Students " Speeding" how to stop it

[dora96]

I am so frustrated lately with my students. Most of them, they play and practice the piano too fast. Some of them speed like hell. I just don't know why can't they count. Every week, before they start, I will ask them please relax and compose yourself. There is no need to rush.

When they practice the easy bit is playing too fast, and when they come to difficult section they are slowing right down. Even the scale, just spiral out of control. Keep asking them slow down, otherwise I will issue you a speeding ticket.

I have use Metronome with them, they just don't feel the beat. Start off is ok, but when the music go on, they go faster and faster. It is really time consuming, when they play fast and out of control and then they get more agitated and frustrated. I feel tensed, they feel they are going to explode. I ask them open your mouth and count together. It is wonderful when we count together, however, they get home, they won't stick to it. Why rhythm becomes really hard to master.   

[tsagari]

Hi,
I hope it's ok to post here. I am an adult student - 41 on the 25th - I am playing for almost four years now. I can tell you from experience that it took me three years to understand the importance of not speeding both during my practice at home and during my session with the teacher who has the same problem with you. It is difficult for every one who is new to piano play to underatand how important this is because we all have in mind the end result of the piece and we want to reach it as soon as possible. May be you have to say to the student in every single lesson about this or use analogies as my teacher says that when  you walk along the city slowly again and again and you know every single street and corner then you can run around the city eyes closed, the same is true for piano play. The student needs proof of why he/she should not speed. You can record them  so they can listen that is not nice when you change the tempo. Or you can do it for them record or play a piece slowely at a stady tempo and the same piece their way (farst where easy slow where difficult).

[ramseytheii]

This is very difficult, but guaranteed to control tempo.  When you practice the metronome with your students, force them to play with the metronome on the off-beats.  Try this first with a very, very easy piece.  Then try it with more difficult pieces, until they get used to it.  I promise you, that it will interest your students to play in time (because playing with metronome on the off-beats is much more fun than on the down-beats), and they will really struggle to understand the rhythm, since it challenges their brain much more than clicks on the down-beats.

If they don't like their brain to be challenged, get rid of them!


Walter Ramsey

[keyofc]

Those were great posts - I will try the metronome idea. It sounds fun and helpful - I was just starting to post something simiarly related when I say this thread.

And to the adult student- how true.
Love the knowing the city idea.

I agree that students need proof - Their rhtymn may be perfect when it comes to the melody - and the right hand doesn't want to wait for the left hand to get it down.

I also have students play just the left hand with the metronome - and then they can see what I'm talking about.

[ptmidwest]

Perhaps you could GIVE them something that is "supposed" to be fast.  A little pattern that they can repeat many, many times without stopping, and you encourage them, "now go a little faster." Egg them on!   It could be just a broken triad (C-E-G), or just four fingers playing four keys up/down by step, or a cross-hand arpeggio.   At first they will go faster than their technique, but it's great because now they will hear the unevenness and also feel it in their fingers, and you say of course they must iron out the unevenness.  Oh!  And also keep rounded fingers, too!  So many opportunities here!  It's now fun to "try it again", they learn to KEEP trying!  You are no longer the teacher who eternally makes them go sloooower. 

[faulty_damper]

I am so frustrated lately with my students. Most of them, they play and practice the piano too fast. Some of them speed like hell. I just don't know why can't they count. Every week, before they start, I will ask them please relax and compose yourself. There is no need to rush.

How old are these students?  The answer is very important because if they are young this is a normal learning technique.  Here's an analogy that will highlight this point.

Do babies learn to walk before they run?  They walk, of course.  WRONG!  They DO NOT WALK BEFORE THEY LEARN TO RUN.  They learn to run before they walk.  What seems like walking when they uncontrollably put one leg in front of the other is not walking.  Walking requires greater control than running, similar to riding a bicycle slowly.  Faster is easier.  Only when they've developed the coordination of fine motor skills will be be able to walk.

Their fast playing is in fact easier to do.  They haven't developed the necessary control to play slowly.  You are asking them to walk when they haven't yet learned to run. 

When they practice the easy bit is playing too fast, and when they come to difficult section they are slowing right down. Even the scale, just spiral out of control. Keep asking them slow down, otherwise I will issue you a speeding ticket.

They slow down because it is like uncontrollably putting one foot in front of the other.  It's something new that has to develop basic coordination first.  Then they run.  And finally walk.

I have use Metronome with them, they just don't feel the beat. Start off is ok, but when the music go on, they go faster and faster. It is really time consuming, when they play fast and out of control and then they get more agitated and frustrated. I feel tensed, they feel they are going to explode. I ask them open your mouth and count together. It is wonderful when we count together, however, they get home, they won't stick to it.

They don't listen because they can't.  It's like walking, talking, and juggling at the same time and then on top of that have to follow a set of commands.  The mind is completely preoccupied doing these other tasks.  Until the walking, talking, and juggling has been mastered, the mind does not have the extra processing capacity to listen to the ticking of the metronome.

Why rhythm becomes really hard to master.   

Rhythm is one of the easiest things to master!  The reason why it's so difficult to learn is because students are often asked to walk, talk, juggle, and then on top of that do rhythm.  Then students are asked to play piano while doing rhythm! 

[jordan christopher]

hahaha........ that's realy true!!!!!!!! in fact my concert pianist mentor told me to slow down because if i play the piece too fast or above tempo is that its like that im destroying the piece...
I learned my lessons!!!!!!
There is beauty in following the tempo..........
If you are not following the tempo THEN YOU ARE DESTROYING THE PIECE!!!!!!!! for corn's sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Actually the problem is that some of the piano students doesnt have metronomes....
second is that students like to play fast so that some people will applaud them or say "wOw  you play the piece so fast, i think you are already master or high level" which is very wrong......!!!!!!!!!
hahahahahah............

[momopi]

Hello. I'm an adult piano learner. My level is early intermediate. I didn't realize the importance of slowing down until I read it somewhere on the net. (I searched piano practice tips on Google). Maybe getting it to writing may work better. (At least, when i read that tip, there were no emotions whatsoever, just a plain piano-playing tip). Sometimes we don't listen to the teacher because we are too busy inside our heads while sitted in front of the piano. Just looking at some challenging-looking scores can create a lot of chaos in our heads as we try to figure it out!

Or maybe you can devote one or two lessons showing him/her how to practice. I'm sure it wouldn't be a waste of time.

