How big are your hands??

[goalevan]

interesting.. gonna try that method and see how it works. another question for Bernhard - when is it best to join from HS to HT - master per passage while you master them each HS, or wait and master a whole piece HS then work on joining it all HT?

[mosis]

I also wonder about what is the best way to join hands.

Now, you say that you can play it in any way you wish after you have "learned" it in 7 repetitions? How do I tie in the "lots of slow practice will help you play stuff accurately" method into this? Do I do it during all the repetitions of the passage AFTER the 7 repetitions, or play it slowly to learn it?

You see, like I said, I've never experienced any other practice methods, so I wish to get as much information about it all as possible.

Thank you for the lengthy reply, I now understand it.

[bernhard]

interesting.. gonna try that method and see how it works. another question for Bernhard - when is it best to join from HS to HT - master per passage while you master them each HS, or wait and master a whole piece HS then work on joining it all HT?

The only reason to work of separate hands is to master the technical problems - here defined as movements, fingering and ingraining the sequence of movements so that you can play the passage smoothly at speed.

Hands together practice is to master co-ordination and create hand memory.

So, if you can sight read through the passage with hands separate, and all your fingers naturally fall in the right places, aand you can play it smoothly and fast without hesitations or wrong notes, then there is no need to practise hands separate. Just go straight to hands together.

However, if your fingers tie themselves in knots as you try to negotiate the passage, if there are surprising leaps that make you hesitate, if you keep getting the wrong notes, etc. then hands separate practice is a must.

You see, you will not be able to deal with technique and co-ordination at the same time. If you try you will just keep making (and therefore practising) mistakes.

When it is best to join hands? as soon as you completely mastered hands separate. But do not hurry. Make sure you really mastered HS. Impatience here is going to cost you later.

There is no need whatsoever to learn the whole piece HS (although there is no particular reason not to if you want). Typically a piece will have many passages that you do not need to tackle HS. So work on these passages HT straightaway. The most difficult passages in the piece will probably require HS practice, so just do these bits HS

There is one exception to this though: Counterpoint music (e.g. Bach’s fugues). I believe it is important to have a very clear aural representation of each melodic line in counterpoint, so the best way to do that is to learn each voice separately (this is one step beyond hands separate). And even after you finish learning this kind of piece, you should still practise it HS and HT to keep the several melodic lines fresh in your mind.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

I also wonder about what is the best way to join hands.

Now, you say that you can play it in any way you wish after you have "learned" it in 7 repetitions? How do I tie in the "lots of slow practice will help you play stuff accurately" method into this? Do I do it during all the repetitions of the passage AFTER the 7 repetitions, or play it slowly to learn it?

You see, like I said, I've never experienced any other practice methods, so I wish to get as much information about it all as possible.

Thank you for the lengthy reply, I now understand it.

You are welcome.

You can only start practising after you made two decisions:

1.      Which passage are you going to practise?

2.      What exactly and specifically do you want to have improved in that passage after you finish your practice session?

Repeating a passage seven times will help you with the first decision. It will define the passage size, from two notes to two pages (or even the whole piece).

Then you must choose amongst the myriad aspects of that passage the one you want to improve.

Practice is the same as improvement.

If you have not improved, you have not practised. If you sit at the piano for 8 hours and after 8 hours you are still playing badly, you cannot call those 8 hours practice. They are simply “piano activity”. The number of hours you spend practising is completely irrelevant. Only results count. So from now on, judge your practice by its results. If you are not getting the results you want, change the way you are practising. This of course assumes you had thought long and hard about what you want.

You must be really specific here. It is no good to say “ I want to play better”. You must be very specific: “I want to always hit that high C without ever missing it”. “ I want that 12 note run to be totally even both in rhythm as in tone.” “I want to memorise the first page of the piece”. You get the idea.

Then you must use your practice session to achieve your aims.

Personally I am not a great believer in slow practice. In very small dosages, I suggest slow motion practice which is a very different proposition.

There are thousands of practice strategies, many of which have been discussed at length in the forum. Read everything! You will also find many useful and powerful practice routines in these two sites:

https://members.aol.com/cc88m/PianoBook.html


https://www.practicespot.com/


Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[mosis]

Just one more question for you (you're a fountain of knowledge, I'm going to exploit you. )

When do you consider that a passage is "learned" after 7 times? Do you mean memorized, or you can play by looking at the sheets and hit every note at tempo?

The reason I ask this is because you stated "2 notes to 2 pages or even the whole piece," and I wonder, how can ANYONE memorize an ENTIRE piece after 7 attempts?

Also, when you have all the "chunks" that you've been practicing mastered and put together, is it okay from that part to practice the whole piece, beginning to end, in that 20-30 minute time period?

Okay, I think that's it for now, thanks.

[bernhard]

When do you consider that a passage is "learned" after 7 times? Do you mean memorized, or you can play by looking at the sheets and hit every note at tempo?

Yes, that is pretty much it.  

If you can play the passage at a reasonable tempo (not necessarily the final speed – but fast enough that you can “recognise” the music), without hesitations, may be a few – very few – wrong fingerings – and almost no mistakes; if it is on the verge of being memorised (you may still be following the score, but you are not laboriously deciphering it anymore), then I would be happy to settle for that passage as workable in a practice session.

