Do teacher do social thing with students?

[dora96]

I am just wondering do teacher do social things with students? I have been studying with my teacher for 2 years. She always said to me" we must go to Yum Cha in local Chinese restaurant. Of course, she never calls me or when I suggest that can we go next week? She is not sure what she is doing for next week. We have mini concert twice in a year at her house. She will gather all her students to perform exam's repertoires, but most of the students are very subdued, hardly talk to each other. My teacher never offer us any drink, no tea or coffee or snack at the end of the concert. She tells all her students that she is musical mother, nurturing and caring for her students, but I don't feel one bit.

After concert, she seems to want to kick us out of her house. I don't mean she should offer anything for us, it is hard enough to organize the concert using her spare time, and no pay for the time she listen to us. It seems that it has been 2 years, I hardly know her. She is very strict in her teaching. I thought it would be nice to get together to relax and chat to each other, and know each other more. When I have any concern or question, it is so hard to  communicate, I don't want to waste my lesson time to discuss something besides the music, but when I call her to discuss something, my teacher always said "I can't talk very long, always quite agitate about calling her". I feel the relationship between my teacher and I like business exchange, no different from using any professional. I know my account more than my piano teacher. Is it healthy or unusual I am just wondering? 

I am also a piano teacher. When I have good idea, problem or concern or  something I want to share with my students and parents, I will give monthly newsletter. They quite enjoy reading it and I will encourage them to write feedback and their news to  me as well. That's most I have done.  Most of students are kids. I would love to take them to McDonald's, especially when they are doing well and working hard, or after the exam but I am not sure it is appropriate. I feel that I should like my teacher keep as professional as possible.  Could you share your relationship between you and your students?

[thalberg]

When I was in college, my teacher was very social with her students, often having lunch or dinner with us individually or in groups.  She had a party once a year for us.  In graduate school I had many teachers.  Some were very social and friendly and others were very distant and professional.  It all just depends on what the teacher wants.

In my own teaching, I prefer not to do social things with the students because to me it feels like work without pay.  But if you want to do it, I think you should.  Students normally like it.

[m19834]

My relationship is a bit different with each of my students, and a lot of that has to do with how I read them as individuals.  Of course there are different "philosophies" out there regarding how a relationship between student and teacher should be (similar to parenting). 

I will say, what I believe in most is that the relationship needs to be dynamic, and one that is capable of including within it whatever needs to be there (which will change).  I went through a phase of wanting to take each of my students out for a special outting, and there are some of them whom I would still do that with.  I actually even made a point to go to their other events, like a marimba club concert of one of my student's.  At some point, the extra activities you are expected to do would never end, and on top of that, the students themselves won't necessarily truly appreciate the extra effort on your part (though I suspect some of them do).

In my own experience, I have actually greatly appreciated when/if a teacher has taken the time to have lunch with me or so, though that has happened very, very rarely.

I grew up being involved in different programs that were designed to be a kind of support program for younger kids.  Among several things, I was part of something called "big brother/big sister program" where I would walk to a local elementary school during my lunch breaks and eat lunch together with a little girl.  I have been a part of other mentoring programs as well, programs in which I was the mentor.  And, I guess a largish portion of my own teaching philosophy has included a carryover from those programs that I have been a part of.  In many ways, it has felt like a direct outgrowth.  However, does my friendship or relationship with my students actually help them to understand music any better ?  Or, does it help them actually play any better ?  I don't know if these are the most important questions to be asking, but in some regard they are.  I do know that even with the students I have spent extra time with and have made special efforts with, well, they still quit.

Some part of me has always believed in putting in extra with lots of things and people.  Extra effort, extra time, extra care and consideration ... just extra, extra, extra.  Honestly, I don't know why that is and I have often wound up feeling resentful because of it.  Some part of me has believed it makes a difference ... to somebody or something.  The jury is still *way* out on that one.

