Prejudice against Scotland?

[general disarray]

I always wondered about the historic origins of the antipathy on the part of the English towards the people of Scotland.

Samuel Johnson, for example, in his "Dictionary of the English Language" struck a classic blow in this famous definition:

"oats: A grain, which in England is generally given to horses, but in Scotland appears to support the people."

Can anyone Over There enlighten me?

[G.W.K]

I always wondered about the historic origins of the antipathy on the part of the English towards the people of Scotland.

Samuel Johnson, for example, in his "Dictionary of the English Language" struck a classic blow in this famous definition:

"oats: A grain, which in England is generally given to horses, but in Scotland appears to support the people."

Can anyone Over There enlighten me?

Oh god, this is going to cause major arguments! LOL

G.W.K

[G.W.K]

It mainly dates away back centuries ago when the English attacked us (Scots) and then we beat them up. Since then, the English have remained...ah...hostile. If you're a Scottish person and you go to England and hand over a Scottish pound note (which is the same as an English pound note except it says; "Bank of Scotland"), they won't accept it because it's "not legal tender".

So, since then, the English and Scottish people annoy and hate each other just like most of the world does against Americans. (And I'm not being nasty, I'm just saying a fact).

G.W.K

[general disarray]

It mainly dates away back centuries ago when the English attacked us (Scots) and then we beat them up. Since then, the English have remained...ah...hostile. If you're a Scottish person and you go to England and hand over a Scottish pound note (which is the same as an English pound note except it says; "Bank of Scotland"), they won't accept it because it's "not legal tender".

So, since then, the English and Scottish people annoy and hate each other just like most of the world does against Americans. (And I'm not being nasty, I'm just saying a fact).

G.W.K

Well, you can't offend me with that remark about the US.  We have become totally disgusting.  Thanks for your comments re:  history of the prejudice.   

[G.W.K]

Well, you can't offend me with that remark about the US.  We have become totally disgusting.  Thanks for your comments re:  history of the prejudice.   

*Falls off seat in surprise*

I was expecting an "America is the best" speech! Your welcome...lol

G.W.K

[ahinton]

If you're a Scottish person and you go to England and hand over a Scottish pound note (which is the same as an English pound note except it says; "Bank of Scotland"), they won't accept it because it's "not legal tender".

I don't think that this is correct. To begin with, it does not, of course, matter whether it may be a Scottish, an English or a Lithuanian person that hands over a Scottish banknote to pay for a transaction in England, for the acceptance or otherwise of such banknotes in England is in no sense dependent upon the nationality of the person proffering them. Secondly, as far as I am aware, whilst retailers in England have a right to refuse Scottish banknotes if they so choose, that does not mean that they are not legal tender in England; take one into an English bank and it cannot be refused unless thought to be a forgery. This is no different to the situation where increasing numbers of retailers in England (and Scotland, for that matter), are refusing to accept cheques; it is a matter of company policy rather than one that relates to the validity or otherwise of such cheques. Furthermore, some English and Scottish retailers will accept euros, although they are not, of course, obliged to do so by law. In any case, Bank of Scotland is one of only three Scottish banks that used to issue banknotes, the others being Royal Bank of Scotland and Clydesdale Bank; the first two of these have in any case just been taken into public ownership by the British government in London, which fact would make the refusal of banknotes issued by them even more untenable than was the case before this happened.

Best,

Alistair

[argerichfan]

So, since then, the English and Scottish people annoy and hate each other just like most of the world does against Americans. (And I'm not being nasty, I'm just saying a fact).

Seems to me there's more snipping between the English and French.  Still see it in the papers all the time.  The Americans I've met are cool people, it's only the government which is so bloody intolerable to me.

And since when should England ever be criticizing Scottish cuisine?  HP sauce, marmite, shriveled up mushrooms for breakfast?  Away with it all... 

[G.W.K]

And since when should England ever be criticizing Scottish cuisine?  HP sauce, marmite, shriveled up mushrooms for breakfast?  Away with it all... 

Er...no one mentioned anything about "Scottish cuisine". Mind you, there is a surprising amount of English people who believe Haggis is an actual animal.

G.W.K

[queenrock]

Basically Scotland always seems to want to be independant from England, yet really they can't really handle things by themselves so they should just accept being part of the UK not Scotland.