You can also tell him this Rachmaninoff anecdote:

He slowly learned the pieces he played, detail by detail. Abram Chasins told about visiting Rachmaninoff one day and stopping outside. Rachmaninoff "was practicing Chopin's Étude in thirds but at such a snail's pace that it took me a while to recognize it because so much time elapsed between each finger stroke and the next. Fascinated, I clocked this remarkable exhibition: 20 seconds per bar was his pace for almost an hour while I waited riveted to the spot, quite unable to ring the bell."[53] Paradoxically, Rachmaninoff often sounded like he was improvising, though he actually was not. While his interpretations were comprised of mosaics of tiny details, when those mosaics came together in performance, they might, according to the tempo of the piece being played, fly past at great speed, giving the impression of instant thought.

[gyzzzmo]

I think that the problem in general is that students divide a piece in 'technical difficulty parts' instead of melody phrases. If a part gets difficult, they often repeat the difficult part, and dont realise that that part is actually related to parts surrounding that difficult part, both dynamically and tempo.

-The technical approach would be the use of a metronome probably, at least its the easiest.
-The best approach however is learning the student to think 'with the melody'. You could learn your student this by plainly let him play the melody surrounding that 'wrong speed part' and the part itself. This way you'll let the student think in terms of melody- and big lines.

However, ofcourse the drawback of this is that not all students are serious enough to do the second (but better) approach. Alot of them dont give a crap about music, they just want to be able to play some famous tune or they have to play because their parents want them to

So choosing the first or second approach mainly depends of the 'seriousness' of that student: Does he really want to play nicely? Then you could use the second one and explain him why. Is it a dummy and doesnt he care much? Grab that metronome

good luck teaching,

Gyzzzmo

[a-sharp]

Depending on their age... issue speeding tickets.

(only partly joking)

One of my teachers used to be really good at finding elements in their technique that were causing certain sections to be too fast - she would say to them "I'm trying to throw in some speed bumps" ... with some students, she'd say she was taking them away - but, often there is something you can correct technique-wise to help them slow down, or speed up... Hard to say which exactly without watching the individual.

OTOH - is it a matter of speed, or a matter of *control* at that speed? if there is no control issue (usually is), why not let them play it faster... try to decide together which tempo works or not, and why...

Just a couple of thoughts - not meant to really address or fix your issue!

...As for the babies & walking vs. running thing - I'd have to say - I don't know about other people's kids, but mine learned how to walk first. Actually - he learned how to 'shuffle' or 'cruise' first, then how to fall, then how to run. He definately did not run (without falling after the first step) before he learned how to walk. That is only one mom's personal experience. don't take it as law.

[dora96]

Most of students having the speeding problem from 8 to 16 years of age. boys are worst than girl.  Last month, one of my students ( 16 years old ) wanted to play contemporary music gospel song " Kingdom" to his church anniversary . We sat down and learned to note, learning the melodies first, and tempo, and then the left accompaniment. He is quite good student, and will do what I tell him. He is one of those guys like rushing sometimes, not to follow the tempo rhythm. After 3 weeks, everything is perfect. He and me are happy.

When the time came, he started playing, it was fine, but second around to verse. He started speeding, the choir kept looking at him, and he was trying to keep up with him. The poor guy was almost in tear. Afterward, I asked him what happened, he said I was doing it so well, he couldn't believe, and getting really nervous he might lose it. Once he started thinking about, that's why he has gone wrong.

I don't know whether or not it is true that they feel it is wrong to play absolutely perfect. Don't get me wrong -  they want to play it flawless but that makes them nervous to get through a piece of music. I think speeding it is sign of nervousness and tension in the body. Honestly, I don't really blame them sometimes, just listening to all the recording from famous pianist Glen Gould, Ashkenazy with Chopin, I know they can do with control, but for students are trying to learn it , when they listen to the record, they think that that's the way they should play. I forbid them listening the recording before they learn the piece. But you can't help it the recording is there and everywhere even in the radio.  Most of the problem, they are playing by ear not by rhythm in the book.

One of my students said, they can relax and play it right on their own, as soon as someone is listening, they just want to speed. They even hate it when people asking them to play something, but you know they don't have the patient to listen or don't know what the heck that they are playing. They just want to speed. I think the speeding it is more physiological thing.   The question how to overcome it

[ptmidwest]

These are kids.  Maybe they have to be aware of their speeding up --as it is happening-- before they can control the tempo. 

That's why  it helps to give them something, maybe a one-page little piece that is not challenging for them (until they must play it ripsnorting fast and very well), that they are free to speed.  They are free to explore different tempi, even changing tempi, not-ideal technique or sound, and then, Dora, maybe they will better "hear" your instructions about slow practice. 

Besides, it's fun. 

[pianisten1989]

Maybe they not know where the beats are. Ask them to play an accent on every beat, just to make sure they know where it is, then ask them to always play with the metronome, and then you tell them which tempi.

[danny elfboy]

How old are these students?  The answer is very important because if they are young this is a normal learning technique.  Here's an analogy that will highlight this point.

Do babies learn to walk before they run?  They walk, of course.  WRONG!  They DO NOT WALK BEFORE THEY LEARN TO RUN.  They learn to run before they walk.  What seems like walking when they uncontrollably put one leg in front of the other is not walking.  Walking requires greater control than running, similar to riding a bicycle slowly.  Faster is easier.  Only when they've developed the coordination of fine motor skills will be be able to walk.

Their fast playing is in fact easier to do.  They haven't developed the necessary control to play slowly.  You are asking them to walk when they haven't yet learned to run.

I think this doesn't apply here though.
The students are old (8 to 16) and also the fact that they can start slowly but speed up as they move through the piece or speed up in the easy parts and slow down in the hard parts suggests a more common problem with piano playing. Starting slowly and speeding up (including in solfeggio) is a problem common to all piano students from 5 year old to 105 year old.

The possible solution in my opinion are:

1) never get frustrated or angry. Tell them "I will check next lesson whether you've speeded up" and when the lessons comes and they speed up just say "can you see you've practiced speeding up, remember not to speed up, I will check next lessons whether you've speeded up". With time this gentle reminder does work. It takes time for whatever thin to become an habit and for whatever concept planted in the mind to blossom.