What this means, is that after a practice session I would definitely have mastered it, while any passage that did not meet these requirements after seven minutes would be too large and would be a waste of practice time, since at the end I would still not have mastered it. Also, as I said, mastering a passage after a practice session does not necessarily mean that you mastered it for good. You may have to repeat it the next day, and the next. But usually after 3 – 4 days it is yours for good. Finally, If you can master only hands separate after seven repeats, this is also all right.

The reason I ask this is because you stated "2 notes to 2 pages or even the whole piece," and I wonder, how can ANYONE memorize an ENTIRE piece after 7 attempts?

It depends on the piece and on the person.

Music is highly patterned and highly repetitive. When you first start everything is new and confusing. But after a couple of years of (good) instruction you should be able to spot patterns that you already know all over the place.

Even if you are a complete beginner it is not impossible to learn a piece after seven repeats. Most people can learn “Chopsticks” after seven repeats.  

Daniel Gottlub Turk has a collection of beginner pieces (“Sixty pieces for aspiring players”) that are usually 8 – 10 bars long. Anyone who is playing Rach3 should be able to memorise and play any of these pieces after seven repeats.

Also knowledge of theory and harmony goes a long way to help, since they give meaning to music. The hardest things to memorise are the ones that have no meaning. If you want to memorise a Buddhist chant written in ancient Chinese, you will have a much harder time than if you want to memorise the Lord’s Prayer in English, simply because you understand the (superficial) meaning of the prayer, but the chant is (for you) just a bunch of sounds.

A lot of people approach learning music in this “brute force” way: they just go to the piano and get on with it. These are physically industrious but mentally lazy people. It always pays to delay piano practice until you have fully explored the score (as I said, do a motif analysis, a harmonic reduction, rewrite the piece separating the voices, anything that is appropriate to allow you to understand the structure of the piece). Also certain composers are very formulaic. (Mozart comes to mind) after you learn  two or three of his pieces, the next one is a piece of cake.

Also, when you have all the "chunks" that you've been practicing mastered and put together, is it okay from that part to practice the whole piece, beginning to end, in that 20-30 minute time period?

Do not get too much attached to exact numbers. 20-30 minutes is just an approximation. If you need 50 – 60 minutes, then so be it. I can usually get away with 10 minutes.

But you should always be on guard that you are not practising extra time just because the chunks you selected are too large, in which case you be wasting time and not be really practising. Imagine you have a 21 bar piece to learn. You may spend one hour repeating these 21 bars and getting nowhere. Or you can spend 10 minutes practising the first 7 bars, then 10 minutes the next 7 and 10 minutes the last 7. In this way you mastered the piece in 30 minutes total, while practising the whole thing for 1 hour did not get you anywhere.

You must investigate these general principles and see how they apply to you and to specific pieces.  Everyone is different, so I cannot give you more specific information than that. This is a bit like morality and ethics. People always know when they are doing something wrong. They may justify it to the world (and the louder the justification usually the worse is the wrong doing), but deep in their hearts they know if what they did was right or wrong. Likewise, you will know if what you are doing in terms of practice is right or wrong. Just get experience with applying the principles.

And yes, after you learned the piece, then you must practise the piece as a whole, and specially you must practise performing it. Now, if you are playing the Hammerklavier (which may take up to 40 minutes of playing), you cannot possibly apply the 20 minute rule, can you? Or if you are practising the performance of your recital, you will need to play solid for one hour – one hour and a half. So obviously a different set of principles and rules will apply.

All that I have said so far applies to bringing a piece to performance level in the fastest, most efficient way. How you practise the performance itself is a different matter. The best way, in my opinion, is  - after you have your piece ready – to perform it as often as possible (e.g. for friends and family). This is also practice even though it may not feel like it. Just be aware of your performance so that you can later address any point you were not happy with.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Vince]

Bernhard, this practice technique does not seem to be working for me, even though I am trying to follow the directions exactly. I am working on the last section of Chopin Ballade #4, (starting about measure 215, after the quiet succession of 6-beat chords) which is very difficult for me but a piece I would like to learn. I am working HS--the right hand is the hard part. I can not play the broken chords at speed, and I can't play the chromatic ascending minor thirds at speed. I have broken them into the smallest sections I can "master"--often just two 16th notes or one triplet and the first beat of the second set of the triplets.  And yes, I've worked the overlapping sections. But I can't put them all together--and this is without my left hand! It is very frustrating. Often, I can't get the notes to sound together. they sort of "trigger" or sound like flams or grace notes. The only rest and relaxation I get with it is to play the passage very slowly in a relaxed fashion, which feels good and sounds good, but does not contribute to playing at speed, and flies in the face of the idea of "mastering" this in little sections. Despite several weeks, I simply can't master even one ascending line of chromatic minor thirds, let alone the whole 3-bar section or the previous section of broken chords. I'm sad about the whole mess, and disappointed that the technique isn't working for me. Suggestions?
(I've been lurking for some time, and reading the entire forum.)

[Mamut]

First of all, many thanks to Bernhard for taking all the trouble to explain this so clearly.

This "method" I have heard for quite a while but never really understood the mechanichs of it. I have tried it for a week with I believe pretty good results. I encourage everyone to give it a try.

I have a couple of questions on it however...

Should the amount of 20 minute sessions that you do in a day try to ammount to a whole musical unit? (a phrase, a period, an exposition, a movement etc?) Or can the work on for example 2 bars should be left "musically" unfinished, and perfectly move to something else?

I remember Hofmann mentioning that he advised to try to play together at the end of the day all the little segments that he worked throughout the day (even if it was just once) to let the brain never loose track of the musical unity of it all.

