And what about those students who are really passionate about playing but just can't figure it out for themselves, and are condemned to a lifetime of playing below their potential, discomfort and even injury just because the teacher can't be bothered to work out how to teach the correct technique?
PS. The whack vs the smooth acceleration affects hammer flexion. An unbending hammer can credibly apply more impulse to a string than one that isn't springing back out of a bend.
I like the idea of using the torso, having the feeling of weight come up from the floor, being grounded.Add a nice finger arch and movement while pressing the keys down, or leaning into the keys. To me that has a lot more power and reserves than hitting the keys.Kind of the feeling of doing a pushup on the keyboard. Not really strength involved, just having things lined up. Using body weight, measured out. Not body building strength involved.
Other than that, I can add entire pianistic technique is mostly a mental and only little bit physical processes based on accumulating of energy->fast releasing->and immediate relaxation, where entire system is in a "standby" mode, with re-distribution of the support so the entire system does not collapse.
If this isn't clutching at straws!? So the inertia causes the shank to bend? What madness. And anyway, if only this was true just think what extra power the twacking of the shank + speed of hammer would add! Someone aught to design that in!As for hammers leaving sooner with a whack - you can jab your trolley as hard as you like it can never go faster than the bat doing the jabbing. The jabee always slows down the moment it loses contact with the jaber - that's called inertia.
Anyway, that was but a side point, to prove the fallacy of making oversimplified points and ignoring other possibilities outright. Nobody is saying it's definitely enough to make a difference but that there is perfectly credible scope for it to be considered.
perfectly credible scope!? In the realms of fantasy you mean. Not worth posting on.All part of trying to obscure you're even more bizarre claim that something can go faster than the thing pushing it!
The issue is in how speed FAILS to be passed...The point is that people who think fortissimo requires extreme speed are not successfully passing speed on
The faster the key travel the faster the hammer travel - simple as that.
OK, here's how you do it:To play fortissimo you need to get the keys down fast.
'passing speed on'!? what's that supposed to mean? The faster the key travel the faster the hammer travel - simple as that. (though evidently not in your magical world)
It is not an automatic given that hammer and key stay joined all the way to escapement. Anything founded on that assumption is invalid.
So now you're saying the quicker the key goes down the less of the escapement mechanism it's in contact with? There's nonsense for you.
The simple reason that the "easy" explanation becomes complicated is because it is so far short of conveying what makes the differences that occur.
Incidentally, I do think that whoever said somewhere above that a good pianissimo is key to a good fortissimo has a strong point.
No, sorry, I didn't make myself clear as to what 'easy' explanation I was referring to. I meant the easy explanation for fortissimo is that you need to get the keys down fast _with precise control of timing and relative speed_. All this stuff about hammers flexing, internal coupling or not, etc. etc. blah blah, is so arcane it's really not worth considering at all.
It's easy to say but not easy to do, which is why so many pianists - frankly, practically all of us, at least sometimes - make a rather horrid noise when trying to play loud. But being aware of _exactly_ what you're trying to do is often, in all sorts of human activity, nine-tenths of the solution.
Incidentally, I do think that whoever said somewhere above that a good pianissimo is key to a good fortissimo has a strong point. If you play pianissimo all evening, your one true forte at the end of the final piece will have a lot more impact than some twit's consistent banging.
The best analogy can be in the way we walk. Just think of it--we step on one leg and the weight of our entire body concentrates in that little footprint. Once we step on another leg that whole energy from the first one gets released, with the first leg being completely relaxed in that "standby mode" I mentioned earlier. When we walk it is so natural for us that we can say: "I am relaxed". All muscles work in tandem and our body does not collapse because of that constant muscles firing-relaxation and that natural re-distribution of energy.
The most common mistake of 99.9% students, which were not taught professionally, or were not taught well enough from the very beginning is the lack of that relaxation after the muscles firing. In other word, once the students push down the key they still keep it pressed at the bottom and the fingers "get stuck" in the keys--the louder they play the worse this feeling.
Consider/imagine throwing darts. Even if thrown with max speed once the dart pierces the board entire energy immediately disappears--there is no pressure, whatsoever, other than the dart staying stuck in the board. The similar happens playing piano. Once your finger "pierces" the key entire energy should get immediately dissipated. Do you need pianissimo--your finger pierces it lightly. Do you need fortissimo--it pierces it with lot's of force (creating very fast hummer acceleration). But the feeling always should be the same--the piercing and immediate energy release is a simultaneous process.
