'Individual secrets in piano learning' are… fake.

[m19834]

That said, as funny as it might sound, I actually might be interested.
I am on the board of directors of a non-profit project, which involves providing music education to minorities and kids from poor families, which includes scholarships and donating pianos to those kids. We also organize workshops and multi-discipline concerts.
I have no idea yet how it might work, what is our budget, and definitely will need to review a few other softwares on the market, but I might contact you in a future, if I may.

Best, M

Though I myself have already had exchanges with M4U, and have decided since then it is of little use to continue to do so (and therefore did not feel inclined to chime in with this particular thread) I simply must comment suddenly.

While I am not "against" the idea of music reading and piano playing being a common part of every child's upbringing, I have run into something here that I can't ignore.  I accept students of all ages, as it seems you do as well.  Some of them have had differing backgrounds in music already, and with that sometimes there are "habits" that are in need of reform.  As you have watched these videos and have brought up particular aspects that you feel are issues, I have to ask, if this software became a mandatory means of every child learning music in school, and the learning being guided by individuals whom are either simply fulfilling a state requirement and don't truly care (nor have true time to care) whether or not each child thoroughly learns the system, or is just plainly under-qualified to guide individuals in more aspects of music reading and piano playing than just learning how to use the software (which is what I suspect the extent of M4U's "training" of willing teachers is in this case) -- how would you personally feel about accepting a student that has already had his/her initial introduction to music in this way ? 

Perhaps you would have no qualms about that, but I would personally think twice about it, based on what I have seen in the videos.  The only way I would use this software is if I were sitting there watching and guiding every, single step forward -- ESPECIALLY in the beginning.  And, that is simply not going to happen in a classroom setting, especially in a public school (which is M4U's ultimate goal, it seems, to have it everywhere (as she has basically stated)).  And, if accepting a student after being manditorily "raised" on this software is problematic in individual cases (as in I would not wish for my own, private students to be publically "raised" by this software simultaneously with me trying to guide them in their first steps privately), why should it be acceptable for masses ?  Especially since those masses would eventually be sitting in the studios ?

As I said, I am not against the musical education of "all" -- though, there are "issues" with that.  I am more worried about the quality of it, but then again, the quality of education in general is quite sufferable as it is, despite teachers "doing their best."  I even agree with some of M4U's concepts and have "learned" from her posting here and putting forth ideas, I am just suddenly having a teaching nightmare !

[musicrebel4u]

While I am not "against" the idea of music reading and piano playing being a common part of every child's upbringing, I have run into something here that I can't ignore.  I accept students of all ages, as it seems you do as well.  Some of them have had differing backgrounds in music already, and with that sometimes there are "habits" that are in need of reform.  As you have watched these videos and have brought up particular aspects that you feel are issues, I have to ask, if this software became a mandatory means of every child learning music in school, and the learning being guided by individuals whom are either simply fulfilling a state requirement and don't truly care (nor have true time to care) whether or not each child thoroughly learns the system, or is just plainly under-qualified to guide individuals in more aspects of music reading and piano playing than just learning how to use the software (which is what I suspect the extent of M4U's "training" of willing teachers is in this case) -- how would you personally feel about accepting a student that has already had his/her initial introduction to music in this way ? 

Karli, it seems like you still didn't 'get it' – no offence!
Maybe, there is some 'lost in translation' issues. Well, I will try again.
NATURAL COGNITIVE DEVELOPMENT – what is it?
When any learner had already absorbed 75% of information and have to figure out 25%.
Examples:
I go to _____  In this case unknown 1/3 of information and it is hard to figure out the rest. School? Store? Swimming pool?
I go to _____ to swim – here unknown just 25% information and you can figure out the rest.

The same with picture and a letter next to it.
Child see Apple, he/she suppose to know what apple is, they suppose to know how to pronounce APPLE and they have to identify abstract symbol at the picture as a letter. The rest – 25% of info – they can figure out – letter A.

We analyzed music notation from cognitive point of development and provided natural links to any beginners learned experience leaving 25% of information at a time.

The answer to your question  is:

If our kids learn letters of Alphabet with ABC books, they even learn how to read books, how bad is it for their future education at school?

Another point: is it better to use ONE SIZE FITS ALL music notation format for the sake of tradition like we did it in 16 century teaching children with adult book's format or to provide healthy balance between their coordination and reading development?

[musicrebel4u]

. If spaces and lines are the same tracks, they are presented in the same width at the elementary level. Beginners won't think that the white track is just a break between lines.

[m19834]

Karli, it seems like you still didn't 'get it' – no offence!

Oh, no offense taken because it is clearly you who does not get it .  Honestly, I couldn't care less about the rest of your post because it is all stuff I have seen before and will do with it as I please.  Now, let me try once again :

*  Sound should be the leading factor in both visual recognition of music as well as motional recognition in music.

*  Children and people need to learn from the very beginning how to *listen*, not how to *see* -- and this should be the starting point of their cognitive learning, thank you very much.

*  Children being willing to pay attention to a computer screen more than a person is not progressive for the race and it is not a problem of music, it is a problem of society.

*  Children/Students must be taught by example how a HUMAN relates to the instrument, whether they are taught subliminally by watching their teacher play, or consciously by having their teacher show them exactly what to do.

*  How many students raised on this software, having heard a computer play their music, truly learn how to appreciate music in the ways that you preach all people should do ?

*  How many more people are sitting in concert halls, supporting professional musicians because they have learned how to play the piano using softmozart ?

*  Children/people need to learn to *hear* how a human being phrases a passage, and that is what learning how to "speak" the language of music IS.

*  If my student is constantly staring at some screen, I can't help him in any of those ways above and the influence of the sound in his/her ears is similar to having a robot hug your child for you.

*  None of my students have progressed more rapidly as a result of the demos they have "played" with.

*  They get bored of it.

*  I was asking Marik a question, not you.

*  Good bye for now.

[musicrebel4u]

2.   If music notes are all either on spaces or on lines, they are displayed in two contrasting colors for the beginners' eyes to instantly catch the difference.