The logic of it can hardly be disputed from what I can see, so I would recomend that on top of the method that Bernhard so eloquently put. (Although he might think it is inappropiate.... and to be quite honest he knows a lot more what he is talking about than me ) Here is hoping we get some more input from him on this.

The othe question is I guess slightly related to the previous one.

Is this method most effectively if done on the same music day after day? Is alternation possible? best? Depending on the amount of pieces to study?  

mmhh... Let me try to put it more clearly...

Let's say I have 7 different pieces to study... so I start with the method and let's say that in the first two 20 min practice sessions I cover one whole page of the 1st piece... then I move to the secon piece and spend 2 more sessions... then the next piece 2 more sessions... and let's sat that that was all the practice I had for the day...

should the next day I start with the same pieces covering the same pages?? Or should I move to different pages of the same piece? Or should I begin with all the other four that remain to be started? How many days is the maximum  before I go back to the first thing that I began in the practice sessions of the first day? Is the succes of the method dependent on the continuity of it all? If it is should I tackle the fewest possible number of pieces or movements at a time before I move on?

Since this is all about learning music correctly and fast I would appreciate any feedback... on how to tackle it all. Not to mention bringing back old pieces, chamber music, accompaning *sigh* it seems overbearing...  I have been marveled at the gtreat pianist not so much on the time they learn a new piece, but the amount of pieces that they keep "ready" under their fingers... I seem to have the need to devote myself to one piece at a time or I am afraid nothing would ever get done.  

cheers and keep up the good work.

[Mamut]

I am working on the last section of Chopin Ballade #4, (starting about measure 215, after the quiet succession of 6-beat chords) which is very difficult for me but a piece I would like to learn.

Not to answer for Bernhard but perhaps that is your problem.

Working for weeks in a few bars and still can't play hands separate?... then perhaps you are right and the ballade is too difficult at this point for you. Specially since IMO the hard part of this ballade is the musical nuances much more than the technical aspects. Why play poorly something that you like so much? Why not be patient and first build up your level (and more importantly correctly) so that the day that you are ready to play the ballade you can do a job worthy of the music?

Best of luck though.
Mamut

[bernhard]

Bernhard, this practice technique does not seem to be working for me, even though I am trying to follow the directions exactly.  

Unfortunately, verbal instructions in a forum cannot contain all the possible details. Therefore, even if you followed them strictly there would be no guarantee of success because of necessity a map is always incomplete . Even with me watching like a hawk over my students, they still do not follow instructions. It is not their fault completely, and it is not my fault completely. Communication may well turn up to be impossible after all.

I am working on the last section of Chopin Ballade #4, (starting about measure 215, after the quiet succession of 6-beat chords) which is very difficult for me but a piece I would like to learn. I am working HS--the right hand is the hard part. I can not play the broken chords at speed, and I can't play the chromatic ascending minor thirds at speed. I have broken them into the smallest sections I can "master"--often just two 16th notes or one triplet and the first beat of the second set of the triplets.  And yes, I've worked the overlapping sections. But I can't put them all together--and this is without my left hand! It is very frustrating. Often, I can't get the notes to sound together. they sort of "trigger" or sound like flams or grace notes. The only rest and relaxation I get with it is to play the passage very slowly in a relaxed fashion, which feels good and sounds good, but does not contribute to playing at speed, and flies in the face of the idea of "mastering" this in little sections. Despite several weeks, I simply can't master even one ascending line of chromatic minor thirds, let alone the whole 3-bar section or the previous section of broken chords. I'm sad about the whole mess, and disappointed that the technique isn't working for me. Suggestions?

Yes. Here is my suggestion: learn about the method on a much simpler piece. I do not really know what is your level, but the 4th ballade is one of the most difficult pieces Chopin ever wrote, and also one of the most difficult pieces of the repertory. It may well be the case as Mamut said that his piece is too difficult for you. This does not  mean that you cannot master it, but it does mean that it will take a long time and you must have the necessary patience and endurance and persevere even though you are not seeing any results.

This is also the kind of piece you tackle after you have mastered all sorts of practice tricks and learning strategies. If the practice tricks and learning strategies I have regularly written about are new to you, you must first get thoroughly acquainted with them. The way to do that is to apply them to pieces that represent no real difficulty for you. Once you are conversant with the methodology then you will be able not only to apply it to any piece as to modify it to the particular demands of specific pieces.

I do not like to leave people on a limbo though, so here is something you may try on the ballade. The bars that are giving you trouble are the most difficult bars in the whole piece, so do not expect an easy ride.

First ask yourself: What is the nature of your difficulty? Technical difficulties are always solved by the appropriate movement. Are you sure you are using the appropriate movements? There is no single answer to this question. Just watch different pianists playing it and you will se that they do no all use exactly the same movements.

So start by getting yourself a video of someone playing it and watch how they do it. You will not be able to replicate exactly what they do, but it will show you that – if they play it well at all – they manage to make it look easy. Whatever the piece you are playing, if you are struggling through it, you are using the wrong movements. The reason why superlative pianists make it look so easy, is because for them it is easy. This is a very profound statement and I urge you to reflect on it: The sole aim of practice is to turn something impossible into something easy. It is that simple.