[argerichfan]

Er...no one mentioned anything about "Scottish cuisine". Mind you, there is a surprising amount of English people who believe Haggis is an actual animal.

I was referring to the original mention of 'oats'.  

I've eaten haggis (at a nice restaurant in the shadow of Edinburgh Castle), but nah, you guys can have it!  

[G.W.K]

Basically Scotland always seems to want to be independant from England, yet really they can't really handle things by themselves so they should just accept being part of the UK not Scotland.

Yes, we do want independance from England because England are under the dilusion that they control everything. Scotland can handle things, our first minister is just a prat. We have different laws, education system, etc...all of these show our difference from England.

I've eaten haggis (at a nice restaurant in the shadow of Edinburgh Castle), but nah, you guys can have it!  

LOL...it is an acquired taste. Every female I've met hates it, are you female by any chance? 

G.W.K

[ahinton]

Seems to me there's more snipping between the English and French.  Still see it in the papers all the time.

There's a good deal more entente cordiale these days than used to be the case (or than was once thought to be the case); France is high on the list of many English people as not only their favourite holiday destination but the ideal place for a holiday home and quite a few English people have actually emigrated there (as indeed the present writer, though not English, will also do in the fullness of time). France does a great deal of trade with UK and vice versa. That said, in my own experience, the French often seem to prefer the Scots to the English...

And since when should England ever be criticizing Scottish cuisine?  HP sauce, marmite, shriveled up mushrooms for breakfast?  Away with it all... 

"Away" is certainly the best place for that! The Scottish diet has been shameful in the recent past, with an alarmingly high proportion of Scots suffering from ill health through bad diet; this is especially surprising, given the fine produce of that land and the number of distinguished chefs that originate there. I think and hope that matters are improving on that front, but not before it was about time.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Yes, we do want independance from England because England are under the dilusion that they control everything.

Pardon me, but not all Scots want independence from the UK (and it would be UK, not just England) and, in any case, such independence would seem rather redundant these days given that few even among those Scots who do favour independence for Scotland would also advocate Scotland's independence from the EC, so given that a Scotland that had severed ties with the remainder of UK would remain an EC member state just like the then depleted UK, at least some of the point of such independence would surely appear to be lost, would it not?

We have different laws, education system, etc...all of these show our difference from England.

Given that this is indeed true, does it not demonstrate that Scotland has - and always has had - some degree of independence from the remainder of the UK in any case? No Westminster government has, for that matter, ever forced Scotland to drop those differences in educational practice, law, etc. and instead adhere 100% to the laws that govern England.

LOL...it is an acquired taste.

And best acquired in small quantities accompanied by neeps and tatties and lubricated by means of a fine Scots single malt (again, in modest quantities); even then, it's not for everyone, but then nor is tripe, or goat's cheese, or beer, or (God help us all!) vegemite...

Best,

Alistair

[G.W.K]

"Away" is certainly the best place for that! The Scottish diet has been shameful in the recent past, with an alarmingly high proportion of Scots suffering from ill health through bad diet; this is especially surprising, given the fine produce of that land and the number of distinguished chefs that originate there. I think and hope that matters are improving on that front, but not before it was about time.

True, heart attacks and high blood pressure/cholesterol have been increasingly on the rise in Scotland with the cities being the worst for it (naturally). Being a Scot myself, I actually have quite a good diet, which I'm quite pleased about.

Distinguished chefs including Nick Nairn, are trying to target the health problems in Scotland and encourage Scots to become healthier, the schools being the main priority as this allows the children to develop a taste and habit for healthier foods.

G.W.K

[G.W.K]

Pardon me, but not all Scots want independence from the UK (and it would be UK, not just England)

I apologise, I was being stereotypical. I said England because another member mentioned England alone, and not the UK as a whole.

Given that this is indeed true, does it not demonstrate that Scotland has - and always has had - some degree of independence from the remainder of the UK in any case? No Westminster government has, for that matter, ever forced Scotland to drop those differences in educational practice, law, etc. and instead adhere 100% to the laws that govern England.

Westminister may have tried to force Scotland to become the same as England when it comes to laws, etc. However, we have not changed much...our laws, justice system, education system, etc still remains different.