3.   If the treble and base clefs are two different systems, they are presented in two different colors, for example, colors of a tree. It would help to explain the gradual changes in pitch - from dark to light, from trunk to crown.

4.   If the music notes go up and down, and the corresponding keys go from right to left, they are lined up by turning the Grand Staff sideways in the elementary presentation to help beginners to see a straight link between them right away

5             If the music notes have only seven names for all the keys and sounds, they are labeled with the names to help beginners see the relationship easily, without having to struggle to look for information.

[musicrebel4u]

Sound should be the leading factor in both visual recognition of music as well as motional recognition in music.

In our system SOUND is a leading factor – not voice of teacher who is talkingtalkingtalking explainingexplainingexplaining and won't shut up, because our kids start playing from the very first minute.

*  Children and people need to learn from the very beginning how to *listen*, not how to *see* -- and this should be the starting point of their cognitive learning, thank you very much.

Agree! But they listen themselves better then others! When child produce their own piece they remember and absorb it better then id it would be played even by Mozart alive! So, you are very welcome!

Children being willing to pay attention to a computer screen more than a person is not progressive for the race and it is not a problem of music, it is a problem of society.

If it is such a problem, why are you writing to me by typing? Send me snail letters written with goose feather and ink!
Music is a language and INTERACTIVITY is the best way to learn it. Intimate interactivity between a beginner and LANGUAGE without sometimes talkingtalkingtalking and intimidating teacher

Children/Students must be taught by example how a HUMAN relates to the instrument, whether they are taught subliminally by watching their teacher play, or consciously by having their teacher show them exactly what to do.

Playing music is a SKILL. You can't learn how to ride a bike by watching teacher riding it and showing to them how beautifully they are doing it. Let children RIDE and ask you for your help when they would NEED your help, OK?

How many students raised on this software, having heard a computer play their music, truly learn how to appreciate music in the ways that you preach all people should do ?

ALL my students. They care less about COMPUTER playing music – all they care, how THEY learn their favorite music. There is a RULE#1 in learning: PEOPLE APPETIATE LEARNING WHEN THEY C_A_N DO IT!

How many more people are sitting in concert halls, supporting professional musicians because they have learned how to play the piano using softmozart ?

Every year 100-200 more. Tomorrow there will be millions. Because there is another RULE – RULE #2: YOU AFRAID TO LOSE SOMETHING, YPU CARE, IF YOU HAD IT IN THE FIRST  PLACE. People, who plays and read music care.

Children/people need to learn to *hear* how a human being phrases a passage, and that is what learning how to "speak" the language of music IS.

Children hear music in their mother wombs and almost every minute of their life! Don't force phrases and passages on them before they would ASK you for it, otherwise it is a SPAM. Beatles, Rolling Stones, Sinatra, Elvis – they didn't have a mentor who was explaining to them about phrasing! Com'on! Be realistic!

If my student is constantly staring at some screen, I can't help him in any of those ways above and it's similar to having a computer hug your child for you.

Of cause it is much smarter all lesson long be a computer and tell your student 'HERE IS C # C# C# C# C#' 'till  he 'get'it. I prefer use my lesson time for more sophisticated and fun staff.

*  None of my students have progressed more rapidly as a result of the demos they have "played" with.

Gosh, DEMO is not for students to progress, DEMO is for teacher to get the concept)))))

They get bored of it.

Sure they got bored! There are 3 small levels and they are repeating forever))))))))))))))

I was asking Marik a question, not you.

Of cause, Marik is the best source of information about Soft Mozart)))

Good bye for now.

You're very welcome! You made my day – I didn't laugh so hard for a month already))))

[yuc4h]

Gosh, DEMO is not for students to progress, DEMO is for teacher to get the concept)))))
Sure they got bored! There are 3 small levels and they are repeating forever))))))))))))))

I guess something was lost in translation 

[musicrebel4u]

I guess something was lost in translation 

You know, I receive many letters from different countries, letters from people with PH.D, from scientists, writers, musicians, politics - the letter from people, who just saw it once and got it!

So, maybe it is not 'translation'? Maybe, it is ignorance? Isn't it more comfortable to charge students hourly and teach them one piece forever ('till they would be 'perfect' or... else)  and then when the student drops out, take advantage from new exciting and naive students/parents? How convinient, isn't it?

https://newsblaze.com/story/2006102508300200001.ew/topstory.html

[m19834]

That's it rebel, work it on out !! C'mon girl, you can do it !!  Just a little more... let it all out !!

Oh, and btw, could you please pass the pepper while you are at it ?

[son wolsi]

I'm all for implementing science into piano pedalogy (this topic is about science right???)

but it has to actually have some sort of factual basis? 

[m19834]

M4U, you are going to *love* this  --

I just thought of what would make your product even better.  You should invent a machine that would sell your product for you, so you don't have to act like the robutt by posting the same things over and over.  I am pretty sure that scientists and politicians would "get" this right away, as I think something similar already exists in telemarketing.  After all, intimate interaction for the buyer with the selling process itself (through a machine that is selling a machine) is so much more effective than hearing (or reading) the inventor of the machine talk and talk and talk ... !!  Just for the record, this invention would have my patent on it (however, I have offered this advice to you for free ... unless you would like to donate to the cause, of cause)  .

My dream is to have in every household, school, and brains of the world, machines selling machines (selling machines (selling machines (selling machines (selling machines (selling machines (selling machines (selling machines (selling machines(selling machines (selling machines (selling machines (selling machines)))))))))))).  This will be the day when all war will end, and all people will be holding hands and humm together like machines.

[m]

Though I myself have already had exchanges with M4U, and have decided since then it is of little use to continue to do so (and therefore did not feel inclined to chime in with this particular thread) I simply must comment suddenly.