Superlative pianists were not born finding everything easy. To them it was an uphill struggle until they figured out the way to make it easy. This is what you have to do. Watching superlative pianists play this piece will show you that it is possible to find it easy. It will also show you that what maybe the easy way for one particular pianist may be a very different way for a different pianist. So again, you must find your own way

So let us go through the chromatic thirds. I assume you will by now have decided on the fingering and memorised the notes. If you haven’t, this is the first step. Notice that startingon bar 217 (RH) there are 13 groups of three thirds. (The last group being the first three notes of bar 219). Ignore the melodic notes for the moment (the 3 quavers on the top voice), and concentrate on the thirds. You will add the melodic notes later on.

1.      Start by playing only the first group of three thirds (group 1). If necessary stay 20 minutes on it. Play it at the fastest yet comfortable speed you can manage.In the beginning this may mean pretty slow. Just keep repeating. As your body takes over and the movements become more smooth and streamlined, you will notice that speed will increase naturally simply as a result of the repetition. You have several aims at this stage: ingrain the fingering (so make sure this is indeed the final fingering you will be using), ingrain the movement, make the movement less and less clumsy (if no matter how much you repeat the movements are still clumsy, you have the wrong movements. Typically with thirds the problem is to try to do it all by raising and lowering the fingers in isolation Hanon style. You want the arms and forearms to help the fingers as much as possible, so any movement that can be done with the arm should be done with the arms). Your final aim is to be able to play these three thirds smoothly, easily in a cyclical movement (as opposed to stop-start). You want to feel like your fingers are acting independently of your mind, that you do not need to think about it, your fingers just seem to know where they should go. Once you can do that, move on to the next group of three thirds. Do not worry about overlapping about this stage. You will overlap plenty in the next step.

So if you have 13 groups of three thirds, you should go through 1 – 2 – 3 – 4 – 5  - 6- 7 – 8 – 9 – 10  - 11 – 12 – 13. In my opinion, this is too large a chunk, and I would work only on the first 7, that is 1 – 7, and later on I would go 7 – 13 (7 being the overlap group). So let us work only on the first 7 group of three thirds. Maybe you can do all of them in one 20 minute session. If you can only do the first group, that is fine. But make sure that at the end of 20 minutes you have completely mastered it. This is important. Not mastering something at the end of the session means a completely wasted session. So tackle a passage you can be sure of mastering. Leave it to the next day. Next day start by doing group no. 1 again. It may feel as if you had never seen it before. Do not get discouraged, just go through it again. You will find out that it will take you only a couple of minutes to get to the stage you got after 20 minutes the previous day. So use the rest of the session to work on group 2. Or if the previous day you mastered 1 – 2 – 3, master 4 – 5 – 6 the next day. In any case, whatever you rate of progress, as soon you master 1 – 7, move on to the next step.

2.      Now you are going to do two groups. That is 1-2; 2-3; 3-4; 4-5; 5-6; 6-7. You can now see that there is a huge amount of overlap going on. You can also see that most of the difficulties have already been tackled the day before (so only move to this next step if you have truly mastered th first one. Whatever extra time you have to spend on the first step will be handsomely rewarded on the next steps). Once you can do these new groupings perfectly, move to the next step.

3.      Now do three groups: 1-2-3; 2-3-4; 3-4-5; 4-5-6; 5-6-7.

4.      Next four groups: 1 – 2 – 3 –4 ; 2-3-4-5; 4-5-6-7

5.      Next five groups: 1-2-3-4-5; 2-3-4-5-6; 3-4-5-6-7

6.      Finally 6 groups: 1-2-3-4-5-6; 2-3-4-5-6-7

7.      Doing the full 7 group passage now should be easy. The next step is to repeat this procedure for groups 7 – 13 and then join both groups, so you can play the whole chromatic thirds section.

If you have not cut corners, and if you have stuck with each step of the process until completely mastered, by the end of it. You should be playing the section with comfort and ease. Perhaps not at an amazing speed, but nevertheless you should have experienced an noticeable improvement in accuracy an d comfort. You should also feel that your fingers “know” where to go without you having to think about it. Now you must repeat this process but with a number of variations.

1.      Do not play thirds. Instead play the top notes only (but use the final fingering you will use for thirds). Then play the bottom notes only. If necessary apply the procedure above to relearn the passage with isolated notes. Then join them together and play the sequence as thirds again.

2.      Use rhythm variations (fast-slow and the reverse slow-fast; fast-fast slow; fast slow fast and slow slow fast, etc.). You can do both as isolated notes and as thirds.

3.      Use accent variations, by accenting all the first thirds in each group of three, then every second third and then every third third.

4.      Use articulations variations: play the whole section staccato, and then legato. Or play the first third of each group staccato, then the second third and then the third third.

5.      All these variations will force you to really know the passage and they will increase your control. Problems with speed and accuracy are very often problems with memory: your fingers do not know where to go, and at a fast speed your thinking is simply not fast enough to cope with it.

6.      As you repeat the 13 groups of thirds, do not repeat continuously, but after each repeat stop, put your hands in your lap and in your mind, hear the passage you are about to play. Visualise your fingers flying through it. Hear the passage as you want it to sound. Feel the sensations of the movement. Since this is all taking place in your mind, make it perfect! It si all imaginary, so you might as well imagine it taking place absolutely perfectly. Once you are satisfied that your mental run of the passage was just like you wanted it, play it at the piano. At the end, stop again and ask yourself: Was it like I  wanted in my mind? If it was not, what was missing? Repeat the whole thing in your mind again, and play again.  Keep alternating mental practice with piano practice like that. The results will blow your mind.


I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

First of all, many thanks to Bernhard for taking all the trouble to explain this so clearly.