In general, I think most people have no idea the kind of time another person may be putting into them.  And, I hope that is true for me, actually, though it may be unfortunate for those whom put that kind of time into me.  But, I think there is almost no way around being under-appreciated for extra effort and time.  And, I say that because it becomes then a decision of the person doing it and a matter of how they wish to spend their life and what they wish to be in their heart.  I know that no matter what, people will always be disappointed or they will forget, and even if you are pouring your heart out, for many, it will never be actually enough.

[ahinton]

Never having been a teacher, I would have to be careful what I write here, yet all I had in mind to do in any case is to cite the case of the American composer and pianist Andrew Violette, who studied with both Roger Sessions and Elliott Carter; of the former (widely regarded - quite unjustly - as a stuffy Ivy-league academic who wrote turgidly intellectual  serial music), Violette remarked that "he treated all his students to dinner once a year at a local pasta place; he would say, "garlic is sign of civilization" - he taught me about the value of the long singing line, the importance of the human voice in music - he trained me to think like a composer - he used simple words in a deep way" (Violette incidentally also claims to have found Carter far harder to form any kind of relationship with - which, when one thinks of the sheer unbridled humanity in Carter's music, would appear to reveal some kind of unbridgeable temperamental incompatibility between the two of them).

Best,

Alistair

[hyrst]

I have never done anything social with my teacher and wouldn't expect to.  However,  we are adults of opposite genders, so maybe that makes a difference.  He did once say that there was a dinner with an international jazz person, and he thought about asking me because everyone else was paired up.  I was pretty surprised about that, and still don't quite know what to think.

With my students, I don't initiate anything social except for the recitals every semester.  At the recitals, I do have a party afterwards - with games for the little ones - and everyone hangs around for a couple of hours.  These occassions are a lot of work and money - but a lot of fun and they go a long way towards building working relationships. 

I have different relationships with all my students.  The ones I enjoy teaching the most are actually the ones who I know a little more personally.  However, it is always the student or their parents who initiate anything outside of the teaching schedule.  (I never do anything with a young student without the parent being present - it is legally way too dangerous.)  I have had a lot of illness, chemo therapy and stuff to deal with, and some parents have been very supportive.  I feel appreciated by people when they do things like make me a meal and I have never asked.  Interestingly, the students who are doing well are also the ones whose parents are more supportive towards me as a teacher. 

I usually am happy to talk with parents at length if they call me.  I am keen to spend this time because the parent can then encourage or help the student.  If they called often, though, I might get tired of it.  I also wouldn't like an adult student to phone me too often, as they have one-on-one time during lessons.  THere wouldn't be anything extra that i could give them during my own time.  I already give a lot of my time and mental energy - far more than a lot of my students realise.  For a few students, I think I probably put more time and effort into their learning then they do themselves - even when I am planning their lessons and it is not paid time.  I am happy to do this when I know I am apreciated, although I don't think anyone is aware that I spend time when they are not here, but I am still compelled to work on how to teach a student even if they don't appreciate me.  I try to work out how I can get through to them better.  (I do get a llittle resentful sometimes, but have to remember I am choosing to do all this work.)

It does sound like your teacher wants to keep strict boundaries.  If you want to learn form her, you probably just need to accept that this is how she works.  If this is unhelpful for you
maybe you need to think about if you are getting your learning needs met. 

I wouldn't recommend taking young students out to McDonalds and things, though.

[dora96]

I know my piano teacher tries her best, but I think most piano teachers want to be arm length relationship. For me, I feel that I want to be social with my student especially the older one, but I don't really want to get involved too deep.

I want them to appreciate music and not only doing well in their exam, but the music should be part of their lives, for our forefather composer's sake, and our art. Teaching and as music teacher should have these nurturing attitudes, and hope I can help to develop student's taste and their zeal for the art and music. More and more generation will learn and appreciate classical literature, but it is very demanding I must admit. I want to do it but afraid.