While I am not "against" the idea of music reading and piano playing being a common part of every child's upbringing, I have run into something here that I can't ignore.  I accept students of all ages, as it seems you do as well.  Some of them have had differing backgrounds in music already, and with that sometimes there are "habits" that are in need of reform.  As you have watched these videos and have brought up particular aspects that you feel are issues, I have to ask, if this software became a mandatory means of every child learning music in school, and the learning being guided by individuals whom are either simply fulfilling a state requirement and don't truly care (nor have true time to care) whether or not each child thoroughly learns the system, or is just plainly under-qualified to guide individuals in more aspects of music reading and piano playing than just learning how to use the software (which is what I suspect the extent of M4U's "training" of willing teachers is in this case) -- how would you personally feel about accepting a student that has already had his/her initial introduction to music in this way ? 

Perhaps you would have no qualms about that, but I would personally think twice about it, based on what I have seen in the videos.  The only way I would use this software is if I were sitting there watching and guiding every, single step forward -- ESPECIALLY in the beginning.  And, that is simply not going to happen in a classroom setting, especially in a public school (which is M4U's ultimate goal, it seems, to have it everywhere (as she has basically stated)).  And, if accepting a student after being manditorily "raised" on this software is problematic in individual cases (as in I would not wish for my own, private students to be publically "raised" by this software simultaneously with me trying to guide them in their first steps privately), why should it be acceptable for masses ?  Especially since those masses would eventually be sitting in the studios ?

Karli,

Of course, I realize this problem. I had kids coming to me from bad teachers, Yamaha, or Suzuki schools (which concept seems to be on completely opposite side than soft Mozart, albeit, more attractive). Kids become completely crippled and sometimes it takes YEARS to get rid of bad habits received in just first half a year of lessons. With horror I watch those young kids Musicrebel has posted. Apparently bad pedagogical work esp. on the first steps of introducing music in my mind, brings more harm than advantages of the fact kids somehow can read notes.
Here I should make a very clear distinction between "read notes" and "read music"--those are two completely different concepts and it is very clear to me that Soft Mozart is uncapable introducing what "read music" means, so you don't need to convince me about all the flaws, and of course, in this respect I will never be convinced that "quantity turns into quality".

That being said, the whole system of music education (esp. in US) is generally on such a low level!
In whole our district (about million people) there are only 4 public schools, which at least have music piano labs (I am not even touching the subject of quality of teaching there). Most of the schools (even private for rich) don't have even that and of course, the "music lessons" there are just a miserable joke.
Besides, our program is for those who will never be able to afford any piano lessons--single mothers, who bust their as..es in WalMart for minimum weiges, just to be able to survive, pay rent, and feed their kids, who never even see their moms who come home after 12 hours shift, just for the next day to do the same; minorities, who live 5 families in a two bedroom shack and have no idea how piano looks like, etc.etc. etc.

There is not much we can do, except introduce the concept that "there is such an instrument, called 'piano'", make workshops, organize concerts, donate pianos, establish scholarships for the most talented and motivated kids, work with schools...
I am still trying to figure out what would be the best and most efficient ways of doing things and believe me, the reason I started looking into software band aids is not because the life is so nice and beautiful, and in this respect even "at least something" is better than "nothing at all". Besides, since it is non-profit, the budget is very limited and we depend only on the donations and sponsorship...

If you or anybody else have any fresh ideas I will be more than happy to hear them.

Best, M

[musicrebel4u]

With horror I watch those young kids Musicrebel has posted. Apparently bad pedagogical work esp. on the first steps of introducing music in my mind, brings more harm than advantages of the fact kids somehow can read notes.

I wish to hear which performences were such horrible and what is wrong with it. Many professionals from different countries were watching the videos and never said anything to me. Please, be more specific with examples from my videos.

Also I would like to see your videos of students - not 1 or 2, but at least 10-15 to be able to see the difference.

[m]

The answer to your question  is:

If our kids learn letters of Alphabet with ABC books, they even learn how to read books, how bad is it for their future education at school?

As I see it, the main flaw of your system is the fact that it is in fact, not the same. When kids read books, they know the concepts introduced in the books. Should you give the kid "King Lear" or "Romeo and Julia", kids will never understand what's the heck is going on, albeit they will be able to "read" it. As I have already written, to teach to read the notes and to teach to read the music are two completely different concepts and NONE of the kids you posted can read music. So what's the whole fuss about?

Isn't it more comfortable to charge students hourly and teach them one piece forever ('till they would be 'perfect' or... else)  and then when the student drops out, take advantage from new exciting and naive students/parents? How convinient, isn't it?

I think you deliberately distorting things here with a clear intention to prepare some ground just to plug in the stance about your "revolutionary" system.

To put things straight,

Never seen kids quitting because of become perfect. Yes, kids can quit, but that would be because of their teachers lack of creativity, enthusiasm, imagination, love for teaching, mindless and soulless drilling.

Re: perfection:

It seems that now you are blaming me I teach professionally and help kids to become culturally educate people, giving them tools for expressing themselves on a high professional level, engaging and fostering their imagination and trying to pull out the best personal qualities they have, helping them to realize who they are?

I believe, once kids get the smell of perfection in one discipline, it teaches them responsibility in others and ultimately, to succeed in the life. I strongly believe a doctor who is also a good musician is much better doctor than a doctor who is just a mediocre note sight-reader, who has no idea what music is all about.

You say something about 1-2 pieces from method books a semester, I say, at every single time my students play at least 5 different pieces of different styles, moods, etc. Indeed, some of them we work till perfection, but most of them (esp. on the early stages of introducing piano) I give only as to introduce some kind of “concept” I need at that moment. Once the student got the concept we just move on, regardless the piece is perfected, or not. By the second year the student is already through whole children Menuetti, etc. book, entire Kabalevsky, almost whole Burgmuller, and already way into Tchaikowsky scores. What method are you talking about?

BTW, may I take a liberty and give you a little suggestion. Please stop your constant bombarding with pictures, videos, as well as name-droppings, as in fact, it is EXTREMELY annoying and serves you completely contrary purpose. As I said earlier, the only thing I am interested in is a final result. NONE of the kids in your videos display any hint of advancement, and mostly show poor pedagogical work.
You say the main thing is interaction, I say the main thing is self-expression and a deep personal contact between teacher and the kid.
From what I see in your videos, the kids don’t have ANY idea what they are playing and have no idea what to express, to start with. So what’s the point?