You are welcome

Should the amount of 20 minute sessions that you do in a day try to ammount to a whole musical unit? (a phrase, a period, an exposition, a movement etc?) Or can the work on for example 2 bars should be left "musically" unfinished, and perfectly move to something else?

I remember Hofmann mentioning that he advised to try to play together at the end of the day all the little segments that he worked throughout the day (even if it was just once) to let the brain never loose track of the musical unity of it all.  

The logic of it can hardly be disputed from what I can see, so I would recomend that on top of the method that Bernhard so eloquently put. (Although he might think it is inappropiate.... and to be quite honest he knows a lot more what he is talking about than me  ) Here is hoping we get some more input from him on this.

Yes, it should, if at all possible . It is always better to work on a section that is musically meaningful, and usually barlines are not that important. So, yes, work on phrases rather than bars. And do not wait until you get the whole piece ready to work on the musicality of it (dynamics, accents, bringing forth them melody, etc.). Start working at it at the phrase level as soon as you are confident you have acquired the necessary technique to deliver the passage.

However, some pieces are so difficult for a particular individual that this may not be possible. In extreme cases one may have to work on only two notes. In such a case, there is no point of talking about musicality until the passage has built up to a phrase. As I said before the actual size of the passage that is useful to practise should be decided by the seven repetitions routine. Anything that is not learned after seven repeats is too large to tackle, so cut it in half.

Now, if you spent, say, five 20 minutes practice sessions working on five consecutive passages of a piece, then, yes, by all means, try to put them together at the end of the day (if anything it will show you where more work is needed). But it is not necessary. The basis of this way of learning is the idea of clustering. You start by working on very small chunks. Once these are ingrained into your subconscious, you join together several small chunks which in turn become the next chunk to be practised. The method automatically takes care of the musical unity of it all.

Also you must be careful with advice from accomplished prodigies like Hoffman. They do not experience the difficulties that normal people experience. While the likes of us are struggling with two notes, these guys have already memorised the whole piece by just glancing at the score. This is just like an overweight middle aged guy trying to follow the fitness routine/advice of an Olympic athlete. Hoffman may be right, but his advice may not be appropriate, or indeed feasible, no matter how logical it is.

Is this method most effectively if done on the same music day after day? Is alternation possible? best? Depending on the amount of pieces to study?  

mmhh... Let me try to put it more clearly...  

Let's say I have 7 different pieces to study... so I start with the method and let's say that in the first two 20 min practice sessions I cover one whole page of the 1st piece... then I move to the secon piece and spend 2 more sessions... then the next piece 2 more sessions... and let's sat that that was all the practice I had for the day...  

should the next day I start with the same pieces covering the same pages?? Or should I move to different pages of the same piece? Or should I begin with all the other four that remain to be started? How many days is the maximum  before I go back to the first thing that I began in the practice sessions of the first day? Is the succes of the method dependent on the continuity of it all? If it is should I tackle the fewest possible number of pieces or movements at a time before I move on?

Consistency is the key to everything.

It does not matter how many pieces you do, or the order of the passages. But you must differentiate between short term, middle term goals and long term goals. Then you must organise your practice so that the short term goals add up to the long term goals.

Let us look at your example. You have seven pieces you want to master. This is your long term goal. You have mastered the first page of one of the pieces in the first 2 practice sessions – which was your short term goal. Let us stop here for a moment and see what will happen. What should you do next day? Well, you should try to play that first page.

What people commonly experience at this stage is that even though they have mastered a passage the previous day, come the next day they cannot even remember how it goes. It is as if they had never seen the passage before. Then they get discouraged and give up the piano he he .

If that is the case – and here is the point where most people go wrong – you must start to work on the passage again from scratch. And no one wants to do that. They all want to cut corners, They rebel. They get resentful. They sulk. It is so unfair! Do not waste time with negative thoughts and rebellion. Just do it! And usually you will find out that after a couple of minutes it all comes back.

What took you 40 minutes to work through in the first day, now takes only 10 minutes to get to the stage you were in before. Use the remaining 30 minutes of the session to really ingrain the passage in your subconscious by conscious and aware repetition. Or perhaps if you are short of time, cut the session to ten minutes, instead of 30. Next day the same thing will happen again: it will be as if the passage was completely new. Never mind that, work through it again without cutting any corners. This time it will take only a couple of minutes. Then the next day, (perhaps) you will be able to go to the piano and play the passage perfectly on the first attempt. This is what you have  been waiting for. Only when you can do that should you move on to the next passage. When you reach this stage, you will not be practising this particular passage anymore. You can play through it everyday if you wish (it should take less than a minute), but even that is not necessary.

You see, once you get to the point where you can play a passage perfectly from the first, it is yours forever. Just like riding a bicycle. But most people never get to this point. Instead the moment they think they mastered it, they move to something else and this way they never really quite master it.

Once you get to this point, you will never forget your passage piece. I am sure you have pieces you have not touched for many years, and you still can play them. And yet other pieces that you seemingly worked just as hard are gone forever. The difference is that in the pieces you can still play you have gone through this “point of no return”, while the others which you forgot, you mastered in the limited sense of being able to play at the end of a practice session, but not in the true sense of being able to play it next day.

How long this will all take will ultimately depend on the person and o the piece. Some people do learn faster, and some pieces are more difficult than others. But now at least you have a set of guidelines that tell you when to keep working on a passage and when you do not need to worry about it anymore.

