Students Playing by Finger Numbers

[ridr27]

I have recently started teaching a talented / bright boy of 10 who is totally hooked on playing by finger numbers.  He plays well this way ( if you can call that playing well I guess )  He loves piano and want to continue at the level he perceives himself to be,  and not go back to square one and learn notes (of which he seems to know practically none). 

Do any of you have a good solution for getting him out of this hand position/finger number routine without turning him off? 

He is  very talented and serious minded.  If only I had had him a couple months ago.

Any suggestions??

Thank you in advance.
Rider27

[mattgreenecomposer]

I teach with finger #'s only to kids about 5-6 years old.  Those are my youngest students and to be honest I only have 3 of them as I don't like teaching really young kids unless they are extremely talented.
I associate a # with a letter.  Like in C position. C is #1, D is #2, E is #3 etc.  Once they know the letters all ten of them.  Start calling out letters for them to play. Not #s   Pick really easy repertoire. Something monophonic and something they can read well in 2 or 3 tries.

[popdog]

This is a common problem, especially with students that I have not taught from the beginning.  If the student is ambitious, I explain that to progress well note reading is crucial, and that it is easy once you get the hang of it.  Then I explain how to read notes, taking time to do this.  Then I gradually wean them off finger numbers.  If you remove them completely this will discourage the student, but if you give them pieces with progressively less finger numbers they will become independent fairly quickly. 

I question whether finger numbers are of any benefit.  I have taken on students who have been playing for 2 years that can't count or read rhythms properly, nor read notes which is frustrating.  I wonder what the hell the teacher has been doing? 

Good luck

[a-sharp]

I think that getting the hands & eyes to recognize intervals, in addition to reading the notes is important. Perhaps devise or find, some excercises that utilities various intervals - harmonic & melodic, so his eyes learn to recognize those, and his hands learn how to "feels" them... alongside of what he's currently working on - maybe that will work.

I know of a guy who is fairly well-accomplished (technically) - meaning, he 'tackles' chopin etudes & ballades etc - he had no 'formal' instruction per se (he's in his late 50's) - but he is "handicapped" in the sense that he HAS to write in ALL the fingering for just about every single note - which I find so unfortunate.

Let us know if you figure something out that works!

[ridr27]

So good to see I am NOT the only one NOTteaching hand position and numbers.

How to get myself out of this mess I don't know.  I am not sure just how long he has played this way, but it is ingrained. 

I talked to the Mother and she said that was how she learned.  Apparently she did not progress much beyond that.  So no help/support from her.

This boy is a very mature and serious minded boy.   I don't want to lose him.  I tried giving him work sheets for notation, but he never filled them out.   I know he is very busy with finishing the school year.  Maybe he will cooperate a bit on it this summer.  The thing is he feels it is pulling him backward.    The Music I gave him he said was  quote:  too young for him.

Unless he starts to think on his own that he needs to turn this around I seem to be at a dead end.

If anyone has more thoughts I want to hear.
Thanks more than you know.
Rider27

[ridr27]

It is me again.

Anyone have experience with just letting a student continue on with hand position?
Did they eventually learn notes?
There are quite a few method books out like this.  (promoting Hand position.  (C  G  etc)
1 2 3 4 5)

I suppose they are used to get the students up and playing in a hurry.
(just my take)

Ridr27

[hyrst]

I have had this happen, but you have to take the lead carefully. 

Work with the hand positions, but gradually decrease the hints from finger numbers.  It seems to improve once you start 'changing postiions' - when scale passages are introduced, for example, and the student has to be more flexible about how they apply their understanding.  Also, remind them that finger numbers are not note names but fingering is important for managing all the notes required in a passage. 

One of the most common issues I find is that kids read the notes and match the fingers from the middle c position, so it can be good to move into 'G position' so that few notes over lap.  It helps reinforce the independence of the numbers and the notes.  Read through the contour and intervals of a section before playing it - talk about directions and patterns. 

It is possible to wean them off, if you keep reinforcing the most efficient reading patterns.  I have found the only thing that I have needed to completely take a student back for is a completely inadequate technical foundation. 

[pianochick93]

When my sister began learning keyboard at her primary school, the teachers taught all of the kids using finger numbers. I pointed it out to mum though, and we pulled her out of that program and got her a better teacher.

Imagine a kid that has never learnt notes trying to play complex classical pieces. It just wouldn't work anywhere near as well.

[a-sharp]

Hey well, if the kid is smart, and you know he wants to learn, but, he won't follow your direction - take drastic measures. erase all the finger numbers. Or white them out. see how that goes. Maybe, he'll be convinced then. What can I say - I'm mean like that.

[musicrebel4u]

Here some common exercises that might help:
-https://www.doremifasoft.com/frvipiex.html

[kelly_kelly]

I haven't taught (except my sister) but maybe if he's inspired by some more advanced/complex music he'll be motivated to learn notes? If you tell him that in order to play at a certain level note reading is necessary?

[bablinbrook]

I have had great success teaching with Jon Schmidt's "Ten-week Note Reading Method."  It is geared to the older beginner, and teaches note reading by using "anchor" notes and their position as it is relative to the keys on the keyboard.  It is a great sight reading resource.  You can download the method for free at Jonschmidt.com under "education" and then "note-reading".  The music book (67 Fun Songs)  that goes with it can also be downloaded for around $10 and is an excellent resource for kids that want to play "cool" music instead of music that is too "young" for them.

This was a lifesaver for me when I began teaching an 11 year old beginner who had learned to play video game songs by rote by watching clips on Youtube.  He wasn't at all interested in starting at the beginning, but this method jump-started him into things he WAS interested in.  Good luck!

[danny elfboy]

A good solution is to extract interesting chunks from interesting pieces both in sheet and in music and spend time with him at lesson to listen to the audio clips while looking the patterns on the sheet.

In order to make music reading effective rather than frustrating you must put the focus on patterns and shapes at the first level not on symbols. This is exactly how we learn to read. We don't care about D plus O plus G. We care about the word DOG and its shape.

Music reading is mostly taught the wrong way by default.
It is taught as if we were to read note by note focusing on the characteristics of each black dot. No wonder such way to approach reading doesn't resemble music at all.
If such approach were used with text reading we would never learn to read.

This is also why students perceive music reading as a boring dreadfull task whereas a child perceives trying to read words in a book as an exciting wonderful experience.

You need to start slowly telling him that you're going to introduce reading into his practice but in a non invasive way, by pointing out patterns shapes but without making a real task out of it.