Best, M

[keypeg]

not voice of teacher who is talkingtalkingtalking explainingexplainingexplaining and won't shut up,

Musicrebel4U - I have had many lessons in which not one word was spoken in an hour.  In my first lessons especially, there was hardly a word spoken. What is there to explain?  It is shown - a student tries.  You glance, the teacher nods, or makes a small gesture.  Have you ever seen a Heifetz masterclass?  Or Pavarotti?

[m19834]

Karli,

Of course, I realize this problem. I had kids coming to me from bad teachers, Yamaha, or Suzuki schools (which concept seems to be on completely opposite side than soft Mozart, albeit, more attractive). Kids become completely crippled and sometimes it takes YEARS to get rid of bad habits received in just first half a year of lessons. With horror I watch those young kids Musicrebel has posted. Apparently bad pedagogical work esp. on the first steps of introducing music in my mind, brings more harm than advantages of the fact kids somehow can read notes.
Here I should make a very clear distinction between "read notes" and "read music"--those are two completely different concepts and it is very clear to me that Soft Mozart is uncapable introducing what "read music" means, so you don't need to convince me about all the flaws, and of course, in this respect I will never be convinced that "quantity turns into quality".

That being said, the whole system of music education (esp. in US) is generally on such a low level!
In whole our district (about million people) there are only 4 public schools, which at least have music piano labs (I am not even touching the subject of quality of teaching there). Most of the schools (even private for rich) don't have even that and of course, the "music lessons" there are just a miserable joke.
Besides, our program is for those who will never be able to afford any piano lessons--single mothers, who bust their as..es in WalMart for minimum weiges, just to be able to survive, pay rent, and feed their kids, who never even see their moms who come home after 12 hours shift, just for the next day to do the same; minorities, who live 5 families in a two bedroom shack and have no idea how piano looks like, etc.etc. etc.

There is not much we can do, except introduce the concept that "there is such an instrument, called 'piano'", make workshops, organize concerts, donate pianos, establish scholarships for the most talented and motivated kids, work with schools...
I am still trying to figure out what would be the best and most efficient ways of doing things and believe me, the reason I started looking into software band aids is not because the life is so nice and beautiful, and in this respect even "at least something" is better than "nothing at all". Besides, since it is non-profit, the budget is very limited and we depend only on the donations and sponsorship...

If you or anybody else have any fresh ideas I will be more than happy to hear them.

Best, M

Well, the thing is, I am not altogether against "softmozart" in terms of its ability to "reach" the masses.  As a matter of fact, my husband will be teaching a 6 week piano course for elementary students this coming year, and he has never had a piano lesson himself in his life !  Why is he doing this ??  Because we need food on our table and that is what he is being given.  In any event, I have been considering softmozart for this very purpose, and that is what started me thinking, and thinking hard about what I would be endorsing.  And, when I put it in the context of one of those students possibly coming to me, I realized that it is one thing to see and hear problems on youtube, but it is whole other problem to have it sitting in my studio !  That is not to say I would not accept a student under these circumstances, I just realize that my work would be cut out for me if I did (not that there would have been nothing learned).  

As it turns out, I will be designing the curriculum for that course, and yes, this is in an area where there is very low income, over-worked, broken-home families, who sometimes literally hunt for their meals !

So, yes, I have some very fresh ideas, actually.  The top one being to reform absolutely everything -- OVERNIGHT -- about the way education is carried out and how society is structured in the US.  Obviously, that is not going to happen.  But, I have today suddenly found myself wanting to design a plan that would indeed reform everything about the government, everything about education, everything about how the world is run !!   hee hee.... but, sounds a little familiar, doesn't it ?

In any case, right now, my ideas are probably too big and need to be whittled down a bit.  In some sense I don't really care all that much if softmozart goes into the schools or not, but I do care about whether or not people are really thinking about what that means to the education.  Along those lines, just because picture books and children's books were invented and are utilized in schools doesn't mean that everybody has learned to actually read (as a matter of fact, one of my students is a  teacher at a local, (expensive) private school.  She just recently ran into a 6th grader who had been raised in private school without anybody "catching" the fact that she had absolutely no reading comprehension skills.  She could read and write, but had no idea what it means !).  I was questioning in the last hours if truly "something" is better than "nothing" ?  I actually don't know.

I suppose it would be interesting to consider what the value of being able to read and write music actually are, vs. just valuing music in general.  Almost everybody already values music in some way.  This last season I spent 4 months giving Opera (!) concerts to kids who actually had built-up dirt on their faces and bodies, over-sized stained clothing and big circles under their eyes.  We gave concerts in gyms with zero heat in the middle of winter, and whose roofs were falling in.  We gave concerts to kids who didn't even have a school anymore and instead were located in a small room at some kind of old "base."  But, somehow, even though most of these kids had never heard anything like what we gave them before, they were absolutely thrilled !  They loved it and they stayed interested the entire time !  They asked questions like how do you sing so pretty ?  Where is the magic land of Opera ?  And they wanted to see and hear more.   Anyway.  I suppose I feel at base-level that they need more exposure to just the music itself.  More, more, more.  They need more immersion in the language so they have it in their ears, and a good old pencil and staff-paper isn't such a bad idea, really.  Or white boards and erasable pens.  I don't know what the answers are.

[m]

I wish to hear which performences were such horrible and what is wrong with it. Many professionals from different countries were watching the videos and never said anything to me. Please, be more specific with examples from my videos.

As I have already mentioned, I don't really care what "professionals from different countries" said (or did not say, for that matter). The only thing I trust is my eyes and my ears, but as far as what "professionals said" goes, Pianowolfi, as well as somebody else here have already pointed those out, and I agree with them.

Also I would like to see your videos of students - not 1 or 2, but at least 10-15 to be able to see the difference.

Sorry, I never had at the same time that many beginner kids. I never was taking videos of them, first, because I never thought one day I might need to prove something, and second, I just... don't have a video camera  . I have somewhere a video of my studio recital, but have no idea where, as we moved twice since then. If I ever find it I will let you know.
On the other hand, for any other experienced professional who worked with kids and know them, most of the time it is enough even one example of pedagogical work (of course, providing the student is a normal kid).