So this is your first short term goal: to stick with a passage for as long as it takes to completely master it in the sense that the next day you can play it perfectly without batting an eyelid. This sort of mastery may take “mastering” the passage (in the sense of mastering at the end of the session) many times before you get there.

As I said you do not have to worry at this stage about musical continuity. As long as you have a plan and as long as you take care that your short term goals add up to your long term objectives, you can even practise different passages from different pieces in the same practice session.

This is particularly true (and useful) if you are practising hands separate. Since usually (unless you are practising counterpoint music) one of the hands is far easier than the corresponding hand. So one way to save time is to find the most difficult RH passage and the most difficult LH passage either in the same piece or in different pieces, and practise them alternating RH and LH repeats.

Since this is all about learning music correctly and fast I would appreciate any feedback... on how to tackle it all. Not to mention bringing back old pieces, chamber music, accompaning *sigh* it seems overbearing...  I have been marveled at the gtreat pianist not so much on the time they learn a new piece, but the amount of pieces that they keep "ready" under their fingers... I seem to have the need to devote myself to one piece at a time or I am afraid nothing would ever get done.

 

This reminds me of a story about the famous violinist Fritz Kreisler. Apparently Kreisler was doing an insane amount of concerts, something like 400 a year. Someone made a comment to the effect that they could not understand how Kreisler could find time to practise with so many concerts. And someone replied: “Time to practise? Practising is all he does!”

There is a deep truth there. By playing the same repertory (or parts of it) year after year, a concert pianist is effectively practising it! The problem is that non-concert pianists when they perform for friends and family always want to show their new piece (their audience is usually always the same, so to keep playing the old repertory is not very nice).

So the secret is to have a core of repertory that you always play when asked to perform, and to perform often enough so that this core is always practised. And have some sort of rota so that pieces get changed regularly (and new  ones added from time to time).

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Vince]

Bernhard,
Thank you for your advice; you are very encouraging and I appreciate it. One of my confusions is your use of the term "master," which I had interpreted as "play perfectly at speed." I understand, from your statement "perhaps not at an amazing speed" that "master" may have some wiggle room in it--provided the notes are crisp. So, perhaps I can say that I have mastered these sections at slower speed and need to master them at a greater speed? I have lots of endurance and perseverance, and so will keep at it and report back--and will follow your advice closely. I especially appreciate the statement about things looking easy because they are easy (or have become so.) It is both a mental game and a physical challenge. Much wisdom there and I appreciate it! I am choosing to persevere with this piece of music and hope to have gained something new on the other side of it--if that makes sense.

Vince

[bernhard]

You are welcome.

Yes, there are many degrees of mastering. Ultimately we never truly master anything, and there is always room for improvement (just read the thread on overrated pianists and listen to some of the criticism heaped on Horowitz, Rubinstein, Pollini, Arrau and others he he ).

However it is not a continuum. There are very definite boundaries between these stages. Once you master something, you definitely mastered it, even though you may keep refining it for the rest of your life. It is like riding a bicycle. Once you can ride it, you can definitely ride it. It feels like a very magical moment and in the beginning you are surprised that you can even do it, but somehow you can. Your body takes over and your co-ordinations gel and lo and behold you are riding a bicycle. Start analysing it and you fall. Of course this is just the beginning form then on there is no limit (except the ones you set yourself) to what can be accomplished on a bicycle (just watch any BMX show).

Likewise with a piano piece. There is a very definite and unmistakable moment when you master a piece. Your body takes over, your co-ordinations gell and suddenly you are playing the piece! Your fingers just “know” where to go, your movements all gracefully co-ordinate and lo and behold you are playing the piano! Start analysing it, and it all falls apart. In fact at his early stage, excitement about what you are accomplishing will cause you to make many mistakes. So you must get used to it, to the idea that you mastered this piece, develop a blasé attitude towards it all. Of course, this first mastering (which is what I am referring to in the previous posts) can be endlessly refined, so that there is truly no limits (except the ones you set yourself) to what can be accomplished on a piano.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Shagdac]

Interesting.....I've noticed myself that when I reach a certain phase it's almost like my body takes over and my mind shuts off, I just play a piece but am not really thinking or I guess a better word would be concentrating on the piece. But then if I start to think about it while I am playing, or even start to think about the fact that I'm NOT thinking about it, I'll mess up! Does that make sense? Also, there was a Cadenza I was working on in The Union...(you helped me with the fingering and practicing Bernhard)...anyway, I can play it well if I concentrate on looking directly above the keys or concentrate straight forward, but if I actually look at what I'm doing I can't. I was thinking it was because when I look...in my mind I'm thinking each note individually and my fingers go faster than what I am thinking. When I can't see or don't look at what I am doing....they just go now by themselves.

Just something I've noticed.

S

[mosis]

Hey Bernhard, me again.

I would just like to comment on this method. I have begun to use it for Scriabin's Prelude in F# minor op. 11 no. 8.

First, I started playing the first two measures with the right hand. After 7 tries, you were right! I knew it, and I didn't need to use the sheet music anymore. So I began to cycle those two bars (the first four notes, and the first triplet section) for about 5 minutes, and I felt that I've mastered them (I was even playing it musically.)

Then, I did the same thing for the left hand. The left hand had two different passages in those four bars; one was is repeated 3 times, the other once. So I practiced both of them seperately, then one after another, then as it should be.

I put the hands together as you said... adding one note at a time. I don't think it was 7 tries, but I managed to get the hands together properly, and practiced that four about 10 minutes more. So I think 20 or so minutes went into this, and the first four bars were mastered.

