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Topic: When doing LH and RH together, concentrate on which hand? (Invention No. 8) (Read 13984 times)

senunkan

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Posts: 3

When doing LH and RH together, concentrate on which hand? (Invention No. 8)

on: September 26, 2008, 07:58:17 AM

Hi Everyone,

I just joined this forum want to introduce myself.
I wanted to share some experience about me learning how to play the piano and at the same time I need some advice on whether I am doing is correct.

Firstly, a little background of myself:
I have been playing the classical guitar for about 16 years and can do pieces like Bach's Lute Suite.
Recently I have been introduced to playing the piano by my pianist friends.
Playing the piano really made me have a totally different look at the RH LH coordination.
I am a total beginner when it comes to piano and my teacher are essentially my pianist friends dropping me hints here and there.
In terms of finger strength, my LH is actually stronger than my RH although my master hand is RH.
This the consequence of my guitar playing background, in which the LH does most of the fret pressing, requiring lots of strength and stamina.

I don't own a piano, but intend to get one soon.
Most of the time I can only practise on my table top, imagining the keys and visualising the playing.
About once a week, I will rent a studio for about an hour to do a real practice on the acoustic piano.

Currently, I am working on Bach's 2 part Invention no. 8 in F major.
Based on the recomendation of my pianist friends, I practised each hand separately.
The problem comes when I tried to play together both of the hands.
I discover that my mind wasn't able to consciously control the 2 hand together.
Even when I slowed the tempo to a crawl, I simply could not coordinate the RH and LH.
If I concentrate on the RH, the LH will stop, not knowing what to do and vice versa.
My pianist friend advised me that I need to listen to 2 voices in my head.
Compared to guitar playing, the different voices are usually played by the RH thumbs vs the RH fingers.

It was until one fine day, something strange occurred to me.
Instead of concentrating on the hand with the most notes, I concentrate on the hand playing the lesser number of notes (i.e. of longer duration in note value).
I.e. At the 2nd measure, when the LH comes in I concentrate on the LH, counting 1 n 2 n 3 n, fitting in the LH notes into the rhythm, while letting my RH go on a auto mode, controlled by my subsconscious mind
Then at the 3rd measure, my attention will focus on the RH instead, fitting in those quaver notes and let the LH goes into subconscious auto mode.
Previously I was concentrating at the hand with the more notes, which I didnt manage to make them work together.
Now I and concentrating on the hand with the lesser notes.

My question is what I am doing common to all pianist?
Or am I doing a strange thing?

regards,
Sen

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lostinidlewonder

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Re: When doing LH and RH together, concentrate on which hand? (Invention No. 8)

Reply #1 on: September 26, 2008, 02:57:49 PM

You are on the right track. When we practice 2 hands we must use one hand to help guide the other. That is the position of one hand causes the position in the other to change. This can be found in many ways and what you have described is a the right way to look at your music when trying to learn both hands, i.e using the hand with lesser notes to guide how the other fits together and inbetween it. It is thinking about groups of notes at a time, not the individual notes which is the right way.

As you increase your piano playing experience certain hand movements that work together will happen automatically. The best thing to do is try to do BH as soon as possible. Single hands is good to get your bearings, but you really want to crack both hands immediately. If it gets too hard you can always reduce the amount of notes that you play and slowly add the notes but always strive do BH.

In the end you must abandon this thinking, eventually your hands should acquire the required muscular memory to play groups of notes without consciously thinking about them. Then you can focus on the sound and in Bach the longer notes are usually staccato against a more legato faster notes... like staccato quavers against legato semiquavers. That is standard interpretation of Bach.

I would say your strong LH would be an advantage for you at the piano. You will need a teacher to really teach you hand form at the piano but as a general guide you should strive for relaxed flattened fingers. Chopin considered RH: E GbAbBb C with 1 234 5
LH: F GbAbBb C 5 432 1 as a natural form for our hands at the keyboard, where we feel the black notes as springs to our fingers.

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senunkan

PS Silver Member
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Posts: 3

Re: When doing LH and RH together, concentrate on which hand? (Invention No. 8)

Reply #2 on: September 29, 2008, 09:58:26 AM

Thanks for the advice!
Will certainly work on it!

Sen

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tsagari

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Posts: 137

Re: When doing LH and RH together, concentrate on which hand? (Invention No. 8)

Reply #3 on: September 30, 2008, 06:52:46 AM

Hi and wellcome to the forum

I post the following link on the fundamentals of piano practice. I think you will find all the help you need. For me this book is the bible of the pianist. Vert useful

.
In general when you practice invation after hands separate practice (hs), practice (hs) by memory and then practice hands together (ht). When you practice ht take the first two measures and then add a third in a pattern like 12+3 23+4 34+5 etc or 12+34 and then 234, 56 and then 456 and so on. Then you can start the piece from the end practicing from the last two measures.
Also there are a number of posts in the forum by a gold mumber named "bernhard".
https://www.pianofundamentals.com/book/en/chapter_1

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Nancy

db05

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Posts: 1908

Re: When doing LH and RH together, concentrate on which hand? (Invention No. 8)

Reply #4 on: September 30, 2008, 07:21:13 AM

Quote from: tsagari on September 30, 2008, 06:52:46 AM

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,31515.0.html

Hi and wellcome to the forum

I post the following link on the fundamentals of piano practice. I think you will find all the help you need. For me this book is the bible of the pianist. Vert useful .