[musicrebel4u]

As I have already mentioned, I don't really care what "professionals from different countries" said (or did not say, for that matter). The only thing I trust is my eyes and my ears.
And BTW, as far as what "professionals said" goes, Pianowolfi, as well as somebody else here have already pointed those out, and I agree with them.

Sorry, I never had at the same time that many beginner kids. I never was taking videos of them, first, because I never thought one day I might need to prove something, and second, I just... don't have a video camera  .
On the other hand, for any other experienced professional who worked with kids and know them, most of the time it is enough even one example of pedagogical work (of course, providing the student is a normal kid).

Well, let me disagree with you
Teaching is a science.
I am Master Degreed professional with 17 years of strict music training + 30+ years of experience. My articles and books are published in different countries and I record all the moves I make with my students for the sake of science and for collection important data.
As you see, I take my project very seriousely.
If people come to my seminars, they read my books and articles before head and before they judge ANY of my students, they study all the concept carefully, because - well - I am a pioneer of this approach.
It took you a glance to understand that my students are crippled?
Well, you have to show me good work then.
Or... you better learn more about the concept as a professional and be more specific in your criticizm

[m]

I am Master Degreed professional with 17 years of strict music training + 30+ years of experience. My articles and books are published in different countries and I record all the moves I make with my students for the sake of science and for collection important data.
As you see, I take my project very seriousely.
If people come to my seminars, they read my books and articles before head and before they judge ANY of my students, they study all the concept carefully, because - well - I am a pioneer of this approach.
It took you a glance to understand that my students are crippled?
Well, you have to show me good work then.
Or... you better learn more about the concept as a professional and be more specific in your criticizm

Well, I am a Ph.D professional with +30+ years very strict training (and still in training, BTW), including Moscow Conservatory (you have already mentioned whom this institution gave to the music world, so for sake of space saving I will ommit that part). I taught in every level of musical institutions in a few different countries, from music school, colledge, up to University, without mentioning my private teaching experience. My former students have entered into such famous and prestigious schools as Gnessin Institute in Moscow, Swelink Academy in Amsterdam, University of Tel-Aviv, ASU, among others. Besides, being a concert pianist myself, somehow I believe I know little bit about this instrument.
As you can see I also have some credentials and not exactly a non-serious novice, or amateurish wannabe.

I looked at the links about your system you provided very carefully, looked at your website, took time to listen to your students, asked quite a few questions about all that and was very specific in my criticism and reservations. Unfortunately, it did not seem you had time for answering my questions, or just provided some typical salesman BS, I am (as you could imagine) not interested in. Moreover, it seems you are very selective and prefer to touch facts and subjects, which only suit your own agenda, so may be it is not about me, but about you... 

So if you call yourself professional, please at least take time and answer the questions professionally, without marketing crap.

Best, M

[thracozaag]

[m19834]

How do you get those guys on the post ?  I was wanting to do that just today (not the popcorn guy but another).

                                       
                   
                                      


hmmmm....

[musicrebel4u]

Well, I am a Ph.D professional with +30+ years very strict training (and still in training, BTW), including Moscow Conservatory (you have already mentioned whom this institution gave to the music world, so for sake of space saving I will ommit that part). I taught in every level of musical institutions in a few different countries, from music school, colledge, up to University, without mentioning my private teaching experience. My former students have entered into such famous and prestigious schools as Gnessin Institute in Moscow, Swelink Academy in Amsterdam, University of Tel-Aviv, ASU, among others. Besides, being a concert pianist myself, somehow I believe I know little bit about this instrument.
As you can see I also have some credentials and not exactly a non-serious novice, or amateurish wannabe.

I looked at the links about your system you provided very carefully, looked at your website, took time to listen to your students, asked quite a few questions about all that and was very specific in my criticism and reservations. Unfortunately, it did not seem you had time for answering my questions, or just provided some typical salesman BS, I am (as you could imagine) not interested in. Moreover, it seems you are very selective and prefer to touch facts and subjects, which only suit your own agenda, so may be it is not about me, but about you... 

So if you call yourself professional, please at least take time and answer the questions professionally, without marketing crap.

Best, M

Marik, you have advantage over many members of this forum: you read Russian.
I am giving you links
to Russian website (people from Ufa made it for others volunterely)
https://www.ugatu.ac.ru/~trushin/SM/
I gave you link to my book, which was brilliantly edited by one well known Russian publicist (again volunterely) Nik Kurdyumov:
https://www.kurdyumov.ru/esse/music/music00.php

Here is Russian speaking community dedicated to Soft Mozart. They are now publishing videos from last seminars:
https://community.livejournal.com/doremifa_use/profile

If you have any more questions, please call or write to me.

If you need my help, I will always here for you.

All the answers to your questions on display. If you have Ph D, you ought to learn how to learn 

[m]

Marik, you have advantage over many members of this forum: you read Russian.
I am giving you links
to Russian website (people from Ufa made it for others volunterely)
https://www.ugatu.ac.ru/~trushin/SM/
I gave you link to my book, which was brilliantly edited by one well known Russian publicist (again volunterely) Nik Kurdyumov:
https://www.kurdyumov.ru/esse/music/music00.php

Here is Russian speaking community dedicated to Soft Mozart. They are now publishing videos from last seminars:
https://community.livejournal.com/doremifa_use/profile

If you have any more questions, please call or write to me.

If you need my help, I will always here for you.

All the answers to your questions on display. If you have Ph D, you ought to learn how to learn 

As I told, I might be interested for very specific goals. Sure, I will look into all your information, even though I did not feel much help from your side from the beginning.

In any case, you mentioned you donate your system for schools for free. What about non-profit organizations, which goals I described earlier? Most likely it will be for workshops. Of course, there is no question, you will get the full credit and our endorsement.

Needless to say, since I am also in recording business, I am very concious about copyright infridgements, and will personally try to do my best against any leaking and unauthorized copies.