The next day, I sat down at the piano and was ready to experience what you said: "You will sit down at the piano and not remember them at all!"

Not true. I remember it all. I couldn't play it as securely, that is, I needed to practice hands seperately slowly for a bit, but none of the notes slipped from my memory. Within a few tries, I had the first four bars mastered once again.

I repeated this with the next four bars; the left hand was more difficult, so I needed more practice time on it (but still, it DOES take 7 repetitions to memorize something) but eventually, I put it all together and had the first 8 bars memorized and mastered.

I'm pretty sure that when I sit down at the piano tomorrow, I'll still have it memorized, but I'll just need some slow practice to get my hands doing what they should be.

So I ask you, when does it happen that you completely forget a passage? I hardly completely forgot it in that case, but I did need work just to get everything co-ordinated. Is that what you mean, or do you really mean forgetting every single note?

Also, how can I judge how much I can do at a time? I think every piece will go awfully slowly if I take it 4 bars a day... but I'm not sure how much I can handle at a time, so that I can master it within the time period and memorize it after 7 tries. This is the first time I've really tried this out from scratch, so I don't want to screw up, but I also want to be efficient.

Thanks again.

[bernhard]

You are welcome.

First let me say this: To start with do not worry to much about learning a piece by using this method (any method actually). Instead approach it from the other end: Learn about the method by using a piece . It is often useful to use pieces that are far easier for that purpose, rather than tackle the impossible pieces straightaway.

Every method needs to be adapted to the person and to the piece. Every method has limitations going hand in hand with their strengths. So start by thoroughly exploring the method and seeing where are its strong and weak points.

It seems to me alike you are doing everything right and are reaping some benefits. Now for your questions:

So I ask you, when does it happen that you completely forget a passage? I hardly completely forgot it in that case, but I did need work just to get everything co-ordinated. Is that what you mean, or do you really mean forgetting every single note?

Maybe you are lucky and it will never happen to you! It is just something that I see happening often (it certainly has happened to me) and I therefore give people a warning so that they do not get discouraged if it happens to them. It may also happen that the next day you can play it perfectly, in which case you mastered it! Move on!

Also, how can I judge how much I can do at a time? I think every piece will go awfully slowly if I take it 4 bars a day... but I'm not sure how much I can handle at a time, so that I can master it within the time period and memorize it after 7 tries. This is the first time I've really tried this out from scratch, so I don't want to screw up, but I also want to be efficient.

Use the 7 repeats to decide how large is the chunk you can tackle. If you think you can tackle 8 bars, go for it. Maybe you can tackle a whole piece! I have learned 8 page pieces in 20 minutes by just going through them 7 times. Of course, if after 7 times the whole thing is a mess, cut it in half and try again. Eventually you will get to a size you can learn in 7 repeats.

You can also play different sections of a piece in different practice sessions. You do not need to learn only 4 bars a day. What I suggest is that you learn 4 bars (more if you can tackle it) in a single practise session of 20 minutes. But if you can fit 5 practice sessions in a day (about 2 hours) then you can learn 20 bars! The most efficient way to do this is to tackle the most difficult bars first.

And yes, maybe (for certain pieces) it will go awfully slowly, but the question is: will it go any faster by any other method? In my experience the answer is no. (Ashkenazy is reputed to have worked on Chopin OP. 10 no. 1 for 3 years before he felt that he could play it in public. So sometimes it is a slow process. Or maybe he was just using some very inefficient method from the Russian School he he he )

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[mosis]

Ah, I'm glad that I'm doing it correctly, thank you very much.

I definitely agree with your "learn the method using pieces," logic. That's why I've began learning it using easier pieces (for me, at least) before attempting to apply it to bigger pieces (I'm trying to forget Pathetique so that I an apply this more efficient method to it and master it better than I previously had.)

[maxy]

a) can't say really, I never needed exercises to "stretch" hands.  I do fear it can be dangerous.

b)being double jointed, my thumb is quite flexible. I could not imagine any exercice that would help its cause.

c)nah... De La Rocha played everything! Rep should not be chosen to accomodate handspan.  One should specialize in what one likes!  Anyhow, I do believe we naturally tend to like what fits well into our hands.    

d)none, when I spend time on the net, it means I am in no mood to practice.

I believe I have average sized hands: I can reach an octave with 2-5, an octave with 1-2.  Fully stretched I can reach an 11th with 1-5.

[allthumbs]

Greetings

Bach...  The great "emancipator of the thumb."  

I'm all for using thumbs!
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk, woohoo!

Cheers


allthumbs


Sorry - That was bad!

[pizno]

Bernard

I am curious about the 15-20 minutes of practice and have some practical questions.  Say I am working on a piece and I can pretty much ready through it with few problems.  When do I know if I have 'learned it' and when I am merely reading it?  If I can play through a passage, my temptation is to go on to the next one until I find something I stumble over.  However, The problem here is that I often then take on too much, and never really learn what I am working on.  Also, you didn't mention the tempo one should work on something.  It is one thing to be able to play it slowly, but another to get it up to tempo.  I am assuming you mean to start slowly, and gradually increase the tempo throughout the week.

And let me see if I understand this, if I have 2 hours to practice, and I am working hard on one piece, are you saying to give 15-20 minutes to one passage, then move on the the next, then the next?  I'm trying to figure out how much is too much to try to learn in one sitting.

After reading your post, I know I am guilty of trying to take on too much at once, and I just keep slopping through the music.  That is a big challenge, to focus on just one small part!