2) use lesson time to pretend it's practicing time at home, tell the student to practice as if you were not there so you can see how he or she practices and you can immediately point out the practicing mistakes

3) create separate exercises and practicing for rhythm alone. Solfege, percussions, hand clapping, woods hitting ... there are a lot of ways to instill rhythm and maintenance of rhythm in extra-pianistic ways. The most efficient are those were rhythm is created with the body and must be maintained with body control.

4) Make piano learning a creative experience of awareness rather than vacuum exercises and rule to arbitrarily obey. They are making music and the whole process of piano learning should be the most musical possible. Austere concepts of technical perfection and dry technicism should be abandoned in favour of musical sensitivity, phrasing, rhythm, creativity, interpretation, artistic consistency. Spend time playing beauiful music for your students and tell them to close their eyes and follow the rhythm. Buy them percussive instrument so they can duet with you. Talk about the rhythmic structure and the artistic beauty of each piece you're going to make them practice and listen with them the music they like (be it rap or r'n'b) and discover the underlying consistent rhythm together.

[danny elfboy]

I have something to add:
Playing with the metronome is the worst way to develop rhythmic control and is in fact the best way to disrupt it. The metronome has not been invented with the purpose to use it while playing the piece. It has been invented in order to know the speed by getting used to the beat provided by the metronome before practicing or playing the piece when the metronome is to be shut down.

Not only using the metronome while practicing or playing is like trying to learn how to swim properly using a safebelt but the rhythm provided by the metronome can't be followed most of the time. Trying to play a Schubert 90. n.3 with the metronome is ridicolous since the piece doesn't tolerate per se a steady rhythm and is full of accelerrando and rallentando. Insisting on playing it wrongly for the whole time required to learn it is creating an habit of playing the piece in the wrong way and never having it ready for the performance.

Even Bach, some suggest, isn't supposed to be so metronomic.
Most people who are trained to play and practice with the metronome (rather than using the metronome as a pre-practice guide) never develop a sense of rhythm, become addicted to the use of the metronome so that they have no skill in keeping a rhythm and recognizing it when the metronome beat is not there and usually develop bad habits like rushing or slowing down. It's the ear in itself which resists the metronomic pulse in favour of a more musical playing.

[aewanko]

I have something to add:
Playing with the metronome is the worst way to develop rhythmic control and is in fact the best way to disrupt it. The metronome has not been invented with the purpose to use it while playing the piece. It has been invented in order to know the speed by getting used to the beat provided the metronome before practicing or playing the piece when the metronome is to be shut down.

Not only using the metronome while practicing or playing is like trying to learn how to swim properly using a safebelt but the rhythm provided by the metronome can't be followed most of the time. Trying to play a Schubert 90. n.3 with the metronome is ridicolous since the piece doesn't tolerate per se a steady rhythm and is full of accelerrando and rallentando. Insisting on playing it wrongly for the whole time required to learn it is creating an habit of playing the piece in the wrong way and never having it read for the performance.

Even Bach, some suggests, isn't supposed to be so metronomic.
Most people who are trained to play and practice with the metronome (rather than using the metronome as a pre-practice guide) never develop a sense of rhythm, become addicted to the use of the metronome so that they have no skill in keeping a rhythm and recognizing it when the metronome beat is not there and usually develop bad habits like rushing or slowing down. It's the ear in itself which resist the metronomic pulse in favour of a more musical playing.

Agreed.

[lostinidlewonder]

Burn the metronome. This is not a good tool to teach people how to play entire pieces in time although it has been used for this many times. As danny mentions the metronome this is a tool to determine the tempo at which we are playing a piece we can already control. We listen to the first few clicks of it to give us our bearings of tempo for the first bar, then turn it off. I do not like to use it to play pieces because I don't believe all pieces can exist on the artificial perfect tempo of a metronome. Often pieces naturally broaden out (eg: cadences) which metronomes do not pay musical respect to. Certainly it is impossible to use a metronome in pieces that utilize rubato.

A student will speed through passages if they do not understand how the beat of the music they play is created. All students of music can clap beats, all know that it has a very constant effect throughout a piece which doesn't use tempo altering effects. They should have a good understanding of which notes in the bar fall on the strong beats and be able to make the connection between each individual beat. They do not necessarily have to count out loud, but have to be able to notice how to move from beat to beat.

If a piece is say 4/4 time it is important to realize which beat count is most useful for the student to use to slow down. Perhaps it is 4 beats per bar, and identify exactly which notes fall on these beats. If the bar has a lot of fast notes perhaps we have to count 8 quaver beats per bar. Perhaps it is a group of notes which each fall every 2 beats per bar so it might be useful to divide the beats every minum.  Whatever we choose has to help the student understand the beat being created by what they play, and they must know exactly which notes they play cause these beats.

Sometimes it has nothing to do with counting beats but rather a technical aspect causes their speeding up. Unbalanced hands, lack of controlling groups of notes at a time, rushing to get to a new place, inefficient movements etc all can cause rushing of the hands. This is a difficult area to describe in words because everyone does different things, but the teacher must be able to identify if there are any uncomfortable looking movements in the hand which look like the cause for the speed. We have to realize that they are not choosing to play faster, but it is rather the muscular memory they have learned that has associated the movement with an increased speed to produce the overall pattern. We must reassess the muscular memory that the student has learned, straighten out the bend that caused the uncontrolled speeding up, then repair the muscular memory process with repetitions which highlight the increased control related to the beat.

Often if you take the tempo of the piece slower the student can produce a more even beat throughout the piece. I often tell students who tend to play fast to play at a slower tempo during lessons, but at the same time commend them for being able to play fast. They often feel ashamed if you do not recognize that they can do it and then when you ask them to play slowly they feel annoyed and try to play their fast movements but at a slower pace which doesn't work very well Unnecessary fast movements always neglect the sense of the beats in a bar, when we slow down it strips naked any hidden elements which where covered up with speed and the student can notice it as you apply the appropriate beat count in the bar to highlight it. This is however difficult to notice at a normal tempo thus determining the exact slow tempo for the student to observe the beat count suggested from particular notes of the music is important.

[dora96]

Dear Lostindlewonder,

Your post is amazing, even though, I am teaching music in low grade for my students but also learning high level for myself. Tempo is always struggle for me as well when I am playing. I know it when I don't play the music, just listening someone plays, I will know whether they are out time, or incorrect tempo. Sonata for instance, the music is long and there are different theme or subject, different movement. The attention span for some kids are hard to retain. At the moment, I am teaching the children Bach, most students will play the quaver at once speed, come the crochet in the next bar, they will carry on the same speed. I told them they have to be careful and ready to change the rhythm.