Best, M

[musicrebel4u]

As I told, I might be interested for very specific goals. Sure, I will look into all your information, even though I did not feel much help from your side from the beginning.

In any case, you mentioned you donate your system for schools for free. What about non-profit organizations, which goals I described earlier? Most likely it will be for workshops. Of course, there is no question, you will get the full credit and our endorsement.

Needless to say, since I am also in recording business, I am very concious about copyright infridgements, and will personally try to do my best against any leaking and unauthorized copies.

Best, M

Marik,

You may count on me 100%.
You may call, write or invite me and I will come and help your organization. I am not rich, but I believe in one thing: as much you give – as more you get. It works for me entire life.

Also if any piano teacher would decide to learn the system, they are welcome to visit me in Houston. I would meet you at airport, provide room and share everything that I had discovered with no charge.

Any teacher after proper test results could be certified to start the curriculum and to get more students and better business in their studios.

Some educators could receive certificate to train other teachers.

We are planning to offer the system to ALL state schools free of charge. I am preparing press release about it and would appreciate any advice or help from you.

[jlh]

https://www.kxan.com/Global/story.asp?S=2538155&nav=3dg9StYX Click inside the box OUT ON THE PORCH

HAHA

Bach's Minuet in G minor is one of the most advanced piano pieces? 

I HAD NO IDEA!  lol

[musicrebel4u]

HAHA

Bach's Minuet in G minor is one of the most advanced piano pieces? 

I HAD NO IDEA!  lol

Well, this is how they present any topics about music education. They want circus, they are thirsty for prodigies. Idea that anybody can learn just doesn't fit... yet. How sad, isn't it?

[jlh]

Well, this is how they present any topics about music education. They want circus, they are thirsty for prodigies. Idea that anybody can learn just doesn't fit... yet. How sad, isn't it?

Indeed...

This is why I don't watch TV news.

[m]

Marik,

You may count on me 100%.
You may call, write or invite me and I will come and help your organization. I am not rich, but I believe in one thing: as much you give – as more you get. It works for me entire life.

Also if any piano teacher would decide to learn the system, they are welcome to visit me in Houston. I would meet you at airport, provide room and share everything that I had discovered with no charge.

Any teacher after proper test results could be certified to start the curriculum and to get more students and better business in their studios.

Some educators could receive certificate to train other teachers.

We are planning to offer the system to ALL state schools free of charge. I am preparing press release about it and would appreciate any advice or help from you.

Thank you. Next season I have to play somewhere in Texas, so if it is within somewhat managable driving distance....
I don't know what to advise, as you seem to be much better in marketing. As long as you have clearly defined curriculum (which I am sure you have no shortage), have clear idea how technically and financially organize piano labs (both keyboards, and computers) and their maintanence, and have all financial tables, as well as clear idea how to organize teachers certification and associated financial expences, etc.etc.etc., it seems you will be fine.

P.S. BTW, since you posted lots of links, here is a link to one of my performances, which BTW, happened to be in Kemerovo, last October:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,30259.0.html

Of course, you are free to bash me the way you want  

[musicrebel4u]

Thank you. Next season I have to play somewhere in Texas, so if it is within somewhat managable driving distance....
I don't know what to advise, as you seem to be much better in marketing. As long as you have clearly defined curriculum (which I am sure you have no shortage), have clear idea how technically and financially organize piano labs (both keyboards, and computers) and their maintanence, and have all financial tables, as well as clear idea how to organize teachers certification and associated financial expences, etc.etc.etc., it seems you will be fine.

P.S. BTW, since you posted lots of links, here is a link to one of my performances, which BTW, happened to be in Kemerovo, last October:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,30259.0.html

Of course, you are free to bash me the way you want  

I LOVE your performance. Thank you! Sometimes (at final part) your piano sounds like an orchestra.

[pianowolfi]

*  Sound should be the leading factor in both visual recognition of music as well as motional recognition in music.

*  Children and people need to learn from the very beginning how to *listen*, not how to *see* -- and this should be the starting point of their cognitive learning, thank you very much.

*  Children being willing to pay attention to a computer screen more than a person is not progressive for the race and it is not a problem of music, it is a problem of society.

*  Children/Students must be taught by example how a HUMAN relates to the instrument, whether they are taught subliminally by watching their teacher play, or consciously by having their teacher show them exactly what to do.

*  How many students raised on this software, having heard a computer play their music, truly learn how to appreciate music in the ways that you preach all people should do ?

*  How many more people are sitting in concert halls, supporting professional musicians because they have learned how to play the piano using softmozart ?

*  Children/people need to learn to *hear* how a human being phrases a passage, and that is what learning how to "speak" the language of music IS.

*  If my student is constantly staring at some screen, I can't help him in any of those ways above and the influence of the sound in his/her ears is similar to having a robot hug your child for you.

Very good points here, very clearly described!

[thierry13]

There is an easy way to sum everything up. Your students are NOT impressive, they do NOT play well, they do NOT learn fast, and EVERY decent teacher can do as much or better. Who cares about your "experience" or your "degree" in teaching? The only thing you're proving with your videos is that there is nothing extraordinary in your system. The goal of piano education is for your students to play well first of all, then to be able to learn by themselves after (wich includes good reading). The fact is that reading music is not all that hard! The only goal of your system is to actually teach how to read music (you obviously did not teach any of your students how to actually play the piano), wich is not an hard task at all, for NORMAL kids (exclude prodigies). If you have difficulty teaching a kid how to read music, there are two possibilities : your student has serious disabilities, or you are a bad teacher. You are going to tell me that I do not quite GET it, but I do not see what there is to get : your students are NOT learning faster than any other normal kid with a normal teacher who teaches with a normal system!

Stop trying to convince anybody of the opposite, you have allready given the PROOF with your videos!