I know that you're a fine pianist and I know that the analogy works for some. However, as someone who was actively harmed by thinking this way, I feel compelled to point out differences that must objectively be going on, unless the key is to be released immediately upon relaxing. All I ask is that you keep an open enough mind to read what I have to say and to consider it before replying.The problem with your analogy is specifically that a key stays depressed. Even if we assume no arm weight is being applied at all, the springs of the key are trying to raise it back up. A relaxed finger cannot resist a spring. So what does, if you "relax"? Some people will claim arm weight does. Yet, equally, if any arm weight at all is involved, that too is trying to squash the hand into collapsing from the top down. Relaxation stops neither from causing movement in the hand and fingers. Only a proper use of specific ongoing activity (in the opposite direction to the springs and to the weight) stops significantly bigger tensions from achieving that necessary job. An accomplished pianist who thinks they are relaxed may be doing that balancing expansion activity without knowing. But an average amateur who is told to relax may be actively led away from it and towards the unconscious stiffness that must compensate, to stop the key rising. Ultimately, if you think you're fully relaxed in this situation, you aren't- whether you're a pro or a beginner. It falls to a pianist's skill and training to determine whether the actions that they keep balance with are effective ones, or messy tense ones.Why are they stuck at the bottom at all? If they get stuck, it's because they collapsed downwards. If they learn to push away, as in a press-up, there's nothing to let go of, except the balancing action. You finishing by being sprung AWAY from the keys- not by sagging down into them. The action that pushes you away is useful- not something to let go of. You fall down again if you release it. It's a matter of seeking BALANCE- not generic and imprecisely defined relaxation. Consider what happens in a press up. Do you relax, at the top? No, because keeping some of that same activity is essential to staying in balance. You merely move to that point and then try to avoid being stiff. The more you open yourself away from the floor, the lighter the workload on the muscles. The worst thing is to relax towards the floor- which increases the level of effort required not to fall face first. Relaxation isn't beneficial. The best pianistic action just finishes into balance, like at the top of a press-up or after standing up out of a squat. There's nothing superfluous to relax, when it's done well. Even if you were tense somewhere, you cannot afford to strive for relaxation in all muscles, or you simply cause more tensions still. You need to feel which ones have an active role to maintain.This is exactly what harmed me the most. I'd succeed in letting it all go, as you describe. So I'd then relax and droop- which allows gravity to start tugging the knuckles down towards the keys. Then I'd instantly be forced to stiffen to stop my hand falling palm first into a cluster. I don't release anymore. I finish the equivalent of a press-up and exist in low-effort balance there, without letting anything even begin to fall back down again. The change in how little effort it now takes is too big to convey. Trying to relax (rather than get to know my balance point, by finishing the movement) caused my tensions.The darts analogy just doesn't work, sorry. A dart has nothing to do. It's in balance anyway. A hand has action to perform if it is to retain balance. Some level of weight and springs in the key are trying to deform the shape. Only activity can keep balance. Relax into slack and be forced to hold up the weight of that slack through tension. It's simply nothing like a situation where a dart could not fail to be balanced, and need do nothing more than exist. The more I tried to think that way, the more I relaxed the low effort actions that could have been balancing my hand simply and easily. And the more I unconsciously resorted to much greater compensatory efforts- as the only way to stop the key coming back up and my hand from falling down into a cluster. The analogy works fine in conjuction with superb teaching (that points at something else altogether), but in itself it points to all of the wrong things for anyone who wants to avoid wasted efforts.
Dear Nyiregyhazi,As always, evil is in details. You think that you were "harmed this way", or "this is exactly what harmed me the most", while from what you are talking in your response reveals that clearly you don't even understand the concept I am talking about... in principle. For starters, please absorb this information: the key uplift (or 'spring', as you say) on modern Steinways is around 20 gram (i.e. 0.7 oz). FYI, the weight of the finger together with the friction created by pulling force of the knuckle muscle (or tendon) is between 1.5 oz and 2.5 oz for different people (meaning, with the right aligning of the hand against the keys there should be no any additional force applied to keep the key down). After that, please re-think your "objective" points, write something more comprehendible (preferably in a short and concise form), and then we can resume.Best, MP.S. Cannot help but notice, surely, your asking me having "an open mind" sounds cute.