Wait, that's not the correct link.

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tsagari

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Posts: 137

Re: When doing LH and RH together, concentrate on which hand? (Invention No. 8)

Reply #5 on: September 30, 2008, 08:01:09 AM

Thanks dbO5
I modify the link it is ok now

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Nancy

Petter

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Posts: 1183

Re: When doing LH and RH together, concentrate on which hand? (Invention No. 8)

Reply #6 on: September 30, 2008, 01:15:45 PM

Is CC Chang an accomplished pianist? Just curious, what´s his background?

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db05

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Sr. Member
Posts: 1908

Re: When doing LH and RH together, concentrate on which hand? (Invention No. 8)

Reply #7 on: September 30, 2008, 01:21:11 PM

Quote from: Petter on September 30, 2008, 01:15:45 PM

Is CC Chang an accomplished pianist? Just curious, what´s his background?

Physicist and amateur pianist. His daughters are the accomplished ones. He got the ideas from their piano lessons.

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I'm burning like a bridge for your body

ptyrrell

PS Silver Member
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Posts: 35

Re: When doing LH and RH together, concentrate on which hand? (Invention No. 8)

Reply #8 on: October 03, 2008, 04:01:50 AM

you sound a lot like myself...I studied classical guitar (major) at university with piano as a second subject. Even though I love classical guitar I think I am more in love with the music for piano. For the last 9 years or so I have devoted myself to piano.

If you don't have it their is a brilliant book available for download on the web. It is called Fundamentals of piano practice by C. C. Chang at https://members.aol.com/chang8828/contents.htm Chang talks about the importance of memory play in practicing. It has really helped me a great deal. He also talks about intuitive and counter intuitive practice, intuitive meaning to always practice slow, which I have learnt is not such a great idea. He discusses invention no 8 in detail. The ideas don't work for everyone but I think it is the best book I have read on piano practice. good luck

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tsagari

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Posts: 137

Re: When doing LH and RH together, concentrate on which hand? (Invention No. 8)

Reply #9 on: October 03, 2008, 05:26:00 AM

Quote from: ptyrrell on October 03, 2008, 04:01:50 AM

If you don't have it their is a brilliant book available for download on the web. It is called Fundamentals of piano practice by C. C. Chang at https://members.aol.com/chang8828/contents.htm Chang talks about the importance of memory play in practicing. It has really helped me a great deal. He also talks about intuitive and counter intuitive practice, intuitive meaning to always practice slow, which I have learnt is not such a great idea. He discusses invention no 8 in detail. The ideas don't work for everyone but I think it is the best book I have read on piano practice. good luck

I feel the same about this book. Although as I understant counter intuitive method is not not practing slow. It is about not practicing following what your logic says . This book for me was the missing link between what my teacher is telling me to do when I am practing and the reason behind her instraction.

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Nancy

guendola

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Posts: 189

Re: When doing LH and RH together, concentrate on which hand? (Invention No. 8)

Reply #10 on: October 09, 2008, 04:25:57 PM

Practising hands separately is often necessary but as you realised, there is a problem: When only one hand plays, it doesn't play exactly as it would play if the other hand played as well. And the other hand gives a different orientation than a vacant keyboard.

I think the main reason why teachers are so speficially keen on separate hands practise on fugues and similar music is because there are seval concurrent melodies in each hand and the student must be aware of those.

In order to learn playing the notes correctly, practising with separate hands can be very helpful. But the very next step must be to put them together in order to find all the common movements, improve fingering (hands like to copy each others movements) and so on. From this stage, it is still very helpful to play individual "layers" - i.e. the different voices - eventually and then start singing the main one along while practising.

You will notice that this invention (just like all the other ones by Bach in the same book) has a main theme or motive that is played over and over in different keys and octaves. Give this one a bit more emphasis and learn singing it. Then you are on the right track. These inventions and all Fugues are different to "normal songs", because the melody is not the top voice and it isn't even in the same place all the time. So it needs a lot more attention than "usual melodies".

So finally answering the original question: Always concentrate on the hand that is playing the main motive and have a look at the other hand whenever necessary.

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senunkan

PS Silver Member
Newbie
Posts: 3

Re: When doing LH and RH together, concentrate on which hand? (Invention No. 8)

Reply #11 on: October 11, 2008, 04:24:42 PM

Hi All,

Thanks for all the responses and advice.
I have read that book by Chang, and in fact I applied that fundamental idea for my guitar practice too.

An update on my progress.
I am still doing the 1st part of the song just before the modulation to the C Major key.
Now I am slightly better at coordination of the both hands but at a slow tempo.
While playing I concentrate on things like where to do staccato for the individual hands.
My friend also advises me to concentrate on that as it will be difficult to change later on.

I realised piano playing is abit like conducting a guitar ensemble.
The 2 players are the LH and RH while the brain is the conductor counting the beats in the rhythm.
Hands separate practice allows me to concentrate on the hand which has the more sophiscated timing sequence in the notes, while the other hand can go on auto mode.
After some practice, I realise I am begining to be able to shift the concentration momentarily on any of the hands.
I think this could be due to both hands are able to go on auto mode.

Actually I am attracted to the piano primarily because of Bach's pieces.
Piano can do much more in terms of counterpoints as compared to Guitar.
After starting to play the piano, it reallys gives me much respect for all the pianist.

Sen

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