I meet someone in my church, he is retired professional musician, and he also got teaching degree. I ask him that could he give me any advice on my repertoires I am working on. He doesn't mind and listen to me playing, but I sense that I want to pick him brain. I want to offer him reasonable fee, but he said to me that I couldn't afford him, and he doesn't want to have student anymore. After the advice, I will take him for lunch in a way of thanking him. I know it is awkward. The advice he gives is very general, and he reminds me the trouble spot, but sometimes, there is no depth of the knowledge, but he advises me greatly. It is very strange though, every time I see  him I can't wait to ask him something. It becomes a desperate  habit.     

[andric_s]

I don't even have enough time to be social with my friends. 

[dora96]

I don't even have enough time to be social with my friends. 

Maybe you are right ! Life is getting so hectic, I must admit I don't even social with my own family that often. Like my friend, I feel that when he spends 45 minutes coaching me, he should be getting at least $80 for his expertise in reality, but honestly if I can afford it I will just go to my teacher. Nowadays, everything is getting so expensive, especially the petrol, just go from A to B cost fortunate and it is already effort.  I just stick with you guys in the forum.

[Essyne]

I think it just depends on the student. Many things can be misconstrued with different people (parents, etc) regarding "socialising." But in a more adult setting (yeah yeah, I know I'm not technically an "adult" yet, but I am treated as such), I know that I tell my voice teachers and coaches things that I wouldn't tell anyone else. That leads to a more personal relationship, which can often lead to socialising outside of the work environment.

But there are so many factors to take into consideration - Just look at each student individually, and try to look at it from others' perspectives (i.e. - a 30 y/o female teacher taking a 15 y/o male student out to dinner or a 25 y/o male teacher taking an 18 y/o female student to a formal recital alone. . . ) to judge the appropriateness. Personally, as a younger female student, I would shy away from any extreme INDIVIDUAL socialising with a teacher, because I absolutely LOVE my teacher and wouldn't want to compromise the instruction that I'm getting from him now. . . But just konw that everyone has their own little motives. I recall some kids at my school purposely getting teachers to invite them to concerts and stuff and then accuse them of acting inappropriately after the fact.  It's disgusting. Kids do stupid, vengeful, (often, as this was the case) unprovoked deeds just to get attention. Many adults do it too (after all, many adults have never matured past that 16 y/o mentality nowadays).

Just be careful.

~Ess~

[dan101]

As a teacher, I find it acceptable to keep in touch with students that have graduated. With current students, I keep a professional distance. This method has worked for me for decades.

Good luck.

[jinfiesto]

Hahaha. I feel like an oddball. I have dinner with my teacher after every lesson... Personally, it's helped me greatly. My teacher is like another mother to me, and often, she hears things before my mother... Hahahaha. But then again, I also travel with her to conferences, attend recitals and the like. The age gap is such that it's not really a concern, so it works out. Hahaha.

[lostinidlewonder]

All teachers are different. I found I never really struck up a friendship with my teachers from universities or professional performing teacher because their time tables are so complicated and they never have time for anyone. I however had a lot of friendships with teachers who where just private teachers who could have a yarn after the lesson.

I think it is important to make your customers feel important, can you imagine some piano tutors that don't even bother to know your name! I find you will find you will get much more progress out of your student if you strike up a friendship with them. This removes the embarrassment and frustration with progress that all students have when they sit with a teacher.

There is always a mental struggle that the student wants to prove to their teacher that they can do it. If you strike up a friendship and work with them on their level through their work, even laugh with them and get frustrated with them etc, this really encourages them to do more, get through more, push themselves more. "Honey catches more flies than vinegar", a saying which applies very very strongly to tutoring music imo.

With younger children you have to be also a figure of discipline, if you are only their friend they will play up and not listen to you (learned that the hard way ). Children need discipline, adults I find often flinch at this. You cannot be strict to an adult because it doesn't help them as much as it would a youngster who is learning about being disciplined in life to get what you want.