They know what I am talking about, but they said they just can't help it sometimes. I said the left hand and right hand just like a partner in dance floor. If the left hand is too fast and the poor right hand will stumble and fall on her noise. They have to be well coordinated. I said they must practice separate hand, do the each part of as individual well and maintain in right order first, otherwise, both hands together will become trouble, they bound to have argument. Your post describe the most detail and trouble spot of nature of human being playing the piano. I think it is the abilities to feel and willing to work on the rhythm. I found that if they can have the word singing along will help them. like wrinkle wrinkle little stars. Happy birthday, silent night etc... They don't have the problem, but come learn Bach, John Thompson grade 3 book, there come problem with timing. and value of the note.

I don't always angry and frustrated with my students, but the most frustration, they always make excuses, their replies are they can't remember, short memories, hard to control, I can only do one thing at the time. However, I am frustrated by they reject trying before doing it, I suggest to them, they must practice hand separate, they must work out the rhythm, 4/4 2/4 3/4 6/8 etc... If they don't know, write it down, 1a.2a,3a,4a...Some will follow, some just can't be bothered. I told them play the music in slow tempo with control and comfort rather than play it fast 10 times with no control. I think it is good subject to discus because I find that speeding can kill the music and create tension in the body, not only mantle but physical incorrect method piano practice, like other members said speeding is kind of showmanship, Sometimes, when I see people playing so fast and so tensed and stiff, surely no good to the body - what is the point to play fast and meaningless.   

[danny elfboy]

Dear Lostindlewonder,

Your post is amazing

  and what about mine?

[dora96]

and what about mine?

I am just about to praise your post Danny. I am in a rush, speeding again

I agree totally,  about using metronome, not always work. most students feel  using metronome extremely annoying and they can't concentrate.  I find that you set the tempo in metronome, they start off ok, but after they play for few lines, they just ignore the tick. I always find that in Beethoven Sonata, or Mozart, Bach, typical classic, very often there is few bar with long rest, silent section, the students will wait for it and count exactly until the tempo is right. They always whine about why I am so fussy about the music score, detail. Some said to me even though you don't play it exactly, who will know anyway, there is so many notes and sound. No one will know exactly anyway. Some students question that can you know the pianist play everything correctly in the records or in the concert hall.

[alpacinator1]

I forbid them listening the recording before they learn the piece.

I don't think this is a good tactic. My teacher recently gave me a book that cam ewith a cd of all the songs being played, and she told me to listen to it and pick a song. I settled on a Beethoven sonata, and listened to it several times before I even attempted it. And I learned the first movement in three weeks (which is faster than I've ever learned a piece before)... I haevn't started on the second or third movements yet

[timothy42b]

Playing with the metronome is the worst way to develop rhythmic control and is in fact the best way to disrupt it.

Ah........................ well there are some potential pitfalls but that probably isn't one of them.

We use the metronome in many ways, not just one.  There are at least three important ones.

One is as you mention to give a starting tempo.  Some pieces, though not all, seem to work at a specific speed, and not make sense faster or slower.  For the person who already has a developed internal pulse as well as developed rhythmic control, this is the main use of the metronome.  You only need a few seconds at the beginning, and perhaps an occasional check later.

For the person who does not yet have a well developed internal pulse, the metronome is one of the best ways of internalizing this.  It does not always work.  Some people seem to be beyond this, others have it naturally somehow.  But for the person who needs work, the metronome is probably the only way to improve.  Probably you need to fade the usage over time.  You don't want to become dependent on external time - but I'm not sure that actually happens. 

For the person who cannot yet play well with an external time source, the metronome is an excellent first step.  It is not ideal - ensemble playing and duets are far better.  But for the people who will struggle with a duet, the metronome can get them half way there.  To play a duet you have to listen to yourself, and to the other person, and match their timing.  Without practice matching any external time standard is difficult.  Since pianists spend so much of their practice time alone, many never learn this and never notice the lack.  Others will though!

Now, developing rhythmic control.  I don't know what that means.  For the short run, a few bars, this is dependent upon counting and subdividing, and the metronome will neither help nor hinder.  But I think you mean something more than that, and I don't want to guess. 

[timothy42b]

Most of them, they play and practice the piano too fast.

While many pieces have an optimum tempo for musical expression, shouldn't a beginner play everything very very slow as well as very very fast?  (being careful not to do this in such a way as to build speed walls, of course) 

[danny elfboy]

Ah........................ well there are some potential pitfalls but that probably isn't one of them.

We use the metronome in many ways, not just one.  There are at least three important ones.

One is as you mention to give a starting tempo.  Some pieces, though not all, seem to work at a specific speed, and not make sense faster or slower.  For the person who already has a developed internal pulse as well as developed rhythmic control, this is the main use of the metronome.  You only need a few seconds at the beginning, and perhaps an occasional check later.

For the person who does not yet have a well developed internal pulse, the metronome is one of the best ways of internalizing this.  It does not always work.  Some people seem to be beyond this, others have it naturally somehow.  But for the person who needs work, the metronome is probably the only way to improve.  Probably you need to fade the usage over time.  You don't want to become dependent on external time - but I'm not sure that actually happens. 

But using the metronome to follow the pulse while you're practicing or playing the piece is a rather modern (and the majority of modern piano education is completely flawed and uneffective) approach. The metronome has not existed for a long time and when it was created no one thought about using it to provide a pulse which actually should be internal to the piano student. The metronome creates just the illusion of being helpful just like sight-singing with the piano notes accompanying the voice creates the illusion of being helpful. Actually the device is doing all the work and is doing absolutely nothing to help the student develop the sense of rhythm, understanding the intrinsic pulse of music and controlling speed. Exactly in the same way that a dish-washer doesn't help you to improve your dish-washing, a blender doesn't help you to improve your cutting, a life-belt doen't help you to improve your swimming technique. They do the work for you. The only difference with the metronome is that it doesn't make the right work for you but screw up the work by forcing you to follow a pulse which is completely unnatural and unheard of in whatever piece of music. The metronome doesn't tick the right time for the piece but an artificial standard metronomic time which is something music in itself doesn't tolerate. When you attend a swimming class to learn how to swim you're never asked to wear a life-belt. Wearing a life-belt might provide the illusion of fast progress while you're actually addicted to a device and once remove you would drown anyway and whatever illusion of progress would disappear. Learning to swim with all the trials and error and no artificial external support might seem like a slow process but it does work and it does empower the learner with something concrete he/she has a real control over. Anecdotally I have to say that those piano teachers who had the patience to inject the concept, the feeling and the sense of pulse and rhythm to their students without any detrimental trick not only had students with a better sense of rhythm than I have but students who after few months had such control of speed and rhythm and they never since made the mistake of losing the rhythm, playing robotically or speeding up/slowing down.

