Most difficult scale

[arensky]

Self explanatory. If your choice is minor please indicate if it's harmonic, melodic or natural minor.

[pianistimo]

f minor.  why did chopin have to write so much music in this key?  i do not like jumping from Ab to C, although it is possible to do with ease probably if one switches to another fingering.  can you give me one that is non-traditional?  maybe 1235  or something wierd like that.

btw, there is a fantastic scale book by james francis cooke (it has all the scales/fingering suggestions you can possibly think - excepting jazz?) and is entitled 'mastering the scales and arpeggios.' 

come to think of it - here in this book it suggests 1234 123, 1234 123....as the suggested fingering.  that makes MUCH more sense!  don't let a teacher teach you the opposite - or you'll want to scream.  123 1234 is just retarded.

[Petter]

come to think of it - here in this book it suggests 1234 123, 1234 123....as the suggested fingering.  that makes MUCH more sense!  don't let a teacher teach you the opposite - or you'll want to scream.  123 1234 is just retarded.

Do you mean for every scale? How is this retarded in scales like B major and Gb major?
I think pentatonic and half/whole diminished scales are the hardest.

[arensky]

I think pentatonic and half/whole diminished scales are the hardest.

I agree that they're much harder than the "conventional" scales I listed. Perhaps part of that difficulty is psychological, due to the removed tonal character of those scales. My main purpose in creating this poll was to see what people thought of the relative difficulty of the scales most commonly used in piano teaching and examinations. For me, the choice was eb harmonic minor, closely followed by f# harmonic minor.

[nanabush]

I chose C major.  Not the scale on its own, but if there's a run in C major in one hand, but the other hand is doing something else I'll always fumble my fingers up because there's no bearing points with black notes.  Scale on it's own I'd say E minor, for some reason I find that first F# strenuous lol.

[alpacinator1]

I voted C major because I find stuff like that humorous.

[pianistimo]

dear petter, no i didn't mean all the 'easy' scales - that fit well with 123 1234... - but the ones where there is a leap.  a large leap.  it makes more sense if one is in love with under thumb technique (which i still am to some extent - but not always) to tuck it under at a closer proximity than a two whole step jump.  but, there are many ways to approach scales.  i think bernhard? and others suggested over thumb scales too - which is basically, just letting the thumb be relaxed and not doing anything with it per se.  just moving the hand sideways quickly.  sometimes people forget they need to move the hand and worry too much about the fingers.  if you do both at the same time - you're getting there.

if you watch great jazz musicians - they are constnatly doing scales and stuff -a nd rarely care which fingers they are using.  it's all in the relaxation.  however, for classically trained pianists (which tend to be obsessive-compulsive anyways) - working out a fingering that is repetitive makes sense.  who wants to get stuck in a scalular passage and have their fingers tangled up in a knot. 

i say - whatever keeps your hand in the flattest and best position.  a fingering is bad when you force up your wrist and look like you are in pain.  piano playing shouldn't be uncomfortable or painful.  that is why some people get carpel tunnels and other things.  they practice too perfectionistically the wrong way.  as though practicing this or that is going to = perfection.  what = perfection can be a simple chord in a piece by mozart played like alberti bass with the left hand.  *you think i've gone too far now?  - see how that feels - and transfer the feeling to everything else!

[Petter]

I am a jazzpianist and I was constantly doing scales with no regards to fingering. I started taking classical lessons this spring and my teacher went through what I suppose is the thumb under technique. I had never practiced scales ever (actually I probably never ever practiced, just played). She got me started with Hanon, curved fingers and easy Burgmuller pieces and it felt humiliating at first, but I coped and I started experiencing that I gained more control. By now I´ve worked my way through Beethovens easy G minor sonata and the Inventions. But...It´s apparent now how messed up my right arm is from 18 years of playing on pure will and a grain of talent. My teacher also made a remark about my arm. That´s why this is interesting to me, and confusing.
 I´ve indulged myself in reading up on piano technique over the past 8 months; on this forum, Neuhause, Chang etc while taking the advice from this teacher. The contradictions in my head make me feel like a Swiss cuckoo clock while the pain in my arm, shoulder and back is very real.

[rc]

*RC thinks back*

I remember that Bbm harmonic gave me some frustration, getting that A without hitting the adjascent black keys.  Going from C#m to Db also gave me some troubles.

I jumped into grade 8 RCM, which meant I only had to study certain keys...  Then as soon as I started getting into the rest of the keys, they all felt so difficult.  But after a while on a scale practice regimen, they all feel pretty much the same level of comfort.

I think it's mostly a matter of famliarity.  The basic mechanics from key to key isn't so different.

...That said, I also find it easier to find my way around with more black keys

[mad_max2024]

C Major

Having no black keys is a pain.

And A minor of course...

[pianoplayjl]

B flat minor. I'm still having trouble with joining the F# to the A, using the fingering 4-3. I find minor scales more harder than major and melodic.

[shubertimproviz]

C major is the easiest!! why the most of people have voted "C -dur"............?

[pianoplayjl]

Exactly! Probably because it has no sharps/flats and that there is no black keys used. It was said Chopin considered B major easiest and C the hardest so that's why he gave B major to his beginner students and C to his advanced students.

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

C major and the minor scales that start on black keys... especially B flat and F sharp minor. For me, anyway

C major is not the easiest scale to play. Maybe the easiest scale to write on a theory exam... I get lost in all those white keys!

