is at different points either your brain or your fingers can't keep up to the tempo demands.  If you decide to play this piece properly, the first thing you will need to overcome is the idea that you made a mess playing that bit.  This subtle mental approach makes a great difference to the learning and development of such pieces.

This is something I have to learn for myself, too.  I do believe, though, that it is an important idea.

[thierry13]

Very funny. I'm assuming you mean his Opus Posthumous nocturne? Because I'm 14 and I could barely play that piece. The idea of a six-year-old who is short of being a ultra-prodigy is incredible.

(and not incredible in a sense of amazing, incredible in a sense of "not credible".)

You are the very funny one. I started the piano at 14 and that nocturne was my first piece. And, yes, I did play it well. I can't see how you can spend 1.5 hours at the piano and not being able to play this. You can see 6 years old play stuff much worse than that and play it well.

[alpacinator1]

I'm 14 (almost 15), I've been playing since I was 6, I practice anywhere from 30 minutes to 2.5 hours per day (depending on how I'm feeling). And that nocturne is too difficult for me. Got a problem with that?

[Bob]

Which nocturne is this exactly?  Can someone post a link to it on the forum here?

[hyrst]

https://www.pianostreet.com/piano_sheet_music/Chopin-1827/Nocturne-op-posth-.html?id=1827

[thierry13]

I'm 14 (almost 15), I've been playing since I was 6, I practice anywhere from 30 minutes to 2.5 hours per day (depending on how I'm feeling). And that nocturne is too difficult for me. Got a problem with that?

No, but you sure do. I simply do not believe you. That's impossible. You are either lying or a desperate case, sorry to say, but it's the truth. I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but I'm having a hard time to conceive that somebody with your experience and dedication can not play this nocturne.

[alpacinator1]

What should I be playing?

[thierry13]

Well, at least this nocturne easily. You know I wouldn't say anything if you said you rarely put some serious practice into piano, but if you say you put that much time everyday, then I can't figure how you can't play this nocturne. I have to say first that I hate the grading system, since anybody with talent can do at least 2 years of grade in one, but anyways ... After 8 years and that much practice, you should at least be able to play grade 8 pieces? That nocturne is far from being a grade 8 piece ... maybe at best 5 or 6 ? Anyways if you ask me you should be beginning to tackle your first chopin etude by now.

[hyrst]

I would say that it takes more than an average talent to pass more than a grade a year, especially for children. 

Alpacinator, if you keep up regular practice, there is a good chance that you will learn more over the next couple of years than you have in the 8 years up to now.  Progress depends more on the way music is conceptualised, how you go about learning it, and the elements included in your practice than it does on how long you spend playing the piano - although even the least efficient work is at least mental and finger exercise. 

[alpacinator1]

5 or 6? I thought it was level 7... and I generally play at level 6-7. The reason why I think it would be too hard for me is the difficult key signature and the fact that it's "musically" challenging.

Now, let me rephrase this. I practice anywhere from 30 minutes to over 2 hours per day. But that depends on how I'm feeling and how much time I have. The majority of days, it's about 45-60 minutes. I get over 2 hours maybe once a week, and 1.5 hours maybe twice a week. So I suppose my practice schedule is not as efficient as it could be.

Also, for the first several years of my training I practiced for only 10 minutes per day, which most likely accounts (at least partially) for my low skill level.

[hyrst]

Alpacinator,
I think you are doing fine.  I would be quite happy with a 14 year old student at level 6-7.  There would only be a problem with that if they had trained hard for a number of years and had stayed in one place for over 6 months.  (In that case there would be a technical hold up or most likely a conceptual issue.)  Most of the 14 year olds who are playing much higher than this are either exceptionally fast learners -  the rare ones like my little student - or have committed 3 or 4 hours intense practice over  a few years. 

It sounds to me like you enjoy music and you are progressing steadily.  You could probably do more than you are - but what does that matter?  It is of far more value that you love what you are doing because there is plenty of music at your level which is fun to play and a pleasure to listen to.  The only reason you would want to be at a higher level would be if this was not the case, if boredom led to dissatisfaction.  Clearly you are playing because you like music, not because you want to be a concert performer - so there is no need to put pressure on yourself or  take on negative messages of what you should or shouldn't be doing.  You have, I trust, many years ahead of you in which to grow and find fresh music to enjoy.  (On the other hand, if you wanted to be professional, there is still plenty of time to develop too.)

I think with the right assistance you probably could play this Nocturne - if you wanted to - but why worry about it unless that was what you wanted to play?  Yes, it is a demanding piece expressively and some of the ornamental runs are a little intimidating at first glimpse (but not really when you have worked them out).  Key signatures are a matter of mapping black and white patterns mentally.  Not really a hard task, but it can take a few days to be comfortable with.  If you wanted to play this Nocturne, you would need to 'soak' in it before learning it - get to know it, make friends with it, share its feelings.

BTW It's hard to get past the technical demands of level 7 on 45 minutes a day unless that 45 minutes is intensive and more than playing pieces beginning to end.

[lostinidlewonder]

I think it is wrong to suggest that if a student has not experienced a particular emotion in their life that they cannot express it in music (that even applies for adults). Certainly we all have an imagination, and a child has much more freedom in that than adults. The piano can be used as a tool to express our imagination, it is not necessarily a reflector of a reality we have experienced.

However I am yet to see a young child who is technically a master and have found a maximum of efficiency to their technique. Often their technique is very rough, but to most onlookers they look like masters because all the notes are hit accurately and in time. I have heard many young students play passionately and with the right feeling, but their technique has still a long way to go to represent the masters touch. No child I have ever seen can produce master technique but many hit on the emotion of a piece quite acceptably.

A child can cry when they play not because it reminds them of an emotion in their life, but because the sound encourages them to do so, where an adult might be reminded of a past experience in their life. A child has a much simpler connection to the music and certainly the music can move them to tears. I can remember when I was very young I use to cry when I played nice slow music, not because I felt sad but because the notes sounded sad. When I played loud dark sounds I would feel scared because I would think a monster might come out of the piano! A childs relationship to the emotion of a piece is very simple where an adult is much more complicated, this is not to say that one can encourage a better connection to the emotion than the other. Technically however we can start to see a big difference, an adult often has years of experience to draw upon, and years of refinement to their playing, where a child knows only one way and is in the process of developing their technical capability and control.

[hyrst]

I think you touched on the emotional side quite insightfully...
And, it is true, although my young student is very passionate and musical (and accurate) in her playing of this and other pieces, she does not yet have the strength to sound like a professional.  She is only about 5th grade technically (control and clarity), although she is playing successfully and beautifully at 7th grade now. 

I think she does have a basic emotional connection with the music.  She says she loves to play becuase of the sound.  She is able to play even more musically when given a story to help build on her understanding of the sound.  E.g., in this Nocturne she played even more passionately and masterfully when she understood that the first subject was about sadness and loneliness while the second section was about happy memories.  Her playing was transformed because she could hear waht hte music menat and then she played it like that.