[a-sharp]

Personally - I disagree with the metronome being a general bad thing. It can certainly, if nothing else, assist in making evident the places where one is rushing, lagging, or rhythmically off. I don't agree it should be used constantly, but I believe it to be a very useful tool. Not at all a substitution for internal pulse, but a useful tool nonetheless in the development of it. I have had pieces where playing at a slower tempo - actually - various different tempos, with the metronome has, in a sense, acted like "glue" ... unified a piece, or eliminated or drastically reduced the stops & starts ... this is just with my own practice.

In any case - I believe that you can't make general statements like that for other people. If it works, use it, if not, don't. for me, and for *most* of my students it works, so, I continue to use it and recommend it often. When it stops working, I guess I'll stop using it...

My 2 cents FWIW.

[danny elfboy]

Personally - I disagree with the metronome being a general bad thing. It can certainly, if nothing else, assist in making evident the places where one is rushing, lagging, or rhythmically off.

The only thing I can agree with is using the metronome with scales, arpeggios and technical exercises. Using the metronome with pieces doesn't make much sense because the metronome can't provide the real rhythm of a piece, which is completely malleable compared with the rigidity of an artificial ticking. Using the metronome with a piece forces the player to change the musical nature of the piece making loose all its musicality and flowing. Once a piece is learned in a such a way it is not learned and playing it in that faulty way will remain an habit hard to remove. In other words most of the time will be spent trying to deconstruct what has been constructed through a lot of practicing in the wrong way. And indeed a lot of student who play with the metronome develop the metronomic rhythm and it's hard for them to get rid of this flaw. Wen they perform pieces they're all rhythmically flawed and dry and all the musical propulsion is lost. And while in romantic pieces with lot of rubato this might seem more straightforward, not even baroque tolerates the metronomic precision but the problem is that the difference (or dare I say "error") is more subtle. You can feel the piece is not musical, is not captivating and is bland but you have an hard time understanding why so do the potential audience.

[pianistimo]

maybe what needs to be done with very young children is A LOT of use with the metronome to establish known tempo markings.  to have a general pulse in mind when one sees them.

for instance, one of my teachers used the metaphore of what we do with our legs.  processional, march, walk, jog, run, sprint - etc.  i remember that to this day!  and, coordinating the tempos requires having pieces that are all different tempo markings - so they become used to the idea of holding the tempo unless there is a tempo change or the music requires a change of mood or passion.

teaching passion is probably harder than the strict tempo.  in that sense, i agree with danny elfboy and lostinidlewonder.  their advices are good for older students that know already what the markings mean and they have already established the ability to hold a tempo.

to me, beethoven and schubert are pretty even keel when it comes to having music to keep a steady beat to.  i'd give them some beethoven and a metronome to practice speed control until it is in their heads.  then, take the metronome away and finish the piece without.  adding passion and excitement.  typically, the main problems are when students come across ornamentation and slow down or mess it up rhythmically.

[danny elfboy]

I can't suggest crosslearning enough.
The best way to learn rhythm, pulse and recognize it, sense it and following it in pieces?

Listening to a lot of pure percussive music

Playing freely with percussive instruments

Doing solfege using only hand claps and feet stomps

Filling a jar with rice and using this percussive home-made instrument to create the rhythm for the music we listen or the music someone (including the teacher) play for us.

Listening to pieces of many genres including rock and country to learn how different rhythms build different music

Dancing freely to music, expecially dancing freely (not very ample movements) with the music the teacher plays.

Thinking of a student dancing with a smile while the teacher play beautiful music on the piano with transportation seems to many an odd portrait of piano learning. And this is the problem. Thinking of these effective and really musical approaches as odd and boring, unmusical, austere traditional lessons as normal. The zombie-like lerning environment is abnormal and borderline psychotic, not living music fully dancing, clapping, singing, listening, drumming in a real creative musical dimension.

[dora96]

I think listening recording before learning the piece, it has tremulous help, like a map for the learner. What I don't suggest student to copy the rhythm in the recording. I once learned Beethoven sonata Pathetique,  I wanted to learn it quickly, I listened it everyday and night and hoped that I could master the piece. It was disaster, my rhythm was out of time, and the worst thing happened to me, I couldn't play it slow, and recording rhythm has been engraved in my head. It has taken me long time to undo it. Most recording they just perform it too quick. My teacher said they are the professional and recording mostly taking best performance section of pianist and clip and join together.  The recording is edited to the best for audiences and their consumers.

I know the metronome, not complete useless, like Tim said in the post, doing duet metronome is God sent. I practice a lot for gospel music, the music most driven me mad. syncopation, strange rhythmically written down so different from what the singer will perform. You may play exactly written in the music, come to rehearsal, the song leader will tell me, we don't sing or play like that. What do you do? Use metronome together to find the pulse of song. Most problem is the establishment of the left hand accompaniment, if I can grasp the beat of the left hand, they will know how to follow. Improvisation can be changed from practice day.

To Danny, you sound that such as fun and interesting in your teaching, I just wish that you were in Sydney, I can entrust the music lesson to you for my 3 boys. They claimed that they have no rhythm, no musical soul, and no patience, how do you teach this sort of creatures?

[lostinidlewonder]

....students will play the quaver at once speed, come the crochet in the next bar, they will carry on the same speed. I told them they have to be careful and ready to change the rhythm.

I get this problem when my students are sight reading, it is often difficult for them to really sense the value of a note while playing unless they have strong musical understanding from playing many pieces. When experienced musicians sight read the music they are closely listening to the sound they are producing at the same time, so they can fully appreciate all sorts of note and rest values. However the beginner is often caught up in the physical nature of hitting the correct notes, so much so that they cannot listen to themselves very well while playing. However make a recording of their playing and play it back to them, they will agree it is not right.