[haydnseeker]

B minor harmonic.  Because you have to go up for a single black key three times, and the G natural is awkward if your 3 is a bit wide for the gap between F sharp and G sharp.

B flat minor harmonic is next, for similar reasons.

[pianoplayjl]

e flat minor is also pretty hard. Personally, I find minor scales are alot harder to play than major scales because of the raised 7th note, which causes me to sort of stretch my fingers even though they are long enough. For the B flat minor scale I have to play the Gb staccato so that I can reach the A natural, even though I know it is a really bad habit. there is nothing wrong if I play the scale slowly, though.

[pianoplayjl]

Right now the two most hardest scales I find are A major and F#minor. I"m re learning the a major while I'm starting the F sharp minor. The F sharp minor scale is just about the only scale I haven't learnt out of the major/minor scales. What I find challenging about the a major scale is the part where I descend and I have to join the B to the A. I'm using 4-1 right now. I'm having problems speeding up F sharp minor scale. IMO I find that re learning scales are more harder than first learning them.

JL

[jtguru]

As far as just playing an ordinary scale, I don't really have a "most difficult."
But as far as familiarity with the scale for the purpose of improvising, etc. my worst is probably F# Major.

[nyiregyhazi]

Right now the two most hardest scales I find are A major and F#minor. I"m re learning the a major while I'm starting the F sharp minor. The F sharp minor scale is just about the only scale I haven't learnt out of the major/minor scales. What I find challenging about the a major scale is the part where I descend and I have to join the B to the A. I'm using 4-1 right now. I'm having problems speeding up F sharp minor scale. IMO I find that re learning scales are more harder than first learning them.

JL

Try using A major fingering for both (ie. thumbs meeting on A). It saves a lot of needless confusion and I personally find it far less cramped than the "correct" fingering, when getting from C sharp to D.

[megadodd]

For running up and down the keyboard with speed, B minor harmonic is the hardest, and then C major.
Bm because of the up and down, up and down, up and down... it's just, pain.
And C major because it is so easy to miss a note here or there.

Easiest one for me is E major, due to countless of hours practicing it for the Chopin C# minor Nocturne. Holy sh*t I wish I had the perserverance to redo that with all scales. But w/e, it comes with time.

Right now I'm improving my scales (and arpeggios + cadenzes + diminished 7 arpeggios) 2 each day, Major+it's respective minor. I don't really care for melodic though.

Anyone thinks melodic scales are just as important?

[pianoplayjl]

Try using A major fingering for both (ie. thumbs meeting on A). It saves a lot of needless confusion and I personally find it far less cramped than the "correct" fingering, when getting from C sharp to D.

Thanks N, I'll try that. If it works I will stick with it.

For running up and down the keyboard with speed, B minor harmonic is the hardest, and then C major.
Bm because of the up and down, up and down, up and down... it's just, pain.
And C major because it is so easy to miss a note here or there.

Agreed with the B minor scale. I just find it a bit more easier to play than B flat minor. They have a very similar pattern but reversed. C major wouldn't be htat hard to play, just needs practice. Although C major is the scale most likely to be played with uneveness.

Anyone thinks melodic scales are just as important?

Yes, they are just as important but they are not ulitised as key signatures in pieces so I just think they are inferior to the Major/minor scales. The part where I find hardest about the Melodic minor scales is the ascending part towards the top and when it descends. i usually stuff it up.

Anyone also think that Chromatics and arpeggios are hard? I find the arpeggios with only white notes and black notes to be the hardest i.e. C major nad F sharp major. I sometimes stuff up the chromatics when it reaches the high end and starts to descend.

JL

[jtguru]

Anyone also think that Chromatics and arpeggios are hard? I find the arpeggios with only white notes and black notes to be the hardest i.e. C major nad F sharp major.

For me personally, white-only arpeggios are actually easier than many arpeggios that have a combination of white keys and black keys.

[ted]

When I read this I thought Susan had risen from the dead, so to speak, as it were, to use an apt metaphor. Gave me quite a turn for a few minutes until I saw the date.

One scale is as good or as bad as another for me.

[pianoplayjl]

Aside from the common scales there is also a scale I found that had to be played for some exam. It is the whole tone scale. I bet that the scale is much harder than the major/minor/melodic minor scales. I tried playing it hands together. Quite confusing when I played it. Perhaps even other very rare scales. 

JL

[ajspiano]

Aside from the common scales there is also a scale I found that had to be played for some exam. It is the whole tone scale. I bet that the scale is much harder than the major/minor/melodic minor

uncommon scale fingering..  131234 - if it begins on C..  or 121234 i guess.

or 231231 perhaps for beginning on Db..  likely stays the same finger on any given note where ever you begin..

took me a while to get my head around diminished scales..

[49410enrique]

probably a little embarassing but Bb major always gave me he11.,

[pianoplayjl]

Recently I started learning these scales which are: Thirds and Sixths (chromatic scales in minor thirds and major sixths)-four octaves. All the scales have to be prepared with the following properties:

scales in thirds: left hand on keynote

Scales in sixths: right hand on keynote.

It was quite an unconventional scale when I first learnt it a few days ago. My fingers were squashed up and I got confused with the fingering somehow and I had to look up the scales book for reference. I had to do it hand sseperate 2 times to get it hands together slowly. But in the end I got it.

JL