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Op. 10 No. 8 vs. Op. 10 No. 12 (Read 10349 times)

Offline conforza

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Op. 10 No. 8 vs. Op. 10 No. 12
« on: August 23, 2008, 07:32:38 PM »
Why is Chopin's Etude Op. 10 No. 8 considered more difficult than the Revolutionary Etude? Yes, in the 8th the right hand must move more and farther than the left hand does in the 12th but in the 8th the left hand's melody is rather simple compared to the right hand's melody in the 12th. Why is it that No. 12 is constantly labeled "one of the easier etudes" yet it is approximately the same speed and, in my opinion, the same technical demand?

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Chopin: Etude, opus 10 no 8
piano sheet music of Etude


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Chopin: Etude, opus 10 no 12
piano sheet music of Etude


Offline clara.schumann

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Re: Op. 10 No. 8 vs. Op. 10 No. 12
«Reply #1 on: August 24, 2008, 02:53:37 AM »
I played them both, and i say that too- no.8 is much more difficult. maybe because all the pressure goes on one hand and it really gets tired by the end of the piece. and in the middle there's quite a hard part for the left hand.
i dont know why. but it is true, after no.8 the revolutionary is a joke.

Offline conforza

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Re: Op. 10 No. 8 vs. Op. 10 No. 12
«Reply #2 on: August 24, 2008, 03:30:48 AM »
I played them both, and i say that too- no.8 is much more difficult. maybe because all the pressure goes on one hand and it really gets tired by the end of the piece. and in the middle there's quite a hard part for the left hand.
i dont know why. but it is true, after no.8 the revolutionary is a joke.
Really? Well, do you think that for people with big hands the difference is minimized?

Offline akonow

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Re: Op. 10 No. 8 vs. Op. 10 No. 12
«Reply #3 on: August 24, 2008, 06:35:14 AM »
In my opinion, the thumb-under technique in Op. 10 No. 8 makes it significantly more difficult but it all depends on you in the end.

Offline pianisten1989

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Re: Op. 10 No. 8 vs. Op. 10 No. 12
«Reply #4 on: August 24, 2008, 08:09:41 AM »
It's because the no 12 hasn't got any real "hard-reaching-places" it quite pianistic. Uhm... There are almost no places in that etude where you have to strech, like in the F-minor, no 10. That makes it a lot less tiering when you know the piece.

Offline clara.schumann

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Re: Op. 10 No. 8 vs. Op. 10 No. 12
«Reply #5 on: August 24, 2008, 11:05:16 PM »
Really? Well, do you think that for people with big hands the difference is minimized?

i'm not sure there's any connection in this case. both are totally playable for people with small hands, i have small hands(long fingers though) and i handeled (that's not how you write this word, right?  :-[) no.8 after some work. at the end of the day it's all about technique.
good luck!

Offline teresa_b

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Re: Op. 10 No. 8 vs. Op. 10 No. 12
«Reply #6 on: August 25, 2008, 11:05:06 PM »
For what it's worth, I have worked on both, and I found no 8 to be much harder than 12.  I haven't tried either one in a long time, but I seem to recall that it's the stretches in the runs in no. 8 that make it much more awkward. And the middle section is pretty difficult.

Teresa

Offline malchus

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Re: Op. 10 No. 8 vs. Op. 10 No. 12
«Reply #7 on: January 22, 2009, 07:15:28 AM »
yes, no. 8 is decidedly more diffidult, probably because the 12th has basically one hand position (that of the first line). the no.8 has a mostly simple left hand, but the right hand moves around a lot which is very tiring for the arm.
bear in mind that none of chopin's etudes can be labeled "easy". if you have good sized hands and if you've played a couple, you'll get the hang of the rest. cheers! :)

Offline amelialw

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Re: Op. 10 No. 8 vs. Op. 10 No. 12
«Reply #8 on: January 22, 2009, 03:55:22 PM »
op.10 no.8 is harder. It requires alot of R.H stamina, and can be tiring to play if you don't control the amount of energy you use within the 1st 4 pages. I have played it for enough of competitions and exams to know that :)
J.S Bach Italian Concerto,Beethoven Sonata op.2 no.2,Mozart Sonatas K.330&333,Chopin Scherzo no.2,Etude op.10 no.12&Fantasie Impromptu

Offline mike_lang

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Re: Op. 10 No. 8 vs. Op. 10 No. 12
«Reply #9 on: January 23, 2009, 01:37:41 PM »
They are both very difficult if you do not have a solid connection of the arm weight to the fingers or a stiff thumb.  It is silly to say that one is more difficult than the other because each person has different strengths and weaknesses.  While it is true that 10/2, 25/6, and 25/11 are the most complex in each their respective "categories" (Chopin himself divided technique into adjacent notes, double notes, and broken/non-adjacent notes), it is generally not worthwhile to rate the études in terms of difficulty, but rather in terms of what is most useful to an individual pianist.  That having been said, I think it may be quite useful to work on 10/8 and 10/12 simultaneously, as they complement each other in character and both deal with the problem of suppleness of the thumb.  If one hand knows better, for example, how to maneuver the thumb, it can teach the other.