[musicrebel4u]

There is an easy way to sum everything up. Your students are NOT impressive, they do NOT play well, they do NOT learn fast, and EVERY decent teacher can do as much or better. Who cares about your "experience" or your "degree" in teaching? The only thing you're proving with your videos is that there is nothing extraordinary in your system. The goal of piano education is for your students to play well first of all, then to be able to learn by themselves after (wich includes good reading). The fact is that reading music is not all that hard! The only goal of your system is to actually teach how to read music (you obviously did not teach any of your students how to actually play the piano), wich is not an hard task at all, for NORMAL kids (exclude prodigies). If you have difficulty teaching a kid how to read music, there are two possibilities : your student has serious disabilities, or you are a bad teacher. You are going to tell me that I do not quite GET it, but I do not see what there is to get : your students are NOT learning faster than any other normal kid with a normal teacher who teaches with a normal system!

Stop trying to convince anybody of the opposite, you have allready given the PROOF with your videos!

You have your chance to prove what you had written
Here a student who never played piano and learned Walts of Shostakovich in 3 weeks

Send me your example
Otherwise your words worth nothing

[thierry13]

That's like the first of your videos I saw. It's ridiculous. YEARS to learn that ? And you call that a SONG? It is normal to be able to play easy pieces in such a sloppy way after 3 weeks of lessons. Plus, she's 16, so that's not the same as a children at all, but not AT ALL. I don't care what you think my words are worth, you're trying to impress everybody here, and obviously NOBODY is impressed by ANY of your students. I simply sumed it up in a simple way  ->Stop thinking you're doing great, you're not, any teacher can get similar or better results with a normal system.<-

Btw, look at my awesome new product, it's great, in 3 weeks I can make any person look absolutely beautiful 

www.uglypeople.com

SEE, PROOF!

(I hope you get my point)

[musicrebel4u]

That's like the first of your videos I saw. It's ridiculous. YEARS to learn that ? And you call that a SONG? It is normal to be able to play easy pieces in such a sloppy way after 3 weeks of lessons. Plus, she's 16, so that's not the same as a children at all, but not AT ALL. I don't care what you think my words are worth, you're trying to impress everybody here, and obviously NOBODY is impressed by ANY of your students. I simply sumed it up in a simple way  ->Stop thinking you're doing great, you're not, any teacher can get similar or better results with a normal system.<-

Btw, look at my awesome new product, it's great, in 3 weeks I can make any person look absolutely beautiful 

www.uglypeople.com

SEE, PROOF!

(I hope you get my point)

This Waltz is the piece for 6th grade of Russian music schools and if you are pofesional, you should know that
The 16 years old girl never had any piano lessons and learned to read, play and memorize it in 3 weeks
All what I am writing - I am writing not for you, because obviousely you are not going to agree with me even if I would say that 'today sun is shining in Texas'
But I know that I read by other educators and thank you for your arguing - it just help me to prove my point

[musicrebel4u]

That's like the first of your videos I saw. It's ridiculous. YEARS to learn that ? And you call that a SONG? It is normal to be able to play easy pieces in such a sloppy way after 3 weeks of lessons. Plus, she's 16, so that's not the same as a children at all, but not AT ALL. I don't care what you think my words are worth, you're trying to impress everybody here, and obviously NOBODY is impressed by ANY of your students. I simply sumed it up in a simple way  ->Stop thinking you're doing great, you're not, any teacher can get similar or better results with a normal system.<-

Btw, look at my awesome new product, it's great, in 3 weeks I can make any person look absolutely beautiful 

www.uglypeople.com

SEE, PROOF!

(I hope you get my point)

It was nice to see your portets!
Now my turn!

[thierry13]

It was nice to see your portets!
Now my turn!

Haha you could, and should, post that on the site I gave you 

[danny elfboy]

Guys why you must make all of this so complicated.
A good theory can be recognized because it turns the seemingly complex into concrete simple. The traditional education system is complete bankrupt which almost no focus on music. But it's pretty easy in my opinionto guess a system to improve it.

It seems most reformers are looking for a way to make students enjoy music more so they practice more and are more motivated. Well music should be their motivation. But this simple concept is neglected in traditional lessons. In order for music to be a motivation a student should have a pretty big repertory in a very short amount of time.

I have noticed that those piano students who seem to have little interest for piano in the first place are those who took months to learn two pieces. On the other hand those students who can already play dozens of pieces, never want to leave the piano and as soon as they walk close to a piano they have to sit down and play. And by playing those pieces over and over in a creative and enjoying way they're indeed practicing, practicing lot more than anyone else.

Piano lessons is one of the only activities where the concrete music sensitivity and interest of a person are ignored instead of nurtured, in other words one of the only activities where instead of getting immersed in the main essence of what you're supposed to be there for (music) as soon as possible, you get long unproductive delays dealing with vacuum useless theoretical technical stuff for a long enough time to kill any relationship with music.

The basic relationships (rhythm, flow, creativity, phrasing) with music are destroyed instead of being put into action in order to spend most of the time learning like retarded hideous pieces of music, technical exercises and "strenghtening the fingers". Pure masturbation in the very sense of the word, only that masturbation is more enjoyable. Nothing in the robotic like technical masturbation of piano lessons seems to have to do with music and it's no wonder that even those external to piano lessons have an hard time associating piano lessons with real music.

Compare this to activities like soccer training, where you immediately form a relationship with the ball, where you immediately test your skill by competing in a match, where practicing means playing the game. Compare this to activities like swimming training, where you immediately form a relationship with water, where you immediately start to move on the water, where practicing means swimming.



* Build a solid foundation as soon as possible explaining the whys to the students.

* Always discuss about music, rhythm, the joy of listening to a beautiful piece; always make the piano lesson a "creature of music" and the place in which piano lessons are held a place which immediately remind people of "music".

* When dealing with technique (scales, arpeggios, chords ...) always point out to music elements (eveness, rhythm, flow, phrasing) as the main focus and not to finger masturbation as the main one.

* Move as quickly as possible to interesting yet simple pieces so that in a very very short of time the student has already a pretty nice musical baggage and can fulfill his/her need to make music whenever he/she wants.