This highlights an important need for the teacher of beginners to demonstrate and show how it should be done. We are pretty much obligated to show them how it should sound exactly, spoon feed them all the way through it. This might seem tedious but it is unavoidable with beginners, as they get more experience with pieces and the process of memorizing music, we can ween them off our spoon feeding and skip more steps, molding them into larger more efficient chunks.

So if they do not give the correct note values we simply must demonstrate the phrase of music for them. We must also highlight how they are doing it wrong, over exaggerate what they are doing and tell them you are doing it over the top not as bad as them. It keeps their confidence up.  Then demonstrate the correct way, highlight its difference to their current way. This often does not allow you to do huge amount of the music every lesson, but this is unimportant. If they can understand how to repair their error in one small part, it has long reaching effect through the piece and also future pieces. You should also point out how this exactly has the far reaching effect, which is a lesson in itself after they have successfully repaired their mistake. Knowledge that there is a far reaching nature of the improvement can be highlighted and act as a source for inspiration for them while they practice away their errors.

They know what I am talking about, but they said they just can't help it sometimes.
...I said they must practice separate hand, do the each part of as individual well and maintain in right order first, otherwise, both hands together will become trouble....

This is why it can be tedious to teach beginners. Because we can tell them this, but in the end we have to go through it with them. Boring as it can be for them, we should go through this entire single hand process with them, highlighting the strong beats to keep them in time.  Both hands is of course a different deal however pattern observation is key to catalyze their memorisation process. I find it a great joy for myself to work out the logic which suits them, even simple pieces can be observed in many ways and it is a real challenge for the teacher of beginners to help them memorize their music with the logic that suits them best.

.....I think it is the abilities to feel and willing to work on the rhythm. I found that if they can have the word singing along will help them. like wrinkle wrinkle little stars. Happy birthday, silent night etc... They don't have the problem, but come learn Bach, John Thompson grade 3 book, there come problem with timing. and value of the note.

This hits on a very important point. To have them learn happy birthday, or something which has lyrics that they know very well. This already is memorized rhythm within themselves which is great to reproduce on a piano for playing experience. They can always check if they are playing the correct rhythm if they sing while they play the melody.  For a teaching method it is important to get them to be able to play the piece from any part, this will force them to do some sight reading to get their bearings in awkward places. This also forces them to notice the rhythm of the piece they already know, but in different areas which can be confusing but controllable for the beginner.

Learning the melody of new pieces are important, Bach often has very complicated melodic lines (compared to happy birthday ) so it is no surprise that the beginner has trouble with it. When one of the pieces for my first exam was Bach I was really confused. It was like a new experience, how to hear Bach music, certainly was different to the basic LH support vs RH melody playing.

[danny elfboy]

To Danny, you sound that such as fun and interesting in your teaching, I just wish that you were in Sydney, I can entrust the music lesson to you for my 3 boys. They claimed that they have no rhythm, no musical soul, and no patience, how do you teach this sort of creatures?

Thank you. Firest I would have to get from them an honest claim about their interest for music. I would never teach people who are forced by someone or by the ghosts of someone; people who feel they must do it for anyone else but themselves. Once you know the person in front of you loves music you know that his/her musical senses are just inhibited. What works is immersion. People lose inhibition when they feel immersed in what they're doing and in the place they're at. It's important to trasmit the joy of music. Music is joy even when it's pain because the liberation of being able to express and vent your frustration, fears and pain is a joy in itself. So no matter how melanchonic, sad and cryptic ... music is always joy.
The music lesson should be coherent with this. Nothing could be considered joy at the army and in fact the environment is sad, depressing, austere, authoritary, overwhelming. It doesn't make any sense when the music environment resembles the army, it's a contradiction with the nature of music and the reason why it is loved by us. Lessons should be more doing even more making mistakes but lessons should be used as a chance to produce the most amount of music that can be produced in an hour. If the student hasn't played at home, hasn't listed to music at home, hasn't been immersed in the music dimension at home, he/she must at least know that once at the lesson there will be a switch to that dimension. As I said once the piano lesson should be understood as "making music" not "getting bored, sitting silently, fearing mistakes, getting so intellectually overwhelmed at the expense of instinctive artistic senses, listening to the same explanations over and over hoping this time you'll go home and remember what has been said and so on"

[chopinmozart7]

i think you have to take everything from the beginning with your students.

[dora96]

Hey Danny,

Do you have kids?

[danny elfboy]

Do you have kids?

Students you mean?

[dora96]

NO your own fresh and blood. Many people tell me that you can't teach your own children. The conflict between mother and children, and relationship create conflict and It is not always as effective as other people teach them. If you have kids, how you approach them? My problem is trying to make it fun and interesting for them, lots of encouragement and rewards  but my kids won't sit still longer enough, I try to tell them to take it slow and easy  but they just won't be humble. One of my friends have given up, and In despair, eventually she put a sign on  the back of the her car " For sale a complete set of cyclopedias is no longer required, because my kids know everything" 

[danny elfboy]

I'm a kid myself so no I don't have kids.
But I believe conflicts with parents are just myths.
Each culture is shaped by certain rituals, ideas, myths, laws and they change the way people form relationships or sense their freedom or develop invidiuality.
There's nothing intrinsically biological or physiological in the concept of conflict, rebellion, recklessness or what not. There are many books that explain how different cultures have no concept of teenage years (for example) as special or traumatic because these things just don't happen there. If you read about parents in the USA who have formed relationships with their children according to theory of respect, individiuality, co-dependence, trust (i.e. unschooled families) you'll see these expected conflicts, rebellions, traumatic parental relations just don't occurr.

The point is that whatever relationship is hard whether we're talking about pupil and teacher, parent and child, friend and friend, boyfriend and girlfriend, job collegues, roomates at whatever age. Focusing on doing (in a relationship) our best to mediateand respect the others would prevent so much drama and problems. Acting superior and blaming relationships problems on biological stereotypes is retarded and creates only conflict.

I have no kids on my own but I have younger siblings and cousins and more often than not I have felt like a parent when in charge of them. I have never had a problem with any of them or never had a quarrel. I respect them fully as much as I respect myself and I respect others to respect me in turn. I would never humiliate them hiding behind the pure lie that I'm superior and I know more. Each of us know more about certain things and less about other. There are a lot of things they know that I don't know anything about.

Not humiliating them also means not acting or talking with them differently. I don't have ways to act and talk that I consider appropriate for my younger relatives but would consider unappropriate for the old ones. You just harvest what you plant. If you treat people like retarded they will act like retarded with you regardless of how incredible they might be with a person that respect them differently and treat them like human beings.