Thanks, and I hope I am making sense.

[pizno]

Nevermind!  I just saw a whole page of messages that I missed at first.  I now completely get it, and am eager to try this approach.

[Glyptodont]

As for the psychology of learning, I've really enjoyed reading this thread.  I would like to toss in the concept of "concentration." 

Many many years ago I shot competition archery.  There was an old man who was the champion and did amazing things.  Like shooting 30 consecutive bulls-eyes.  I asked him what was his secret.

He said "concentration."  He said that with enough concentration, a person could take a bent broomstick for a bow and some sticks for arrows and hit every target.  This gentleman was not a zen master, just a hard working citizen.  But he was right.

I find that sometimes when my concentration is very good, like early in the morning for me, I can play pieces almost flawlessly.   When my concentration is very good, I even miss phone calls because I just don't react to the sound of a ringing phone.

When my concentration lapses, as when I am tired or maybe have some problem on my mind, I start making stupid mistakes. 

I stop playing then because I am afraid I am going to "learn" the mistakes. 

It is difficult to summon up concentration on order.  That is why it must be terrible to be a professional, concert pianist.  What if your concentration is weak or you feel tired?  You still have to play in front of hundreds of people.

[Dazzer]

reply to the topic:

Not big enough.

[celticqt]

Bernhard: This may be a stupid question, but does this 20-minute method work for memorizing as well?

[bernhard]

Bernhard: This may be a stupid question, but does this 20-minute method work for memorizing as well?

Memorising is far more tiring than practice (physical) at the piano, so 20 minutes is probably far too much. Memorising requires complete concentration and focus. This is not something people are usually trained to do, specially in our modern society that encourages (eg action movies, TV) fast changes, and where everybody gets "bored" in a couple of minutes.

Proper memory traning is similar to bringing an unfit personto marathon level. They cannot go from couch potatoes to 26 miles in under 4 hours in a week. Likewise, start memory training in very small periods of time (2 - 3 minutes) and increase 1 minute per week (or even per month). What is reallyimportant is consistency, that is doing it everyday.

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[bernhard]

As for the psychology of learning, I've really enjoyed reading this thread.  I would like to toss in the concept of "concentration." 

I agree, concentration is very important. Have a look here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2082.msg17230.html#msg17230
(how to concentrate).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2061.msg17178.html#msg17178
(how to deal with boredom)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2241.msg19043.html#msg19043
(short attention span)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5179.msg49593.html#msg49593
(concentration, attention and consciousness)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[toomuchrice]

im just really curious, does anyone know the reach of martha argerich's hands

[dinosaurtales]

Boy Bernhard, do you get sick of being right all the time?

I tried your 20-minutes-on-5-off method for a few days - I am fighting a big deadline on a couple of pieces, so I thought I'd give it a try.  Here's what I did (slightly modified for simplcity of my mind)

I broke out my day into how many 20 minutes-plus 10 (I took longer breaks) and picked oiut the sections of music I would work on for a few days. The improvement over even 3 days was incredible!  The only thing is, I would challenge anybody here to actually DO this for a five hour stretch of practice.  The key to success, I surmise, is that you CONCENTRATE for the whole 20 minutes on that section.  If you actually DO this, you will be EXHAUSTED after 8 or 9 of these little sessions.  i was.  My brain was totally fried.  But it really works!

Thanks, Bernhard!

Mindy

[Glyptodont]

This is a reply to Bernhard and the messages dealing with concentration, above.

One hour before going to my lesson yesterday, I just did not feel very good.  I tried to play a little warm-up, and I was making too many mistakes.  What to do?

My lesson is at 6:00 p.m.   This is not one of my better times of the day.

I ate a small sandwich, because I had not eaten in about 5 hours.  I had a small glass of cabernet. I sat down and relaxed for about 20 minutes.  Finally, I parked some distance away from the studio and walked three blocks to the studio. 

This was not one of my best lessons, but it definitely could have been a lot worse, too.  I played the Chopin Waltz in A Minor, Op. 34 No. 2.  There were some mistakes.  Oddly, sometimes I played a passage mistake free, but then when the passage repeated two pages later I made mistakes.  The teacher told me, "you always play waltzes well."  This is partly a compliment, but may imply criticism as well, because she implies I should be playing other things than waltzes not so good! 

I went out and read all the posts dealing with concentration that you listed.  Thank you.

[aajjmb]

just to let you know..... you've written like 3 essays!!!!! I find it funny that on pianoforum everyone actually uses punctuation and stuff and then on other forums "pps dont bother 2do proper 3nglish".....
I like you idea about the subconcious..... therefore i won't feel guilty if i don't practise for a week....i just need a bit more time for my subconsience to digest that piece!

[sephethus]

Does this 7x20 rule work for people learning more than just how to play a piece? Like, I'm learning jazz improv AND I am also learning classical pieces simultaneously.  So part of my time is spent learning swing, harmony, chords and scales, creating motifs, etc, the other part is spent just learning a classical piece or two.

[iratior]

My apologies if the ensuing text is repeated.  I was saying, I don't know about the problems of pianists with thick fingers.  But when I try to play Chopin's opus 10 no. 1, and reach the killer arpeggio in A-major, I'm just not going to believe anyone who insists that my task would be no easier if my little finger were a half-inch longer

[pianoplayjl]

max span: C to E for both hands.

[pianoplayjl]

I found out that as I played the piano my hands were more flexible.