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Topic: Fingering for Liszt's Mazeppa  (Read 15579 times)

Offline russda_man

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Fingering for Liszt's Mazeppa
on: June 05, 2008, 09:08:04 PM
I've just started learning Mazeppa. My question is this. In the Henle edition, on the 2nd page (where the main theme begins), it indicates to play the first two (double) semiquavers with the second and forth fingers on each, and then the same thing for the right hand etc. (if you know the piece, you will hopefully know what I mean!), is this the conventional fingering which most pianists use? I just thought it might be easier to change fingers, e.g. left hand: 2 and 4, to 3 and 5. Obviously this makes a different sound, so I don't think it fits with the spirit of the passagework. Any comments would be appreciated, as I am also quite new to Liszt! Thanks
Russ.
 

Offline jlh

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Re: Fingering for Liszt's Mazeppa
Reply #1 on: June 05, 2008, 09:33:54 PM
I've just started learning Mazeppa. My question is this. In the Henle edition, on the 2nd page (where the main theme begins), it indicates to play the first two (double) semiquavers with the second and forth fingers on each, and then the same thing for the right hand etc. (if you know the piece, you will hopefully know what I mean!), is this the conventional fingering which most pianists use? I just thought it might be easier to change fingers, e.g. left hand: 2 and 4, to 3 and 5. Obviously this makes a different sound, so I don't think it fits with the spirit of the passagework. Any comments would be appreciated, as I am also quite new to Liszt! Thanks
Russ.
 

Get the Schirmer edition ed. Paolo Gallico.  It is an instructive edition with fingering, phrasing, expression marks,  and suggestions for practicing.  For you I would highly recommend it.  All your concerns about fingering are addressed, and yes there is a more practical fingering one can use and STILL maintain the non-legato effect Liszt was going for.
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Offline dnephi

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Re: Fingering for Liszt's Mazeppa
Reply #2 on: June 05, 2008, 09:56:47 PM
Get the Schirmer edition ed. Paolo Gallico.  It is an instructive edition with fingering, phrasing, expression marks,  and suggestions for practicing.  For you I would highly recommend it.  All your concerns about fingering are addressed, and yes there is a more practical fingering one can use and STILL maintain the non-legato effect Liszt was going for.
I think it's a weak edition.  It is full of typos and he recommends that you facilitate.  I recommend Cortot instead. 
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline thierry13

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Re: Fingering for Liszt's Mazeppa
Reply #3 on: June 05, 2008, 11:34:35 PM
I played the whole thing with 2-4 all the way trough, except with the two last variations of course. Worked for me.

Offline jlh

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Re: Fingering for Liszt's Mazeppa
Reply #4 on: June 06, 2008, 12:12:17 AM
I think it's a weak edition.  It is full of typos and he recommends that you facilitate.  I recommend Cortot instead. 

I'm not aware of the typos - do you know where specifically in Mazeppa?  Because Gallico explains in the Preface that some typographical errors in the original edition were corrected in his edition.

I see where he recommends facilitation in one section... Of course, one need not facilitate if one wishes not to... :)

What do you think of the Busoni (Dover) edition?
. ROFL : ROFL:LOL:ROFL : ROFL '
                 ___/\___
  L   ______/             \
LOL "\         [ ] \
  L              \_________)
                 ___I___I___/

Offline thierry13

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Re: Fingering for Liszt's Mazeppa
Reply #5 on: June 06, 2008, 02:01:46 AM
What do you think of the Busoni (Dover) edition?

That's what I have and I think it's very good. Certainly not the best, not the one with the most information, but a clean edition.

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Fingering for Liszt's Mazeppa
Reply #6 on: June 06, 2008, 02:25:28 AM
I've just started learning Mazeppa. My question is this. In the Henle edition, on the 2nd page (where the main theme begins), it indicates to play the first two (double) semiquavers with the second and forth fingers on each, and then the same thing for the right hand etc. (if you know the piece, you will hopefully know what I mean!), is this the conventional fingering which most pianists use? I just thought it might be easier to change fingers, e.g. left hand: 2 and 4, to 3 and 5. Obviously this makes a different sound, so I don't think it fits with the spirit of the passagework. Any comments would be appreciated, as I am also quite new to Liszt! Thanks
Russ.
 

2 4 is Liszt's fingering.

Offline dnephi

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Re: Fingering for Liszt's Mazeppa
Reply #7 on: June 06, 2008, 08:35:50 AM
And, tbh, given my experience with the work, 24-35 is very difficult to do with thirds, especially if you really want to articulate them.  13-24 would be more possible except for the when thumb would go on a black key, in which case 24-15 would be better.

Do you have a teacher?  If you have not been assigned this piece by a teacher, it is almost certainly beyond your ability and you will waste enormous amounts of time.
I know I did.
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Fingering for Liszt's Mazeppa
Reply #8 on: June 06, 2008, 10:45:05 AM
Get the Schirmer edition ed. Paolo Gallico.  It is an instructive edition with fingering, phrasing, expression marks,  and suggestions for practicing.  For you I would highly recommend it.  All your concerns about fingering are addressed, and yes there is a more practical fingering one can use and STILL maintain the non-legato effect Liszt was going for.

I'm far from convinced that the "more practical fingering" is particularly effective in generating the "horse's hooves" effects intended from the 24 thirds. It does however enable you to play the etude faster. Perhaps the Busoni edition of the 1837 Grandes etudes is of interest: in the second occurrence of the theme the thirds occur as DF, EG, FA, EG, DF (etc) in both hands simultaneously, and he has these marked 24,24,24,24,24 in both hands. 24 is the original Liszt fingering.
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Offline russda_man

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Re: Fingering for Liszt's Mazeppa
Reply #9 on: June 06, 2008, 11:21:49 AM
Get the Schirmer edition ed. Paolo Gallico.  It is an instructive edition with fingering, phrasing, expression marks,  and suggestions for practicing.  For you I would highly recommend it.  All your concerns about fingering are addressed, and yes there is a more practical fingering one can use and STILL maintain the non-legato effect Liszt was going for.
Thanks I'll try that.
Russ.

Offline russda_man

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Re: Fingering for Liszt's Mazeppa
Reply #10 on: June 06, 2008, 11:26:35 AM
And, tbh, given my experience with the work, 24-35 is very difficult to do with thirds, especially if you really want to articulate them.  13-24 would be more possible except for the when thumb would go on a black key, in which case 24-15 would be better.

Do you have a teacher?  If you have not been assigned this piece by a teacher, it is almost certainly beyond your ability and you will waste enormous amounts of time.
I know I did.

I have a teacher, but he's away for a couple of weeks! Thanks for your advice; most people seem to think 24-24 is the best.
Russ.

Offline ramseytheii

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Re: Fingering for Liszt's Mazeppa
Reply #11 on: June 16, 2008, 01:37:56 AM
Don't use any finger action at all.  Those thirds are purely from the arm.  The fingers cannot play too deep into the keys, and have to go along with the contraction and expansion of the arm muscles.

Normally I loathe physical descriptions, but this piece is so physical it actually needs it.  When playing the thirds here, don't ever lift the fingers.  Ever!

Walter Ramsey


Offline dnephi

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Re: Fingering for Liszt's Mazeppa
Reply #12 on: June 16, 2008, 01:06:22 PM
I'll get you a video in a few weeks so you can get an idea of what it looks like.  Once learned, it's not difficult to recall.
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)
 

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