Not sitting still is completely natural, what is unnatural is sitting still.
A lot of university students who can't sit still.

Since we're dealing with art rather than imposing the sitting still I would encourage the instinct of movement (even my cat can't sit still long enough before needing to run, walk and stretch) and switch to other activity. When a student can't sit still it's the right time to focus on something else, respecting his/her needs and maybe play the pieces he/she is supposed to play for him/her. Also if the students were taught that they're human beings with the same right that you and their parents have and full individuality and that deserve respect; they would have no problem claiming politely their need to move. I had a student that would simply say "I get numb and agitated sitting here, can I pause?" and we would drink some water, listen some cds, sitting on the floor or even walk in the park behind the house singing the pieces we were practicing. Sometimes young students seems like bossy, instead of politely asking a pause they just disturb and get hyperactive ... but this is actually often the completely rational reaction to the fact that they have been educated to believe they have no right to ask, no right to disagree, no right to disprove someone, no right to have their needs prioritized; so they just feel like someone who must use brute force to obtain something. I have seen my own cousins acting like this with people who would just discriminate and talking down to them but never once did that to me; we listen each other ideas and needs and just discuss way to mediate.

I also think it's wrong to focus so much on play when working with younger students.
I'm all for play as long as it is universal. I love to play and every human being loves to play (sport is nothing but a game) so I always encourage the playfull side there's in every person but I don't expect younger people to eschew real concrete work in favour of making everything far fetchedly playful. Playful shouldn't mean streotypically playful or non-serious.
I have seen very young kids living in farm and matching real live activities with the playfullness of them all (and I can testify that when you work cooperating with each other in a farm it seems more a game than a job) and they have a maturity unknown too many married adults. It's also a matter of culture. Past cultures had no problem with making people live real life experience and activities, nowadays the modern man is a spoiled inmature zombie completely dependent on targeted recreation (often destructive) only money can buy.

What your friend did sounds rather presumptuous and still based on the distortion of reality according to which adults are omniscient, infallible and not dependent on others. And this is maybe way young children are kept away from that world, so they can't discover the truth which would reduce the artificial power people exploit when pretending to be superior.

Let's say the kids of your friend said "we don't care about what's written in an encyclopedia" (and they would be right, an encyclopedia is not something I force myself to read upon the urging of someone else, but a reference I consult only when I need it. And young children who are taught that's who an encyclopedia works would have no problem seeking the answer to something whenever it pops up in their mind) but why selling it? Isn't she in a way claiming that the encyclopedia is usefull only as long as their kids can learn from it? What about her? Don't worry; I know this is supposed to be a joke but even joke can hide subtle discriminative meanings as it has been the case for racial and sexist jokes.

The point is that once we realize every person is an individual and personal attributes can't be grouped by age, gender or whatever, we will also accept that there are good individuals and not so good ones.

My advice for you in dealing with young students is to treat them respectfully like individuals.
How would you teach a 60 year old piano beginners? What attitude, ideas, concepts would you use? What level of respect and trust would you have?

Use that as a model and apply that model to your younger students as well.
Now the point is that a 60 year old beginner would need certain things while a 60 year old intermediate would need other things. A 60 year old outspoken person would require a certain attitude and a 60 year old inhibited person would require a different one. A 60 year old cycnical would require certain concepts and 60 year old sensitive other ones.

As you can see the point is that you can't create a model for each student, because each student has unique attrbute and experience but that's what you have to focus on.

If you want to find a rationale for grouping people in your mind use these concrete concepts.
A 9 year old outspoken intermediate is similar to the 60 year old outspoken intermediate and completely different from the 9 year old beginner inhibited and sensitive.

Take advantage of the video I sent to you.
You can get a lot of usefull ideas.
As you can see some of the students are as young as 7 and are all hard motivated and stimulated workers.

[etcetra]

I think the problem with metronome is that you can become too dependent on it giving you where the beat is.  I remember i used to be so good at it i can set the metronome on every 4th beat, and yet as soon as i take the metronome off I will be playing out of time. 

I am still having problems, but I think the trick is to learn to feel the rhythm first and realize that there is just as much rhythm in playing mozart or bach as there is in rock or funk music.  I notice how a great classical performance can "groove" in it's own way..after all many of the classical compositions like waltz and minuet are forms of dances. 

Also it might help to emphasize that playing the correct rhythm is just as important as playing the right notes and make them realize that you need to have the same kind of discipline learning notes as you do rhythms.  I think a lot of people have this misconception that once you get the notes you work is done.

[danny elfboy]

I think the problem with metronome is that you can become too dependent on it giving you where the beat is.

The problem is: the beat is not where the metronome it is.
Or better the metronome tells you where the metronomic beat is, not where the musical beat is. A metronome never match the pulse of a live performance, unless the player has been trained to play like a robot and his music is devoid of life.

[thierry13]

If they don't like their brain to be challenged, get rid of them!

Best advice ever 

[dan101]

My past students that have speeding issues have tended to be the ones that were impatient for immediate results. Learning is usually a slow and careful process. Perhaps it would be helpful to throw that thought into the mix.

Of course, speeding could also be nerves in a performance. That should be addressd as well.

[danny elfboy]

My past students that have speeding issues have tended to be the ones that were impatient for immediate results.

I don't think it's a matter of being unable to go slowly but on being unable to maintain a consistent yet malleable rhythm or pulse. Ask people to tap their fingers on a table at regular intervals. You'll noticed that all of them will them to suddenly speed up, then slow down, then again speed up. It's the fluidity and consistency they can't maintain, and I'm not even talking about music students ... just people in general.

[dora96]

The students want to do it fast, speeding in their playing, one of the part is impatient, other part of it when the music change dynamic and moody of the music. When the music is getting excited, they want to play it quick, but immediately forget the original tempo, when the music is claim, or less notes they will slow down. I always feel that it is the development part of the music especially occurs very often in Beethoven Sonata, his music and repertoires are very complicated, there is classical style and romantic style but in the same way before the C.1800 still very strict in tempo rubato shouldn't be in the performance. The concept of rhythm within different period and composers are so hard to predict. Another thing, I find students will speed because they are nervous, or not feeling the confident of the music.

When students are stumbling with their playing, they get agitated, and frustrated. When I suggest to them, slow practice.