Another thing ~ Many immigrants (and English among them) have been moving into Scotland in the recent years and this is on an uprise. Why? Our house prices are cheaper, our country is less crowded (until immigrants fill it up) and our justice system appears more...lienent with criminals. If Scotland does become independant, that could change. Although, England is also finding ways to rid the UK of illegal immigrants.

G.W.K

[retrouvailles]

Here's a question for all the Scots. How many of you can actually speak the Scots language? I am a bit of a linguistics buff and would like to know.

[G.W.K]

Here's a question for all the Scots. How many of you can actually speak the Scots language? I am a bit of a linguistics buff and would like to know.

I can speak Scottish Gaelic fluently.

G.W.K

[retrouvailles]

Scottish Gaelic and the Scots language are two different languages, but it is interesting to know that.

[richard black]

The 'enmity' (bit of a strong word, most of the time) between Scots and the English is the typical thing between neighbours. I mean, the English and French cordially detest and/or despise each other, ditto French and Germans, Germans and Poles, Poles and Russians.... not to mention Americans and Canadians.

Although it is certainly true that the Scots have plenty of cause to dislike the English, certainly if you allow a long memory. In the 19th century England behaved appallingly towards Scotland over the Clearances - basically threw thousands of long-established Scots families off the land they had tended for generations so that it could be used for grouse (etc.) hunting. Claims of exploitation of Scots by English in the 20th century are perhaps a little harder to justify, given the extent to which English money has also helped Scotland.

Regarding Gaelic, you're MUCH more likely to hear it spoken in the north-west than in the south-east. Around Aberdeen the local dialect is Doric, while in the lowlands (south, basically) the language is Scots, which is as I understand actually recognised as a real language although in most respects it's an English dialect. I have a quite large Scots dictionary. Oh, and Scots varies considerably across the width of Scotland, which isn't much measured in miles.

[G.W.K]

Scottish Gaelic and the Scots language are two different languages, but it is interesting to know that.

It may have escaped your knowledge...but the Scottish Gaelic is the only one spoken now. If you are referring to the old Ulster Scot's language, that the Picts spoke...that died out with the Picts. It is now a "dead language", like Latin.

G.W.K

[shortyshort]

I have nothing against scotland.
I even toured the place for my honeymoon.
And we had a great time.

But, If it's so great, why are most scotts living in England?

[G.W.K]

I have nothing against scotland.
I even toured the place for my honeymoon.
And we had a great time.

But, If it's so great, why are most scots living in England?

Our country is now full of English, Indian, Chinese, Polish and goodness knows how many other races. Since England is emptying, we're going there. Well, some of us. Eventually (in about 2100), there'll be a complete swap. Scots will be in England and vice versa, probably.

G.W.K

[shortyshort]

Samuel Johnson, for example, in his "Dictionary of the English Language"

https://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ipG_hEUWlhQ

[healdie]

It mainly dates away back centuries ago when the English attacked us (Scots) and then we beat them up.

Battle of Culloden 1746
Final score  50 Hanovarians (English) dead  to 1250 Scottish Rebels (with French support) dead
Decisive Hanovarian victory not much of a bloody nose for old England

But this type of rivalry is Apparent all over the World like Austria and Germany, USA and Canada

But as our friend F, Mendelssohn said "Scotland only brews whisky, fog and fowl weather"

[G.W.K]

Battle of Culloden 1746
Final score  50 Hanovarians (English) dead  to 1250 Scottish Rebels (with French support) dead
Decisive Hanovarian victory not much of a bloody nose for old England

But this type of rivalry is Apparent all over the World like Austria and Germany, USA and Canada

But as our friend F, Mendelssohn said "Scotland only brews whisky, fog and fowl weather"

I was referring to the more commonly known ones...such as Blàr Allt a' Bhonnaich (Battle of Bannockburn) and the likes of that.

G.W.K

[general disarray]

https://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ipG_hEUWlhQ

Omigod, this is hysterical!  Thanks!

[G.W.K]

Omigod, this is hysterical!  Thanks!

I take it you've never seen Blackadder before? Can I ask why you're interested in "Prejudice against Scotland" anyway?

G.W.K

[thalbergmad]

It mainly dates away back centuries ago when the English attacked us (Scots) and then we beat them up.

Well, if we went through a list of battles, the reverse was more often true.