Best wishes for your study of these wonderful pieces,

Michael Langlois

Offline nearenough

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Re: Op. 10 No. 8 vs. Op. 10 No. 12
«Reply #10 on: January 23, 2009, 07:38:33 PM »
The problem with #8 are the disparate and unpredictable places each hand must be to start and complete each phrase. #12 is much more predictably patterned. Once you have learned the general left hand scheme the piece falls into place. Not so #8. The right hand is up and down the keyboard and the left fairly steady but not written as a coordinate of the right. It's similar to rubbing round on your tummy with one hand and patting your head up and down with the other.

Offline cloches_de_geneve

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Re: Op. 10 No. 8 vs. Op. 10 No. 12
«Reply #11 on: February 01, 2009, 03:35:55 PM »
Which etudes are more difficult than 10/8? Just about a handful I would argue (10/1, 10/2, 10/4, 25/6, 25/11). Personally, I find it harder than 10/7 or 25/8.

Which etudes are easier than 10/12? Some of the slow ones (10/3, 10/6), while the black keys, the harp, and 25/2 are about at the same level.

No doubt: 10/8 is significantly more difficult than 10/12. The most obvious reason is that the sequence of notes for the RH in 10/8 is just much more convoluted to play than the sequence of notes for the LH in 12/10 (imagine you would need to play 10/8 with your left!)

One reason 10/8 is rather challenging is that it has some awkward, rather abrupt turns of music and texture that need to be well-planned and prepared in order no to stumble over them, whereas 10/12 flows quite naturally. 

10/8 reserves some nasty passages for the left as well. Pedaling in 10/8 is much more tricky than in 10/12.

Under pressure, like in a performance situation, the gap in difficulty btw. both etudes widens further...

Finally, I disagree with m_langlois that it is silly to rate the etudes in terms of relative difficulty. If it were really silly, you could give 25/6 or 25/11 to a moderately advanced player just as well as 10/3 or 25/2. In realty this never happens, of course. There are objective differences in difficulty of piano works and this also applies to the chopin etudes.
"It's true that I've driven through a number of red lights on occasion, but on the other hand I've stopped at a lot of green ones but never gotten credit for it." -- Glenn Gould

Offline mike_lang

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Re: Op. 10 No. 8 vs. Op. 10 No. 12
«Reply #12 on: February 01, 2009, 06:02:54 PM »
Finally, I disagree with m_langlois that it is silly to rate the etudes in terms of relative difficulty.

I would disagree with myself as well if that is what I had said.  In fact, there are some general levels of complexity within the set, but despite being musically two completely different ideas, 10/8 and 10/12 are difficult according to an individual's weakness, perhaps for one pianist 10/8 is more, and for another, 10/12.

Now, what is silly is to say that there is an absolute progression, or an order in which ALL of the études should be studied.  There are a few that are a good introduction to Chopin's technical approach, such as 25/1 and 10/1, and some that are better played (10/2, 25/6) once some basic things have been mastered.  However, within these larger categories, the difficulty is different for each person.  The eighth Chopin étude is not absolutely more difficult than the twelfth, or vice versa.

I hope this clarifies what I have said.

Best wishes,

ML

Offline general disarray

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Re: Op. 10 No. 8 vs. Op. 10 No. 12
«Reply #13 on: February 01, 2009, 09:17:57 PM »

Pedaling in 10/8 is much more tricky than in 10/12.



What??

10/12 suffers horribly and turns into a piano-hack's festival when pedal is used.  NO pedaling for this Etude.  That's one of the major Etude-challenges of this Etude.  No pedal.

10/8 "much more tricky?"  You're kidding.  Pedaling's about the only straight-forward issue in this Etude.
" . . . cross the ocean in a silver plane . . . see the jungle when it's wet with rain . . . "

Offline general disarray

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Re: Op. 10 No. 8 vs. Op. 10 No. 12
«Reply #14 on: February 01, 2009, 09:30:26 PM »
I would disagree with myself as well if that is what I had said.  In fact, there are some general levels of complexity within the set, but despite being musically two completely different ideas, 10/8 and 10/12 are difficult according to an individual's weakness, perhaps for one pianist 10/8 is more, and for another, 10/12.

Now, what is silly is to say that there is an absolute progression, or an order in which ALL of the études should be studied.  There are a few that are a good introduction to Chopin's technical approach, such as 25/1 and 10/1, and some that are better played (10/2, 25/6) once some basic things have been mastered.  However, within these larger categories, the difficulty is different for each person.  The eighth Chopin étude is not absolutely more difficult than the twelfth, or vice versa.

I hope this clarifies what I have said.

Best wishes,

ML

Well, this is a good example of how ranking Etudes according to relative difficulty is a risky endeavor.

ML finds 10/1 a "good introduction to Chopin's technical approach," and he would be right technically speaking, but this Etude, as an intro to Chopin's approach, would intimidate and discourage most pianists from pursuing more Chopin.  Even Horowitz regarded Op. 10/1 as THE most difficult Etude of the two sets.  I find it nearly impossible in some more chromatic passages of the middle section.  Yes, I can rotate, but that's not enough.  You must have long fingers OR wide spacing between the fingers.  I have neither.  As a result, to play it at tempo, I have devised fingerings in several bars that are not advised by Chopin -- or anyone else I've ever seen, but I'll be my bottom dollar many pianists have found this solution!  It's a beautiful piece of music and I'll break orthodox fingering rules to be able to play it. 

As to the rest of his post, I would be in agreement. 
" . . . cross the ocean in a silver plane . . . see the jungle when it's wet with rain . . . "