[danny elfboy]

The students want to do it fast, speeding in their playing, one of the part is impatient, other part of it when the music change dynamic and moody of the music. When the music is getting excited, they want to play it quick, but immediately forget the original tempo, when the music is claim, or less notes they will slow down..

Dora, if you look at the tape I sent you you'll see this is a very common universal problems.
It is called "excessive coreography" and it's the fault of expressing musical intensity through physical tension. That's how most tendonitis develop. There are far less problem when complex exercises are involved. But with pieces you add emotional content and we tend to "act" with our body the emotion of the piece, only that our body should be busy with playing and coordinating properly and we can't afford being actors as well.

In the tape there's a while section about this problem.
Check it again.

[dora96]

Dora, if you look at the tape I sent you you'll see this is a very common universal problems.
It is called "excessive choreography" and it's the fault of expressing musical intensity through physical tension. That's how most tendinitis develop. There are far less problem when complex exercises are involved. But with pieces you add emotional content and we tend to "act" with our body the emotion of the piece, only that our body should be busy with playing and coordinating properly and we can't afford being actors as well.

In the tape there's a while section about this problem.
Check it again.

Hi Danny,

It is very interesting that I watched the Tape. I find that when I need to focus my eyes will constantly watch the keyboard especially for fast movement, and that automatically build up some sort of the tension. I thought sometimes my body just need to move to relieve some tension. Every time when I watch the tape, 16 years old plays Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody. It was amazing so easy and feel that she is not doing anything, but I must admit that she plays very brilliant but I don't feel that emotional connected. I feel that she will play the note accurate and well coordination, but I don't any excitement compare to other pianists on stage.   

[danny elfboy]

Hi Danny,

It is very interesting that I watched the Tape. I find that when I need to focus my eyes will constantly watch the keyboard especially for fast movement, and that automatically build up some sort of the tension. I thought sometimes my body just need to move to relieve some tension. Every time when I watch the tape, 16 years old plays Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody. It was amazing so easy and feel that she is not doing anything, but I must admit that she plays very brilliant but I don't feel that emotional connected. I feel that she will play the note accurate and well coordination, but I don't any excitement compare to other pianists on stage.   

Sometime we're so used to something that we expect it.
For example many people expect the genius pianists to be like a "mad pianist" ... you know, white straight hair punching frenetically and histerically on the piano. When they see a minute girl, playing with calm and control ... even if she is spectacuraly good they tend to be a bit disappointed; because they can't reconcile that image with the stereotype. It's like eating with the eyes rather than the mouth. Often good looking foods have a terrible taste and not so good looking food have a wonderful taste. Try just to listen to her with your eyes closed. Of course she can't be compared with other seasoned pianists because they surely have been practicing the piece for years always polishing it a bit more. Some pianists spend years making a piece ready for performance, no matter if it sounds already perfect to most listeners. She has been practicing the piece recently and have not spent so much time polishing the interpretative expect and therefore it's less intense than other professional interpretations.

[alpacinator1]

I have a pretty good idea.

Give them Alkan's "Hands Reunited" etude. Although they will likely struggle to play it even at a very slow tempo, force them to play it super fast on the first try. They will obviously fail, and become very frustrated. But keep yelling "faster! faster!" and make them start over whenever they make a mistake. After a few minutes of this they'll probably just quit in a fit of agitation.

Then give 'em  a nice, slow piece and they'll kiss your ass.

[timothy42b]

dora,

I think I have solved your problem.

Well, not me, but David Haynes. 

Here is the link.

&feature=user

Impressive, no? 

[dora96]

it is wishful thinking Tim. Since I posted the thread, I realize the rhythm is not that simple. If I don't get the timing right, the music is dead. What is the man playing the drum, I can't relate his rhythm with his met.?

[etcetra]

1 e & a

he is setting the metronome on the a, its hard to hear it.. I am sure or an it's not a problem for experienced drummer however..

This brings up a good point since drummers have to practice with metronome and you can't get away without doing that in non-classical music..  I wonder whether a well-trained classical pianist can hear that.. I remember my friend was frustrated working with a classical saxophone teacher.. he told his students not to use the metronome and follow your inner pulse...it may have been a good advice, except that he was playing completely out of time.. I've seen the choir director at my school (quite accomplished), struggling to conduct with a click track during a studio recording for a sound track.

I know that playing with the metronome would not necessary make you a machine.. at least when you listen to funk drummers, its the precision that makes them groove.  I just think there are a lot of things thats too hard to learn without the metronome unless the student already has a good sense of rhythm..

For example you might be able to hear the difference between triplet with a rest in between (like swing feel) and quarter note followed by a 16th note, but a student might have problem playing these two distinct rhythm..maybe he/she is rushing the second note, and the result is you might get something between an 8th note and triplet..

You can show them how its different during lessons but .they might not know if they are doing it right when they are practicing at home, unless they have a metronome that would allow them to hear where the beats are.. you an tell them to subdivide the rhythm and the problem may still persist because the student is rushing while they are counting the subdivision....

I think the biggest thing with rhythm is feeling it an exposure to it.. I mean there is a stereotype about  African-American kids being born with sense of rhythm.. it makes some sense considering the music they are listening to.. i mean just compare the difference between the kind of music they play on their sunday service to typical church service..

Also this is just a thought.. but the problem may be that we are not as strict about playing the right rhythm as we are about about playing the right notes... esp for students.. I've seen plenty of people who taught themselves couple of simple piano music, most of them play the notes right but rarely do the play the rhythm right.

[timothy42b]

it is wishful thinking Tim. Since I posted the thread, I realize the rhythm is not that simple. If I don't get the timing right, the music is dead. What is the man playing the drum, I can't relate his rhythm with his met.?

dora,
give his method a second chance, because it illustrates several interesting principles that may help you.

first, he is playing without rubato - the pulse is steady.  I tend to think you should start this way and add rubato later, whereas too many pianists use way too much too soon.  Rubato should be a change to the pulse, not an absence of a pulse.  This also allows you to do subtle variations around the pulse without changing it. 

now, most important, he is subdividing the beat.  Think about it, if you measure with a stick marked only in yards you'll be accurate to about half a yard;  but if it's marked in inches you'll be accurate to half an inch.  Look at a real measuring tape, it's marked in sixteenths just like music.

He is counting 1-e-and-uh 2-e-and-uh, but he's putting the metronome beat on uh instead of 1.  That subtle difference is what makes his exercise different.  Subdivide, subdivide, subdivide and conquer.