The trouble with Scotland is that it is a beautiful Country that is mainly inhabited by drunken Neanderthals. Outside of the Cities, they are a little more sober, but many still live in mudhuts and are stuck in the 18th Century.

Many attempts over the Centuries have been made to civilise the population starting with the Romans, but they were the first to note that they were wasting their time. The English tried for many Centuries and still do by pouring millions of pounds of taxpayers money into their education system, but still the ungrateful gits are no better than simple peasants. During the 19th century, the English did manage to increase the average intelligence of the Scottish nation, by chucking the Scots off their lands and putting in sheep instead. Unfortunately, the Scots had a terrible effect on the sheep and to this day, the Scottish sheep are some of the thickest in the World.

Much of the Highlands and Islands are still infested with religion to the extent that they spend too much time in church and not enough time fishing or attending their crofts. Many Scots now rely heavily on the tourist industry where they take much pleasure by ripping off people with over inflated prices and out of date oatcakes.

So, i do believe there is prejudice against the Scots, but it is all justified.

Thal

[general disarray]

I take it you've never seen Blackadder before? Can I ask why you're interested in "Prejudice against Scotland" anyway?

G.W.K

a)  no, I've never seen Blackadder before and I need to play catch-up.  It's great!

b)  I just find the nature of "prejudice" to be a bit fascinating, being an American where racial prejudice is the seething monster always beneath the surface over here.  As for the prejudice against the Scots, well, it has baffled me.  I love your country, I love Miss Jean Brodie  , and I knew HRH Elizabeth II of England as well as her grandmother Victoria love and loved Scotland.  So, in an idle moment I was thinking of Dr. Johnson (I was a Brit Lit major) and I remembered that definition of "oats," and wondered:  hmmmm?  what's with this prejudice.  Even Dr. Johnson?  Beautiful country, lovely people . . . what gives?

That's all.  No mystery.  Ta da!

Sometimes, though, G.W.K., I think you regard me as a superficial, trashy American.  I'm not all that superficial, but I sure can be trashy. 

 

[G.W.K]

You have such a way with words Thal, such charm. You could give lucy a run for her money. LOL

I have lived in Scotland my whole life and I have yet to come across mudhuts. Sheep are generally stupid animals and Scotland is actually cheaper than England, so you're definately wrong there.

G.W.K

[G.W.K]

Beautiful country, lovely people . . . what gives?

People will contradict you there, because everyone here (including myself) can be stereotypical.

G.W.K

[thalbergmad]

Scotland is actually cheaper than England, so you're definately wrong there.

Not if you want to eat and buy petrol it aint

[G.W.K]

Not if you want to eat and buy petrol it aint

It's the same all over the UK, with the credit crunch stuff happenening. Anyway, petrol and food have just lowered in price.

G.W.K

[general disarray]

During the 19th century, the English did manage to increase the average intelligence of the Scottish nation, by chucking the Scots off their lands and putting in sheep instead. Unfortunately, the Scots had a terrible effect on the sheep and to this day, the Scottish sheep are some of the thickest in the World.

Many Scots now rely heavily on the tourist industry where they take much pleasure by ripping off people with over inflated prices and out of date oatcakes.

So, i do believe there is prejudice against the Scots, but it is all justified.

Thal

HAHA!  Priceless.  Thal, you're to the Scottish Tourist Bureau what Bush is to America.

[G.W.K]

HAHA!  Priceless.  Thal, you're to the Scottish Tourist Bureau what Bush is to America.

That's too far. I don't think Thal is a diabolical, war-seeking, stupid old fart. Unless he wants to be that is.

P.S. I could have said much worst, you know.

G.W.K

[shortyshort]

P.S. I could have said much worst, you know.

gwk

GO ON THEN. LOL 

[argerichfan]

LOL...it is an acquired taste. Every female I've met hates it, are you female by any chance?

Excuse me, the last I looked, I was male... and proud of it.  Very few females on this board anyway...

Don't much fancy The Church of Scotland.  (St. Mungo's in Glasgow- great pretender, religion in Scotland is 'too' reformed.)  We won't get into theological stuff, but by all means, St. Mary's Episcopal in Edinburgh carries on the great Anglo-Catholic tradition.  They have a terrific men and boys choir, and they celebrate an Evensong on Sunday afternoon which could rival the great English cathedrals, i.e. the famous over-the-top canticle setting which I heard (Blair in B minor) almost matched Durham.  That is high praise. 