* The pieces should be chosen carefully and should be strongly liked by the students. They should be immediately catchy and having recognizable flicks. It's absurd to assign a piece which is rather monotonous unless very polished and perfectly played. It's nothing but an useless frustration. Pieces should be chosen so even in the first stages of learning them they sound interesting and attract. In other words they should have a distinctive rhythmic and phrasing appeal. You often hear of students whose practicing is based on hundreds of technical unmusical junk and 1 "Diabelli Gavotte". But you can't really pretend to nurture music skills through a program of 90% disgusting nonsense and 10% of real music BUT which needs to be played perfectly and very polished before it begins to sound good. An example of a easy piece with an immediate rhythmic and phrasing appeal is The Wild Horseman by Schumann. Even practicing this piece at a slow tempo is stimulating.

It's the same concept of losing weight. You can't expect people to lose weight eating nothing but undressed unsalted lettuce, unsalted unseasoned wheat bran with tomatoes and a stick of celery. They will just get frustrated and will go into a binge and will learn nothing about proper nutrition. You must find an healthy balance between palatability, satiety and nutritional education.

* Do everything you can so that piano lessons are associated with "making beautiful music" not with "being at the army with a teacher who lacks any sort of musical sensitivity"

* "it's time for piano lesson" should be understood as "wow, it's finally time to enter in the realm of music, relate with people who love music as much as I do and to make beautiful music at the instrument!"

* Make them CD with the pieces they are going to practice so they can listen to them over and over. We don't play piano because we want to play the piano. We don't sit at the piano and play because we like looking at keys going up and down. We play because we want to produce music. So playing starts with listening. The desire to play exists because we have heard beautiful music and thought about making such music on the piano. No exciting emotion is triggered when a student is handed a sheet and is told to practice that. But it's a different story if the student is given a CD or mp3 and for week listens to a beautiful piece and eventually he is told that the piece he has listened and got in love with is the piece he will practice the next week.

* Spend a good portion of the lesson to just play the piano for your pupils. It doesn't matter whether you play the pieces you assign, or pieces you'll never assign or your own stuff; but you must maintain the whole experience musical ... the student must know there's a light at the end of the tunnel and what they're doing is still profoundly related with music, with creating beautiful and moving sounds.

* Rather than pointing out the differences between pop music and classical music the similarities should be emphasized. The desire to listen to Beethoven shouldn't come from the desire to feel superior, for a status quo reason or out of habit ... but it should come from the very identical reason that stimulate us to listen and enjoy whatever piece of music: from a rock classic to a soundtrack epic. It's out attraction for patterns, for tension and resolution, for contrasts that drive us into music ... and these characteristics belong to all beautiful music whatever baroque or country.

Of couse when piano lessons becomes to deal with music, when the very thought of piano lesson reminds you of music (and I assure for most people piano lessons reminds everything but music) when the piano lessons dimension becomes the dimension where the music maker feel fulfilled and at home; it becomes unavoidable to skim students heavily.

There's no place in such dimension for children whose parents are living vicariously through them forcing them to do something they're not interested in and for whom they recognize a lack of passion and sensitivity and no place for students who think of piano as a mere show off hobby. The fact that piano lessons have attracted a lot of these individuals proves my point that piano lessons appear as having nothing to do with music.

[keypeg]

I think that some of this has to be balanced out with where we actually are.  What I agree with 100% is that it should not be meaningless.   One of the first things you mention is to give a student the tools for playing properly, and also having the student understand how that works.  In other words, why we are doing what we are doing.  The fact that there is a purpose to it.

I am fortunate not to have been handicapped by the dead teaching that is so often described.  I had not teaching whatsoever so I remained uninhibited, spontaneous, creative.  I had no idea that anything was supposed to be hard.  Nothing scared me.  I had no idea, above all, that reading was supposed to be difficult.  I got at the notes somehow.

For me getting at the tools is essential.  I have to know how to use my body, effective ways of posture.  I need the language of music: the use of timing (how long do you hold a note, and how do you transition to the next), dynamics, pitch when it's not the piano.

I realize that many people come from a place where they were taught to play mechanically following the dynamics on the page, the values of the notes, and it seems without the ability to even audiate - pre-hear what you are playing before you play it: something I have taken for granted.  If you are coming from that technico-mechanical scene, then listening to CD's or your teacher play, in order to hear the music as music, would be a better alternative.

However, I come from a different place which I dare to think is preferable.  For me the written music from the very start has a musical message to it.  As I delve into it by reading the written motes, the message begins to reveal itself to me.  Soon it translates itself in technical terms as well - but they are "not technical".  Pauses, louds, softs, lingerings, rhythms - these are all the things that I use in order to get at the musical message.  And for that *** I need access to technique ****.  This is what I need from a teacher.

As well, when I begin to learn about genres, history, the way people thought in a certain century -- this becomes part of the process of how the music reveals itself from inside.  Recently I have begun educating myself in that respect.  I have a first overview and I'm up to the 1580's, to be precise - just edging out of the Renaissance.  But it is ALIVE.  I have read about the courtier who achieved his athletic fitness through dance, but always restrained and understated - and then I watched such a dance - and then I heard the rhythms and the philosophy in the music - and then I heard various performances of that genre of music.  Often the dance, the courtier, the philosophy, the rhythms, were missing in those solo performances.

Learning to play a piece of music for me is something that develops from the inside of the music.  It contains the vision I have described.  It contains devices of louds, softs, manipulation of time, which are based on that vision and have meaning.  It also contains such things as the restrained fitness and strong rhythm of the courtier's dance.

If I learn to play by listening to another, then I am skimming the surface and missing the substance.  If my model has proceded in similar fashion, then his playing does not have substance either - it is all superficial impression.  On the other hand, if I get the tools and the knowledge, and do myself dig into the music, then my music will develop musically that way.  What I have discovered which I like to do is to listen to a performances AFTER having worked through it on my own.  At that point the performance, provided that it has substance, holds meaning.  There's an "aha, so that's what he does to bring this out."

The important thing you bring out, Danny, is that it must be meaningful and we must be able to be engaged.

I realize that I am writing as an adult.  However, I remember exploring music from the inside at a very early age.  Since I was not subject to bad teaching I never lost it.

[ramseytheii]

Wow, how have I missed this thread until now?  This is great!

Walter Ramsey