I don't quite understand. If someone asks you yo keep it shirt, you reply even longer than before. I read and re-read. Yet, I have no clue of what you are trying to say. It's too long, and too many things that have nothing, or very little at most, to do with the subject.
Indeed, this is a good point. Chopin did not have a loud fortissimo, but he did have a thousand shades of pianissimo which compensated.
That said, I imagine that the principal reason for the lack of a big fortissimo in Chopin's playing would almost certainly have been his general physical frailty.
Fill up a field with Steinways. Then attach two 50 kilo weights to your wrist and go up in a balloon to about 10,000 ft.Jump without a parachute and keep your fingers straight.This is how to do it.
No, they complained about how quiet he played in Vienna at the age of 20. That was before he became frail.
'. . . My first thought was to call on Chopin, I cannot say how glad we were to meet again after five years of separation. He has grown tall and strong, so that I scarcely recognised him. 'Jan Matuszynski [Paris 1834]
hitting the keys
N- with your type if argument: a completely relaxed body can't sit in a chair, so.. though, I've never actually seen just a finger, without the rest of the body. If I ever did, I wouldn't think "hey, let's put it on a piano key, and see what happens". Maybe you can experiment with your students?And I clearly see how your exercise in hitting the keys is super beneficial!!!!
and Orlowski 1832: 'Chopin is well and strong. He is turning the heads of all the ladies and making all the husbands jealous.'We need to get away from the idea that Chopin was always sickly. By his 30's, yes - I put it down to too many late nights.
and Orlowski 1832: 'Chopin is well and strong. He is turning the heads of all the ladies and making all the husbands jealous.'
Not "always", no - but there seems to be no shortage of documentary evidence that, for most of his life, he was no M. Atlas.
Personally I never encourage anyone to think that way, at it causes awkward jerks. I simply guide students to perceive the resistance of the keys and to feel connected to it. Some people speak of turning the key into an extension of the finger.
...Students THINK their finger is relaxed and often think weight can look after keeping keys down, without the They relax the useful bits and squash down with with weight or even active pressure from rest of the body, to stop the key coming up... Only when you learn to keep the level of arm weight gentle (so the finger CHOOSES whether to keep the key down, without being FORCED to stiffen by pressure from the rest of the body) can you be certain that you're creating the most scope for comfort and freedom (not only in the hand but in the wrist and elsewhere).
I never said anything about weight or pressure of arm, or body. I never said about anything being forced to stiffen (G-d forbid). I made very clear that interaction between fingers and rest of the body should be in perfect alignment and works only as a system, which is in agreement with the second part of your message. So what are you arguing about? Best, M
Comparing this alive and active balance with a dart that sits inert in a dartboard, doing nothing. Or with a situation that finishes in total relaxation. It's like the way a squat evolves into an active standing position - and very little like something that is as lifeless as a dart in a dartboard.
I think you are confusing issues. The analogy with a dart was in relation to a finger work, i.e. the finger "pierces" the key bed and then the energy immediately releases (indeed, the finger sits in the key, doing nothing--the most common mistake of the students is leaving pressure in the key after the key has been pressed). Re-read that part again. What are you arguing about?Best, M
Quite agree about turning the key into an extension of the finger. Or rather, I would take it further than that, in both directions - ideally, the piano is an extension of the player. Many of the best operators of all kinds of machines, from pianos to cars, think along those lines. Machines exist to increase our abilities as creatures.
Agree entirely, though I would suggest "all the best operators" rather than "many", and most of the merely competent ones as well.This ability to extend our being into the tools we use is part of what distinguishes us as humans.
True. A heavier arm's weight ratio is greater than a lighter arm's weight ratio. The former requires less momentum to depress the keys because it's heavier. That's why ants can't play piano.
Try using the tip of your fingers (make sure you've cut your nails!) and strike the piano keys sternly and loudly.
This is known as "hammer fingers" and is a really inefficient way to produce tone on the piano. This is a very old-school technique that is still, unfortunately, taught. It goes way back before the piano was even invented, most often employed at the service of the harpsichord to overcome the plucking action of the instrument. If you've ever played the harpsichord, you'll understand why this technique is so valuable - it works. Playing the harpsichord like a piano results in very uneven tempi because the different fingers must overcome the pluck. Some fingers are more effective at this than others.
Topic: How to do effective fortissimo 