Good on the Scots! 

[argerichfan]

France is high on the list of many English people as not only their favourite holiday destination but the ideal place for a holiday home and quite a few English people have actually emigrated there...

Alistair my good mate, point well taken, but surely you've read of the multitudinous disasters wherein Brits have bought property in France?  This is in the news all the time.  Money perhaps better spent in Florida or Colorado.

Well maybe it's my generation, but all my good mates always holiday in Spain.  They much prefer it, though one imagines buying property there deals with the same Byzantine red tape.  Whatever, my mum is getting married in January and she intends to honeymoon in Spain, anything to get away from glorious UK January weather.

Any recommendations, Alistair?  (Mum hasn't booked yet.) 

[pianochick93]

I like the Scots, they have cool accents. And David Tennant.....

[thalbergmad]

For anyone who has never met a Scot, this is what they are like...

https://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8k7VoFiagfs

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Here's a question for all the Scots. How many of you can actually speak the Scots language?

Gaelic is the main language spoken in parts of the Outer Hebrides.

It is a barbaric language which befits the people that speak it. Listening to someone talk in Gaelic is pretty much the same as listening to a cat trying to dislodge a furball.

If you want to try and speak it, i suggest you cut off a few of your pubes and put them at the top of your air passage. Then, drink about a gallon of Whisky and you are ready to start.

Thal

[retrouvailles]

Haha, I would love to hear someone speak it just for curiosity's sake. It can't be any worse than Welsh, anyways.

[thalbergmad]

With Welsh, you just need to double the amount of pubes.

Thal

[ahinton]

Alistair my good mate, point well taken, but surely you've read of the multitudinous disasters wherein Brits have bought property in France?  This is in the news all the time.

Yes, of coruse, but Brits have made these kinds of mistake everywhere, not just in France. The point is that so many Brits want to be there rather than in their own country, which surely illustrates that the enmity between the English and the French just isn't wahat once it was (or was thought to be).

Money perhaps better spent in Florida or Colorado.

WHat? On property that might end up being worth less than nothing?

Well maybe it's my generation, but all my good mates always holiday in Spain.  They much prefer it, though one imagines buying property there deals with the same Byzantine red tape.  Whatever, my mum is getting married in January and she intends to honeymoon in Spain, anything to get away from glorious UK January weather.

Any recommendations, Alistair?  (Mum hasn't booked yet.) 

The only part of Spain that I really know reasonably well is Catalunya. Gerona is wonderful, Barcelona well worth a visit and the top end of the Costa Brava is far from all disgusting as it is often painted to be; get only a short distance from the coast itself and there is much to enjoy.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

The point is that so many Brits want to be there rather than in their own country

That is because the pond life of the World wants to be in ours.

Thal

[healdie]

Gaelic is the main language spoken in parts of the Outer Hebrides.

It is a barbaric language which befits the people that speak it. Listening to someone talk in Gaelic is pretty much the same as listening to a cat trying to dislodge a furball.


Thal

"it sounds like typewriters eating tin foil been thrown down some stairs" D. Moran

Accutally he said this about the German language but i think it is more appropiate here

[cmg]

For anyone who has never met a Scot, this is what they are like...

https://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8k7VoFiagfs

Thal

I hope you Brits know how truly free you are.  If we took a comedic shot, like this one, at a "disadvantaged" person in the US we'd be charged with a "hate crime."

I'm moving to England.

[thalbergmad]

We are not that free.

We cannot make jokes about blacks, gays or muslims. We would get 10 years in prison for that.

Scots, Welsh, Irish are still permitted but sometimes frowned upon.

Thal

[richard black]

The trouble with Scotland is that it is a beautiful Country that is mainly inhabited by drunken Neanderthals. Outside of the Cities, they are a little more sober, but many still live in mudhuts and are stuck in the 18th Century.

Of course, if you ask a Glaswegian or Edinburgher, they will tell you that the inhabitants of the Highlands and Islands are all drunken Neanderthals etc. etc. Much like we Inner Londoners say about the inhabitants of, say, North Kent.

 

[thalbergmad]

Indeed, my part of the Country has gone downhill rapidly.

The Labour Party's brilliant idea to open pubs all day has not helped. We are also the dumping ground for Albanian pimps.

Thal