Adults know about discipline, some of them have struggled with it for their whole life, they need encouragement to be disciplined not told about discipline. With a youngster you can say "I can see you haven't practice." and say so to encourage guilt over not practicing, some of them do not realize what effect it has on their progress so seeing a teacher get depressed over it give them something to realize. But of course you must act as a source of encouragement and inspiration, this negativity is only to show my reaction to unacceptable practice, then we get down to business and work through what they didn't do, often I will pressure them so they feel exhaused a little then say, well now this lesson would have been easier if you did practice wouldn't it? Then I highlight to them if I don't see practice in the future we will do the practice in the lesson and it won't be an easy lesson! I will say it with a smile of course, so they know I am not hostile towards them, but let them know I will be happy to see them work extra hard in a lesson and I will pressure them to keep going throughout.

With adults you don't encourage guilt for not practicing, they are well aware of what inconsistency of practice causes. You empathize that they haven't had enough time to put into their piano work and then set out to encourage them to get through the work together. Perhaps even given them options, plan to how they practice their music, schedule time, get it all written down, adults react to this better than youngsters, often with adults what gets written gets done. The teacher should break the practice up so that they have the ability to make observable progress with little time, if that means reducing the score so that future adding of the rest of the notes is somewhat effortless.

[timothy42b]

dora,
It seems like you are thinking of only two kinds of relationships:  a formal arms length teacher/student one, versus a social friendly one. 

When I was in graduate school a couple of decades back, many of the professors socialized with the graduate students, though not the undergraduates.  This was deliberate and explicitly stated at least a couple of times.  They wanted us to consider ourselves as working professionals, and they wanted to demonstrate and practice the collegial working interactions that fellow professionals should show. 

It was rare but not unknown for one of them also to develop a friendship with a student.

So I would say you need at least three definitions of relationship:  strictly teacher/student, fellow professional, friend. 

I think your goal should be to eventually move your teacher/student relationships toward professional colleague relationships wherever appropriate and where it doesn't interfere with learning.  I think it would be rare but possible for adults to become friends. 

pardon me for being intrusive, but it sounds a little bit like you want to be friends with your teacher, yet she doesn't sound like your type. 

[dora96]

Hi Timothy42B,

You and other members said it very well. In the past, I had personal friends that wanted me to teach their kids piano, and also church friends. Because the relationship I had with them, they treated me very easy going. They wouldn't show up for the lesson occasionally, when they were busy and when I didn't have students after them. They wanted to stay and chatted a bit.

It is very tricky to be close and friendly with friends but as well as be professional way. Like me, my relationship with my teacher is very strict. All I am interested in learning the piano, and getting my technique and musicality improved, beyond that other things which doesn't  really interest me very much. I think for my adult students are more likely the same. I really don't do much with them, but the young students are fun and cute. I grow to love them and they are just like my own children. However, they are very busy as well. In their spare time, their parents will take them coaching  homework, sports, other siblings occupied their time.  The parents can't  brother with anything else. I think they only come because they have paid for the lesson. Even though, I  invite other students to come annually concert to absorb other musician, but some of them are not very enthusiastic about it.

Other thing is hard for us as teacher, because we are self-employed. Whatever we do is taking my time and effort even money to achieve that. Now I realize that to be teacher is more than just 9 to 5 work only. It is rewarding but also heartache.

[general disarray]

My conservatory teachers all believed in developing social relationships with students.  We, of course, we're all adults, so social evenings were great gatherings with fine food and drink . . . and where our  maestro sometimes played, but more often had us listen to and discuss recordings of all types of music. 

. . . mainly lieder and opera to broaden our musical background.  I learned more how to sing at the keyboard through these evenings than all the piano lessons I've ever had.

As a kid, my teachers were more distant and authoritarian.  No social stuff with them.  As a young adult I reconnected with them and enjoyed social evenings listening to music and playing.  I think that boundary is important to children. 

I was lucky.  I've had great teachers from the beginning.